Episode 252: Yes We Sene-can

[00:00:00] Very Bad Wizards is a podcast with a philosopher, my dad, and psychologist Dave Pizarro having an informal discussion about issues in science and ethics. Please note that the discussion contains bad words that I'm not allowed to say, and knowing my dad some very inappropriate jokes.

[00:00:17] Game, recognize game, and you look kinda unfamiliar right now. Look, wait in! Hi! Welcome to Very Bad Wizards. I'm Tamler Sommers from the University of Houston. Dave, it's 2023. I believe I ask you this question every New Year. What are your New Year's resolutions?

[00:01:24] And I think I'm usually pretty down on resolutions. But this year, you know, the reason I'm down is because by January 31st, like I never fall through anything. So I know myself, like so I'm pretty down.

[00:01:35] But this year, I'm gonna give it the old college try, as what people say. And I'm going to really try to read more books. Like I feel like I just have let my book reading fall off so badly.

[00:01:51] I used to love reading a lot more and I don't know why. I think it's the digital age. But I signed up for a Goodreads account and I'm genuinely gonna try. I'm gonna aim for 50 books, which- Wow. Like Lex Friedman. Like Lex Friedman, although I will say.

[00:02:07] I counted the Seneca book that we read for today as a book. Yeah, what are you gonna read? Like what are- do you have a 50? No, fuck no way, not at all. I'm gonna read The Deadwood Bible. That's one of them. Yes. Nice. Thank you.

[00:02:22] Tamler got me The Deadwood Bible as a gift. Yes. And I have a few. I have a few. But I'm open for recommendations, especially good nonfiction books. I think I'm gonna start with the- finally read The Douglas Hofstadter I'm a Strange Loop book. Oh, good. Yeah.

[00:02:41] And then we can do an episode on it if you like it. Exactly. Yeah. What about you? You know, I'm usually more upbeat on resolutions and- but I do them by month. That was like a tradition we started in my family like about seven or eight years

[00:02:57] back so you need to make it more manageable so that like- You know, they're boring. It's like improve my core and they're also more unspecific. You know, like they're too unspecific right now to really have crystallized into something.

[00:03:15] You know, I think I'm in good shape and I get a good amount of exercise but I could use a stronger core. I don't know. People talk about that, right? Oh yeah, for sure. That's everything, right?

[00:03:24] And it always sounded like the kind of people who buy their pants at Lululemon, speed that way. Exactly. Or like people who love the Stoics. Right now my back is completely shot from like traveling with luggage and stuff. Yeah. So I also need to strengthen my core.

[00:03:40] Yeah, like it just like the older you get you just start like to do the things you want to do like play tennis or swim. You just need it or else you're just going to get constantly injured.

[00:03:50] I like just taking my fucking- I took my dog for a walk. Charlie, this was about three weeks ago and he does this annoying thing where he- I have him off leash in the neighborhood but there's this two blocks away from where he does this.

[00:04:06] There are people put out bowls for cats so that cats can come and eat them. And so he strategically- this is the kind of dog he is. He strategically takes a shit like at the end of this block and then while I'm picking it up he takes off.

[00:04:22] He's like almost 14 years old. He's a month away from being 14 but he has figured this out that if he takes off like it's dark, like it's hard to see him. He will be able to get to the cat food thing before I find him.

[00:04:35] So I put him on a leash because I had figured it out by then and I just wrenched my back trying to put on his leash that when I- like I had to call my daughter to pick

[00:04:43] me up and then like I spent like an hour and a half on the floor because I couldn't get up. Like there was just no way that I could get up and I was like alright New Year's Resolution core. Strengthened my core. And gets some Lululemon pants.

[00:04:57] Yeah I have a Lululemon gift card which- Oh, I mean it's comfortable clothes. Yeah no my plan is to go to Lululemon buy like 130 dollar sweatpants and then kill myself. That's the- I want to kill myself because I'm starting to see Instagram ads for like

[00:05:18] Men over 40, improve your flexibility. Like that kind of shit. Alright so today we are going to talk about the Stoics. This was something that a wild back our Patreon listeners voted in as the topic Stoicism One.

