Episode 297: No Pleasure in Meanness (Flannery O'Connor's "A Good Man is Hard to Find")

[00:00:00] Very Bad Wizards is a podcast with a philosopher, my dad, and psychologist Dave Pizarro having an informal discussion about issues in science and ethics. Please note that the discussion contains bad words that I'm not allowed to say and knowing my dad some very inappropriate jokes.

[00:00:17] I'm a die. I want people to think that I'm this. I'm great. No, we're nothing. We're just dead. We're dust. We're absolutely nothing. Our legacy is nothing.

[00:01:14] Very Bad Wizards.

[00:01:15] Welcome to Very Bad Wizards. I'm Tamler Sommers from the University of Houston. Dave, everyone I know on Twitter seems to be moving to blue sky.

[00:01:23] Isn't it just ageism to expect people like us to know how to do that? Start all over on some other app?

[00:01:31] Probably. Probably. Wait, have you? Do you have an account?

[00:01:35] I do. Yeah. But it's just like, I don't know. Like, I haven't followed a lot of people. I don't think I have a lot of followers. I haven't gone there in a while.

[00:01:43] It is. You feel it. You do. I know what you're saying. You feel it in your bones. Like, the older you get, like, the harder it is to change something.

[00:01:50] Yeah, like that? It's like, well, you did it for Twitter. It's like, yeah, but that was a long time ago. I don't remember how I did that.

[00:01:58] Totally. Totally. There are apparently these things where you can port over your, like, look at how many of your Twitter followers are on blue sky.

[00:02:05] I know. But then you just feel like, am I really going to do that? Am I going to Google how to, like, follow the same people on blue sky, like, and, like, go through all just to get on this other thing?

[00:02:17] I think that the kind of ugly truth for me is that one of the reasons I am on Twitter is for the ugliness.

[00:02:22] It's not something I like to admit to myself because it does make me miserable and I've substantially cut out lots of Twitter from my life.

[00:02:29] But when I go on, I do want to see just, like, shit talking. And there's, like, I know you follow sports stuff. I follow some sports stuff and some rap stuff.

[00:02:38] And, like, there's just those people are on blue sky. Like, on blue sky, I'll go to get, like, the new article alert. We just published it.

[00:02:48] And we're all center left.

[00:02:51] Yeah, right.

[00:02:51] Even some of the sports people that I follow have at least, I don't know if they're really going to do it, but, like, they say they're going to go to the other place.

[00:02:59] It's also creepy how everyone, and a little bit, I don't know, almost self-important to call it the other place.

[00:03:06] Like, you're going to get censored. Like, Elon's going to censor your tweet if you say blue sky.

[00:03:11] Right.

[00:03:12] That's a pet peeve of mine.

[00:03:14] I think, by the way, we should call it blue sky.

[00:03:16] Like your Polish alcoholic friend.

[00:03:20] Yeah.

[00:03:21] They call him blue sky.

[00:03:24] All right.

[00:03:25] So today we are going to talk about Flannery O'Connor's short story.

[00:03:30] This is a first for us.

[00:03:31] We've never done a Flannery O'Connor short story.

[00:03:33] No.

[00:03:34] Called A Good Man is Hard to Find.

[00:03:37] Something our listeners have asked us.

[00:03:39] It might have even been a finalist for a Patreon listener-selected episode.

[00:03:44] It might have been, yeah.

[00:03:45] Yeah.

[00:03:45] Yeah.

[00:03:46] The closest we got was we did Burning, which was based on Flannery O'Connor's.

[00:03:51] No, Faulkner's.

[00:03:53] Oh, it was?

[00:03:54] Oh, it was.

[00:03:56] You have to edit that out unless you want to, like, actually mock me.

[00:03:59] You have to.

[00:04:00] I love that you said that kind of.

[00:04:01] You were a little, like, smugly a little bit, you know.

[00:04:04] And we actually.

[00:04:06] Are they at least both Irish or did I make your Deadwood error?

[00:04:10] Well, I don't think that's an error, by the way.

[00:04:13] I think those guys were Irish.

[00:04:15] So.

[00:04:17] But we'll never know.

[00:04:18] Yeah.

[00:04:19] We'll never.

[00:04:21] Anyway, so that's what we're going to do in the second segment.

[00:04:24] I think you like that story, right?

[00:04:26] Yes.

[00:04:26] It's great.

[00:04:26] Yes.

[00:04:27] That's great.

[00:04:27] I'm excited to talk about it.

[00:04:29] You and I haven't shared hardly anything about what we think of it.

[00:04:32] But first, David, in my 2018 book, Why Honor Matters, I argued famously against wearing bicycle helmets.

[00:04:42] Yes.

[00:04:43] And it was, you know, a compelling, ultimately decisive argument.

[00:04:47] Like, I won.

[00:04:48] But it was moral in nature.

[00:04:51] It was normative.

[00:04:52] And now I have just ironclad empirical data to support that view.

[00:04:59] With this new paper, The Effect of Safety Attire on Perceptions of Cyclist Dehumanization.

[00:05:07] And it's by Mark Lim and Sarah Collier.

[00:05:11] Yeah.

[00:05:12] Australians, I'm sure this has turned you over to the side of favoring.

[00:05:15] I love Australia and all its people stand for.

[00:05:21] Yeah.

[00:05:22] This was, I think, suggested.

[00:05:23] I forget where, but it might have been Reddit.

[00:05:25] There's a couple of listeners on email and Twitter that I saw.

[00:05:29] Maybe Reddit, too.

[00:05:30] Yeah.

[00:05:30] So, you know, I think because it's a perfect example of, like, measurement issues, like generalizability questions.

[00:05:37] A lot of the stuff that I've been and we've both been complaining about for the last 10, 12 years.

[00:05:42] But you're wrong.

[00:05:43] It is actually only because they know about your take on bicycle helmets, as you say.

[00:05:47] Yeah, that's true.

[00:05:48] That is actually the main reason, people.

[00:05:51] Maybe a little bit the dehumanization stuff, but mostly.

[00:05:54] But, like, I think it has all those issues of, like, measurement, which we'll definitely talk about, you know, generalizability, external validity, all that.

[00:06:04] But it's also just completely bonkers, this paper.

[00:06:07] Like, it seems surreal.

[00:06:09] It's the sideways music, I think, of a, like, psychology paper.

[00:06:13] Right.

[00:06:14] I was going to say, like, getting into, like, real issues about measurement and validity is just, like, going one step too far from what this paper deserves.

[00:06:24] No, that's right.

[00:06:25] You wouldn't even know where to begin to assess that.

[00:06:28] It is in, by the way, a journal that I've never heard of, but I love the title.

[00:06:32] Transportation Research Part F, Colon, Psychology and Behavior.

[00:06:37] So I guess there's a transportation research journal that has at least A through F parts.

[00:06:43] Yeah.

[00:06:44] And Part F is Psychology and Behavior.

[00:06:46] Nice.

[00:06:46] Yeah.

[00:06:47] Maybe there's philosophy.

[00:06:48] Like, what would the other things be?

[00:06:52] Sociology, physical science, engineering.

[00:06:54] Poetry.

[00:06:54] That's a bit of a dance.

[00:06:58] So this paper is trying to get to the bottom of why people hit cyclists so often.

[00:07:04] And it tests a hypothesis that when people see bicyclists wearing helmets, the impulse is to dehumanize the cyclist.

[00:07:15] But they predict, by the way.

[00:07:17] Yes.

[00:07:18] Because that's not even what they find, but yeah.

[00:07:20] Right.

[00:07:20] That's the prediction, right?

[00:07:23] And I guess the implication is I'm trying to figure out just what the mechanism in their mind is.

[00:07:30] But you see a cyclist with a helmet and you dehumanize them and that just makes you more apt to run them over.

[00:07:40] Yeah.

[00:07:40] Yeah.

[00:07:40] Or throw stuff at them.

[00:07:42] As they say, 15% of cyclists report that they've had some shit thrown at them.

[00:07:46] Well, one thing that's undeniably true is like the true cyclist is one of the most annoying people, like subgroups that we have.

[00:07:55] I don't know about in Europe.

[00:07:57] I would imagine they're a little more chill in Europe.

[00:07:59] But in America, that kind of cyclist who kind of rides in the middle of the road because they're like, I'm just like a car, you know, even though it's a wide enough road that they could just move over.

[00:08:10] Like, I don't mean they deserve to be hit by cars, but that is just something that might make people at least throw things at them.

[00:08:18] Like I said, I think this is like there's some parts where I'm really like not believing or understanding what I'm reading.

[00:08:25] And it's a lot of it is just in the setup.

[00:08:27] Right.

[00:08:28] So like they're trying to define dehumanization, which is a big topic in itself, like a great example of a concept or a construct that you definitely need a sense of what you're talking about here.

[00:08:41] Like, so here's what they say.

[00:08:43] To dehumanize is to deny a person or group their full humanity.

[00:08:48] You know, not that substantive.

[00:08:52] But then dehumanization involves the denial of higher order traits, including self-control, intelligence, rationality, morality, and or the denial of attributes of human nature, such as complex emotions and individuality that differentiate humans from animals and inanimate objects.

[00:09:11] Okay.

[00:09:11] That gives a slightly better understanding of, you know, like what it might mean to dehumanize.

[00:09:17] But then given that that's how they're describing dehumanization, like that's the thing that we're doing to cyclists.

[00:09:25] Like we're denying them higher order traits such as self-control, intelligence, you know.

[00:09:30] Okay.

[00:09:31] But just keep that.

[00:09:31] The other thing they say, which I thought of, this is hilarious.

[00:09:34] Dehumanization has been found to introduce a range of cognitive biases that contribute to the propensity to commit violence and aggression.

[00:09:44] But I like that, you know, when you dehumanize someone, like, you know, you might commit the base rate fallacy.

[00:09:49] Right.

[00:09:50] What's really bad about dehumanization is that it leads to some cognitive biases.

[00:09:55] Yeah.

[00:09:56] Del Bosque et al., 2019, that's a big influence on this paper, have undertaken the first study that links dehumanization and aggressive driving behavior towards cyclists.

[00:10:07] While it had been previously determined that negative views about cyclists are related to more aggressive and dangerous driving, the link to dehumanization is an important finding that contributes to explanations of why some motorists commit this violent and aggressive behavior.

[00:10:23] If dehumanization is a key driver of motorists' aggression towards cyclists, it may be possible to reduce such aggression through approaches that attempt to rehumanize cyclists.

[00:10:34] I mean, this is insane.

[00:10:36] This is – it's like we just need to rehumanize the dehumanized cyclists and everything will be fine.

[00:10:43] Lower traffic fatalities for cyclists by just, like, putting googly eyes on their vests in back so that people –

[00:10:51] I have complex feelings.

[00:10:55] Mitigate.

[00:10:55] There.

[00:10:56] No more base rate fallacy for you.

[00:10:58] I have theory of mind.

[00:11:00] But then I love this sentence.

[00:11:02] Little is currently known about why cyclists are considered less than fully human.

[00:11:07] This is just like – all of a sudden it's already established that cyclists are considered less than fully human.

[00:11:13] So now we just need to figure out why, right?

[00:11:16] However, Del Bosque et al have suggested that it may be due to cyclists being considered as others partly based on their attire.

[00:11:24] I mean, this is so funny.

[00:11:26] It's so absurd.

[00:11:28] It's absurd.

[00:11:29] That's the perfect word for it.

[00:11:30] It's absurd.

[00:11:30] It's, like, absolutely absurd.

[00:11:31] And then they go on to talk about – well, you know how, like, Lycra – you know how – you're basically –

[00:11:38] You know what's crazy is that the concept of dehumanization as, you know, originally intended is supposed to do things like try to understand how, you know, like the Holocaust happened.

[00:11:49] Right.

[00:11:49] Like, you know, how people view Palestinians in Gaza.

[00:11:53] Yeah, yeah, right.

[00:11:54] That's right.

[00:11:55] And now we're talking about, like, cyclists' attire, you know.

[00:11:59] And it's just like this is not the same thing.

[00:12:01] And it's not just a spectrum.

[00:12:03] These are two – I mean, that's what I think.

[00:12:05] There's so much in this paper that I want to, like, it's not worth all that time.

[00:12:10] But do you agree just with the dehumanization of, like, that word, you know, based on how they were talking about it earlier, it only overlaps because it's the same word with the same syllables.

[00:12:21] But we're talking about two different things when we're talking about, you know, how you dehumanize victims of a genocide and, like, oh, that fucking annoying biker.

[00:12:30] No, and one of the key things that they talk about in terms of the aggressiveness of drivers is passing too close to the cyclist.

[00:12:39] So this is going to explain, like, the six-inch difference in how close motorists, like, drive by.

[00:12:46] And that's because they're dehumanized.

[00:12:47] Because they're no longer human.

[00:12:48] They're vermin.

[00:12:49] Which is ridiculous because if it was a deer that was running alongside of it, you wouldn't be like, oh, that's not human.

[00:12:55] I'm going to veer into it and kill it.

[00:12:58] No, I know.

[00:12:59] That's a very good point.

[00:13:00] One of my students has been writing this sort of screed against this stuff.

[00:13:06] And it's like, even in the times when it's used in, like, what feels more appropriate, like victims of genocide, it's still, I think, not a great term or concept to explain what's going on.

[00:13:17] But part of it is that, like, there are so many examples of us caring and treating non-humans in loving and caring ways.

[00:13:23] Like, it's not enough to not perceive something as human.

[00:13:26] Like, there's something more going on.

[00:13:28] The other problem I have with just the general concept, one of the problems is, it's trying to explain how people could do such, like, horrible things to each other.

[00:13:36] And it assumes that the default of humans treating other humans, like, if I view you as human, that I will be good to you.

[00:13:43] Right.

[00:13:43] And that something must be turned off in me if I'm capable of doing this to you.

[00:13:47] But that's just obviously not true.

[00:13:49] Like, there are full human beings that we just, like, we murder each other because we're, like, angry with each other.

[00:13:54] And we're not, like, going around having to classify people as animals in order to do terrible things to them.

[00:14:01] Yeah.

[00:14:02] In order to just not kill them or not try to randomly hurt them, even, you know, though that's going to be a huge hassle that could land us in jail, in prison, or, like, paying a huge lawsuit.

