Episode 331: Who's Your Law Daddy? (Plato's "Crito")

[00:00:00] Very Bad Wizards is a podcast with a philosopher, my dad, and psychologist Dave Pizarro, having an informal discussion about issues in science and ethics. Please note that the discussion contains bad words that I'm not allowed to say, and knowing my dad, some very inappropriate jokes. We don't need to do nothing. We do what we do is say. Entiendes, Mendez?

[00:00:27] Welcome to Very Bad Wizards. I'm Tamler Sommers from the University of Houston. Dave, there's a new Russiagate. But this time it's not Trump or Putin at the center of the scandal. It's you.

[00:01:30] On our last episode, you called Russia in the mid-1800s a Catholic country. But some of our listeners vociferously disagreed, saying it was Eastern Orthodox. How do you respond to these shocking allegations?

[00:01:46] Well, I'll fucking die on this hill. Eastern Orthodox is fucking Catholic. The Catholic Church split in two. And if anything, I feel like it's prejudice against the poor Easterners who, you know, they got like half of the church, but they don't get to be called Catholic. Like, it's the same fucking church. They just had a fight, you know? They're not Protestants. I mean, Protestants had a fight, too.

[00:02:12] Yeah. But Protestants left. Like, these guys were like, fuck it. Like, your pope is the wrong pope. Our pope is the right pope. Like, we are the Catholic Church. This is like St. Peter's, like, true lineage. So, I'm just saying, it's called the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church. That's all I'm saying. If you want to use the narrow sense of Roman Catholic because you watch The Sopranos and you like Italians so much or whatever, like, fine, go ahead. But don't correct me, you know?

[00:02:38] He doesn't like that. He doesn't take kindly to that. I would just let it go and say, yeah, I guess, you know, it's not the most natural way of using Catholic, but it is technically. But Dave gets very, like, your Latin American blood gets hot. Yeah. It's only for some things. I don't know what it's for exactly. Maybe it was the flippant nature of the admonishment. Because if somebody said, hey, I don't think Catholic is used that much for Eastern Orthodox.

[00:03:06] Like, so it was a little confusing. I'd have been like, yeah, maybe it's a little confusing. I, you know, because I edited it kind of, it sounded a little weird to me too, but like taking it out would have been awkward because it was, you were making a point about why a cock, a cock, a cock, a cockovich or cocky cockovich, like, you know, that story about his name. And I was going to look up whether that was true or not. But then I was like, I forgot. I figured, you know what you're doing.

[00:03:35] I mean, for the record, in my mind, as I said that, I was like, well, hopefully people understand that I mean Eastern Orthodox Catholic. Like it literally was in my mind. Yeah. And you called it Eastern Orthodox later in the episode too. It's not like I didn't know. Yeah. Hopefully people will treat this with the generosity of the modern internet, you know? So you're either with me or you're against me is all I'm saying. I was more like, my name is Paul. This is between y'all.

[00:04:03] If any of our listeners are Eastern Orthodox and they write in and say, we do not fucking think of ourselves as Catholic, I will stand corrected. Okay. I'll say that. Yeah. All right. With that out of the way, that bit of unpleasantness. Now we can go to our episode for today. In the main episode, it's another. Another education that you will get in our Back to Basics series. Back to Basic.

[00:04:29] Back to Basics in 80s font. You always have to think of it in your 90s font. And we are going to be discussing Plato's dialogue, The Crito, which is a dialogue that takes place when Socrates is in prison a couple days before he is scheduled to drink the hemlock and die. Which, spoiler alert, he does. Gotta die of something.

[00:04:53] But this is a dialogue where one of his friends tries to convince him to escape. And, well, we'll have to wait till the second segment to see what happens. But first, we are going to do, what would you call this? Contrarian corner. That's good. That's pretty good. Cinema edition. That's awesome. That was just off the top of your head. It was off the dome, baby. How about Catholic contrarian corner?

[00:05:23] Yeah, I think mine is more Eastern Orthodox. But yeah, contrarian corner cinema edition is great. My thought was something like the Aladdin meme where all the knives are, you know, like top three movies where you're the Aladdin meme, but yours is way better. I mean, that's a good artwork for contrarian corner. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:46] All right. So we're picking three movies that we are in the minority about. Like, how did you think about this? Well, it started with you texting me your opinion about a particular movie. And so I was like, which will come up. Which will come up. Yeah.

[00:06:02] It's hard because like there's always going to be critics of every movie. But these are things that I think just generally like popular, like high critics ratings across the board, possibly award winners, crowd favorites, things that make people's top lists all the time that we think of as ass. Yeah. Or if not ass, just so overrated. Yeah, exactly.

[00:06:25] The way I thought about it is these are ones where I might be on probation or suspended or in one case, my number one may be permanently expelled from the cinephile community. Like these are cinephile movies that I've picked that I just can't get behind like everybody else.

[00:06:48] Yeah. I do want to walk back my ass thing because if anything, I think the movies that I'm talking about are harmed by their overrating because like if they weren't overrated, they'd be decent. But in looking things up, I was like, I'm not cinephile enough to have things that are going to get me kicked out of any anything. You like to do that. I'm just a caveman. Meanwhile, you're texting me about like, oh man, I just saw the friends of Eddie Coyle. That shit rules. You know, that's a classic cinephile movie.

[00:07:18] My former student, Andres Montalegro, put me onto that. It's good, right? It's fun. Good. Yeah. All right. Why don't I start with one that is clearly not going to get me kicked out of anything? But it's an opinion that at the time I had immediately after watching the movie. And I think that the world has come around to this, but you tell me. Forrest Gump. You like it? I mean, no, just like I feel like that's not one for this. That's because you're too hoity-toity. You don't realize how many people love this shit.

[00:07:48] And not to mention that it won Best Picture. I mean, Crash won Best Picture. That wouldn't mean it could be in this list, right? No, but I feel like Forrest Gump belongs. All right. So you don't like it. Why? Life is like a box of chocolates? No? Yeah. Like it's simple in that way. Like I don't like it because of something that I think like is I think a more substantive criticism.

[00:08:11] Like obviously it's emotion candy and it's like let's make you feel good about like all these terrible events in the world that happened by putting this like mentally challenged guy smiling and shaking hands. But I really disliked like it felt like a nihilistic movie to me in the wrapping of a feel-good movie where everything just weirdly by coincidence happens to this like kind of, you know, like mentally challenged guy. You can say it now.

[00:08:40] And like it didn't happen because he's particularly good like or he's particularly talented or anything like that. It's just literally just sheer fucking fate. But like generally it's the kind of emotional schlock that I think is, you know, doesn't make for good movies but occasionally makes for Oscar winning movies. Yeah. I mean like you're better off not liking Forrest Gump to be in the cinephile club than liking Forrest Gump.

[00:09:07] There are jokes in other movies about like how much people hate Forrest Gump. See, that's why I'm saying I am just a caveman. I'm minor not aimed at cinephile. Like, you know, these are like these are aimed at like the people I grew up with who think like Forrest Gump is amazing. Is American Beauty going to be your next one? Great film. Great film. I guess I just have friends who like watching movies aimed for the normal people.

[00:09:35] There's actually in This Is The End, you know that movie? Yeah. They talk about this where Craig Robinson says to Jay Baruchel, you're the kind of person, you're a hipster, you probably don't like Forrest Gump. You're Jay, right? Yeah. South boy? Yeah. Hey, how you doing? Good to see you. Likewise. Likewise. Craig, man. It's Emma. Oh, hi. Hi there. Did you just tell? Visiting him? Yeah. Just for a little visit, you know. I'm trying to not come down here very much. I don't really love it here. You don't like L.A.?

[00:10:04] I'm just not really into the L.A. lifestyle. What lifestyle are you into? Look at him. He's like a hipster, right? No. No, I'm not a hipster at all. Yeah. Yeah. You do seem to hate a lot of things and the bottom of your pants are awful tight. No, I just don't like Los Angeles. That doesn't make me a hipster. I bet you hate movies that are universally loved. I don't even... You like Forrest Gump? No. No, it's a horrendous piece of shit. Life is like a box of chocolates, no?

[00:10:32] Yeah. No, I'm familiar with it. You never know what you're going to get. And he says, Emma Watson from, you know, Hermione is there at this party, but she's as Emma Watson. She goes, life is like a box of chocolates, no? Which is a very like something that we say all the time in the house. The thing is, movies like this every once in a while come back around for a certain kind of hipster. Totally. I could see that happening.

[00:11:01] Truman Show is actually... I mean, not... I just blew my name. Forrest Gump is actually good. I bet that you might have even gone a couple cycles. I think yours that you just edited out is in the same category. I was going to say. So my pick is... I don't think it's in the same category, but it's close, certainly closest to that than my other two. And it is The Truman Show.