[00:05:35] I don't know why we haven't done a full episode on Stoicism before but- I think it was just a problem of trying to find what text to read. Yeah. So we just settled on one. You picked one I guess. Oh wow you're just throwing me under the-

[00:05:51] Well we couldn't do all of the meditations or all of the Pectatis or so anyway we picked this was a suggestion from a listener Seneca's On The Happy Life. And it's an interesting one. It's a little different than a lot of the other Stoic work that I've read.

[00:06:08] So I'm excited to talk about that. But first we are going to do you have like your like do you have a new beat to this or just some kind of like intro sound effect? Alright should I start with mine? My guilty guess.

[00:06:33] This requires two little pieces of background that might be obvious but bear repeating. So listeners might know that the origins in fact of your joking about me being Conti and I think just come from the fact that I'm such a champion of reason. I like rationality.

[00:06:51] I want to live my life according to principles, essentially first principles of logic. And the second thing that people may or may not know is that I was born in Argentina half of my family's from Argentina.

[00:07:07] So I've already told you this one but I think you're one of the only people I told. Much to my disappointment and shame while the World Cup was happening you know happens once every four years. Argentina had been trying to win and getting so close for like 36 years.

[00:07:26] We lost the first game to Saudi Arabia but then won every other game after that. I found myself engaging in shameful superstitious behavior. Rational normals like sports watching behavior. Yeah I can't even know it's terrible. I can't even explain it.

[00:07:45] I still don't have any reasons that I can give for why I did it. I don't believe that I believe in it. It's just and this is all it was like I didn't have I think my jerseys whatever the normal sports people would do

[00:07:59] like where the teams jersey like they were in storage. So I did this stupid thing where I got my Apple watch and I put two different bands one light blue and one white to match the colors of the Argentinian flag and I wore on my right wrist.

[00:08:13] And since they won I couldn't fucking every morning I woke up I was like I got it and put it back on and they kept winning Tamler they kept winning and it was like I was under just like it was as if like a

[00:08:28] witch had put a spell on me like I don't I don't know. There's an easy explanation for this and I know this because like we've been doing this for over 10 years

[00:08:37] and I've never seen you this passionately connected to an outcome of an event as it should have been because it was incredible. And by the way congratulations for winning one of the freaking greatest sporting events that I've ever seen in my whole life.

[00:08:53] Incredible made me happy to hear you say that. Yeah, we'd been texting throughout a lot of the tournament and like you actually cared about it and once you care that much then of course you're going to start doing what normal sports people do

[00:09:07] which is correctly identifying the causal effect that you can have on a game or a match because of what you do like it's just it's just logic. I wonder if the way that it works you know like speaking just down to the causality

[00:09:24] is that all of the Argentina fans in the world need to do all of their weird superstitions at the same time and if one of us fails like then it ruins it for everyone. Is that how?

[00:09:36] I mean I think so yeah and like I don't know maybe it's just a percentage and you don't want to be like you know among like I don't know exactly what the physical laws are at play

[00:09:50] but like phenomenologically it doesn't feel like collective action it feels like you have to put it on it feels like it's all on you. Totally yeah it's a weird thing I mean we've talked about this I really do at some level believe it to the point

[00:10:07] at least where I will get mad at somebody else if they're not doing the thing that we agreed we had to do Oh! Fucking YOL! YOL! What did he do? Oh man during the final during the final Argentina was up 2-0

[00:10:23] and we were all you told me about this Oh my god And you know there's a saying in soccer that 2-0 is like the most tenuous lead that you could have Cause all they need to do is score one and then it's like

[00:10:37] And then you're fighting for your life Yeah and so YOL texts me congratulations by the way Oh my god I remember you told me this Oh man I was so mad Did you like not soon afterwards? Not soon afterwards!