[00:14:15] But it was worth it because, yeah.

[00:14:17] So this is the problem with the whole literature, I think, is what you're highlighting.

[00:14:21] Yes.

[00:14:22] But then this is so great.

[00:14:24] It's like you say, cyclists are considered as non-mainstream fringe individuals, partly due to, quote, alienation induced by specialized riding attire such as Lycra, Daily and Ristle, 2011.

[00:14:39] This is chef's kiss.

[00:14:42] Yes.

[00:14:42] So they say that, well, maybe part of the cyclist appearance, like them wearing specialized gear, it might be that people are assuming something about their skill level.

[00:14:51] Right.

[00:14:52] That's what I always thought.

[00:14:53] Right.

[00:14:54] So if, like, I'm driving a little closer to you because you're wearing, like, gear, maybe I just think that you're not going to be spooked.

[00:15:00] You know what you're doing.

[00:15:01] Like, you're not going to, like, you see someone without a helmet, you don't know what their level of riding is.

[00:15:06] Exactly.

[00:15:06] Yeah.

[00:15:07] They're Sunday cyclists.

[00:15:08] Yeah.

[00:15:08] So they say, however, when tested in a subsequent study designed to assess motorist reaction to perceived skill level based on categorization of cyclist types, no association with cyclists' appearance was found.

[00:15:18] What was found, however, were changes based on subtle differences in cyclist appearance, such as changes between the words police or polite printed on a high visibility vest.

[00:15:30] What?

[00:15:31] What was this study?

[00:15:32] So what?

[00:15:33] What was this study?

[00:15:34] That's what I want to know.

[00:15:35] Like, it has to be that they sent out people in bicycles.

[00:15:38] Yeah.

[00:15:39] Wearing a vest that either said police.

[00:15:42] Right.

[00:15:43] Or said polite.

[00:15:44] And they frame it as this some sort of, like, subtle priming.

[00:15:47] Yeah.

[00:15:47] But, like, how different would you treat somebody who you think is a police officer?

[00:15:55] Yeah.

[00:15:55] It's not that polite.

[00:15:57] It's like, oh, look, we changed only one letter.

[00:15:59] Did they have just some, like, measurement coding system?

[00:16:02] Who measured how close the driver?

[00:16:05] Or is this just done in the lab?

[00:16:07] It's like, probably you're doing-

[00:16:08] It's a video game.

[00:16:09] Yeah, probably it was some video game.

[00:16:10] Right.

[00:16:11] So they're curious about testing out whether dehumanization is happening when people wear

[00:16:16] three kinds of attire and a control.

[00:16:18] So nothing on, no difference on their head.

[00:16:21] A baseball cap, which is not cycling attire, but it hides hair, which might be-

[00:16:27] They have to rule out an alternate explanation.

[00:16:29] Right.

[00:16:29] Exactly.

[00:16:29] A standard bicycle helmet, and then just a high visibility vest with no helmet.

[00:16:35] Right.

[00:16:35] That's to isolate people who, like, maybe it's just that they're visible or something.

[00:16:40] Like whether it's just that they're just wearing gear or specifically gear that obscures your

[00:16:45] head.

[00:16:46] So the method was that they showed everybody pairs of images and asked them, this bothers

[00:16:53] me so much.

[00:16:54] So two pictures side by side.

[00:16:57] One like a normal, like, no special gear on.

[00:17:01] Another one, say, with a cycling helmet on.

[00:17:03] And they're asked, which of these two is less human?

[00:17:06] So like, they're forcing you to make some sort of judgment.

[00:17:10] Like, they're both human.

[00:17:12] Like, what the fuck are you talking about?

[00:17:13] There's no option to just be like, they're the same.

[00:17:16] There's just zero option to be.

[00:17:18] Also, that's just like, what are you talking-

[00:17:20] Like, imagine being a participant in this study.

[00:17:22] Like, who seems less human?

[00:17:23] I mean, like, what do you mean by human?

[00:17:25] Like, I know.

[00:17:26] I can see them.

[00:17:26] They're people.

[00:17:27] They're homo sapiens.

[00:17:29] Like, what are you talking about?

[00:17:30] Like, it's just-

[00:17:31] It's a crazy question to ask somebody.

[00:17:34] Yeah, it's a-

[00:17:35] So there's that task.

[00:17:37] So they're getting a bunch of pair ratings.

[00:17:40] Male, female, vest, cap, nothing, or helmet.

[00:17:43] And by the way, the helmet doesn't like-

[00:17:46] All it covers is the hair.

[00:17:47] Like, there's no-

[00:17:48] You can see their eyes and their face.

[00:17:50] Like, that's-

[00:17:51] It's like not even covering all of their hair.

[00:17:52] So it's not-

[00:17:53] But it turns them into an insect, so-

[00:17:56] Yeah.

[00:17:57] Which brings me to the second measure of dehumanization.

[00:18:00] This is hilarious.

[00:18:00] There's this-

[00:18:02] A variation on this very commonly used but terrible scale called the Descent of Man scale

[00:18:07] that shows that, like, typical sort of, like, ape to human evolution steps.

[00:18:13] Like, five steps.

[00:18:13] Where, like, the penultimate one is, like, presumably some sort of, you know-

[00:18:17] Neanderthal.

[00:18:18] Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, or, like, pre-erectus kind of guy.

[00:18:21] But this version is the insectoid scale.

[00:18:25] And we gotta put-

[00:18:26] We gotta figure out a way to put this picture.

[00:18:28] Yeah.

[00:18:28] I'll try to make it the chapter art, actually.

[00:18:30] Yeah, okay.

[00:18:30] That's good.

[00:18:31] So if you like it.

[00:18:31] Yeah.

[00:18:32] Because at least the Descent of Man, or the Ascent of Man scale, at least it's based on,

[00:18:38] like, whatever our views of evolution are.

[00:18:40] This one is, I texted you, just the fucking Gregor Samsa, like the Kafka version, where

[00:18:45] on the very left is just, like, a cockroach.

[00:18:49] And then on the very right is, like, a-

[00:18:51] A normal human.

[00:18:52] Yeah, ideal, ideal upright man.

[00:18:54] And then in between is just some sort of body horror, like, what?

[00:18:58] Yeah, like, the fly, you know, the movie The Fly.

[00:19:01] Yeah.

[00:19:02] And also, like, a little kangaroo, like, kind of looks like a kangaroo, too.

[00:19:06] Totally.

[00:19:07] Kangaroo with cricket legs.

[00:19:09] With cricket legs.

[00:19:09] And then the penultimate one looks like an alien.

[00:19:12] An alien, or, like, a really old, stooped person.

[00:19:15] Yeah.

[00:19:16] But also an alien.

[00:19:17] The shape of the head is very alien.

[00:19:19] And their feet look like Pan, the goddess of the woods, like, the god of the woods, you

[00:19:23] know?

[00:19:24] Yeah, exactly.

[00:19:26] And so you're supposed to, on a slider scale, say, like, how human, like, whatever on the

[00:19:32] scale.

[00:19:33] Pick this, yeah, where you think this person is.

[00:19:36] Again, it's like, well, what do you mean?

[00:19:39] What does it mean to be, like, that middle metaphor?

[00:19:43] That's such meta.

[00:19:43] It's such meta.

[00:19:45] He looks like Jeff Goldblum.

[00:19:48] Not when it's totally a fly, but, like, almost entirely a fly.

[00:19:52] At minute 40 of the movie, not at minute 90.

[00:19:55] What could that possibly mean?

[00:19:57] And then I love how, like, it's a sliding scale, because obviously precision matters

[00:20:01] here.

[00:20:02] You know, you don't want to just get the five points.

[00:20:04] No, no.

[00:20:05] No, that's right.

[00:20:06] Like, the difference between, you know, 85 and 75 is huge.

[00:20:12] Or 85 and 80 could turn you from an alien into an alien-human hybrid.

[00:20:18] But you talk about all these scales as if they've gone through rigorous construct validation.

[00:20:24] Yeah.

[00:20:24] But I would love to know.

[00:20:26] Like, have they tried to validate this?

[00:20:28] Is this real?

[00:20:30] I get the DeBosk used it, but...

[00:20:33] Yeah.

[00:20:33] The insectoid scale apparently has been a few times, but honestly, the Ascent of Man scale

[00:20:38] is something that, like, you should do a deep dive on.

[00:20:41] Because, as you were saying, the dehumanization literature has exploded in, like, whatever

[00:20:46] the past 10, 15 years.

[00:20:48] Okay.

[00:20:48] The question then is, is this really capturing how dehumanized people are viewing other people?

[00:20:56] I mean, like, how would you capture that?

[00:20:58] Again, because, like, maybe one of the questions is, do you find this person less human than

[00:21:04] that person?

[00:21:05] And it's like, oh, that's the same one he said that, like, he only gave a 72 or something

[00:21:10] like that, which shows that the scales kind of correlate in some way.

[00:21:13] But they're completely absurd, just, like, questions only a lunatic would ask you.

[00:21:20] Like, again, it's a cyclist.

[00:21:22] They see that they're human.

[00:21:24] Whoever is answering that has to import some metaphor, you know, like, of their own into

[00:21:29] trying to even interpret, like, understand what that means.

[00:21:33] Yeah.

[00:21:33] Right.

[00:21:34] They might have completely different metaphors for, like, in their mind.

[00:21:37] Because it's literally, like, it's a nonsensical question.

[00:21:42] That's why they like these Ascent of Man scales, because they can then say, like, okay, if I say

[00:21:46] you're a little less, whatever, rational, then that's kind of dehumanizing, which is just like,

[00:21:52] well, why?

[00:21:53] Why not just say they're a little less rational?

[00:21:55] But then they're like, but when we use this, like, Ascent of Man scale, then if you circle,

[00:21:59] like, fucking, you know, ape boy, then, like, you are actually believing that they're not

[00:22:05] human beings.

[00:22:06] And it's like, what am I supposed to do?

[00:22:08] You think that they're a cross between, like, a kangaroo and, like, a cricket head sex.

[00:22:15] Yeah.

[00:22:16] I think that, to answer your question specifically with my opinion about, like, how you would

[00:22:20] validate this, is that, like, the concept is actually so ill-formed from the get-go.

[00:22:25] And actually, I think that, like, there's nothing to validate it toward, I think.

[00:22:29] Like, it's actually, I think it's this weird metaphor that has gained, that is not actually

[00:22:33] something we're perceptually doing.

[00:22:35] Like, I think it's just like, yeah, we all understand that if I want to make you sound

[00:22:39] greedy, I call you a pig or disloyal, I call you a rat.

[00:22:42] And if you're calling that dehumanization, do you also say, if I say, like, well, Tamler

[00:22:48] has a gruff exterior, but he's a puppy at heart.

[00:22:50] Are you like, wow, stop dehumanizing Tamler?

[00:22:52] Because that's the same thing.

[00:22:54] And, like, if you're trying to validate some scale based on a concept of dehumanization

[00:22:58] that can't tell apart, like, such a basic difference, then what are you doing?

[00:23:02] Like, this-

[00:23:03] Yeah, no.

[00:23:03] That's right.

[00:23:04] There's nothing to validate it against.

[00:23:06] Certainly not in this context, right?

[00:23:08] Like, you know-

[00:23:09] Like you said, these are well-lit photos where you see their eyes.

[00:23:12] Like, they're, like, they're just staring right at you.

[00:23:16] They're, like, obviously just straightforward white Australian people.

[00:23:20] Like, there's not even a hint at, like, making them look nefarious to other Australians.

[00:23:25] Right.

[00:23:25] Like, these are, like-

[00:23:26] Yeah.

[00:23:27] So, like a lot of these just absolutely ridiculous, just nonsensical studies, then they always

[00:23:33] have, like, okay, the image comparison component of the survey was analyzed using a Bradley-Terry

[00:23:39] probability model.

[00:23:41] And then he also said, we also attempted to reproduce some of the associations between

[00:23:45] aggressive driving behavior and blatant dehumanization scores reported by Del Bosque

[00:23:50] using negative binomial regression.

[00:23:53] Complex math can't save you here.

[00:23:55] And then the main finding that they were trying to test the hypothesis that, okay, if I obscure

[00:24:03] parts of your head or face, maybe I'm less likely to humanize you because the face is such a strong

[00:24:07] cue of being human or whatever.

[00:24:09] They don't even find that.

[00:24:10] They actually find that the most dehumanized by their measure are people wearing a vest.

[00:24:16] Did you see this?

[00:24:17] No.

[00:24:18] That's the strongest result.

[00:24:19] The men and the women wearing those day-glo vests were actually the most dehumanized.

[00:24:26] That's right.

[00:24:26] I did see it.

[00:24:26] Yeah.

[00:24:27] Okay.

[00:24:27] So, let's read this because it's also funny, the whole thing, and it has exactly what you're

[00:24:30] talking about.

[00:24:31] Our study found support for the hypothesis that people wearing bicycle helmets are perceived

[00:24:35] as less human compared to people without helmets.

[00:24:39] However, it did not support suggestions that dehumanization of cyclists is due to helmets

[00:24:43] obscuring hair and facial features.

[00:24:45] The current study found whilst obscuring a similar amount of hair and facial features,

[00:24:52] cyclists wearing caps were perceived as more human than those wearing helmets.

[00:24:56] Conversely, cyclists without helmets but wearing high visibility vests were more likely to be

[00:25:01] perceived as less human compared to all other attire types tested.

[00:25:05] There it is.

[00:25:05] You're right.

[00:25:06] If this doesn't argue about how a poor, non-valid measure of a construct this is, then I don't

[00:25:14] know what does.

[00:25:16] There are people who try to do these validity studies, but you need to take into account,

[00:25:20] if you're doing some sort of analysis of whether a measure is tapping into this construct,

[00:25:26] the fact that these judgments of paired cyclists where you say human or not human, actually,

[00:25:32] you got the result that vests make them seem less human, contrary to everything that the

[00:25:37] dehumanization literature predicts that you thought going into it, that like are accused by you,

[00:25:41] then what the, like, all it can possibly say is that this is clearly not a measure of what

[00:25:46] you think it is.

[00:25:46] Or it could say, oh, you know, yeah, our hypothesis that helmets, it did, it was supported, but

[00:25:53] not as much as vests were is, well, like, that's another thing we have to tell cyclists not

[00:25:59] to wear, you know, like we thought it was just the helmets, but it's actually the vests.