[00:11:26] The Peter Ware film from, I believe, 1998, starring Jim Carrey, Laura Linney, Ed Harris. I saw this when it came out and I didn't really like it. And, like, I was a pain in the ass back then. Like, I could be snotty about a movie with no good reason except that I was being kind of an asshole about it.

[00:11:49] And so I thought this was a good candidate for that based on the fact that, like, a lot of the, you know, critics that I respect and film podcasts, they all feel extremely positively about this movie. So then I watched it for the first time again this past weekend. And actually, like, I thought the first, like, 45 minutes to an hour were really good. And I was like, okay, I was just a piece of shit back then. But then, I don't know, like, there's something about it that just doesn't work for me.

[00:12:20] Like, the sort of high concept, the horror elements of it I was really appreciating. But when it, you know, again, towards the end, it just, like, it doesn't make sense anymore. And then when you think about it for, like, 30 seconds afterwards, you're like, well, what is this world exactly where you could do this, like, massive social experiment? Every time they show the outside world, it's just normal people in a bar, you know, like, in their houses.

[00:12:45] Like, but then, like, you would have to be some kind of psychopath to be a part of this. Like, think of these actors, one of whom was chosen when he was, like, five years old or six years old to be friends with him and to go to school with this guy. And, like, their parents did that. And, you know, someone on Letterboxd was like, I don't think you're supposed to get all logical about this. But it doesn't present itself as, like, a kind of surreal movie or a dreamy movie.

[00:13:13] Like, it presents itself as, you know, like a reality. Obviously not Truman's world is not a reality. But I think to heighten that, they give the outside world, the glimpses that we see, is very recognizably seems like our world. And I know that's probably part of the point and the satire of all that. But it doesn't work. And the main thing that I really can't stand is the end where Christoph, the director, played by Ed Harris, who is... With his little fucking hat. Yeah. I like Ed Harris a lot. I love Ed Harris.

[00:13:43] And he's not bad in it. Like, I don't think this is his fault. But the stuff he does doesn't make any sense. Like, Truman knows that it's a TV show or he starts to suspect it and has been suspecting it for a while. But at least with there's 30 or 40 minutes to go, he knows it's a TV show and he's trying to leave. And they keep figuring out ways to keep him there. And then at the end where he definitely knows it's a TV show and he's, you know, on the boat, like conquering his fear of the water, which they have put in him. And that's supposedly totally fine.

[00:14:13] World. He's literally like tries to drown him. Christoph, the Ed Harris character does. And then when he hits the wall where it's like, okay, it's not a horizon. It's actually the edge of the studio wall. He's still trying to get him to come back. For what? Like, the whole point of this show is that he thinks it's real. If he thinks he's in a TV show, it's not a show anymore. It betrays his grand vision of, like, what it's going to be. So it just makes no sense. His motivations make no sense.

[00:14:43] Like, I don't get it. Like, I don't understand why people think this is, you know, it's prophetic. Prescient, Tamler. Prescient. Yeah. So, I mean, I don't, like, it's a pretty anodyne movie to me. But I do remember, like, having good feelings when everybody's rooting for him. You know, they're all watching him live and they're all rooting for him to leave. The same people who were fine with them thinking that because of him, his father died drowning. Yes. So that he would say those same, like, lovely people. The audiences are fickle. Yeah, yeah, they're fickle.

[00:15:13] I know, and that's what annoys me, too, is people saying, that's the point. That's how we are, you know? What I was going to say, it's like a reality TV Rudy. Like, have you seen Rudy? The reality TV one? Oh, the sports movie. No, no, the sports movie. Yeah. Long time ago. Where, you know, everybody's rooting for him. You know, he sucks. That's how, like, I'm feeling at the end of that, where it's like a reality TV version, where it was just like, yeah, yeah, go guy who took 30 whatever years to figure out that you were on a reality TV show.

[00:15:42] But then what I was going to say is, do you know about this show, The Jury? Yes. I saw that season, actually. Oh, you did? Yeah. I haven't watched it. But, like, all of the things you were saying about, like, are the fucked up ethics, the ethics of people who have to just completely lie about their lives in order for this one person to be like... Yeah. It's microcosm-y of Truman Show. Yeah. No, for sure. And, you know, like, listening after my initial sort of reaction to it, I listened to a couple of things.

[00:16:11] And they said some of the things that came after The Truman Show, and they sounded like horrible. And then I remembered, what's it called? Jury duty. Jury duty. Yeah. I remembered that. And I remember thinking, that's kind of fucked up that they're doing it. And I do think it's fucked up. And I'm sort of surprised that it's legal or how they do around it. Yeah, me too. I mean, I didn't watch it. But it's not a person's whole life. And in particular, it's not an actor's whole life.

[00:16:39] Like, these actors have to, like, be there practically the whole time. Like, they might get, like, a little vacation. And then often, they're called in to do some more fucked up manipulative stuff to keep him there so he doesn't think it's real. And for his best friend, Marlon, this is something his parents signed him up for when he was five. And it's like, okay, so this is some, like, horrible dystopia. Like, some Japanese movie or something like that.

[00:17:08] It should be a lot darker than it is. Yeah. It would be an interesting, super dark movie. Yeah. And it's funny, because I blamed, I love Peter Ware. Like, I think Picnic and Hanging Rock is one of my favorite movies. And I really like Master and Commander. Master and Commander's good. Dead Poets Society, I'm sure, is in your top ten. That could go here, too. Except that I think, like, you know, a lot of people who call themselves cinephiles have mixed feelings about that movie.

[00:17:35] But Picnic and Hanging Rock is, like, one of my, like, 20 favorite movies of all time. And I like him a lot. So I blamed the writer, Andrew Nichol, who wrote and directed Gattaca, which I also really dislike, for similar reasons. Although, I don't remember having, like, internal problems with the story and the motivation. Just thinking it was not that interesting. But apparently, he tried to make it darker. That was the original script. It was going to take place in a fake New York that was, like, crime-ridden and stuff like that.

[00:18:04] And it was Peter Ware's idea to, like, no, this has got to be warm and funny. And, like, these are this comfort food for people. And that's the thing. Like, I just don't think this stuff is well thought out. Like, if it's comfort food and then they're all rooting, then it's not that they were originally laughing at him. But now they're rooting for him. They were always kind of liked him, you know? But then how are they okay with how they're doing it? And, like, what could have possibly compelled Laura Linney to just devote her whole life to this?

[00:18:32] Like, to doing ads conspicuously in the middle of, like, breakfast? And to, like, practically spending her whole life pretending to be married to this guy? Yeah. I think that what we're hitting is a deep fear that you've always had that we've all been Truman showing you. I do feel that. And if you want to know why, like, I'm getting paid a lot of money to do this, you know? You're only seeing half of our Patreon. I'm seeing, like, seven figures every month because of the dedication I've shown.

[00:19:02] You know, a lot of things are starting to make sense now. But the funny thing is, like, I am prone to, like, actually having the thought that you just said. I remember. I will agree with you that The Truman Show is confused about what it is. Because it's not that it's, like, unrealistic or whatever. Like, that would be a dumb, that would be, like, a very facile complaint. Yeah. It's that it is, like, on its own terms doesn't make sense. Yeah. It's internally incoherent, I think.

[00:19:31] Whereas I think Gattaca, like, I know Gattaca has, like, a little bit of a fake deep problem. Yes. But it's dark enough. Like, I think that I've always enjoyed it. It makes sense. Okay. So my next one, like, I had this problem making this list where long-time listeners will already know this. Yeah. But this, to me, belongs in the Forrest Gump category, and that is Parasite. That's a good one. Now, that, I feel like, is in the spirit of this exercise. Yeah. Exercise.

[00:19:59] I feel like, in time, like, I will be vindicated for this opinion. But it's, like, a movie that just is too try-hardy, on-the-nose critique with, like, a bit of that fake deepness in there. Like, Snowpiercer has this, like, metaphor, you know, this, like, it's like an allegory where, as you move forward on the train, like, you're going up in class, like, at least that's so

[00:20:27] on-the-nose that you don't think that he's trying to, like, be clever about it. But Parasite, you know, with, like, the two poor families and the ones, like, that reveal that they were living in the house, like, that, to me, is just, like, a worse attempt. That there's even a lower class than a sort of hustler, working-class family. Yeah. And that they kind of turn against each other is, I think, part of that critique of how you turn the lower classes against each other.