[00:10:53] Fucking they scored two goals within 90 seconds so I know causally I know that that's why Yeah yeah so yeah you did your part that's how delicate and fragile the whole situation is is you're coming up with some work around with your Apple watch

[00:11:08] and then like YOL can just fuck it up because and you know that he's a pure rationalist about it too He must be either that or because he was in the Netherlands for so long

[00:11:19] like he was just trying to like actually fuck me over cause of how we defeated the Dutch Anyway that's a good one yeah and welcome to the world of normal sports It's a terrible life The amount of suffering People think that oh you must be happy

[00:11:36] No I'm just really like I'm happy like I was happy when it happened but it's more relieved than anything I have a faculty member, a colleague who's a big Arsenal fan and he considers it a burden that he cares so much about the outcome of Arsenal matches

[00:11:55] and he says I would get rid of it if I could but I can't so I just put up with it but he really doesn't find it fun in any like he just finds it to be something like a crossed bear

[00:12:07] Yeah I feel what he's saying but like at the same time the sheer joy when you win and like when all of Argentina was celebrating and you get to feel like part of something like that like that just overwhelms any of the stuff like you know

[00:12:25] I agree yeah it's like and in fact in way like something we might talk about in the second segment is letting yourself be vulnerable to contingency and fortune has its good side you know and possibly an overridingly good side well we'll have to see

[00:12:43] alright my guilty confession is more somber yours is like should be like a gilded confection actually you should be proud of your confession so I'll take that as you getting me back for the time that you gave some heartfelt one and then I was like

[00:13:04] I think it's funny when Drunk calls that Elizabeth Warren Pocahontas so this time like this is one I feel bad about I like I think I had it in mind to say one other time but like it involves drunk driving and having done it

[00:13:21] and having done it more than once not a like a lot but more than once that and I don't mean drunk like you know you've had two glasses of wine at dinner or something like that but I mean like seriously like shouldn't be on the road

[00:13:39] knew I shouldn't be on the road and what you're aiming like you're not driving you're aiming yeah and it's just like when you think about what that could what that could lead to it's just kind of unforgivable

[00:13:55] and like I don't like I don't feel like there's anything else in my life where I'm that or I have been that irresponsible at least post like I'd like to say that this was when I was like 18 or 19 but actually I was way better about it

[00:14:11] than like it's more like it was later and so yeah it's a strange thing because it feels in some ways like I'm sure it's not even and like it feels like one of the worst things that I've ever

[00:14:26] like that I've done and yet I did it multiple times and yeah I don't know like what do you think about that how bad is that to have like I could go into a detail like I never heard anybody I never I did

[00:14:40] one time kind of just fuck up my own car by but like it was not even clear that was because I was drunk it was it was like in Colorado driving on these roads but yeah like what do you think about that how bad it is

[00:14:54] it's a I mean I am with you like there are times that I know I shouldn't have been driving and and I did and it's like much shame to me and I don't ever do that but it's one of those weird things where you know

[00:15:10] like the deontological rule or whatever the rule you tear a utilitarian rule like really needs to be like it doesn't matter that we never heard anybody you know like you really have to believe that it doesn't matter if you'd never hurt anybody because that's more

[00:15:23] luck that's pure luck yeah the counterfactual that like we've escaped you know our lives is something so terrible that it's hard to represent that like constantly when you're making those decisions so like knock on wood but I oh my god man yeah

[00:15:42] and this is why it like the the rise of Uber is I think such a good thing I don't know if there are any stats on whether these things have gone down but like it's so much easier now I got scared straight not that long before

[00:15:57] Uber became a thing like like there was one time where it was just so bad that and that was it like but I think you're right like it needs to be a Kantian deontological like just no hard line

[00:16:10] no you just never do it and however much of a painted at the acid is that night or the next day or whatever you just don't do it what and the lesson also is if you I think like I don't know what the ratio is but if you

[00:16:23] take like a certain amount of edibles it can counteract how drunk you are and just find that perfect balance caffeinated do they sell caffeinated edibles so that you could I think it's cocaine you're thinking of but oh yeah yeah should we talk about some favorite things

[00:16:44] from this past year yeah so we talked about top five but we didn't think we would have time for that so I'm gonna say these are my top three but these are three things that I consumed for the first time that I watched for the

[00:16:58] first time in 2022 and what's your what's your first one I'm gonna put it might be obvious to some people but the last season of Better Call Saul is definitely up there for me like I think it wrapped up so nicely and I think that it

[00:17:18] showed itself to be a I think a superior show to Breaking Bad just everything they up their game and I had a blast watching it I was very invested in it so yeah I didn't well I watched like the first season