[00:26:04] I love, it says, these limitations, maybe like what you're talking about, should be kept in

[00:26:09] mind when considering the policy implications of this study.

[00:26:13] It's just the idea that this would have policy implications.

[00:26:17] Yeah.

[00:26:17] Dear congressperson, I know you're reading this.

[00:26:19] And then, of course, the use of brain imaging methods may be of value here.

[00:26:24] Should the dehumanization of cyclists be the result of implicit biases that are difficult

[00:26:29] to identify using traditional forms of history?

[00:26:32] It's just all the hits.

[00:26:36] That's so funny.

[00:26:38] It feels like a hoax.

[00:26:40] Cyclists maybe should power pose before they cycle.

[00:26:44] Further research will determine.

[00:26:46] If this were an undergrad, like, honors thesis, I would be upset.

[00:26:51] You can't graduate.

[00:26:55] Oh, by the way, included in that picture set, just as a sort of like exploratory thing.

[00:27:03] Yeah.

[00:27:03] They tossed in a couple of stock photos of cyclists wearing lycra.

[00:27:07] Yeah.

[00:27:09] And the helmets and the sunglasses.

[00:27:10] And those, like, by far get the worst ratings.

[00:27:14] Just because the guy looks like a douche, I think.

[00:27:16] Yeah, totally.

[00:27:17] He does.

[00:27:17] He looks like Dutch.

[00:27:20] Like he's just about to insult you.

[00:27:23] Yeah, the lycra blue.

[00:27:25] These guys also at the bottom.

[00:27:27] That's what I'm talking about.

[00:27:27] I mean, they are less than human.

[00:27:29] So, yeah.

[00:27:30] They're wearing, like, the wraparound sunglasses.

[00:27:33] You know that they're, like, lecturing motorists for all, like, they spend, like, at least 20% of their day.

[00:27:41] And they lecture me.

[00:27:42] Not anymore.

[00:27:43] This doesn't happen anymore.

[00:27:44] But they used to about not wearing a helmet.

[00:27:47] Do, have you ever had something thrown at you as a cyclist?

[00:27:50] No.

[00:27:50] I found people are, have been overall pretty nice.

[00:27:54] I mean, there have been, like, there was one time where someone, like, actually almost hit me or, like, opened their door right as I was coming.

[00:28:01] But they were so apologetic.

[00:28:02] You know, like, nobody, nobody is trying to do this.

[00:28:05] Like, that's not what's going on here.

[00:28:07] Maybe shit is just bad in Australia.

[00:28:09] Yeah.

[00:28:10] Yeah.

[00:28:10] You know, I'm not going to, like I said before, it's not worth making nuanced methodological complaints about this, given the absurdity of it.

[00:28:19] But, you know, you want to toss in a control group where they're just wearing something weird.

[00:28:23] Yeah.

[00:28:24] You know, you would just want, like, something that people don't normally wear just to see if it's just like they're wearing something I don't see all the time.

[00:28:31] Yeah.

[00:28:32] And, you know, this may seem nitpicky, but I don't know if the Bradley Terry probability model was appropriate.

[00:28:38] It's very confusingly reported, by the way, too.

[00:28:41] Like, did you see these, like, columns?

[00:28:43] They have the figure of, like, a whole bunch of these three-digit numbers, which are number of respondents who chose one versus the other.

[00:28:52] I've never seen data reported this way.

[00:28:53] It's just like a, it's just a bunch of these three-digit numbers.

[00:28:56] And you're supposed to, like, interpret it somehow.

[00:28:58] Yeah.

[00:28:58] It's, like you said, one of these things where if you toss enough sort of, like, numbers our way, we're still going to realize.

[00:29:06] It just mystifies it.

[00:29:07] Right.

[00:29:08] But it can't mystify this.

[00:29:10] You know, it can mystify a lot.

[00:29:12] And I guess it mystified the journal editors.

[00:29:16] But, you know, part F, psychology and behavior.

[00:29:19] They need to shape up.

[00:29:21] Estimate of worth parameters.

[00:29:23] Like, just so ridiculous.

[00:29:27] Well, sorry.

[00:29:28] Hopefully they don't hear this, Mark Lim and Sarah Collier.

[00:29:33] Yeah.

[00:29:33] Sorry.

[00:29:33] But if you do, I like you as a person.

[00:29:36] I don't dehumanize you at all.

[00:29:37] No.

[00:29:38] As long as you're not one of those douchey bikers, cyclists.

[00:29:41] Even if you're wearing a safety vest.

[00:29:43] Yeah.

[00:29:44] Oh, maybe the safety vest people are dehumanized because those are, like, the stuff that cons wear on the side of the road.

[00:29:50] Oh, maybe.

[00:29:51] Yeah.

[00:29:51] There you go.

[00:29:52] There it is.

[00:29:52] Yeah.

[00:29:53] Or it reminds them of, like, hall monitors, you know, like back in elementary schools.

[00:29:59] Those were vermin.

[00:29:59] Yeah.

[00:30:00] They should all die.

[00:30:01] Yeah.

[00:30:01] Kill them all.

[00:30:02] Run them down.

[00:30:04] All right.

[00:30:04] Speaking of killing, we'll be right back to talk about A Good Man is Hard to Find.

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[00:34:44] Let's get to Flannery O'Connor.

[00:34:47] All right, let's get to a discussion of Flannery O'Connor's A Good Man is Hard to Find.

[00:34:53] This was the first in title story in a collection of short stories by that same title.

[00:34:59] She is a writer I don't know too much about.

[00:35:04] Like, I have read this story before because it was recommended to me by a lot of people.

[00:35:09] I think I've read maybe one or two other short stories by her, and that's it.

[00:35:12] And I don't remember which ones.

[00:35:13] So we're really coming in here as fresh newbies, unless you have past experience with her.

[00:35:20] Secretly?

[00:35:21] Yeah.

[00:35:21] Yeah, I thought I did, but it was actually just with William Faulkner.

[00:35:24] All right.

[00:35:24] That's right.

[00:35:24] We know what your connection with Flannery O'Connor is.

[00:35:29] I was raised by immigrants.

[00:35:30] Did you know she was a woman until yesterday?

[00:35:34] Not the first time I heard her name.

[00:35:36] For sure I didn't.

[00:35:37] But I've known for a while.

[00:35:38] So she was born in 1925, died only 39 years later of lupus, which her father also had.

[00:35:47] So I think she kind of knew it was coming.

[00:35:49] You know, she's maybe the preeminent writer in that kind of Southern Gothic style.

[00:35:57] Certainly at the time she was writing.

[00:35:59] So people who are experts on Flannery O'Connor, I apologize.

[00:36:02] But for me, this is just, as you were saying, driven by reader interest.

[00:36:07] And I read it and I was like, oh, fuck, this is awesome.

[00:36:10] So this story is her most well-known work.

[00:36:14] And I'll just say briefly, maybe without a spoiler, and then we'll get into our thoughts on it.

[00:36:18] But it's a story of a family of six in Georgia who decide to go on a road trip, a vacation to Florida, much to the objection of the grandmother, who is the central character of the story.

[00:36:30] They take a slight detour and shit just goes south from there.

[00:36:35] So you had read it before.

[00:36:36] I had never read it before.

[00:36:38] What were your thoughts?

[00:36:38] Do you remember what your thoughts were the first time you read it?

[00:36:41] My thoughts were it was a great story.

[00:36:42] There were certain things I remembered very strongly, like the character of the grandmother and the fact that she just won't stop talking throughout the whole story to the point where the other characters, and especially her son and his wife, are complete.

[00:36:58] It's like they barely exist.

[00:37:00] The wife especially.

[00:37:02] Yeah.

[00:37:02] She doesn't get a name.

[00:37:03] I mean, and she really doesn't do anything in the entire story.

[00:37:07] And then I remember them each getting led off, including the children, like into the woods and shot.

[00:37:13] And I remember the image of that.

[00:37:15] And I remembered about the misfit.

[00:37:17] There's something, I don't know, existential nihilist about him.

[00:37:22] But reading this time, I was fascinated by the misfit character and all the different ways you can interpret him.

[00:37:30] And, you know, I'm so glad we got a chance to revisit this because I might never have.

[00:37:36] And, like, I think there's so many interesting ways you could take a discussion about it.

[00:37:41] Exactly.

[00:37:42] And, you know, it maybe makes sense to note that she was a devout Catholic because that sort of religious sentiment pervades.

[00:37:50] But I don't think it hinges on, like interpretation hinges on that.

[00:37:53] But it is.

[00:37:53] But it's very biblical, the story.

[00:37:55] There's a lot of biblical allusions.

[00:37:57] You know, the possibility of grace is at least floated.

[00:38:01] I guess that really depends on the interpretation.

[00:38:04] But, yeah, the South, too.

[00:38:06] And its contradictions.

[00:38:08] Yeah.

[00:38:08] What were your, like, general impressions?

[00:38:11] I read it once.

[00:38:12] I liked it.

[00:38:13] I read it twice.

[00:38:13] I loved it.

[00:38:14] And it was just like, it is to me Cormac McCarthy-ish.

[00:38:19] Yeah.

[00:38:20] And just like these characters that are both human but mythical but grounded.

[00:38:26] One of the other things I really liked about it was the grandmother, even though I'm not from the South and from the 50s, just I know ladies like that.

[00:38:34] Yes.

[00:38:34] I just know people like everything she said.

[00:38:37] And I feel like especially when I was growing up, there were a lot of women like that.

[00:38:43] They would just talk and talk.

[00:38:44] And there was a kind of cheerfulness to them.

[00:38:46] But also it was like you want them at some point to shut the fuck up, you know?

[00:38:51] Yeah.

[00:38:52] Very concerned with appearances.

[00:38:53] Yeah.

[00:38:54] Very sort of like talking up like the quality of their upbringing and their family.

[00:39:03] And the way that all these things have declined in contemporary society.

[00:39:08] Do you have like a fleshed out interpretation, whether it's religious or not, of the story?

[00:39:16] Yeah.

[00:39:17] I don't think so.

[00:39:18] Like part of my eagerness to even record today was like I just needed to talk through this story.

[00:39:24] I have some broad notions, given what I know about her Catholicism, about culpability and original sin that seem to like really be a theme.

[00:39:36] Like especially when the misfit is like we don't even know what we're being punished for.

[00:39:40] That central moral question about if there is a God, why would he punish us for what other people have done?

[00:39:46] And which was something that I always wondered myself, which was like, why the fuck should we be punished for the sin of Adam and Eve?

[00:39:53] Right.

[00:39:54] But it's not even clear to me that the misfit doesn't deserve it.

[00:39:56] So that's why.

[00:39:57] Well, I mean, there's that.

[00:39:58] The misfit has a line where he says, I ain't a good man, but I ain't the worst in the world neither.

[00:40:04] My daddy said I was a different breed of dog from my brothers and sisters.

[00:40:07] You know, daddy said it's some that can live their whole life out without asking about it.

[00:40:11] And it's others that has to know why it is.

[00:40:14] And this boy is one of the ladders.

[00:40:15] He's going to be into everything.

[00:40:17] So he's like, he asks questions.

[00:40:20] He asks these like, if there is a God, why is there evil?

[00:40:24] Why is there unjust punishment?

[00:40:26] Why do people treat each other like this?

[00:40:29] And if we find out there's no God, well, then what are we to make of that?

[00:40:33] And this is in stark contrast to virtually everyone.

[00:40:36] Maybe not the grandmother, but arguably even the grandmother who just are gliding through life.

[00:40:41] In some cases, like sleepwalk, like the family, Bailey and his wife are sleepwalking through life.

[00:40:47] It seems like they have no real distinctive features.

[00:40:52] And then they just go to die.

[00:40:54] Like they don't even like protest dying.

[00:40:58] Certainly not the mother.

[00:40:59] But the misfit is asking these questions.

[00:41:02] Yeah.

[00:41:03] Before.

[00:41:03] Yeah.

[00:41:03] I wanted to get, make sure you give me your, if you have a like.

[00:41:07] Yeah.

[00:41:07] Like a general take.

[00:41:08] Yeah.

[00:41:09] So.

[00:41:10] And I think this could switch, you know, even over the course of this discussion.

[00:41:15] But like, I think it's kind of undeniable that the grand, it's the grandmother's fault that everybody is killed.

[00:41:22] Like every, yeah.

[00:41:23] Every step of the way.

[00:41:24] Every step of the way she makes, she does something.

[00:41:27] And sometimes it's bad, like lying.

[00:41:29] If you're a Catholic, right?

[00:41:30] Like she lies about the secret passage.

[00:41:32] And then she, of course, like reveals that she knows the misfits name.

[00:41:37] You know, the reading, which apparently maybe Flannery O'Connor gave herself of, yes, she was a flawed woman, but she achieved a moment of grace at the end when she forgave him and had empathy with the misfit.

[00:41:52] And he had to reject it.

[00:41:54] And, you know, she dies smiling.

[00:41:55] That just doesn't fly with me at all.

[00:41:58] Because, you know, she's too flawed a character.

[00:42:01] And what she does, like a lot of the characters, she just has a stronger personality.

[00:42:05] She has just kind of accepted things.

[00:42:08] And so I'm more compelled by readings that favor the misfit in some way, partly because he doesn't want to sleepwalk through life.

[00:42:16] He wants to make sense of existence in a way that, you know, his siblings.

[00:42:20] But then also it seems like most of the characters don't want to make sense.

[00:42:24] They don't want to ask themselves the hard questions about why black people were slaves.

[00:42:29] And, you know, what's the origin of this plantation and what happened on this plantation that she has such good memories of, even if it's in the wrong state.

[00:42:37] And then the misfit is more of a hero.

[00:42:40] And then you could almost, with the stuff about the misfit and him being punished but not knowing why, you could, and I'm less sure about this, but I think you could take it somewhat far.

[00:42:52] Like, he is the Jesus figure in this story, in this mirror alternate universe.

[00:42:58] Like, he's Christ.

[00:43:00] Dude, if you read what I read about Flannery O'Connor's own interpretation of this story, like, I was like, I kind of call bullshit on this.

[00:43:07] Because you're right.

[00:43:08] Like, I don't think that the grandmother had this coming to Jesus moment of being touched by God at the end.