[00:20:53] Like, as long as there's somebody below you, you just think, I'm good and I'm out for myself. Yeah. There's a little bit of poverty porn there. So here's where I disagree. Like, I think this is a great pick. Like, I respect the pick because I think it so clearly counts for this contrarian corner because everybody loved Parasite. And I am someone that really liked it. You know, like, do I think it's his best movie? No.

[00:21:23] Do I think Bong Joon-ho is, like, I think Bong Joon-ho is slightly overrated as a director, although I like him. But, like, I think, like, Park Jan-wook is in a different league than him. Different category. Yeah. But I really like that movie because it's just a fun ride. Like, it just keeps, like, surprising you in all these different ways. And, yeah, I think there is some interesting stuff about class in the movie.

[00:21:47] And I think it's not the obvious level stuff, which is practically as obvious as Snowpiercer. Like, the middle family, before they move into the house, they live in this house that's, like, half their window is, like, they're half underground. So it floods easily. And every time they go to the rich house, they have to walk up. So all that is, you know, pretty obvious. But there's stuff about, like, the dad really liking the rich woman that he drives for, you know?

[00:22:16] Like, he starts having a crush on her and thinking she's nice and seeing the quiet desperation in her eyes and how his wife has no patience for that. Not because she's jealous, just because she has this line where, of course, she's nice. Like, rich people can afford to be nice, you know? And so I think some of that stuff is good. And, yeah, I just like the surprises. But I respect the pick, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. You know, this is an unfair criticism to say that you won awards.

[00:22:43] But there is a kind of, like, Oscars favor, a sort of safe critique. Yeah. That's, like, kind of feels like it might be radical for, like, the Hollywood crowd. But, yeah. Yeah. I think at the end of the day, I think that the art didn't hit me. Yeah. It'll be interesting to see what you think of Boots Riley's new movie. Yeah. Because, you know, Sorry to Bother You had a kind of similar, it was a little more absurdist.

[00:23:08] But, you know, not trying to hide its politics and doing it with a kind of comedy. And this one, his new movie, which I saw an advanced screening of, is, I think, up a level. It's interesting because you're right about, like, there is, like, the critique is so, like, facing you, like, forward. Yeah. But the absurdist aspects of it, I think, is what, like, made me enjoy it. You know, and Snowpiercer also has absurdism. Yeah, right, right.

[00:23:36] And Parasite just did, for some reason, that it didn't evoke that in me. I don't know if he was going for that. Like, maybe it didn't. Some people, it just didn't evoke it in me. Yeah. Yeah, fair enough. It's a different thing. You know, Snowpiercer is another one where Ed Harris, his character kind of makes no sense and harms the movie a bit. I forget what happens there. It's a similar part, actually. Like, he's, like, running the train. Like, he's the head guy in charge of, like, the kind of god of the train. That's so funny.

[00:24:04] I feel like allegory doesn't make for good art. Rarely. Yeah. But I did, like, that's, I actually liked both of those movies. He's a snowpiercer. Yeah.

[00:24:43] Yeah. Like, Raiders of the Lost Ark. I think everybody loves. But there's one movie that everybody loves, I think, or at least really likes and agrees as great and doesn't suffer the Spielberg problems. Everyone approves of this movie and thinks it's like a masterpiece. Can I guess? Yes. What do you think? I was going to go with Jaws, but I don't know that people think it's a masterpiece. But it's not Jaws, is it? Yes. It's Jaws. Oh, good. Yeah. No.

[00:25:13] Totally. Totally. I think that's, you're absolutely right that, like, that's a Spielberg movie that is beyond reproach. Yeah. It's got, like, a 100% approval rating and the cinephiles revere it and think it was. See? Because he doesn't reveal the shark, you know? I didn't get that he didn't reveal the shark. Now that you say that, though. Yeah. Audiences were afraid to go to the beach that summer, Taylor. Yeah. This is another movie. Like, I don't think it's ass.

[00:25:43] But I also don't think it's good. Like, it's fine and there's some great scenes, but, like, this is something that's weird. And maybe this is a little like my issue with the Truman Show and maybe it's my problem. But I can't get past the mayor in the movie. Like, the mayor is just, like, willfully, like, damning his tiny town for the money, for the tourism. Like, yes, people are getting killed, but we're keeping the beach open. Like, he's so ridiculous.

[00:26:12] And I struggle to get past that. Now, I could if I fetishized as much as everyone else, like Robert Shaw and Richard Dreyfuss. And, like, you know, it's got this great cast. But even those scenes I find a little corny. And, yeah, like, I'm not into the characters. I respect the way it's shot, as always, with him. But I don't love it. Like, to me, it's like a B-minus movie. And I think to most people it is a perfectly executed genre piece, you know? Yeah, no, that's good.

[00:26:42] Like, it's something Spielberg, I would think, is very proud of. Like, as a filmmaker, like, whatever he did with Jaws, like, changed the landscape. Yeah, which it did, for sure. But, like, what it changed matters. I've always, like, I haven't seen Jaws in decades, so I don't remember that much. But with Spielberg, like, it's hard for him to beat the charges of corny on a lot of his stuff. Yeah. And just, you know, overly sentimental to the point of nausea sometimes. Yeah.

[00:27:11] But damn, he can shoot a film. Yes. Like, that camera movement and, like, the long takes on the faces that I think is there in Jaws. You know? Like, the reaction shots. Like, that's good stuff. Yeah. Soderbergh famously did a cut of Raiders of the Lost Ark with no sound in black and white and, like, to some, like, weird music that had nothing to do with the movie.

[00:27:37] Just to point out how you could tell everything that was happening even if you didn't hear the sound. And, yeah, he's an expert craftsman. You know, like, he's someone that cinephiles have come around on. It used to be you could be cool and not like him. And now it's like, oh, actually, he's the greatest genius of them all. You know? And I just don't, like, I don't know. Like, there's not a single movie of his that would crack my top 100, though. I don't think. Maybe Raiders. Yeah.

[00:28:05] Raiders is definitely my favorite. Like, that is, to me, the perfect genre of film. Yeah. It's super fun. And I love it. And I've seen it probably 10 times. So maybe that would crack my top 100. Like, AI is my number four. I've never seen it. Is that good? No. Is it not? I saw it once. No, it's bad. It's like 18 hours long and doesn't go anywhere. That's another one that people like. Like, I was going to see it. They must have come back around to it. Yeah. They must have come back around to it. Yeah.

[00:28:33] I think it's through the looking glass with a bunch of his. You know, there's some that everybody likes, but I don't think a lot of people love. Like, Minority Report, Catch Me If You Can. Those are good. But, you know, they're good. I feel like that's where those movies top out. All right. My last one. If you are a Patreon supporter and you happen to listen to our Ask Us Anything series. I do not support this.

[00:28:59] I think Sinners is one of the most overrated movies in a long time. I'm so not with you on this. I don't understand it. Like, it's so weird. Like, I feel like I'm in a. Like, I'm fucking being gaslit about this movie. You're in The Truman Show, maybe. It's like a weird pastiche of stories put together that don't really make sense.

[00:29:20] It's, it's like, again, very like on the nose about the points that it's trying to make, even though like in the end, like I'm not quite sure what those points are. So it's both those things at the same time. I mean, given that those two things are contradictory, that should signal to you that maybe it's not that on the nose. So, which is clearly the thing that you hate. No, it's like trying to be on the nose, but it's like that what is the themes?

[00:29:46] Like, let me have like, oh, here's an on the nose scene about how like, you know, the history of black music where I'm going to like, in case you didn't get it, let me actually show you. Like, the person from like the whatever twerking and then the person playing jazz and the person like, like it doesn't trust its audience to like understand any subtlety. But that scene is just a joyous, surreal, supernatural like celebration.

[00:30:13] It's not trying to like hit you over the head with anything. Like, it's not saying like, but the white man appropriated this music. It's just showing you like all these different generations at a time where this like woman who clearly is in touch with mystical spirits, like literally talks about how the future and the past can merge under certain conditions. Like, I don't get your view on that scene. It's an awesome scene.

[00:30:38] Just say that you're like in touch with like the spirits of the ancestors and that you're, you know, prophetic about the future. But like to have to just sit there and show me like a person twerking from the 2000s. Like, it's like, it's bad cinema. That's what they show you. It's about images. It's not about someone telling you something. No, it's about emotions. It's about, yeah, that's right. It's not about someone telling you something. Like, this movie feels like it's telling you something. It says the things so many times. It's about megaphoning. What? Like the message about appropriation.

[00:31:08] About appropriation. About like, you know, like. What is it saying about appropriation? Like, I don't get this. Well, what do you think it's saying with the relationship with music and why the vampires are like getting this kid specifically? Like, what is it saying to you? I mean, this is the thing. It's a little hard to know because, you know, the Irish immigrants at the time who have their own kind of music and community feel that that actually is kind of tempting. And yes, they're vampires.