[00:17:31] and a half liked it but just never fully could get over the brother you know yeah you should binge it because I want to know if you feel the same way that I do I think that their storytelling their character development their cinematography

[00:17:44] everything is just not stopped I feel like there were some kluji parts of Breaking Bad that I didn't care for the other thing that it has that Breaking Bad did have but that I know you and I is the patience and the non-condescension

[00:17:58] to the audience like taking its time to to really tell the story even if that means long periods of what some people might think is boring yeah and it also had something that like even in the time that I watched it it had something

[00:18:11] that Breaking Bad didn't have which is just a great female character like Kim what's her name she's Kim Wexler Kim Wexler yeah and she reminds me of like I don't know if there was like a Boston like the kind of like working class

[00:18:26] yeah well yeah just kind of a tough Boston broad you know but in a very like I don't know also warm and she was great she's great all right my number three is a show this is like the new age of television where I hadn't heard of this

[00:18:46] show a month ago never heard of it and my you know Eliza comes home from college looking for a new show to watch and I literally looked at a list because we watched 1899 which did you hear is not getting I heard it got canceled

[00:19:01] yeah I'm glad I didn't invest in it but yeah yeah so we watch that we needed something new and I looked up I was like oh I've never heard of this but everyone seems to love it Babylon Berlin have you know I've heard of

[00:19:15] it I thought you were going somewhere else with this but yeah where did you think I was going white Lotus oh well I'd heard of white well I mean I don't know a month white Lotus I really enjoyed the second season of but it's

[00:19:27] not my top three um Babylon Berlin I've not watched it I've heard of it but not that much I remember was on my list to watch but I completely forgot about it takes place in like late 20s Berlin it's kind of a spy thriller

[00:19:39] there's one camp of it is the communist element of Germany and Berlin and the Trotskyites versus the Stalinist so that's one element of it obviously there's the rising tide you can see it's simmering fascism but there's no Nazi element yet at least in

[00:19:58] the first season that I've watched but the thing that's just so impressive and amazing about it is like at every level the filmmaking is phenomenal the writing is really good the performances are down the line great it's just like I can't believe that there are

[00:20:14] shows of this quality that are just out there that you might not know about it's mind-blowing like we've talked about this so many times but like imagine when you're a kid like if one of these per year came around you'd be mind-blown yeah and it just

[00:20:30] didn't also like nothing like it it was like you know NYPD blew in the 90s or something and and then the rest of them were good but they weren't they weren't even at the level of just some really high quality thing like Babylon Berlin it's on

[00:20:47] Netflix I think there's already been three seasons of it it's just crazy yeah yeah speaking of great TV like my next one I think is in this category I'm Mara Vistown did you watch it yeah I it came out in 2021 but I watched it for the first

[00:21:08] time this year and Kate Winslet yeah Kate Winslet I didn't think I would care for it that much but I really liked it and I think people should give it a shot if you haven't like it's it might depend on what you

[00:21:22] feel about Kate Winslet but I think she does a great job I like Kate Winslet a lot I think she's great in the show I remember just being a tiny bit underwhelmed by it but thinking that it was really good and was happy I watched it but I'm

[00:21:36] surprised that you had such a positive reaction to it yeah it was one of the best shows like there were there were maybe I went into it without that high expectations at all she was great I remember she was great I remember

[00:21:48] had a decent ending like it had a fairly satisfying resolution to the mystery yeah I don't even remember yeah yeah exactly although that's not that's also part of the times is that you see these shows and seriously like that bell was talking

[00:22:06] to me about white lotus season one I was like who was in that one again that one the show that about Sydney Sweeney and her friend having the drugs and then they're taken away from them and then it's never the same after that I liked

[00:22:20] white lotus season two though I thoroughly enjoyed it in all the ways I think that you're you know that most people did white white lotus might have made my list but you know it was more of a guilty pleasure anything but I really like season two and

[00:22:34] with season one I had this funny feeling where I wasn't that into it but I couldn't stop watching it like I was like well I gotta watch the next episode it felt a little trashy by the way this isn't on my list for because I just

[00:22:48] I don't know like there's only three but Atlanta seasons three and four maybe especially four is so fucking good and the fact that people aren't raving about it and in fact they seem a little down on it they've cooled yeah I like it's just mind-boggling to me like