[00:43:14] I think she reached a bare minimum of consciousness that is required of humans.

[00:43:19] Yeah.

[00:43:20] When she, at the very last moment, says, you're one of my children.

[00:43:23] That is what it is to be human, to realize that this other human being has value and that we're all in this together.

[00:43:30] That the hierarchies that you are so keen on maintaining or establishing don't matter when it comes to this.

[00:43:37] So, like, good on her that she had this realization in the last moment of her life.

[00:43:41] Then, when he shoots her and he says she would have been a good woman if it had been somebody there to shoot her every minute of her life.

[00:43:49] Yeah.

[00:43:49] This is, to me, like, what I read of O'Connor saying, like, that this was some gesture of love toward her.

[00:43:55] Yeah.

[00:43:55] I don't read that at all.

[00:43:57] I read that as, like, this was not a good woman.

[00:43:59] Right.

[00:43:59] Because what she required was the mortal fear in order to see my basic humanity.

[00:44:05] Exactly.

[00:44:06] I totally agree.

[00:44:07] Like, that line, I think it might be true, especially under your interpretation of, oh, my God, she achieved a level of just normal human empathy.

[00:44:15] You know?

[00:44:16] Yeah.

[00:44:16] Like, she started to see people as 95 on the scale.

[00:44:20] So, yeah.

[00:44:21] And there's an even darker explanation, which is that she's actually there tempting the misfit to be lulled into the kind of complacency that she is.

[00:44:31] Because she keeps saying, like, I know you're good.

[00:44:34] Yeah.

[00:44:34] Like, you were talking about her lies throughout, and I was highlighting some, like, the lies that she says throughout.

[00:44:40] And one of them, I think, is that she keeps repeating, just to save her skin, I know you're a good man.

[00:44:45] I know you're a good man.

[00:44:46] Yeah.

[00:44:47] Which is just a lie.

[00:44:48] Right?

[00:44:49] I like that reading of that one of the things she's doing is trying to, like, get him to sleep, to, like, buy into this what it is to be a good man.

[00:44:57] This, like, farce of, like, conventional morality, which he's questioning.

[00:45:01] And when he says he sprang back as if a snake had bitten him, it is like this is, you know, this is the temptress.

[00:45:09] Totally.

[00:45:10] Okay, okay.

[00:45:10] So, a couple things.

[00:45:12] The temptation of Christ in the desert by the devil.

[00:45:16] The devil tempts Christ by saying, like, eat this food if you want to live, whatever, or jump off this building and God will save you.

[00:45:22] Yeah.

[00:45:23] She does seem like the evil temptress.

[00:45:25] Because the misfit, like, I had the thought about him being a Jesus figure and the Jesus living in my heart kept pushing it away.

[00:45:33] Yeah.

[00:45:33] Because, like, I didn't.

[00:45:35] But she explicitly describes when he's talking about how he went to prison, he says, I was buried alive.

[00:45:42] Yeah.

[00:45:43] Right?

[00:45:44] That's right.

[00:45:44] He was buried and came back to life.

[00:45:46] Yep.

[00:45:46] If you're reading it that way, it seems pretty clear.

[00:45:49] And he talks about his daddy.

[00:45:52] Yeah.

[00:45:52] And the very explicit Christian theology is that God, the Father, sends Christ down to pay for the sins that he himself never committed.

[00:46:01] Right.

[00:46:02] But, like, through his suffering, the rest of humanity gets redeemed.

[00:46:06] But Christ's suffering, there's a point in the story of Jesus where he's about to get crucified and he's just praying to God, like, don't do this to me.

[00:46:15] Yeah.

[00:46:15] Because he feels God leaving him, abandoning him.

[00:46:19] So, explicitly the misfit is saying, why am I being punished for stuff that I never did?

[00:46:24] Right.

[00:46:25] Why hast thou abandoned me?

[00:46:26] And blaming my daddy.

[00:46:26] Exactly.

[00:46:27] Yeah.

[00:46:27] Exactly.

[00:46:28] Yeah.

[00:46:28] And it sounds like his dad was kind of a con man criminal.

[00:46:32] Who never got caught.

[00:46:33] Who never got caught.

[00:46:33] More charming, maybe.

[00:46:35] Yeah.

[00:46:35] And that was his, like, little, you know, rail in life.

[00:46:38] That's his track.

[00:46:39] And, yeah.

[00:46:41] And there's a question of whether he really did kill his father.

[00:46:44] Yeah.

[00:46:45] We can talk about that maybe later in the discussion.

[00:46:48] But my feeling is probably not.

[00:46:51] And we don't even really know what the misfit has done.

[00:46:55] Nope.

[00:46:56] Right?

[00:46:56] Like, do we ever have any confirmation about any of his crimes?

[00:46:59] No, other than the ones that we write.

[00:47:02] All right.

[00:47:03] Should we dive into some more of the detailed stuff?

[00:47:05] I wanted to read the first, like, paragraph because it really sets up the whole story.

[00:47:12] Yeah.

[00:47:12] The grandmother didn't want to go to Florida.

[00:47:14] She wanted to visit some of her connections in East Tennessee.

[00:47:18] And she was seizing at every chance to change Bailey's mind.

[00:47:21] Bailey was the son she lived with, her only boy.

[00:47:24] He was sitting on the edge of his chair at the table, bent over the orange sports section of the journal.

[00:47:29] Asleep.

[00:47:29] Yeah.

[00:47:30] Asleep.

[00:47:30] Exactly.

[00:47:31] This is what I do when I want to turn my brain off.

[00:47:33] I go and look at, you know, like Boston Globe sports.

[00:47:36] Look here, Bailey.

[00:47:38] She said, see here, read this.

[00:47:40] And she stood with one hand on her thin hip and the other rattling the newspaper at his bald head.

[00:47:44] Here is this fellow that calls himself the misfit, is a loose from the federal pen and headed towards Florida.

[00:47:50] And you can read here what it says he did to these people.

[00:47:52] Just you read it.

[00:47:54] I wouldn't take my children in the direction of a criminal like that, a loose.

[00:47:57] I couldn't answer my conscience if I did.

[00:47:59] Already she's kind of lying.

[00:48:01] She actually just wants to go to Tennessee and she's making up an excuse for not going there.

[00:48:07] Yeah.

[00:48:07] Totally.

[00:48:07] And it just, it really just sets up everything.

[00:48:09] Okay.

[00:48:10] The misfit is loose.

[00:48:11] And then everything she does is like bringing them into contact.

[00:48:15] You know, like it's like this inexorable crawl now for the grandmother and the family and the misfit to meet, you know?

[00:48:24] Yeah.

[00:48:24] And then we meet the rest of the family.

[00:48:26] Yeah.

[00:48:27] Let's talk about them.

[00:48:28] Yeah.

[00:48:29] The wife is a young woman in slacks.

[00:48:31] Barely get more than that.

[00:48:32] And a green head kerchief.

[00:48:34] Yeah.

[00:48:34] And, you know, obviously this is written in the third person, but it is written more from the perspective, I feel, of the grandmother.

[00:48:42] Entirely.

[00:48:42] Yeah.

[00:48:42] I mean, I guess they're all in it, but it's, we only get the grandmother's thoughts.

[00:48:47] Thoughts.

[00:48:48] Exactly.

[00:48:48] Yeah.

[00:48:48] So already I think she's casting, she's like throwing shade at the daughter for wearing slacks because she herself would dress.

[00:48:55] Yes.

[00:48:55] As we learn.

[00:48:57] Yeah.

[00:48:57] I'm going to dress like this.

[00:48:58] So if I get an accident, they'll at least know it was a lady who's dead right there.

[00:49:03] Right.

[00:49:03] Right.

[00:49:03] And that's how you let people know that you're a lady.

[00:49:06] Like you have good breeding is how you, how you dress, you know?

[00:49:10] Right.

[00:49:10] Then there's three kids.

[00:49:12] The boy's eight.

[00:49:13] I don't know if we, is the girl six or something?

[00:49:16] I don't know.

[00:49:17] I don't know.

[00:49:17] Yeah.

[00:49:18] And then there's a baby.

[00:49:19] The boy, just to note, his name is John Wesley, who is, that's the name of the founder of the Methodist religion, Protestant religion.

[00:49:26] What could that mean?

[00:49:28] I feel like this is her Catholicism.

[00:49:31] Just shade.

[00:49:31] Just like being a little, exactly shade at the Protestants.

[00:49:34] Because they're such brats, these little kids.

[00:49:37] They're terrible.

[00:49:38] If you want to believe in original sin, like they do seem like just incarnate sin in these kids.

[00:49:44] They're terrible people.

[00:49:45] But like not even, but not grand sin.

[00:49:47] Just like little bratty sin.

[00:49:50] Just like selfish, small-minded, inconsiderate, like insulting.

[00:49:55] Mildly psychopathic, too.

[00:49:56] Like when she's like, oh, nobody died in the accident.

[00:49:58] Oh, yeah.

[00:49:59] Like, yeah, right.

[00:50:00] I mean, I think every kid, unless I'm also a psychopath, if something like that happens, like you obviously don't want anyone to have died.

[00:50:09] But there is something about, oh, I was just in an accident.

[00:50:11] And all these people died, you know, like, I don't know.

[00:50:15] But yeah, you could.

[00:50:16] June Star is her name.

[00:50:17] Yes.

[00:50:17] That's a great name.

[00:50:19] Totally.

[00:50:19] You know, and then they're already fighting.

[00:50:21] But here's the thing about the kids.

[00:50:23] Even though they're such little brats, at least they are something, you know?

[00:50:27] Yeah.

[00:50:27] Whereas Bailey and his wife aren't anything.

[00:50:30] It's like they would be like if you, like, I could see them.

[00:50:33] I picture them as kind of like in the picture of Back to the Future.

[00:50:37] They're like kind of fading, like from existence already.

[00:50:40] The mother might have already been like faded, you know?

[00:50:44] Right.

[00:50:44] She's such a non-entity.

[00:50:46] So you kind of almost appreciate, okay, these kids are total little brats, but at least they actually are trying to get some enjoyment out of life or something out of life.

[00:50:56] They still have life in them.

[00:50:57] It hasn't been slowly just drawn out of them.

[00:51:00] Yeah.

[00:51:01] There's an early scene where the kids say, oh, grandma is going to go.

[00:51:06] She'll go with us anyway.

[00:51:07] Yeah.

[00:51:07] Like she has nowhere else to go.

[00:51:08] They get their grandmother, you know?

[00:51:10] Because they're totally right.

[00:51:11] The next morning she's the first one in the car.

[00:51:13] And this is the first thing she does to like kill them.

[00:51:17] She sneaks the cat into the car, which she's not supposed to bring.

[00:51:21] Right.

[00:51:22] There's a little conversation they have where the grandmother says right before that,

[00:51:26] just remember that the next time you want me to curl your hair.

[00:51:28] And the girl says, my hair is naturally curly.

[00:51:30] Yeah.

[00:51:31] And I was like, oh, this little girl's a liar too.

[00:51:33] But then later on, I was like, oh, maybe it was the grandmother who was lying.

[00:51:36] Like given that we see her lies.

[00:51:38] Yeah.

[00:51:38] She's an inveterate liar.

[00:51:40] Yeah.

[00:51:41] Yeah.

[00:51:41] I love just the description of all this.

[00:51:44] You know, like she takes down the mileage.

[00:51:46] She's in the middle of the two kids in the backseat.

[00:51:50] She's just yammering away.

[00:51:51] You've got a very vivid picture of that.

[00:51:54] Yeah.

[00:51:54] So the kids are just, you know, saying they hate Georgia.

[00:51:58] Yeah.

[00:51:59] John Wesley says, Tennessee is just a hillbilly dumping ground, which is kind of funny.

[00:52:03] That's what I'm saying.

[00:52:04] They're at least they're brats, but they're something.

[00:52:07] And then the grandmother says, in my time, children were more respectful of their native

[00:52:12] states and their parents and everything else.

[00:52:15] People did right then.

[00:52:16] Oh, look at the cute little pickaninny.

[00:52:19] Dude, I had to look up what a pickaninny was.

[00:52:21] Like terrible.

[00:52:23] I feel morally injured from having to like learn what the term pickaninny meant.

[00:52:27] Right.

[00:52:28] Which of course is like, why is that little black boy out there with no britches?

[00:52:35] Because that's kind of your, when you said everything was, everyone did right back then.

[00:52:40] Exactly.

[00:52:40] Exactly.

[00:52:41] The irony hits harder if you already know what pickaninny is, which I didn't.

[00:52:45] No, I don't.

[00:52:46] I just thought it was like some kind of 50s slur or 40s slur.

[00:52:51] What is it?

[00:52:51] But yeah, no, it is literally a slur to refer to a young black child.

[00:52:55] Oh, okay.

[00:52:55] Yeah.

[00:52:56] That's it.

[00:52:56] That is.

[00:52:57] Yeah.

[00:52:57] And then she says like, oh, if I could paint, like I would paint that, you know, what a great scene that is.

[00:53:02] This like child in poverty.

[00:53:04] Yes, exactly.

[00:53:05] Like it would be like dramatic.

[00:53:06] Again, it's that Southern, like that impulse to turn something dark into something beautiful.

[00:53:12] You know?

[00:53:12] Right.

[00:53:13] And as you say, June Starrer is the one to point out, wait, he didn't have any bridges on.

[00:53:16] So like she's, she still sees things.

[00:53:18] She hasn't been, the scales haven't formed on her eyes yet.

[00:53:21] The parents are not talking at all at this point.

[00:53:25] This is completely between the two of them.

[00:53:26] The grandmother does say that, you know, they don't have things like we do, but then says, yeah, like she just imagines how, what, like an artistic expression she could make of that.

[00:53:38] Then there's almost like a little nice moment where the kids are trading comic books.

[00:53:42] Then they want the grandmother to tell a story, which also involves.

[00:53:47] So the race is definitely a part of this story, you know, both implicitly and explicitly.

[00:53:53] Yeah.

[00:53:53] And I thought, oh, I thought you were gonna say the nice part too, where she like gets the baby on and bounces him on her knee.

[00:53:58] She's not villainous because at least she's a way of passing the time, you know?

[00:54:04] Like would they just be in silence if it weren't for her?

[00:54:07] Probably.