[00:31:37] And I agree that it is probably about appropriation in some sense, but it's not clear like exactly how because I think it's like not on the nose. I mean, that's the weird thing, right? Like they're vampires. They're like they're finding the black kid who's the best at the music and they're going to take him because of his talent. So the vampires, like, OK, like culture vultures, you know, like they're sucking like the musical power out of like the black kid. But why? Who knows?

[00:32:05] And so, yeah, it's not about white people because the actual bad people like, by the way, remember the KKK guys that they bought that barn off of? Like they actually hate black people for real. Like so like let's have like a scene where he's going to just go fucking, you know, like ape shit on the KKK at the end where it's like, what movie is this? This is like it just lacks any kind of consistency.

[00:32:24] I agree that that is not my favorite part of the movie and I kind of wish that I didn't bother me like it bothered you, but I think it's an outlier in an otherwise like pretty flawlessly executed movie that is so much fun. And how did that not bother you where all of a sudden it turns into this like weird action? I'm going to shoot up all the five minute scene at most in a two hour and 30 minute movie.

[00:32:47] But it is like a crucial ending part of this story where it's like, really, you're going to take the five minutes to show us this like Rambo like guy shooting up the KKK when it's like not even part of the whole vampire Irish music thing. Like, look, I think it was to get people to walk out with a smile on their face. A bunch of fucking white supremacists are killed, but also to show that smoke is it smoke that does that? That's another problem.

[00:33:16] Yeah, you know, it's definitely the more dour brother, you know, like I think like he didn't want to live anymore in this world. And so what's a better way of going out than taking out a bunch of KKK guys? But like, you know, part of why he didn't want to live in this world besides just the racism, the fundamental racism of Jim Crow South is that like his family just like murdered and burned to death in a lot of cases and or became vampires.

[00:33:46] So like that is, you know, that is kind of tough. Yeah, it's just weird that that's how you choose to like end the story. Like to me, what that says is you just weren't quite clear on the story. And if you need to give your audience like a feel good thing by having him kill a bunch of like actual villains, then it's like, well, I guess then you're just trying to make us feel good because you didn't trust that you could end the movie with us not feeling good. Like, I don't know.

[00:34:11] Like what's this is also surprising to me from you of all people where you're just like you would say I would think like I could channel you as I'm watching this thinking like just end the movie on theme. Like don't have like. Well, then I think like the post credit scene is a good ending of the movie where it's the 80s and buddy and it's not buddy guy. It's actually Sammy, but it's played by buddy guy in that club. And it's Haley Seinfeld. Yeah, and he's an old man.

[00:34:40] That's a really cool ending. And so that's how I left the movie, not with the KKK scene, which exactly which again, I didn't hate. I just think like in another cut of the movie, you could leave it out and it would probably be a slightly better movie. So here, but like it's important for me to end by like at least saying I thought like the first half of the movie was great. I thought it was the whole thing was shot beautifully. But like I feel like it needed some discipline and some trust in its audience to just be able to be more subtle.

[00:35:11] Yeah, it's also like I upgraded my audio setup in my movie. And that was one of the first movies I watched. And holy shit was that fucking awesome. It's amazing looking. And sounding. And sound, yeah. Cinematographer deserved to win for that. Absolutely, yeah. Okay, this is, I'm afraid to even say this one. At least it's not racist like you're number one. What was another black movie that I was going to do? And I was like, I can't have two black movies. Like that would really be bad. Like do the right thing. Moonlight.

[00:35:41] And sinners, yeah. I actually, you know it's like underrated movie is Moonlight. Like even though people love it and it's on the list and it won Best Picture. I never saw it. I never watched it. It's awesome. Like it's amazing. Yeah. Okay, so this last one I need to preface by saying Howard Hawks is one of my favorite directors, you know, from the 30s, 40s, 50s. Absolutely just banger after banger.

[00:36:06] And in our Noir Summers series that we did on Patreon where we did all these old noirs, we talked about Billy Wilder and how he works in so many genres. Like I think that's even more true of Howard Hawks. Like he did like classics and screwball comedy and noir and westerns, war movies like Red River, The Big Sleep, Only Angel Has to Have Wings, Rio Bravo, like His Girl Friday. I love all of those movies.

[00:36:33] His Girl Friday I think is probably my favorite screwball comedy of all time. But when you look at like top 100 lists of like the 20th century and you look for Howard Hawks films, the most likely one you'll find, really the only one of them that's reliably on all of those lists is Bringing Up Baby. And I will say that I don't think Bringing Up Baby is very good. I don't think it's very funny.

[00:37:02] I think it's kind of annoying. And the fact that people like it more or even put it in the same category as like His Girl Friday, even though they both have Cary Grant, you know, Bringing Up Baby as Katherine Hepburn, like it's mystifying to me. I've never liked this movie. I've never gotten it. You know, I watch it every 15 years thinking I must be crazy given how much everyone else loves it. I just don't like it very much. I wish I could defend it. I've never seen it. I wish I could say something.

[00:37:32] I wish I could argue with you. I mean, you would like it because there's almost no black people in it. But was it produced by Jews? I'm sure. But yeah, no, the big thing is there's a tiger in it and she has a tiger that she calls Baby. Like the whole joke of the movie is basically that. It's like Alf, you know, like what if an alien was on the thing?

[00:37:56] And this is what if a like depression era socialite had a tiger and Cary Grant plays this like nebbishy dinosaur fossil like archaeologist or whatever. Yeah, it's not good. It's not romantic. Like I love those two and the Philadelphia story. One of my favorite movies. Like give me Katherine Hepburn and Cary Grant, but not in Bringing Up Baby. And I've said it. Somehow I can't explain why, Tamler.

[00:38:23] It is extra hipster of you to shit on a movie from 1937 or whatever and be worried that people are going to revoke your cinephile card. This is like when when audio was just introduced. No, actually, like you don't have to be like a huge cinephile to think Bringing Up Baby is one of like the best like comedies of, you know, of that era, the golden era, the early golden era of film.

[00:38:50] I don't think I've ever seen this on the list, but I believe you. I'm not saying like that's I mean, I think we're just looking at different lists. My list have Forrest Gump. You need to upgrade your lists. I think my top movies of whatever just doesn't go back to 1930s. Oh, there's King Kong. Bringing Up Baby. I thought you were going to say Big Sleep, even though you mentioned it. I was going to. That's what I would have been upset. Yeah.

[00:39:20] Yeah. It was really, really good. It's probably not my favorite noir, but it's really, really good. Oh, you know what I just saw out of the past? Oh, yeah, that's good. It's good. Yeah. I liked it. I liked it, too. The fucking actresses. Like, I loved her. Jane Greer, I guess. I don't think I've seen her in anything else. Dude, I know. She has these like smoky good looks. I don't know how to describe it. Like when she's in that like bar and Acapulco and like I could see throwing it all away.

[00:39:50] I feel bad nutting to like 30s, 40s movie stars. Well, because she's like she stayed a working actress and was like in Murder, She Wrote's in the 80s. You know, like. Yeah. She was sexy. All right. Has your card been revoked properly? Yes. And yours, too. I do admire. I totally reject the Sinner's pick, although it clearly fits. But the Parasite pick, I think there's a chance you will be a little bit vindicated about it.

[00:40:20] I know. I want to plot some of these things over time to see like whatever Metacritics by year. And for the record, you have some impressive like notches in your belt with The Bear. What's another one recently? Well, Hamilton. You like that I predicted Hamilton was going to be corny. Yeah. Hamilton. There was a time where that was. I know. You didn't really see it. No, I heard it. You heard it. Like some of the songs. Yeah.

[00:40:48] Or I would see like clips of like, oh, wow. It's like rapping, but it's about history. Yeah. You were, as you like to say pejoratively, you were on the nose. I was early to the scene of the crowd. All right. We'll be right back to talk about the Crichter.

[00:42:12] Welcome back to Very Bad Wizards. This is the time where we'd like to take a moment and thank all of our listeners who reach out, who get in touch with us, who email us, all the different ways that you communicate with us. If you'd like to email us, email us at verybadwizards at gmail.com. We read all the emails still. We just don't have time to respond to all but a fraction of them.

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[00:45:32] We enjoy doing those, and they do tend to run long. All right, thank you so much for all your support. We really appreciate it. Let's get back to the episode and Plato's Crito. All right, let's get to our main segment. We're going to be talking about Plato's dialogue, the Crito, part of our intermittent Back to Basics series. The last one I think that we did, well, it might have been Freud. It might have been a psychology one, or was it the Euthyphro?

[00:46:02] I think it was Euthyphro. Yeah. So if so, that's fitting because these dialogues, the Euthyphro, the Apology, which is the Euthyphro takes place a couple days before the trial. The Apology is the account of the trial. Crito is an account of him talking to one of his friends while in prison, and then the fourth in this quadrilogy. What do you call that? Quadrilogy? Sounds right to me.

[00:46:32] Is the Phaedo, a fascinating dialogue that we should do at some point, the depiction of Socrates' death. But this is a short little dialogue that is, I would say, somewhat straightforward for a Plato dialogue. You know, it's very clear what it's about. It reaches a definite conclusion. I don't know if there's a ton of different, like, interpretive possibilities compared to a lot of his dialogues.

[00:46:56] It is the story of Socrates being offered by one of his friends, Crito, the opportunity to escape, and him turning that opportunity down. I thought I would just give a little background for some listeners who may not know about Socrates' trial and how it was that he got here.

[00:47:19] So, Socrates, when he was 70 years old, was brought to trial by a private Athenian citizen. That's how it worked then. It would just be private citizens prosecuting other private citizens, and they would bring a charge themselves, and then a large jury, they had like 500-person juries, would vote, and it was just whatever the majority would say would determine guilt.

[00:47:48] And then after that, they would determine sentence. The sentencing phase is kind of interesting the way they do it. So, the accuser, or at least one of the accusers, the one that we see in Plato's dialogue, The Apology, Miletus, he brings the charge of blasphemy against the gods or not believing in the old gods, introducing new gods. So, that was the first accusation, and the second was corrupting the youth.

[00:48:16] And so, in the trial, Socrates is able to cross-examine Miletus. Miletus is able to cross-examine Socrates, and all of this is done in front of this massive jury. And then at the end of that process, which is one version of it is recorded in The Apology, there's also a xenophon account of Socrates' trial. Well, we know that this really happened. We don't know exactly, like, what was said in these cases.

[00:48:44] But this is a real event. And in real life, as well as in The Apology, Socrates is found guilty. He's found guilty of the charges. So then in the sentencing phase, the way that works is the prosecutor offers one sentence, and then the defendant offers another sentence. And then the jury will vote again. They have to choose one of those two sentences.

[00:49:12] So, Miletus chooses death by Hemlock, and then Socrates now, and if you are the defendant, like, if you're thinking about this in terms of game theory, right, you want to pick the lowest sentence that will still get them to vote for you, right? But Socrates says, look, I think that I am guilty of only one thing, which is trying to bring out the best in my fellow Athenians

[00:49:40] and thinking about ethics in the best possible way, because at least I admit that I know nothing where they believe they know things. And so I think my punishment should be that I dine with all the Olympians, who are also magnificent athletes, but here I am, like an athlete of the mind, an athlete of the soul. And so I should get to dine with them. And so that was his offer.

[00:50:08] And the jury was so offended by that, by the kind of arrogance of that. I don't think I knew that. Like, I think I'm learning that for the first time. That's hilarious. And obviously, like, a fuck you to the... It was a total fuck you. And the irony is that... So then they meet and vote again, and a larger majority of the jury voted for death over Socrates' sentence, then voted that he was guilty in the first place. So even like a big segment,

[00:50:37] like 50 people who voted him innocent still voted for him to get the death penalty because they were offended by his arrogance. Now, there's a lot in real life of doubt about why these charges came up. Some people think it's because he was in the bag of the Spartans in the Peloponnesian War. Some people think, you know. But by all accounts, something along these lines happen where he's in prison, waiting to be executed, and a friend comes

[00:51:07] and gives him this opportunity to escape. And one of the things that appears to be true is the Athenians were like sick of him and did think probably that he was a bad influence on the children, and... But I don't think they wanted him to die. Socrates gave them no alternative with that alternative punishment. So I think it is true that it wouldn't have been that hard to convince the warden to look the other way with a little bribe.

[00:51:36] And then Socrates is exiled, which is honestly what people wanted in the first place. They just wanted him to fuck out of Athens, to leave them alone and leave their kids alone because their kids were all, you know, he was like a Jordan Peterson. You know? I was literally thinking, like, do you think they viewed him as a Jordan? Yeah. And can I just ask real quick, like, it seems to be clear from this, or not clear, like implied, that had he just offered

[00:52:05] a sentence of, like, expulsion from Athens, the jury probably would have gone for it. Yes. Like, I think that was clear from the get-go. I think that was probably what the jury expected. And had he done it, certainly in the credo, the credo, the credo, I've heard it pronounced both ways, but for whatever reason, I'm calling it the credo. Credo's good because credo sounds too much like C-R-E-D-O. Yeah. So I approve. Anyway, yeah, I think that would have been best case scenario for all involved,

[00:52:32] except maybe the homicidally crazed Miletus. So the point is, is that, like, nobody would have been that mad if that's what ended up happening. He had escaped. And this is the case Crito is trying to make to Socrates. And Socrates, you know, gives all these reasons why he shouldn't. And yeah, before I get into my thoughts about the dialogue, I'm kind of curious what you thought fresh. And you said you had questions. Yeah, yeah.

[00:53:01] Like, I don't think I'd ever read it before. Two things. One, Crito is not, he's like a placeholder. Like, it doesn't even, He's not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Yeah. I know that he's there to break him out, but he's not, like, offering interesting counter arguments. Yeah. But two, like, I guess, like, I was a little surprised at how pro-state he was. Honestly, like, that was also my impression reading it this time. You know,

[00:53:31] I taught it an intro, like, a long time ago. I don't do it anymore, but it has a bit of the consequentialist consequentialist versus the deontologist element of it. Certainly, the main argument Socrates gives is he was convicted via fair trial and he had a contract with the laws of Athens and he's obligated to follow it. That's the right thing. So it has that thread. But then there's also this, like, weirdly Freudian, like, the laws and the state are my father,

[00:54:01] my angry father, and I must obey my father. Like, which is weird because it's in such tension with his obvious disdain for the majority and majority opinion, which constitute the judgments of the state in this case. It's very weird. Yeah. Like, I couldn't help but read into it some, like, giving up at this point where he's just, like, just lost the sort of fight about this. What do you mean? Like, I found it hard to, that he,

[00:54:31] like, throughout the whole thing wouldn't have argued more strongly about the injustice of what's being done to him. Yeah. And it felt like he was just sort of going to accept it because, like, why live in a place that thinks this about me anyway? Yeah, but then that doesn't square with, you know, some of the, and we'll get to some of those passages where it's like the laws are supreme and we must obey them otherwise we're like slaves running away. Yeah, the whole, like,

[00:55:00] I'm like a slave and, like, Athena is like my master. Like, Athena, Athens is my master. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's funny that you say Freud because he multiple times refers to arguments to the contrary as childish. Yeah, right. Yeah, and multiple times refers to the laws as, like, parents and especially a father. And, you know, of course, in the Republic, depending on how you interpret that, that is very open to, like, radically opposed interpretations. But, you know, there is an authoritarian

[00:55:28] regime that seems to be the one that Socrates is saying is the only city that could be just. You know, that's not how I read the Republic, but it's an obvious surface reading of it. And, you know, like, if you want to give evidence for that interpretation, I think the Crito could maybe do that except that Socrates clearly has respect for the laws of a democracy in this case. I mean, this was about as democratic as you can get

[00:55:57] taking 500 citizens or whatever and having them vote on the fate of it. Yes, of course, he doesn't like their verdict and it was probably an unjust but even what you mean by unjust is strange because the justice is the way they see it, the process here and the process was followed. If anything, like, one of the most compelling arguments that Socrates makes is for that the process was fair, you know?