[00:54:08] I mean, the mother just goes to sleep right away.

[00:54:10] Yeah.

[00:54:10] Like actually literally.

[00:54:11] So then the grandmother, just like kids are getting restless, says they'll tell a story.

[00:54:16] What did you think of this story?

[00:54:18] And like it's thematic importance if there is one.

[00:54:24] So, yeah, I didn't think that much about the theme.

[00:54:27] I thought it was a funny story.

[00:54:31] She's telling about how when she was young, she was being courted by Mr. Edgar Atkins Tea Garden from Jasper, Georgia.

[00:54:37] Yeah.

[00:54:38] She said he was a very good looking man and a gentleman and that he brought her a watermelon every Saturday afternoon with his initials cut in it.

[00:54:44] E-A-T.

[00:54:45] Which is such a bizarre thing to do.

[00:54:48] So weird.

[00:54:49] It's like this is the surrealism of Southern Gothic kind of style.

[00:54:55] It's like who fucking carves their initials into a watermelon?

[00:54:59] Right.

[00:54:59] Was he like being trying to be funny because his initials spelled E-A-T?

[00:55:02] Maybe.

[00:55:02] But the story is that one day she wasn't home.

[00:55:06] He left it on the front porch with those initials and a little black boy, but she doesn't use that word.

[00:55:11] Aided when he saw the initials E-A-T.

[00:55:14] John Wesley likes that, but June Star didn't think it was good because she was like,

[00:55:19] I want something more than just a watermelon if I'm going to date a guy.

[00:55:23] But it's a great kind of contrast of this genteel woman getting a gentleman caller.

[00:55:31] A suitor is coming to visit and then the impoverished black child eats it because he thinks this is being offered to him and he's probably very hungry.

[00:55:43] Right.

[00:55:43] And he's the punchline.

[00:55:44] And it's the color.

[00:55:45] Yeah, that's the color of the story.

[00:55:47] No, it says something about like this whole view.

[00:55:49] Like this is a criticism of the culture of the South.

[00:55:52] Like this is.

[00:55:52] Yes.

[00:55:53] And it's biting.

[00:55:54] Yeah.

[00:55:54] It's biting in the sense of like you yearn for a time where like the deep injustice and sin was happening.

[00:56:03] It's the romanticizing and it's a failure to take into account like the other human beings in a way that I think she's guilty of.

[00:56:09] Yeah.

[00:56:11] Yeah.

[00:56:11] So then we get they stop at a barbecue place that's I guess attached to a gas station.

[00:56:18] And again, John Wesley calling this a hillbilly dumping ground, you know, gain some support with Red Sammy.

[00:56:26] Not that he's a bad guy, but he is like it seems like one step up from like a village idiot, you know, like a big genial guy.

[00:56:36] He has a different sleepwalking track through life.

[00:56:39] But, you know, he says the same things and he does the same things.

[00:56:44] And he's not one of these people that ask questions.

[00:56:46] Right.

[00:56:46] By the way, like I got like weird.

[00:56:49] I don't know if nostalgia is the right word, but I think we've talked about this before.

[00:56:53] Just driving through the South when you were little, you know, because like you read it.

[00:56:58] And so what they do is they see signs for a part wood filling station and dance hall.

[00:57:04] Yeah.

[00:57:04] So it's like this weird.

[00:57:06] It's like a restaurant slash gas station slash dance hall run by this husband and wife team.

[00:57:12] Yeah.

[00:57:12] I love those things sometimes.

[00:57:13] Like a lot of like we get these in Texas, you know, and like they actually are polite and friendly and they will talk to you instead of, you know, like just sitting in silence.

[00:57:23] And there's something nice about that.

[00:57:25] I always whenever I go back north, like I'm like, why does everyone hate me?

[00:57:29] You know, like anyway.

[00:57:31] So, yeah.

[00:57:32] And they're, you know, they'll talk to you.

[00:57:34] They'll spout cliches about things.

[00:57:36] But in this case, there is one weird detail, which is they also have a monkey.

[00:57:41] There's a little monkey.

[00:57:42] Yeah.

[00:57:43] Chained to a tree.

[00:57:45] Yeah.

[00:57:45] A Chinaberry tree.

[00:57:47] Why do they have a monkey chained to a Chinaberry tree?

[00:57:51] And how is it?

[00:57:51] I don't know what a Chinaberry tree is, but yeah.

[00:57:54] A gray monkey about a foot high chained to a Chinaberry tree.

[00:57:56] That's a Southern Gothic touch again.

[00:57:58] Like if you're talking about like qualities.

[00:58:01] It's some absurdist shit.

[00:58:02] I don't know if it was supposed to be like a callback to slavery or like the enslavement of the animal.

[00:58:06] That's racist.

[00:58:07] Yeah.

[00:58:08] Well.

[00:58:08] But it does seem like an illusion there.

[00:58:11] Yeah.

[00:58:11] I did come across one thing who says it's an illusion to the devil.

[00:58:14] I guess the monkey and the devil have been associated.

[00:58:18] He is in a tree.

[00:58:20] Yeah.

[00:58:20] That's right.

[00:58:21] Yeah.

[00:58:21] And I love that that monkey sprang back into the tree and got on the highest limb as soon as he saw the children jump out of the car and run to her.

[00:58:28] Because you just know that monkey has been like fucked with by kids so much.

[00:58:32] Yeah.

[00:58:32] Like the devil is no match for John Wesley and June.

[00:58:37] What's her name?

[00:58:38] Star.

[00:58:39] June Star.

[00:58:40] Yeah.

[00:58:40] So I just like this scene, you know, like because again, like there's something nice about it at first.

[00:58:45] Something nostalgic.

[00:58:46] Like you say that they're putting money in the jukebox and then the little girl starts to tap dance and the grandmother is happy and like these people are friendly.

[00:58:55] And then like the wife says, ain't she cute?

[00:58:58] Would you like to come be my little girl?

[00:59:01] June Star says, no, I certainly wouldn't.

[00:59:03] I wouldn't live in a broken down place like this for a minion bucks and runs back to the table.

[00:59:09] So this is like, I think kind of interesting actually now that I'm reading it again.

[00:59:13] Because again, it's like this, the surface of gentility is being pierced by these kids.

[00:59:20] You know, the surface of politeness is being pierced by these kids.

[00:59:24] The grandmother wants to keep it.

[00:59:25] Even the woman who was just insulted by this little brat is like still has to say like, oh, she's so cute after she says that, you know?

[00:59:34] Totally.

[00:59:35] So it's this breakdown of the superficial aspects of like a moral society, I guess.

[00:59:42] Absolutely.

[00:59:42] The kids will continue being honest through the end of the story.

[00:59:46] Yeah.

[00:59:46] And maybe in some ways they're like a debased version of the misfit that way is they're not going to pretend, you know, like everybody else is.

[00:59:55] They're going to say what they think.

[00:59:56] And maybe that's why they make the misfit nervous even, you know?

[01:00:00] Yeah.

[01:00:01] Right.

[01:00:02] You mentioned like the sort of cliched talking.

[01:00:04] I don't remember where I was reading, but it was saying that like the characters in the story speak to each other in cliches.

[01:00:11] Like the ones who are, as you say, are asleep.

[01:00:13] Like that's kind of how you can tell their character is that they're almost like NPCs like going through these motions, saying these things.

[01:00:20] Yeah.

[01:00:20] Like I used to be able to leave my screen door open.

[01:00:23] Like that's such a, that's just something you say to pass the time.

[01:00:28] Exactly.

[01:00:29] Good man is hard to find.

[01:00:30] Everything's getting terrible.

[01:00:31] I remember the day you could go off and leave your screen door unlatched, not no more.

[01:00:35] And they both agree.

[01:00:36] I like that the old lady said it was, Europe was entirely to blame for the way things are now.

[01:00:43] I guess that places it post-World War II, but maybe not.

[01:00:47] And I like how Red Sam, who probably is, that's like a conversation that's above his pay grade, says, no use talking about it.

[01:00:54] You're absolutely right.

[01:00:55] Because he doesn't want to.

[01:00:56] But I think it's like the Marshall Plan or whatever.

[01:00:59] We were giving them like a shitload of money, you know?

[01:01:02] So it could also be that that's the talking point on their version of like Tucker Carlson or something, you know?

[01:01:08] But I think you're right that Red Sam does it probably like, you know, the fuck you're talking.

[01:01:12] Sure, it's Europe's fault.

[01:01:14] No use like getting into that.

[01:01:16] You're so right that it's not worth it.

[01:01:19] Yeah.

[01:01:20] Here's what I wanted to ask you.

[01:01:21] It's called the tower, the gas station, before we move on from that.

[01:01:24] Did you like babble?

[01:01:26] Like, does that make any?

[01:01:28] Oh, yeah.

[01:01:29] Huh.

[01:01:29] I hadn't even thought about that.

[01:01:31] I mean, it's full of biblical illusions.

[01:01:33] And the way they're talking to each other, it's like they're understanding each other, but also not maybe.

[01:01:38] I don't know.

[01:01:39] Right.

[01:01:40] Yeah.

[01:01:40] Yeah.

[01:01:40] Interesting.

[01:01:41] So, OK, they leave there.

[01:01:44] She's like taking naps and then waking up because of her snoring, which is very funny.

[01:01:49] That's like what I'll do when I'm like sitting up and sleeping if that ever happens.

[01:01:53] But then she all of a sudden recalls an old plantation.

[01:01:58] She mistakenly thinks they're very close to it.

[01:02:01] And so she makes up that there is a secret panel knowing that if she can get the kids on her side, which she does, that will.

[01:02:11] So manipulative.

[01:02:13] Yeah.

[01:02:13] And she says it's interesting the way she describes it.

[01:02:16] She says there was a secret panel in this house.

[01:02:18] She said craftily, not telling the truth, but wishing she were.

[01:02:22] And the story went that all the family silver was in it when Sherman came through, but it was never found.

[01:02:27] So she makes up a pretty elaborate lie.

[01:02:30] Yeah.

[01:02:30] At this point, which she wishes she wasn't doing.

[01:02:33] But she just has this urge.

[01:02:35] It's like she's magnetically drawn to the misfit at this point to all of a sudden go to this place.

[01:02:41] Yeah.

[01:02:41] And the kids are like totally convinced.

[01:02:43] Like, OK, let's go.

[01:02:44] Let's go.

[01:02:45] And Bailey's like, fuck no.

[01:02:47] Like, and at some point is it Bailey who says like, look, even if we go there, there's people living there.

[01:02:53] Like, you can't just walk in.

[01:02:54] And John West is like, OK, no, you guys talk to them.

[01:02:57] And I'm like, I'll sneak in back.

[01:02:58] Yeah.

[01:02:59] It's hilarious.

[01:03:00] I love just the description of like the way they convince them, too.

[01:03:03] They just physically abuse them.

[01:03:06] They kick the backseat.

[01:03:07] Yeah.

[01:03:08] And they hang over the like mom and just whine in the ear.

[01:03:12] It's a great example of how kids can just beat you down.

[01:03:15] Their will is just completely defeated from these kids.

[01:03:18] Yeah.

[01:03:18] And they don't have a strong will to begin with.

[01:03:21] So it's not that hard.

[01:03:22] Yeah.

[01:03:23] Yeah.

[01:03:23] If you get the grandmother and the kids, forget it.

[01:03:26] There is another sort of sad piece of foreshadowing where finally Bailey gives in and says, all right, but get this.

[01:03:31] This is the only time we're going to stop for anything like this.

[01:03:34] This is the one and only time.

[01:03:35] It's like, yep.

[01:03:36] You're not lying.

[01:03:38] Yeah.

[01:03:39] And they have to turn back, which I think is also kind of interesting.

[01:03:42] It's like they kind of went past it and then were immediately drawn back into this collision that they're going to have.

[01:03:51] I like how you say that she was drawn to the misfit somehow because I hadn't really thought.

[01:03:55] Yeah.

[01:03:56] I was like, what is this?

[01:03:59] Like, what is she doing?

[01:03:59] What's going on?

[01:04:00] Like, is this just an error?

[01:04:01] But all of these little decisions that are being made are leading directly to an encounter.

[01:04:06] Yeah.

[01:04:06] Bringing the cat, you know, talking about a plantation earlier, remembering this plantation, but forgetting that it was Tennessee and not Georgia.

[01:04:15] So, yeah, the father's beaten down.

[01:04:18] The mother, like, we don't even know what she – we presume maybe she finds this annoying, but she can't even muster up any kind of objection or anything.

[01:04:27] And so, they're going down this road.

[01:04:29] And then all of a sudden when the grandmother realizes, holy shit, and it's like this horrible thought, the embarrassment of that leads her to throw the cat forward.

[01:04:39] The cat grabs on the neck of the father and they have an accident.

[01:04:43] Yeah.

[01:04:44] Yeah.

[01:04:45] Right.

[01:04:45] They're in a gulch off the side of the road.

[01:04:47] They flip, apparently, once.

[01:04:50] Nobody's hurt, it is said, except for the wife had to cut down her face and a broken shoulder.

[01:04:54] Right.

[01:04:55] But you don't hear a peep of complaint from her out of that.

[01:04:59] Like, yeah.

[01:05:00] Like, live, die, injured, not injured.

[01:05:03] It's all – it's just – yeah, it's really kind of amazing, like, all the things.

[01:05:07] She lied about the plantation.

[01:05:10] She snuck the cat into the car.

[01:05:12] She misremembered about the plantation and then gets embarrassed by that.

[01:05:16] And she's, like, over-determining them, like, meeting them.

[01:05:21] So you could look at it as, like, almost like, you know, this is her sin or whatever is there.

[01:05:27] But I do – and I wasn't thinking of it until we started talking of it.

[01:05:30] It's like they're drawn to each other, too.

[01:05:33] Maybe by some other force.

[01:05:35] I don't know.

[01:05:36] And it's interesting because she is initially opposed to going to Florida because she wants to avoid the misfit.

[01:05:43] But even, like, once she's become aware of the misfit, it's like everything is – like, she didn't even fight it too much.

[01:05:49] She was first person in the car ready to go.

[01:05:52] And probably happy about it because she is – like, she has a kind of disposition of, like, if we're going, I'm at least going to – you know, I'm going to tell some stories.

[01:06:00] I'm going to look outside.

[01:06:01] I'm going to – you know, which, again, is why – like, normally she might be an almost villainous character.

[01:06:06] But you're grateful for just the life and animation she brings to the story.

[01:06:11] Yeah.

[01:06:11] And then it's a good description of the accident, I think.

[01:06:14] There's a kind of excitement to it.

[01:06:16] There's a kind of, you know, like, what the fuck that just happened?

[01:06:19] There's always some – like, the fact that he has to pull the cat.

[01:06:22] The cat is hanging on his neck and the baby's screaming.

[01:06:26] She had a broken shoulder, like you said.

[01:06:27] I didn't even notice that.

[01:06:29] Like, I swear to God, I did not notice that.

[01:06:31] It's just – because it's just, like, a detail that doesn't matter.

[01:06:35] And then –

[01:06:35] Totally.

[01:06:35] Like, it caught, like, blood running down her face.

[01:06:37] But what do you make of – we've had an accident, the children screamed in a frenzy of delight.

[01:06:42] You mentioned the other thing where they're almost disappointed.

[01:06:45] But, like –

[01:06:46] Yeah.

[01:06:46] Nobody's killed, Gene Starr said, with disappointment.

[01:06:48] To which I wrote, don't worry.

[01:06:50] Yes.

[01:06:51] You won't be disappointed much longer.

[01:06:54] Yeah.

[01:06:55] Yeah.

[01:06:55] I didn't know what to make of it.

[01:06:57] Like, it's consistent with the brattiness of them.

[01:06:59] But it's also just, like, consistent with their kind of innocence.

[01:07:03] They don't realize what death is and that they could have died.

[01:07:06] This was like a brief roller coaster.

[01:07:08] They flipped over once.

[01:07:09] Not twice, like Grandma says.

[01:07:11] Yeah.

[01:07:11] She even has to lie and exaggerate about that.

[01:07:13] Still lie.

[01:07:14] Yeah.

[01:07:15] Yeah.

[01:07:16] Yeah.

[01:07:16] That's exactly right.

[01:07:17] I also think it's like, well, something's happening, you know?

[01:07:20] Oh, my God.

[01:07:20] By the way, that reminds me, Jesus does talk about the devil as the father of all lies.

[01:07:25] So, there's another.

[01:07:26] She's the devil.

[01:07:27] The misfits.

[01:07:28] Jesus.

[01:07:29] Done.

[01:07:29] Next story.

[01:07:31] And Jesus wins.

[01:07:33] And Jesus wins.

[01:07:34] Yeah.

[01:07:35] I guess the other thing I was saying just then is, like, they're just happy that something's happening.

[01:07:42] Like, this is out of the ordinary.

[01:07:43] They're out of some kind of routine, you know?

[01:07:46] Yeah.

[01:07:47] That is a kid thing.

[01:07:48] But also, you can imagine if those were your parents, that would be, like, something to celebrate, maybe.

[01:07:55] And then the misfit, you know.

[01:07:57] And you know this as a reader.

[01:07:58] The first time, obviously, you know that this is, okay, now the misfit's going to come along.

[01:08:03] They haven't just been talking about the misfit the whole time.

[01:08:06] Oh, and here's the last moment where the grandma totally is responsible for it.

[01:08:12] As they're on the side of the road, the grandmother stood up and waved both arms dramatically to attract the attention of the car.

[01:08:18] That's not even the last one.

[01:08:19] That's, like, the second to last one.

[01:08:21] That's right.

[01:08:22] That's right.

[01:08:22] Second to last one.

[01:08:23] Yeah.

[01:08:23] Because there's absolutely a chance that the misfit might have let them go.

[01:08:27] Just fuck up.

[01:08:28] Yep.

[01:08:28] Yeah.

[01:08:29] You know you don't fuck up.

[01:08:30] And it was a big, black-battered, hearse-like automobile with the three guys.

[01:08:34] Yeah.

[01:08:35] Yeah.

[01:08:35] I love that.

[01:08:36] I didn't, I mean, I noticed that she exaggerated it.

[01:08:39] But it's just, again, her pattern of lying is to just say how, like, if something just so, like, who cares how many times he stood over?

[01:08:46] She's like the kids.

[01:08:47] It's, like, more interesting.

[01:08:48] It's, like, a better story if they turned over two times.

[01:08:52] But then, I don't know how you picture these other guys, but they just seem like.

[01:08:56] Like yokels.

[01:08:57] Yeah, like southern trash, kind of, the way they're described.

[01:09:00] Yeah, yeah.

[01:09:01] And, like, kind of, you know, maybe, like, moronic.

[01:09:04] Right.

[01:09:04] Like, in some technical sense.

[01:09:06] Oh, before that, when they get out of the car, it says that the grandmother had the peculiar feeling that the bespectacled man was someone she knew.

[01:09:15] Which makes sense, given that she had just been looking at his face in the paper.

[01:09:17] But it says his face was as familiar to her as if she had known him her whole life.

[01:09:22] Yeah.

[01:09:23] But she could not recall who he was.

[01:09:25] Which is, again, there's something deeper here between these two.

[01:09:27] Yeah, this is Jesus.

[01:09:28] I've known Jesus.

[01:09:29] He's always here, even if you don't notice him.

[01:09:32] You know, his love.

[01:09:34] And he's described as someone who is, he was an older man.

[01:09:40] His hair was just beginning to gray and he wore silver-rimmed spectacles that gave him a scholarly look.

[01:09:46] Yeah.

[01:09:46] Which is a very weird, like, way to describe somebody who, up until now, has sounded like almost Boo Radley-ish in my mind, at least.

[01:09:54] Yeah.

[01:09:55] With the...

[01:09:55] But he has no shirt on and he has a black hat and a gun and the two boys he's with also have guns.

[01:10:04] And then I like that John Wesley is like, why do you have a gun?

[01:10:06] What are you going to do with the gun?

[01:10:07] So John Wesley is actually like, acknowledging reality at this point.

[01:10:12] It's like, again, the kids are like the grandmother.

[01:10:15] They're at least alive, you know?

[01:10:18] Yeah.

[01:10:18] Not for long.

[01:10:19] But...

[01:10:21] Yeah.

[01:10:21] The grandmother fucks up.

[01:10:24] She says, you're the misfit.

[01:10:26] Yeah.

[01:10:27] And the man says, like, yes, yes, but it would have been better for all of you, lady, if you hadn't have recognized me.

[01:10:36] So the implication is there that, like...

[01:10:40] She sealed their fate.

[01:10:40] She sealed their fate right there.

[01:10:42] Yeah.

[01:10:43] And the grandmother even knows that, right?

[01:10:45] She knows immediately.

[01:10:46] Yeah.

[01:10:46] And then Bailey's like, what the fuck?

[01:10:50] Like, it doesn't tell us what Bailey says.

[01:10:52] Yeah.

[01:10:52] Oh, I wanted to ask you what you think he said, actually.

[01:10:54] I know.

[01:10:55] I was like, what does he say?

[01:10:57] So hold on.

[01:10:58] So Bailey turned his head sharply and said something to his mother that shocked even the children, which they're hard to shock, I think.

[01:11:04] The old lady began to cry and the misfit read it.

[01:11:08] Like, it made the misfit blush.

[01:11:10] And he goes, lady, don't get upset.

[01:11:12] Sometimes a man says things he don't mean.

[01:11:14] I don't reckon he meant to talk to you that way.

[01:11:16] I'm thinking he definitely called her an old cunt.

[01:11:20] Yeah.

[01:11:21] You stupid old cunt.

[01:11:23] I think that's the only thing that I can think of that would be that shocking.

[01:11:28] By the way, right before that, it's described that the line of woods gaped like a dark open mouth, which is just so great.

[01:11:34] It's the surreality of it, the heightened quality of the whole story.

[01:11:38] But yes, and those are woods that, you know, it's like a black hole.

[01:11:42] That will devour them.

[01:11:42] That will devour them.

[01:11:43] That's right.

[01:11:44] So almost immediately, the grandmother, realizing she fucked up, just starts saying, like, you're a good person.

[01:11:52] I know you're a good man.

[01:11:53] You don't have common blood.

[01:11:54] I know you must come from nice people.

[01:11:56] Yeah.

[01:11:57] Yeah.

[01:11:57] What do you think about this interchange?

[01:11:58] I mean, this is, again, like what she, in her world, like that's the ultimate compliment.

[01:12:04] Like you come from good blood.

[01:12:05] Like I know you're not common.

[01:12:07] Right.

[01:12:07] And it's just like to somebody who doesn't come from that, it's just extra insulting.

[01:12:12] And I think that he's pretty polite given the circumstances about it.

[01:12:16] And people like her have probably his whole life been looking down on them.

[01:12:22] So for her to be like, oh, you're not like them.

[01:12:24] Yeah.

[01:12:25] You know, is just insulting.

[01:12:26] That's why I think like he's actually pretty cool about it.

[01:12:28] Yeah.

[01:12:29] Oh, interesting.

[01:12:30] Yeah.

[01:12:30] I mean, she's saying that, but when she says, I know you're a good man, we think he's a murderer, right?

[01:12:36] Like we don't know the circumstances, but we think at least in her mind, he's a murderer.

[01:12:41] He was in the federal pen.

[01:12:42] Yeah.

[01:12:43] You know, he was.

[01:12:43] So like, it just sounds like another lie.

[01:12:46] You know, I know you're a good man.

[01:12:48] I haven't highlighted with my, I color coded the lies.

[01:12:52] Yeah.

[01:12:53] Yeah.

[01:12:53] And this was one of the lies.

[01:12:54] Like, this is not like her coming to, you know, like at the end where she says like, oh, you're one of my children.

[01:13:01] This is blatant lying to try to get out of the situation.

[01:13:03] Yes.

[01:13:04] But then he says like, finest people in the world.

[01:13:08] God never made a finer woman than my mother.

[01:13:09] My daddy's heart was, you know, was pure gold.

[01:13:11] He says, you get the sense that his dad was a bit of a criminal, but he got away with it.

[01:13:16] Yeah.

[01:13:16] So it's like, is he lying?

[01:13:19] Like, what do you make of what he says about the father?

[01:13:22] I guess like how honest is he being here?

[01:13:25] Because my feeling is he might be totally honest.

[01:13:27] Yeah.

[01:13:28] Like he's definitely being polite and we don't have reason to think that he's lying.

[01:13:31] Yeah.

[01:13:32] Like in my head, I almost was like, maybe he was radically abused by his father and is like, we're supposed to believe that he kind of suppressed a memory of getting like revenge on that.

[01:13:44] But I don't feel like he is like, I feel like he genuinely doesn't quite know what happened in this really sad way.

[01:13:50] Yeah.

[01:13:51] It's like he was reborn, found himself in prison.

[01:13:54] So you might think he got put in prison either for something that he didn't do.

[01:13:59] He was framed maybe by his father, but maybe by just somebody else.

[01:14:04] Or maybe he did something, but it was minor.

[01:14:06] But, you know, like was just brutalized by the prison system.

[01:14:10] It's weird because he's like, no, my father died from like the flu epidemic.

[01:14:13] And like you can go see.

[01:14:14] He's almost defensive about it.

[01:14:16] He's like, that's bullshit.

[01:14:17] I think, and it's the psychiatrist that tells him that the reason he's there is that he killed his dad.

[01:14:22] I think he was probably just a Freudian and was like saying that as a metaphor.

[01:14:27] I mean, honestly, I think that's what it was because he was like, I know that's not true.

[01:14:31] But I can't remember what it actually is.

[01:14:34] And I think you're right.

[01:14:35] It's because he, I didn't think of that, but he's reborn in, so he's reborn into a world of punishment that he doesn't even know what it's for.

[01:14:45] That's such a good metaphor for like, you know, one way of being, viewing life.

[01:14:50] You are born and you get punished and you don't know why.

[01:14:54] You never quite know why.

[01:14:55] Exactly.

[01:14:55] But he's the kind that just asks questions.

[01:14:58] Most people will just take the punishment and walk into the big black hole in the woods and die.

[01:15:03] But he just won't do that, you know?

[01:15:05] He says, I never was a bad boy that I remember of.

[01:15:08] He said in almost a dreamy voice.

[01:15:10] But somewhere along the line, I'd done something wrong and got sent to the penitentiary.

[01:15:13] I was buried alive.

[01:15:14] And she keeps saying like, did you pray?

[01:15:16] That's when you should have started to pray.

[01:15:18] And he has a particular view of why he doesn't need Jesus.

[01:15:22] Like, and I think that it is about this like, look, you're telling me to pray to this guy for some like reason.

[01:15:29] I should give up my life to him when, look what's happened to me.

[01:15:33] Like, I don't need that.

[01:15:34] He's no friend of mine.

[01:15:35] Yeah.

[01:15:36] But then he says, like, which I don't know how to interpret with my interpretation or really.

[01:15:42] He says, I'm sorry I don't have a shirt on before you ladies.

[01:15:46] And he explains why.

[01:15:47] He's very truthful about why.

[01:15:49] Maybe in contrast to the grandmother because they buried the clothes when they escaped.

[01:15:54] So they're just trying, you know, they just have some genes maybe from someone they killed.

[01:15:59] But who knows?

[01:16:00] Yeah.

[01:16:01] Because that's why the genes were small.

[01:16:02] And then they just start two by two taking, or I guess two by three, taking the people into the woods.

[01:16:11] But first it's John Wesley and Bailey, the father and the son to go into the woods.

[01:16:17] I mean, the father pretty much goes without a fight, although he almost seems like he might try to fight it.

[01:16:26] Like, why do they just go?

[01:16:28] They just give themselves up like this to these two guys, I guess, out of just, they can't resist.

[01:16:38] Yeah.

[01:16:38] It's like pure defeatists.

[01:16:41] It's almost like they're already dead.

[01:16:43] Yeah.

[01:16:43] And they have been.

[01:16:45] Yeah.

[01:16:45] Because like you say, he says, listen, we're in a terrible predicament.

[01:16:48] Nobody realizes what this is.

[01:16:50] That's what Bailey's saying.

[01:16:51] And I wasn't sure whether he's talking to the rest of the family saying like, you guys don't realize that we're all going to die right now.

[01:16:58] Or whether he was trying to make an appeal to the misfit in his gang.

[01:17:03] But even he lies.

[01:17:04] He says, I'll be back in a minute, mama.