[00:56:27] Trust the process? Yeah, trust the process. And I would think you would love that because you love, like, you know, process-oriented justice. I mean, it just never seemed to me that he was defending himself in the best way and so the verdict being unjust, like, it's not hard to see, like, the tyranny of the majority at work and that, like, he doesn't talk about the tyranny of the majority when, as you say, he's talking about how the majority is, like, so wrong, like, it seems exactly

[00:56:57] odd. Yeah, I guess I'm not sure I agree that this is a tyranny of the majority. You know, that's what you get in a democracy. If you are respecting the laws of the democracy, like, by definition, you are going to go with the will of the majority and it might be that in the republic, well, I think certainly Plato had mixed feelings at best about a democracy, whether he actually endorsed the totalitarian regime of the republic as a separate matter,

[00:57:27] but I don't know, like, that's what's, the laws are intertwined with the sort of majority gets to decide in cases like this and that's what constitutes justice. It just made me think of Anton Chigur saying, if your rules got you here, like, of what use are your rules, you know? Yeah, and, you know, one of the things that's funny, you know, because he does do a bit of social contract thing, like, you make a deal with the state, the state carries out its bargain, you may not have, like, loved every decision they make,

[00:57:56] but they held their side of the bargain if they followed the laws or the process, you could have left if you didn't like the laws, but you didn't, and so. Yeah. No, I, like, I was just, like, with the information that I guess I didn't know that his counteroffer was, like, let me have dinner with the athletes. Like, it just, to me, it's just suicidal. But I guess, like, the fair reading is that I think maybe he saw himself as so pulled

[00:58:26] by the belief that his actions and words were true that he couldn't, in good conscience, give himself a sentence that was a punishment because it would be akin to agreeing and he can't, he has to register that he doesn't agree. And it, you know, it made me think about, like, our legal system and how your hand is forced to admit to some crime even if you don't think that you're guilty because of the chance that you're gonna get, like,

[00:58:54] a far greater crime. Like, I've been listening to podcast episodes with this guy, Greek-American guy whose name I'm blanking on, but who was the whistleblower for the torture, the CIA torture program. Yeah. He was, like, a CIA operative and he served time for it and he was, like, insistent that he did nothing wrong, like, that the torture program was illegal and there was nothing wrong in him saying it, but he ended up doing, like, whatever, like, three years or, you know, some stupid shit. He agreed to a plea.

[00:59:25] He agreed to the plea and, like, the way that he describes it is, like, it's going against every fiber of his being to agree to it, but his lawyers are, like, do you really, do you want to be in prison for 20 years? Like, and this is, you know, Socrates not willing, like, he's like, look, I'm 70, like, this is my town, I'm not leaving. Weird, like, weirdly, like, I see this almost as the devil's temptation, you know, in Christ later on where the devil comes to him and says, like, just bow to me and you can have everything. That's, like,

[00:59:54] what it feels like for Socrates to give in even an inch and admit that he did nothing wrong and then, of course, here, like, flee, like, escape. No, he's going to be on the cross. There's so many parallels, I think. Yeah, it's a lot, I know. It's like, Jesus bit Socrates hard. Yeah, it's eerie. you know, the Neoplatonists, I think, were quite conscious of that and probably thought, like, like, they were avatars of the same kind of being. But I think you're right to say

[01:00:23] that while I don't think he minded the fuck you of the IE with the Olympians punishment, I think he offered it genuinely because that is what he thought he deserved and you're 100% right that our system depends on exactly people making those compromises. Like, like, 97% of cases are plead out and often by people who don't believe they're guilty, certainly of the charge that they were initially accused of,

[01:00:53] but you get scared. I mean, a little microcosm version of this just happened to me and, like, it sucks and you feel like absolute shit, but, you know, this is how the whole system runs if even 10% of people didn't accept pleas, the court system would collapse. Right. And, like, so they have, like, the prosecutor, that's their job to just jack up the charges God, man, it's extortion. It's 100% extortion, often of the poorest people, the people who can least afford

[01:01:22] to be extorted, but. Back to sorry, yeah, so, you know, the other thing is that I get why he's sticking to his guns because it's true, like, if his thought is, like, I've tried to never lie, I've always tried to, like, be as honest as possible, even when I'm saying shit that nobody wants to hear, even when I'm saying controversial shit, like, look what got him there or whatever. Um, if I give in in this moment, will people believe and respect all of the things I've said before? Yeah. Like,

[01:01:51] if I crumbled here, would they have, like, reason, whether it's, you know, rational or not, to just discard my views because look what he did in the end. Like, he was a coward. Yeah. Although, you know, like you said earlier, if you believe it's an unjust verdict by a population that you think is not worthy of trusting on any issues related to ethics or justice, you know, you could sort of imagine

[01:02:21] taking a position that it was okay. And, one of the things I think this dialogue is pretty effective in doing is showing why, while that might appear initially, like, he's not betraying the central kind of tenant of who he is, it actually might be. So, let's go into the details of this argument. Crito comes in. By the way, creepy. Yes. Like, very creepy. He's just sitting there staring. Imagine waking up

[01:02:51] in your home and he's just sitting there staring at you. Yeah. Like, you're in prison so, like, nobody can come into your, like, what the fuck? I was having a prophetic dream. I woke up to your ass. And it seems as though he just, like, has enough money to bribe. Yeah. He bribed the guard to look the other way. Yeah, it's like in Goodfellas, you know, brings him, like, a baguette and some wine. He's cutting garlic with razor blades. Yeah. So, then the first thing Crito says is, like, you look pretty good, you look pretty cheerful

[01:03:20] given your situation and Socrates says, you know, it's not fitting, like, for me to resent the fact that I'm gonna die when I'm 70. You know, like, I'm 70 years old, you gotta go at a certain point, like, to be all pissed off about that would be unseemly, kind of, which, you know, I kind of agree with, you know. I'm gonna be unseemly as fuck. I know, I'm kidding. then Crito says, look, I think that we can break you out of here.

[01:03:50] Like, we gotta do it, like, soon because, you know, it's gonna be tomorrow, the next day, either way, we gotta get you out of here. I want you to come because, and he gives a bunch of reasons. Number one, he says, I'll be deprived of a friend, and, like, this is a one-of-one kind of friend here, you know, this isn't, and I think that's true. Socrates was a famous weirdo, very devoted students, but, uh, there's not a lot of people like him. So that's number one. The, another thing that Crito

[01:04:19] is very concerned about because he repeats it a few times is, like, what will people think about me? You know? I know. I was, I read it, I'm like, that's not the way to go. Exactly. Like, like, but what will people think? Like, that I was your friend and I didn't help you. I was too cheap to help you, even though I have the money and it wouldn't cost that much. He also says it wouldn't cost that much, but he's like, I don't want people to think that I wouldn't save my friend, you know, just because I valued money more. And Socrates says, look,

[01:04:49] you shouldn't care what the majority thinks, and Crito says, well, actually, you know, maybe you should pay more attention to the majority given your situation. Their will clearly has a lot of force. And Socrates says, I wish you were true that the majority could inflict all the greatest evils like consistently because that would also mean they were capable of doing that for good. But actually, they just do things kind of arbitrarily

[01:05:18] and haphazardly. Yeah, this was a weird part for me. Like, what's the argument there? Like, you know, mine says, whatever they do is the result of chance. Yeah. Like, as someone who believed in the system, to believe that seems weird. Well, you know, this will be an interesting thing to talk about because I think you could argue that he doesn't necessarily believe in the system or in democracy as much as he believes that he signed up for a democracy. And if he didn't like the democracy, he could have left it,

[01:05:48] but he didn't. And so it's more about an individual obligation rather than an all-out endorsement of this type of government. And, you know, the haphazard thing matches up with some of the stuff in the republic about the majority changes. You know, all of a sudden everybody loves podcasts. No, now they have to be videos. No, now it's like TikToks and streamers that talk for eight

[01:06:18] and Crito is saying like the majority can be a tyrant and he's like, yeah, but if they could be a tyrant, they could also be like a benevolent monarch and do a lot of good and they can't. It's just, it's always inherently going to be haphazard and arbitrary. Yeah. So the second, like I guess the second or third big point is Crito's reputation. A lot of people will think he let his friend down and then he says also like what about your kids?

[01:06:48] You have two kids, they need to get educated and if you die, they're just going to become the equivalent of orphans and they won't get a good education. And meanwhile, for not very much money because everyone's kind of fine with you escaping, we can get you away and I think we can handle whatever flack comes of it on our end. I mean, this was the strongest one for me, you know? The kids. Yeah. Me too. You're being

[01:07:18] almost selfish. No, not almost. You're being selfish. And you can see like the charge. You know, Socrates is in danger of being too self-important here and therefore abandoning his responsibilities. Now, I don't know how old his kids are if he's 70 and how much they need his help, but presumably they're young. He was Paul blooming it. Yeah, he was Paul blooming it. He says, either one should not have children or one should share with them to the end the toil

[01:07:47] of upbringing and education. You seem to me to choose the easiest path, whereas one should choose the path that a good and courageous man would choose. And then he says, I'm ashamed on your behalf and on behalf of us. And he kind of emphasizes that it's not just wrong, it's shameful what he's doing. I know, and my translation feels like it's driving that part home even harder when he says, you're choosing the easier part, not the better and manlier. He's just like calling into question

[01:08:18] his manhood. You're being a bitch about this, Socrates. Yeah, exactly. And people will attribute to us all a lack of courage. It keeps coming back to that a little too much for Crito. Yeah, I know. It's just like, is this about you? Yeah. Then Socrates says, all right, look, you know, we've been doing this a long time and do we agree that you should always do the right thing or just that we should do the right thing when it's convenient? And Crito's like, oh God, he probably knows where this is going already. He's like,