[01:17:06] Wait on me.

[01:17:06] Yeah.

[01:17:07] Like, again, that's what you should say in this kind of situation.

[01:17:10] I love, this is a great touch, that he's wearing a shirt.

[01:17:14] Like, you can picture the shirt with just a bunch of parrots on it.

[01:17:18] And like, it's just funny that he, because they're going to Florida.

[01:17:21] It seems like something a guy might wear in Florida, you know.

[01:17:25] But then also, like, he's a parrot.

[01:17:28] He just repeats things that people have said to him.

[01:17:31] Ah.

[01:17:31] You know.

[01:17:32] Yeah.

[01:17:33] Never even thought about that.

[01:17:34] Totally.

[01:17:34] Yeah.

[01:17:39] Yeah.

[01:17:40] Like, you're a good man.

[01:17:42] I know you can find it in you to be a good man.

[01:17:44] I think she is trying to reach him in some way.

[01:17:46] Yep.

[01:17:47] Nobody else is talking.

[01:17:48] Like, nobody else has said a damn word to the misfits.

[01:17:51] The mother hasn't said anything.

[01:17:53] The kids sort of insult the henchmen.

[01:17:55] Yeah.

[01:17:55] So then there's two pistol shots.

[01:17:59] And she says, Bailey boy.

[01:18:02] And then the misfit, like, this is him being a psychopath serial killer, just talking about how he was a gospel singer.

[01:18:08] He's been in the armed service.

[01:18:10] Like, knowing that this woman just had her son and grandson just shot.

[01:18:14] And again, the mother is not doing anything.

[01:18:17] He said he's been an undertaker.

[01:18:19] He's been in the railroads, plowed Mother Earth, been in a tornado, seen a man burnt alive.

[01:18:24] This is very Cormac McCarthy.

[01:18:26] I mean, obviously, that's anachronistic.

[01:18:28] But, like, I even seen a woman flogged.

[01:18:31] And he looks over at the mother and the girl when he says that.

[01:18:36] And the grandmother keeps telling him to pray at this point.

[01:18:39] Yeah.

[01:18:39] And then the line that you were talking about that he.

[01:18:42] Yeah.

[01:18:42] He says, I forget what I done when he was in the penchantress.

[01:18:45] Turn to the right.

[01:18:46] It was a wall.

[01:18:46] Turn to the left.

[01:18:47] It was a wall.

[01:18:47] Look up.

[01:18:48] It was a ceiling.

[01:18:48] Look down.

[01:18:49] It was a floor.

[01:18:49] I forget what I done, lady.

[01:18:51] I sat there and sat there trying to remember what it was I'd done, and I ain't recalled

[01:18:55] it to this day.

[01:18:56] Once in a while, I would think it was coming to me, but it'd never come.

[01:18:59] And that's, to me, like, that's the human condition of suffering where you're just like,

[01:19:02] what did I do to deserve this?

[01:19:03] Like, you almost get the sense that you might deserve it.

[01:19:06] Right.

[01:19:06] But, like, not like this.

[01:19:08] And it's very, like you said earlier, Jesus-y.

[01:19:10] It's very Christ-like to be like, what did I do to actually deserve this on the cross?

[01:19:16] And I like, she's deploying religion.

[01:19:19] She's not, like, being Christ-like.

[01:19:22] She's using the words that you say to people.

[01:19:25] Let's pray together.

[01:19:26] Come on.

[01:19:27] Like, it's just all of that bullshit that people say because that's just what you say.

[01:19:32] Let's pray together.

[01:19:33] Haven't you tried?

[01:19:33] Yes.

[01:19:34] And at this point, this just seems like a Hail Mary.

[01:19:36] This seems like another dishonest Hail Mary that she's throwing to try to, like, somehow

[01:19:41] save the rest of the game.

[01:19:43] So, this is chilling.

[01:19:45] He says, lady, would you and that little girl, she talks to the mother, like to step off yonder

[01:19:51] with Bobby Lee and hear him and join your husband?

[01:19:53] And the mother just says, yes, thank you.

[01:19:55] So, she's just, like, consigning her two remaining children to death right there.

[01:20:02] Yeah.

[01:20:02] You know, her shoulder's broken.

[01:20:04] She's bloody-faced.

[01:20:05] She's carrying her child.

[01:20:07] She knows that her husband and her son have just been killed.

[01:20:09] Yeah.

[01:20:10] It's like, do I want to stay here?

[01:20:11] And, uh...

[01:20:12] She says, thank you.

[01:20:14] Like, at least, uh, June Star insults the...

[01:20:18] Like, just bratty to the end, you know?

[01:20:21] Totally.

[01:20:21] Uh, she's the heroine of the story.

[01:20:24] By the way, Bobby Lee, Robert E. Lee.

[01:20:26] Oh, yeah.

[01:20:27] Um...

[01:20:28] And Hiram is a biblical character, but I don't think it has anything to do with it.

[01:20:32] Yeah, these are the two kind of idiots.

[01:20:34] I guess cellmates or something?

[01:20:35] I don't know.

[01:20:36] He may be, right?

[01:20:37] Yeah.

[01:20:37] So, before that, when they came back, Bobby Lee was dragging a yellow shirt with bright

[01:20:42] blue parrots on it.

[01:20:43] Throw me that shirt, Bobby Lee the misfit said.

[01:20:45] The shirt came flying at him and landed on his shoulder and he put it on.

[01:20:47] The grandmother couldn't name what the shirt reminded her of, which was also a chilling

[01:20:52] thing to me.

[01:20:53] Like...

[01:20:53] It's chilling to put on the husband's shirt in front of them, but yeah.

[01:20:58] But that she couldn't remember.

[01:20:59] Has she gone crazy?

[01:21:00] She's, like, breaking right now.

[01:21:02] Right.

[01:21:03] Like, I thought at first when I read it, I kind of glossed over that.

[01:21:06] Like, she...

[01:21:08] Yeah.

[01:21:08] Like, it reminded her of some movie she saw or something like that.

[01:21:11] But no, like, she can't even remember that that was her son's shirt.

[01:21:15] That was Bailey's shirt.

[01:21:16] Yeah.

[01:21:16] Jesus Christ.

[01:21:17] Yeah.

[01:21:19] It's pretty dark.

[01:21:20] And then you get this, you know, this is, I think, you know, why there's a lot of English

[01:21:26] PhD thesis written about that.

[01:21:28] When he says, Jesus shown everything off balance.

[01:21:32] It was the same case with him as with me.

[01:21:34] He hadn't committed any crime that they could prove.

[01:21:36] I had committed one because they had the papers on me.

[01:21:39] Of course, they never shown me my papers.

[01:21:41] That's why I signed myself now, which I didn't quite get.

[01:21:45] Like, maybe he was doing X's before.

[01:21:47] Yeah, like these confession papers.

[01:21:48] Yeah.

[01:21:49] That's what I think it must be.

[01:21:50] And now he signs his name and not just an X?

[01:21:53] Is that what...

[01:21:53] That's why I signed myself now?

[01:21:55] I don't know.

[01:21:56] Maybe, or they like said that they wrote up his confession, but they never showed it

[01:22:00] to him.

[01:22:00] But like, since he never saw them, he couldn't sign them.

[01:22:02] So now he insists on...

[01:22:04] Oh, maybe he did a...

[01:22:05] Actually reading.

[01:22:06] Like an E signature, maybe.

[01:22:08] He didn't have Adobe Acrobat Reader installed.

[01:22:12] Now I use Duo authorization for all my important documents.

[01:22:18] You get a signature, oh, and you keep a copy of it.

[01:22:21] Then you'll know what you've done and you can hold up the crime to the punishment and see

[01:22:25] do they match.

[01:22:26] And in the end, you'll have something to prove you ain't been treated right.

[01:22:30] I call myself the misfit because I can't make what I done wrong fit all of what I've gone

[01:22:35] through in punishment.

[01:22:36] And he doesn't even know what he did wrong, right?

[01:22:39] Yeah.

[01:22:39] He doesn't know what he did wrong.

[01:22:40] And he figures he must have done something wrong, but it can't have been wrong enough

[01:22:44] to justify what was done to him in punishment.

[01:22:47] Yeah.

[01:22:47] So then he goes back to Jesus throw everything off balance.

[01:22:50] He was the only one that raised the dead.

[01:22:52] He shouldn't have done it.

[01:22:53] He shown everything off balance.

[01:22:55] He did what he said, then it's nothing for you, but to throw away everything and follow

[01:22:59] him.

[01:22:59] And if he didn't, then it's nothing to you, but enjoy the few minutes you got left the

[01:23:04] best way you can by killing somebody or burning down his house or doing some other meanness

[01:23:09] to him.

[01:23:09] No pleasure, but meanness, he said.

[01:23:11] And his voice had become almost a snarl.

[01:23:14] Yeah.

[01:23:14] So what do you make of this?

[01:23:16] Because it's actually pretty complicated to figure out like what he's saying here.

[01:23:20] Yeah.

[01:23:21] This is right after the kids have been all killed, all three of them now.

[01:23:24] And like everybody's dead except the grandmother.

[01:23:26] Except grandma.

[01:23:27] And she keeps telling him to pray and pray and pray.

[01:23:29] So Jesus shown everything off balance.

[01:23:33] Like he hadn't committed any crime that they could prove, right?

[01:23:37] So he's saying he and I both share this thing.

[01:23:40] Like he didn't commit any crime and neither could I.

[01:23:44] And he got punished for it.

[01:23:45] And so did I.

[01:23:47] But Jesus raised the dead, right?

[01:23:50] And Jesus rose from the dead.

[01:23:53] And that shows maybe that this doesn't have to be happening.

[01:23:58] If Jesus could have raised the dead, if God has the power to like undo Jesus's own death

[01:24:04] and like the punishment that he went through.

[01:24:06] And if Jesus had the power to like raise other people from the dead.

[01:24:09] But yet all we've experienced is the inevitability of death and like the being punished without seeing any reason.

[01:24:18] And never, you know, living this short ass life.

[01:24:20] Yeah.

[01:24:20] And like suffering like throughout.

[01:24:22] Yeah.

[01:24:23] Then like Jesus fucked it up by showing us.

[01:24:25] God showing us that he could do that has just shown me that God is fucked up.

[01:24:29] Like because he only did it for him.

[01:24:31] Yeah.

[01:24:32] Yeah.

[01:24:33] Okay.

[01:24:33] That's interesting.

[01:24:34] I like that.

[01:24:35] That I wasn't there.

[01:24:36] So I can't say he didn't raise the dead or not.

[01:24:38] But if I had been there, then I would have known.

[01:24:41] And then he says, if I had been there, I would have known and I wouldn't be like I am now.

[01:24:45] So the idea, I guess, is that if he could have seen it, right?

[01:24:51] Then he could have just thrown everything away and followed him.

[01:24:55] But because he wasn't there, like he can't know.

[01:24:58] He can't know that this happened.

[01:25:00] Yeah.

[01:25:00] He's unwilling to take a leap of faith.

[01:25:02] He's unwilling to take a leap of faith.

[01:25:04] And then he does the thing of decide, well, then you just like kill everybody, which is

[01:25:10] always the inference that seems like, you know, like we've talked about this before.

[01:25:17] It's like, why do you want to burn down somebody's house and kill them and do meanness to them?

[01:25:21] You know?

[01:25:21] But I think it's almost like a revolt, you know?

[01:25:24] Like it's his revolt against this bullshit world where you suffer and you don't know

[01:25:30] what you did to deserve it, you know?

[01:25:32] And I don't think he even gets pleasure in it.

[01:25:35] It is like almost like a principled rebellion, you know?

[01:25:39] Yeah.

[01:25:40] Maybe when we get to the very end, that's what I think might change in him, that he might

[01:25:43] at least have thought that he was getting some pleasure out of it.

[01:25:46] But then he realizes at the end that actually there's no pleasure even in that.

[01:25:50] Yeah.

[01:25:51] A couple of things.

[01:25:52] One is the like, if Jesus did what he did, then you should just follow him.

[01:25:56] Like that's like the, one of the parables of Jesus and the rich man is when he's the rich

[01:26:01] man says, what can I do to get to heaven?

[01:26:03] And he says, sell all your belongings and follow me.

[01:26:06] Hmm.

[01:26:07] So like, it's like sort of a direct reference to what you're supposed to do.

[01:26:13] If you really believe, that's what you would do.

[01:26:15] And honestly, the grandmother clearly doesn't really believe or she would have thrown, given

[01:26:19] her life truly to Jesus.

[01:26:22] Then the other thing that I thought was an allusion was when he says, if I had been there

[01:26:28] and seen it, maybe my life would be different, which is just very much like the story of Thomas,

[01:26:32] the doubting Thomas, who didn't have the faith enough to believe without actually seeing.

[01:26:38] He was like, I want to see your Jesus.

[01:26:39] Show me your hands so that I can know.

[01:26:41] And Jesus says, you believe because you saw blessed are those who have not seen and yet

[01:26:46] believed.

[01:26:47] And like, that's supposed to be the faith that it takes to follow God.

[01:26:50] But the misfit is like, fuck that.

[01:26:52] I can't do it.

[01:26:53] Like if I'm not seeing it, I'm not going to follow it.

[01:26:55] So maybe if I would have seen it, like my life would be different.

[01:26:57] Right.

[01:26:58] And the funny, the Christian inversion is to make a virtue out of following him without

[01:27:03] seeing it, without having any real reason to believe that it's true.

[01:27:07] This is why, like, I think he's the dark Jesus.

[01:27:09] Yeah.

[01:27:10] You know, he's just like a bizarro Jesus.

[01:27:13] Yeah.

[01:27:13] Or maybe even just like the true Jesus.

[01:27:16] Like that, like if you really want to take a dark interpretation of this story, like he's

[01:27:20] not putting up with this bullshit, like this kind of bromide that like theology is throwing

[01:27:26] at you to try to make you feel better about like the fact that this life is punishment

[01:27:31] and injustice and pain.

[01:27:34] Totally.

[01:27:34] You know?

[01:27:35] Yeah.

[01:27:35] So if you wanted to defend the she has a moment of grace moment, I think the way you would

[01:27:42] do it, although I don't, I really don't buy it.

[01:27:45] It doesn't work for me at all is before this moment, she is just like, pray you oughtn't

[01:27:52] to shoot a lady.