[01:08:48] I think we should, you know, do the right thing no matter what. He's like, are you sure it's not just like some days we do the right thing, some days we don't, or when it's really bad for us, we don't do the right thing. And he's like, well, what if somebody does wrong to you? Do we think the majority that you should do wrong in return to them? And Crito, who probably thinks yes, says no, like, I guess we shouldn't. He's like, but this is what we've always said, right? Like,

[01:09:18] are we going to abandon that now? No. And he says, so if we agree on all this so far, we must examine next whether it is right for me to try to get out of here when the Athenians have not acquitted me. If it will be seen to be right, we will try to do so to escape. If it is not, we will abandon the idea. As for those questions you raise about money, reputation, the upbringing of children, Crito, those considerations in truth belong to those people who easily put men

[01:09:48] to death and who would easily bring them to life again if they could without thinking, I mean the majority of men. For us, however, since our argument leads to this, the only valid consideration, as we were saying just now, is whether we should be acting rightly and giving money and gratitude to those who will lead me out of here and ourselves helping with the escape or whether in truth we shall do wrong to this. So it's like, in that passage, he seems to think like, upbringing of children, you know,

[01:10:18] like, your reputation, that's just bullshit. Like, the only thing that matters is whether we should do right in escaping or not right in escaping. But what's weird is, like, the upbringing of children is part of that question, right? I know. Yeah, yeah. it's, well, okay, you're just rejecting that this should be included in the definition of the right. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, so even though he does kind of address the upbringing question when he is making the argument

[01:10:47] at the end of the dialogue, I do think here he makes it sound like that just doesn't matter. Like, my obligations to my children as, like, to educate them, like, that's not something that even belongs in the moral calculus here. Right. And maybe because what I'm looking for is a universal, liable principle to follow, and that universal principle couldn't be sensitive to everybody's individual circumstances. Yeah. So, like, I don't want to follow something

[01:11:17] specific to me. Yeah, which is so, there's a Kantian element to this, which I thought would give you a Kantian boner, but. It did kind of, yeah. I mean, I guess, just to blow my load early, my question at the end of all of this is, like, what the fuck are we supposed to do with an unjust society then? But, we could save that to the end, yeah. Well, yeah, and it's, like, I think there's two levels of justice that are being considered here. There's the injustice of a particular

[01:11:46] verdict, but, you know, like, being in a kind of democracy like this, you're guaranteed to have unjust verdicts all the time, and that's, that's, like, part of the deal. So, at that second level of justice, I think, is the one Socrates is operating with, and barely even considering the first question. I mean, obviously, he thinks it was a wrong verdict, but the argument is that that can't matter in this case. What isn't as compelling as argument is the idea that your

[01:12:15] child's upbringing also can't matter in that calculus. One thing that, again, with this dismissal of the majority, the opinions of the majority, that is a thread throughout this, and a thread throughout so many of Plato's dialogues, right, is the trainer analogy. It's like, who should we listen to about, like, bodily health? Should we listen to just what everybody says? Oh, have valerian root and, you know, do the

[01:12:45] keto diet or something like that? Don't take Kratom. Yeah, don't take Kratom. Don't drink a ton. You know, don't drink every night. Yeah, or should we listen to the experts? And Kratom is saying, well, we should listen to the experts about physical training and health. And he's like, well, do you think, like, the health of the soul is less important than the health of the body? And Kratom's like, no, of course not. And so he says, then I think we should

[01:13:15] only listen to the people who know what they're talking about when it comes to ethical decisions and not what the majority of people are thinking. Yeah. You know, it's poetic to talk about the health of the soul, but it is weirdly dualistic. But it's also a little question-beggy because what's being questioned is the rightness of this action. And presumably, if it is right, it would be good for the soul. Yeah, but I think that's his point. The fact that the majority would say do this

[01:13:45] doesn't matter. So let's start for what we think. You and I, we're going to be the experts here. We're going to examine this with clear heads and we will decide whether it's right for me to leave or whether it's not. And yeah, so then Socrates gives this argument. You know, he always likes to have a debate and so he takes on the role of a personification of the Athenian laws. And, you know, like I actually think

[01:14:15] lays out, you know, he makes a compelling case that if you are going to live in a system of laws, you have to abide by the laws, even if in some cases the laws can kind of misfire and lead to an unjust verdict. Like, that's a necessary evil of these kinds of laws and you can't just have private citizens deciding to disregard the verdicts that come through this just process that everybody agrees

[01:14:45] to. You know, in this case, the Athenian trial system. That's the way this is set up. We gave you an education. We gave your father an education. We have marriage laws that allowed your father to marry your mother and have you. And if at any point you were not happy with the laws and the processes that we have, you could have left. But you never left. Like, nobody, blind people and handicapped people left Athens more than you did. The only time you ever left

[01:15:14] was to do military service. You never took trips. Yeah. They're like, you had that one weekend in whatever, Ibiza. But that's about it. So, like, you clearly were happy with living in Athens probably more than anyone else. You just ate it up. You know, you were like Woody Allen in New York. So, clearly you consented to be governed by these laws. To leave that is, yeah, it's a betrayal of the system. Yeah. And then he goes into that, like,

[01:15:45] personification of the father state, which, like you were saying, is weirdly Freudian. It's also, like, as I was reading it, almost like Job, you know, like, when God finally comes, he's like, hey, hey, hey, buddy, I made all of this. You know, I brought you into this world. I can take you out. Yeah. I mean, it does have a little of the Job element. Job also unjustly kind of formented and... And refused to, like, curse God. But,

[01:16:13] at least in this case, like, they're making an argument that's related to Job's complaints, whereas, like, that's not what happens at the end of Job, if I remember right. Like, it's a complete non sequitur, what he said. Yeah. But, like, in a great way. So, yeah, the weird father things are like, is your wisdom such as to not realize that your country is to be honored more than your mother, your father, and all your ancestors, that it is more

[01:16:43] to be revered and more sacred, that it counts for more among gods and sensible men, that you must worship it, yield to it, and placate the angry more than your father's. You must either persuade it or obey its orders and endure in silence what it instructs you to endure, whether blows or bonds, and it leads you into war to be wounded or killed, you must obey. Like, you certainly don't need that for the argument

[01:17:12] that he's making, the kind of universalizability, you know, you signed up for these laws, if you signed up for it, you should follow through with that. A deal's a deal. Like, that I get, but this thing, it's like, wait, what? Where? Like, this took a turn, you know? It's like, took a boomer turn, weirdly. Yeah, exactly. So this is a thing, like, I get that Socrates, like, had plenty of opportunity to leave and to not be part of Athens, but, you know, we even get, like, a little taste here

[01:17:42] of, like, whatever Thessaly is, like, probably where Cytos thinks that he can whisk him away to. It's probably, a shittier place to live. So, like, Athens might be the best of all of all of the places to live, and I guess you could say he made his choice, but does that work for everybody? Like, that can't, right? Like, there are plenty of people who don't have the choice to leave. Yeah. Like, that seems like that would be obvious even in his time. I mean, I think that it's a very common thing that people say,

[01:18:12] you know, to justify, like, you know, retributive systems. It's like, you signed up for this, you're a deal. And it's like, oh yeah, like, most people can just pack up and move to England or to, you know, and like, no, that's not how it works. Like, you're economically barred from doing that. However, I don't think Socrates was, is the point. So I don't think this has to be true of everyone for that argument to work. It has to be true of Socrates, which I think it is. He's a property man, I guess, even though he was, like,

[01:18:41] walked around barefoot in shitty clothes. I don't think that was for lack of funds. So, like, for some segment of the Athenian population, that would be true. But also, the laws are saying there are countries that wouldn't let you leave or at least wouldn't let you leave with your property, with all your shit, and we do. That's always part of the deal, and you knew that, and yet you chose to stay. And I think as long as he had the opportunity to leave and didn't, that this works.

[01:19:11] Okay, yeah, that makes sense on the reading because he is talking specifically about himself and he's like, you know, what would they say to me? You, Socrates, like, you had all this chance. And so it's possible that he would think it's justified to escape in somebody else's circumstance. Possible, yeah. You know, given the stuff about obey the laws like, more and revere them and like, if they say you must be beaten, then take the beating. Like, that stuff, I don't know, makes me... What are you gonna be a miserable slave and run away? Yeah,

[01:19:41] like, the worst kind of slave that actually doesn't want to be a slave and tries to escape. I mean, like, so there is this authoritarian streak, but the funny thing is it comes from this fundamentally democratic, probably the purest democracy that, well, it's not pure because like women and slaves and like, but I mean, pure in the sense that anyone who counted as a citizen really did get equal vote. There was no like lobbies. There was no real

[01:20:10] professional politicians. It really was a kind of will of the people thing. I'm sure, you know, people had outsized influence with money, but it's nothing like now. There was campaign finance reform. Well, there weren't even campaigns because they weren't professional politicians. So, like, so that's a, that's a really interesting tension that I was kind of highlighted for me and also just the weirdness of the way he really hammers home that parent analogy. It's like, oh, the God analogy.

[01:20:39] The laws are a kind of God in this and you could think if you wanted to, you could say this is another case of Socrates kind of being disrespectful about the gods because he really does treat the laws of the state as the gods. Yeah. That's the part that surprised me and I was trying to read it for any hint of sarcasm about this like, because you could see maybe he's like, we've created this, like a Leviathan, we've created a monster

[01:21:09] and we are bound to this no matter what and I'm not gonna, but I don't think so, right? Like, he's really saying this sort of like, what if everybody took into their own hands their, like, desires that favored them? Like, how could we stand as a society? Yeah. And that's the part that's not compelling to me. So, I think that the part of it that's compelling to me is a kind of, you know, you shook hands on this deal and we have followed our part of the deal

[01:21:38] and that part is compatible with an unjust verdict coming your way even when that leads to your death. Like, that was always a possibility. You knew that. You knew that somebody could get sick of you and prosecute you and maybe the majority of people could convict you. That was always a possibility. You chose to stay so you need to abide by that. That I find more compelling than this society would fall apart if you escaped. It's true that

[01:22:08] what if everyone escaped? But this is a very special case. This is a case where there are funds and really it's kind of what everybody wants. Like, there'd probably be a few people throwing their hats down and stomping on the ground, you know, like, in a 40s movie. But, like, most of the people I think would be like, breathe a sigh of relief. I didn't want that on my conscience. And so, this idea that the society would collapse or that this is some sort of full frontal

[01:22:37] assault on the laws is not that convincing to me. Right. Especially when it would have been perfectly within the law to say, fine, kick me out. But that's actually what the law says that I think is a great point. It's like, not only that, like, if you were going to escape, you could have offered exile and we would have taken it. Yeah, I know. But that's, like, I can't help but think that Socrates wanted to make them feel bad. Like, because exactly as you say, like, nobody wants this on their conscience. Like, nobody wanted him

[01:23:07] to do that. Like, he pissed them off. Like, they're like, fine, if I can kill this guy, but come on. Get him the fuck out of here. Get him out of here. But again, like, he could have offered exile. But you could also make it, I guess maybe this is the point you were making just before, is the laws could have clearly survived. The city would survive with him being exiled because they would have accepted that verdict. So, that's why that part, right, feels a little like, come on, Socrates, like, you're combining two things that don't need to be combined. One is that, like,

[01:23:36] you just were unwilling to, like, bargain within the bounds of the law. And so, you chose whatever you thought the honorable thing was to do, which was to say you were so not guilty that what you deserved was, like, a fancy dinner. But then, you can't use, like, the reason that, like, you would be violating the law because, like, you had the option to be within the law. So, it was like, you know, the uncharitable reading would be it was your pride. Pride was fucking with you, Socrates. Whether it was pride or whether it was, like,

[01:24:06] I sincerely think that this is what I deserve. He made that legally his counteroffer. Yeah. And so, now he's like, now I can't. Now, and so, you know, I'm starting to realize that fundamentally I think this is an argument less about, like, the unraveling of a society of, I'm sure people have gone against verdicts in the past. People have probably escaped before and Athens somehow survived someone doing that.

[01:24:35] it's dishonorable for him to leave. And I think, you know, you've been saying that Socrates reads like he might have had a bit of a death wish. Like, you know, if Athens rejects me and I love Athens, then maybe I don't, like, want to live anymore in this kind of society. Yeah, let Athens take me out. Yeah, let Athens take me out. And it is a kind of, you know, it's a famously honorable death what he does. He does it with dignity. You know, Seneca, who was forced

[01:25:04] to try to kill himself, we've talked about this, tried to model his own death on Socrates' death. Oh yeah, that's right. And he just bungled it a couple times. He, like, couldn't actually do it. He got that bum hemlock. Yeah. So, you know, like, I think it is fundamentally, like, less about a social contract and more about there's a code almost and you gotta follow the code. Like, you can't just leave when it becomes inconvenient for you. Yeah, I think, like, I've arrived at that

[01:25:33] reading too. It's hard to, like, make it past the, like, you know, let the state do what it will. Yeah, that's not as dishonorable. That's less honorable. He's like, the state, you must love it and lick its boots. Yeah, if the state wants to bend me over and ram me, then the state should bend me over and ram me and I should love it. Not whine like a little bitch. Yeah. And then they do address the children thing at the end in a way that I think

[01:26:03] is actually, like, you know, somewhat plausible. They say, look, are you gonna take your children to a good city? Well, they're not gonna like you because, you know, you're a fugitive. You've escaped from prison when you were convicted by a fair trial. And then if you live in this, like, Sodom-like Thessaly place, well, they're not gonna get a good education there. So are you gonna leave your kids here? Well, thinking your friends can raise them? Well, your friends can raise them even after you're dead. So, you know, kind of plausible there at the end.

[01:26:33] The other thing that makes me think it's an honor thing is where he says, you know, when he talks about Thessaly, there you will find greatest license and disorder and they may enjoy hearing from you how absurdly you escaped from prison in some disguise in a leather jerkin or some other thing in which escapees wrap themselves, thus altering your appearance. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. It's very much I made my bed now I must lie in it and those are two different things. Like, this was the bed

[01:27:03] I chose to make and now I'm not gonna weasel out of it. It's like the end of Donnie Brasco. I don't know if anyone has made this connection before but, you know, Al Pacino's, you know, he knows that he's gonna get whacked and he kind of buttons his coat and, you know, takes off his watch to leave for his wife and he takes it, you know, he goes into it like a man. He's not happy about it but he's not gonna try to duck it either. Donnie broke his heart. Yeah. He did.

[01:27:32] I actually love that movie. It's a good movie. I haven't seen it in a long time but Athens broke Socrates' heart. Yeah. I think Athens did break Socrates' heart and as annoying as he could be, I think Athens made a mistake but it is such a legendary, it's almost mythic the story and I know there's a lot of people who will try to debunk it and say that Socrates was just like a spy for the Spartans or whatever but in terms of how it's been passed down. Spartan propaganda. Don't listen to that.

[01:28:01] Or to that Athenian propaganda. Like I think it is kind of like the way we have it passed down to us in, you know, these masterpieces that are Plato's dialogues you know, it really couldn't have had a more kind of legendary ending. Totally. Like it is such a compelling tale of like the being tempted to weasel out of everything you stand for for like good reason, you know, like the temptation is really there and standing up

[01:28:31] to principle. Like it does have this feel of the devil whispering in his ear. Like just come on, you could just get away with it. Yeah. And he's like, no. And that he ends there, he says, this dear Crito is the voice which I seem to hear murmuring in my ears like the sound of the flute in the ears of the mystic. That voice I say is humming in my ears and prevents me from hearing any other. And I know that anything more which you may say will be in vain yet speak if you have anything to say, which of course he does not. And he says, leave me then Crito to fulfill the will of God and to follow

[01:29:01] whither he leads. Which is such a great little ironic ending for somebody who's been accused of like... Well, I mean, in the apology too he talks about that and he talks about a lot his daemon. There's a big mystical side to another kind of Christ analogy. There is a real mysticism to Socrates in Plato's dialogues, some of them. You know, in the beginning, this is like just a matter of curiosity when he says

[01:29:29] he refers to I think dying as going down there and it just made me think of like our discussions of Odyssey and Hell and like their notions of Hades. Yeah. Yeah, that also comes up in Phaedo. He argues for the immortality of the soul although there it's more abstract and in the apology though he has this interesting thing where he's like if I'm dead either it's just nothing in which case like nothing is nothing like why

[01:29:58] should I fear nothing or I'll be in Hades and I can talk to Achilles and I can talk to, you know, Odysseus I can talk to all these people that I and it'll be fun you know so either way and that guy who got drunk and fell off the Yeah, Elpinor. I would I would have a beer with Elpinor in Hades he seems like a fun hang like a good drunk I think that's how I'm gonna die I think A beer with Elpinor should be in your fucking

[01:30:27] the title of your memoir I like that Drinking with Elpinor Alright any last words on the Crito? No I'm now I'm just gonna follow every law in my challenge Justin because I've been convinced I shook hands with my government you know when I was born Yeah Alright well thank you for joining us for another installment

[01:30:55] of Back to Basics and join us next time on Very Bad Wizards I'm waiting

[01:31:42] Justin Very Bad