[01:27:53] This is after they already like killed almost everybody, but she's still just being like,

[01:27:57] don't shoot an old lady, you know, like that's bad.

[01:28:00] And even offers money.

[01:28:02] She's trying to bribe them.

[01:28:03] Salvation through cliche.

[01:28:04] She's like trying to save herself through cliche.

[01:28:06] Yeah, exactly.

[01:28:06] And then in this moment, which is after the exchange that we just talked about, it says,

[01:28:12] she saw the man's face twisted close to her own as if he were going to cry.

[01:28:16] And she murmured, why you're one of my babies.

[01:28:18] You're one of my own children.

[01:28:20] And then she reaches out and touches him on the shoulder, which I assume is another Jesus

[01:28:25] like, but I don't like, I don't know it.

[01:28:28] Not that I know of.

[01:28:29] Somebody touches his robe for sure.

[01:28:31] But if you were saying she's like this, she became Jesus briefly at the end.

[01:28:36] Oh, I see.

[01:28:37] And that's when he shoots her.

[01:28:39] And then of course, the fact that she has a smile on her face at the cloudless sky when

[01:28:45] she dies.

[01:28:46] I mean, she's a Catholic.

[01:28:47] And one of the things about Catholics is they think you could just do this one confession

[01:28:52] at the end, right?

[01:28:53] Yeah.

[01:28:54] So maybe, but that's so not how I read this.

[01:28:58] I find it's really hard to believe that Flannery O'Connor even believes this.

[01:29:02] I agree.

[01:29:03] Like, you know, it's like the text is so, it just doesn't work that way.

[01:29:07] I mean, she does say the grandmothers, right before that, what you read, the grandmothers

[01:29:11] had cleared for an instant.

[01:29:12] Yeah.

[01:29:12] So it does seem like she's making a clear-headed decision for the first time.

[01:29:16] Like a divine illumination, you know?

[01:29:18] Yeah.

[01:29:19] Like an awakening.

[01:29:20] But that awakening to me is, again, an awakening of humanity.

[01:29:23] And she's recognizing him as a fellow human who deserves compassion.

[01:29:27] And she touches him.

[01:29:28] And that moment, I think, is a moment maybe of grace, you could call it.

[01:29:32] But it's a moment of her recognizing his humanity and him being so not used to somebody truly

[01:29:39] seeing him as a fellow human, like one of my babies, that he recoils.

[01:29:43] He hasn't been treated that way at any point in his life that he can remember.

[01:29:48] Certainly not since he kind of awoke to his new life as a convict.

[01:29:52] Right.

[01:29:52] And he's really good at dealing with the bullshit that she's spewing at him, the cliches and

[01:29:58] like the tropes of what a Christian says.

[01:30:01] But the moment that I think he realizes this is a genuine thing that she's expressing,

[01:30:07] that scares him.

[01:30:08] Yeah.

[01:30:08] Yeah.

[01:30:08] Yeah.

[01:30:09] It's like connection.

[01:30:10] Yeah.

[01:30:10] It's undeniably, I think, like he is being tempted here.

[01:30:14] And maybe it's a bizarro kind of, you know, kind of temptation where, but he, like the snake

[01:30:21] is this undeniable thing of like, this is a temptation that he is rejecting.

[01:30:27] And the temptation, I think, is like, join our world of delusion.

[01:30:33] Join our world of this is all okay.

[01:30:35] You know, being punished, living in this world with no justice and actually making a virtue

[01:30:42] of it.

[01:30:42] Like the faith of it, you know, the beautiful painting of the little black boy with no,

[01:30:47] you know, like the Southern gentility worldview of making sense of the world's injustice and

[01:30:55] their own injustice.

[01:30:56] And that is a temptation that he can't allow himself to be drawn into.

[01:31:02] And so shoots her.

[01:31:04] He's the only one.

[01:31:05] She is the only one he shoots and then cleans his glasses afterwards.

[01:31:09] Like, oh my God.

[01:31:10] It was almost like I got fogged for a second, you know?

[01:31:13] Yeah.

[01:31:14] All of that stuff.

[01:31:15] That's the temptation.

[01:31:16] I totally am with you.

[01:31:17] But that last moment when she says, you're one of my babies, she's not even asking him

[01:31:20] for anything.

[01:31:21] No, but the temptation is just to take this seriously.

[01:31:25] Yeah.

[01:31:26] But I think that she's in that last minute has changed to say something sincere and that

[01:31:31] sincere is just an expression of like humanity.

[01:31:33] And that's what makes him recoil because none of her temptations have even moved the needle

[01:31:37] for him.

[01:31:38] But I think she's not tempting him in that last act.

[01:31:41] I think that last act is, oh shit, I just realized like we're in this together and she

[01:31:47] touches him.

[01:31:48] And that is what like he can't handle.

[01:31:50] He could handle her lies.

[01:31:52] But that's why it's tempting.

[01:31:54] It's not tempting when it's just lies of people trying to save their own skin selfishly.

[01:31:59] Like he already knows the world is like that.

[01:32:01] The temptation, I think, is precisely in the fact that this is a genuine expression of humanity

[01:32:07] in the face of evil.

[01:32:09] And then snake, like that to him is like the snake of temptation.

[01:32:13] Like I could actually-

[01:32:15] He's rejecting the humanity.

[01:32:15] Yes.

[01:32:16] He's rejecting, and if it's genuine, that makes it all the more tempting.

[01:32:19] But he knows that this isn't really how it is, you know?

[01:32:22] And that's why I think he reacts so strongly and shoots her three times instead of telling

[01:32:27] the two guys to shoot her.

[01:32:29] Like that was too close for comfort for him.

[01:32:32] Yeah.

[01:32:32] Like I read it as too close for comfort because that part was true.

[01:32:36] That last bit was genuine humanity.

[01:32:38] And he recoils.

[01:32:39] And maybe call it, you can call it temptation, but I would have just called it like, have

[01:32:44] this realization that I'm having right before I die.

[01:32:47] And he doesn't want that either because he's not ready to accept that, the truth.

[01:32:51] Yeah.

[01:32:52] I mean, I guess it really depends.

[01:32:53] This is what I think the story boils down to.

[01:32:56] Like, I think that even if it's genuine, that doesn't mean it's true.

[01:33:00] So, okay, maybe she did in this last moment have a moment where I finally understand what

[01:33:06] everybody has been talking to me about in church my whole life about like what it actually

[01:33:11] means to love somebody unconditionally and empathize with somebody.

[01:33:15] But that doesn't make it true that the world is actually divine and that people do have

[01:33:22] like God within them.

[01:33:24] And so even though it's genuine from her point of view, when he shoots it, it seems like a

[01:33:30] tempting lie.

[01:33:31] And the lie isn't that it's, this is another of the Hail Marys she's throwing.

[01:33:36] The lie is that God exists and will redeem us and that there's justice in the world somehow.

[01:33:42] Yeah.

[01:33:42] Like if that's the reading, then I like, I I'm with you, but let me pitch to you this

[01:33:47] other way in which what she's saying could be a true thing.

[01:33:52] And that is to say that like the realization that she faces in the moment of death was that

[01:33:56] all of that surface Christianity was actually bullshit.

[01:33:59] And what she's saying when she says, you're, you're one of my children is more like a Buddhist

[01:34:04] realization that we are all together in this, that that's like the most genuine human sentiment

[01:34:11] that she has ever had that is over and above the Christian indoctrination and tropes and

[01:34:18] the theology.

[01:34:19] In this moment, the scales fell from her eyes and she was like, oh, maybe if only like we

[01:34:24] had actually had this realization our whole lives, like you're one of me, you're, you

[01:34:30] are part of me.

[01:34:31] Yeah.

[01:34:31] Like that kind of realization.

[01:34:32] So I don't think we're disagreeing except maybe like, and I didn't think I would be the

[01:34:37] one to be defending Christianity, but I think there is an interpretation that especially some

[01:34:42] Catholics have about Jesus's love where it is very Buddhist, like, and maybe it's not

[01:34:48] Catholics.

[01:34:48] Maybe this is the pro you know, like, but there's this idea that it is all just love of others

[01:34:54] and that all this other stuff is bullshit that gets corrupted by imperfect sinners.

[01:35:00] Right.

[01:35:00] But there is this actual illumination because, you know, like a lot of Buddhist and other like

[01:35:05] Eastern forms of meditation and like discourse will invoke Jesus's love.

[01:35:13] And by that, they don't mean anything involving like the historical Jesus and all the little

[01:35:18] stories, but more just that idea of the oceanic.

[01:35:21] Oceanic.

[01:35:22] Yes, exactly.

[01:35:23] The James oceanic feeling.

[01:35:25] And so that's why I don't think we disagree.

[01:35:27] I think, you know, whether you consider that as compatible with Christianity or transcending

[01:35:31] Christianity, I think the way, like one way to see it is Christianity in its true form

[01:35:37] is divorced from everything but that in the way that like the Eastern religions are, are

[01:35:43] at times just that, you know, like they don't, they don't have to pile on this extra machinery

[01:35:49] on the one truth, the one like sublime truth.

[01:35:53] Yeah.

[01:35:54] That makes sense.

[01:35:55] Like as I read the text and knowing Flannery O'Connor probably is into like some sort of

[01:36:00] deep Christian truth.

[01:36:01] Like I find it easy to read this as being like, oh, in the, in the end, she understood the

[01:36:08] true nature of what love is in, maybe in this Christian sense.

[01:36:12] And that she, in her writing of it wants to tell us that it's that that made him recoil.

[01:36:18] It wasn't the other stuff.

[01:36:19] It was that because that's like a hard thing to accept.

[01:36:22] Like the, the, that somebody else could truly love you like that.

[01:36:26] Right.

[01:36:26] He thought it was such a hard thing.

[01:36:27] All hypocrisy and bullshit.

[01:36:29] And here he gets a genuine glimpse.

[01:36:31] Yeah.

[01:36:31] So that's the optimistic reading.

[01:36:34] But I, I think in some ways it's like what he says, if there had been somebody to shoot

[01:36:39] her every minute of her life, in reality, life isn't that and there isn't justice.

[01:36:44] And maybe you can get an experience, this moment of sublimity at the end of your life when you're

[01:36:50] out of all other options.

[01:36:51] But like, if you look at the whole story itself, which is just a bunch of shallow, shitty people,

[01:36:58] like, it's just like, that's like the misfit.

[01:37:00] It's like, no, that's isn't, even if you did have a little moment of grace, that's not how

[01:37:05] the world really is.

[01:37:06] That's not how life really is.

[01:37:07] Totally.

[01:37:08] And like my only pitch then is that the very last thing that he says when he tells, when

[01:37:13] Bobby Lee says this was fun, he says, shut up, Bobby Lee.

[01:37:17] It's no real pleasure in life that contrasted with what he said before, which is like, if

[01:37:22] Jesus didn't do what he did, we might as well have the only pleasure we can get, which is

[01:37:25] like fucking with other people and burning down shit.

[01:37:28] Like that, her final gesture to him might have actually, even though I think he reacts just

[01:37:35] like you're saying, which is like, yeah, sure.

[01:37:37] Old lady, like when you're about to die, you express this true love to me, but that it still

[01:37:42] did something to him where now he no longer has the pleasure of others suffering because

[01:37:47] like something happened there.

[01:37:50] I mean, I think maybe he realizes that actually, like if his worldview is correct, there's no

[01:37:57] reason that killing and doing meanness should bring more pleasure than being good to other

[01:38:02] people.

[01:38:02] You know, it's like, that's like the, if God doesn't exist, everything is permitted, but

[01:38:08] that doesn't mean that you just go killing people, you know, like that doesn't follow

[01:38:13] from, we live in this godless void of just injustice and accident and cruelty.

[01:38:20] It's just like, okay, but there's no reason for you to contribute to that, you know?

[01:38:25] And so he realizes, oh, there is this other way.

[01:38:28] You can maybe like buy into some kind of transcendent love, but also like, even if that's bullshit,

[01:38:39] ultimately, so is what I'm doing.

[01:38:42] Yeah.

[01:38:42] You know, to me, then a central question is, did the misfit have a religious experience at

[01:38:49] the end?

[01:38:50] Yeah.

[01:38:50] And I can see both ways.

[01:38:52] And I wonder, so as you were talking, I was thinking, well, one way of reading this would

[01:38:58] be that when he says, I didn't see Jesus do all of those things, which were presumably

[01:39:03] loving things.

[01:39:04] And if I had, I would have been a different person.

[01:39:07] And if this woman, which I think Flannery O'Connor might believe, if this woman in her

[01:39:12] last act showed me Jesus, like his true nature.

[01:39:16] I saw it.

[01:39:16] I saw it.

[01:39:17] And so maybe I should change my life.

[01:39:19] And maybe he goes, just goes right back to being the misfit, but I'm curious whether

[01:39:22] or not we are to think that he truly had this moment.

[01:39:26] Yeah.

[01:39:27] I mean, I would totally buy, even with my darker interpretation, that he never kills anybody

[01:39:32] again.

[01:39:32] But I think it's because this woman took the pleasure out of him.

[01:39:37] She actually sucked the life out of it.

[01:39:38] Yeah, she just sucked the life out of him.

[01:39:40] Exactly.

[01:39:41] He's not anymore even going to be like kicking the back of car seats and, you know, insulting

[01:39:49] Tennessee for being too redneck, you know.

[01:39:51] If I made this into a movie, by the way, I would have it end with a misfit driving down

[01:39:55] the road and there actually being that old plantation house with the six columns and they find the

[01:40:00] panel and they like find all the silver and they live happily ever after.

[01:40:04] That would be, yeah.

[01:40:05] And the grandmother like looks down from heaven.

[01:40:08] I knew it was actually in Georgia.

[01:40:11] All the time.

[01:40:14] I was right.

[01:40:16] See Bailey?

[01:40:17] Bailey.

[01:40:17] Bailey.

[01:40:18] I apologize for calling me an old, stupid old cunt.

[01:40:26] All right.

[01:40:29] Good story.

[01:40:30] So good.

[01:40:31] I'll enjoy talking about it.

[01:40:33] I hope this comes out well.

[01:40:34] Yeah.

[01:40:35] Join us next time on Very Bad Wizards.

[01:41:19] Just a very bad.