[00:23:06] like I get it more with season three than season four but I think they're both just totally brilliant and he's clearly somebody that like that whole team what's the director's name hero Mariah hero Mariah yeah and him and hero Mariah and all the performances there's just so good

[00:23:26] like there's just at the top of their game and like if they're gonna do something a little offbeat or not what you expect or not what you want like who gives a shit it's just like these are people that are just supremely talented giving

[00:23:40] you something that is always compelling to watch and I love it but that's not mine so I should stop talking. Well you know I want to say this you know I think what happens sometimes is when the creative person behind something might feel like they're getting

[00:24:00] shoved into a category they push out of it and I think that makes for great art but it does lead to disappointment so like I remember the wire season one I was like yeah this is about some like some good drug shit some like

[00:24:14] black shit like some you know and then like season two was like some some Greek shit I was like yeah Dock workers Greek like no this isn't what I signed up for that's second season like yeah totally and that second season is now my favorite season that's totally

[00:24:30] like that I remember I haven't rewatched it in a while but on the rewatches season two just kept climbing in the rankings you know yeah exactly it's the same thing I think also there's something about Donald Glover where I think people feel like he might

[00:24:46] have too high an opinion of himself or something yeah and so they want to take him down and maybe part of that is because he's black but I think it's more his artistic ambitions that people think he doesn't necessarily hasn't earned or something

[00:25:04] you know like I think he really thinks he's like David Lynch or David Chase or something and like I think that's fine like good it's sort of dumb to judge the art by like whether or not you like what they say in interviews

[00:25:22] I mean I get it like we all want you know like humility we value humility and so I don't care for it when Donald Glover goes and says that he's amazing like I'm like just let your art speak for itself but that doesn't mean it's not amazing

[00:25:36] right exactly so my actual number two is the new Park Chan Wook movie Decision to Leave which I'm happy people are seeing and people seem to like and it's a lot it's on a lot of top 10 lists but I feel like

[00:25:52] it still isn't quite getting as much credit as it deserves because it's a little lower key than some of his other ones like Old Boy or The Handmaiden or the other movies in the vengeance trilogy but it's not really that low key and now I've seen

[00:26:06] it like two and a half times and it's just freaking awesome like it's just so well done start to finish it's something that sticks with you you're still thinking about afterwards you're wondering you realize that every second of it you're just kind of glued to the screen

[00:26:24] and even if you don't know exactly what's going on or why you're compelled by it and then when it all wrapped you know has a fantastic ending and is it a murder mystery yes kind of but it's really about a cop who's investigating at the a woman

[00:26:44] for killing her husband and you know clearly there's some sort of attraction between the two of them very kind of consciously hitch cocky in the you know including some direct homages to it but you know he has so much of his own style that it's

[00:27:04] in no way something where you could call derivative or anything like that it just seems to be a kind of culmination of his art in a way that actually for me the handmaiden wasn't quite even though I think that's a great movie but this just really is.

[00:27:24] Does it top Banshee's Vin Sharon for you? For me yes which I also really loved and which is an honorable mention. I think it's phenomenal I'd be surprised if we don't do an episode on Banshee's because it's also very much

[00:27:40] you loved that too right? Yeah I loved it too and I didn't put it on my list even though it would trump all of the things probably that I just have to I don't even know if this is part of my official list

[00:27:50] but I have to tell people about this channel because I love it so much. So one of the things that's on my list is just a YouTube channel by a guy named Ace Vane and I feel like it just hits every button for me

[00:28:06] so it might not be anybody's thing at all but this guy has given me so much pleasure over the year like he's made me laugh my ass off. Ace Vane A.C.E. it's a YouTube channel he's a guy who takes largely old comic cartoons

[00:28:24] like Super Friends, Justice League, Batman and he clips them and does voiceovers of like just ghetto comedy shit and like I have spent hours watching and rewatching some of these kids. He does the voices for all of them. You know like he makes

[00:28:44] Wonder Woman kind of like a hoe and like Bruce Batman's a little bitch and he also does it to a bunch of other stuff like the peanuts cartoons and it's very talented like he's just so consistently funny

[00:29:00] but I know that it's not everybody's cup of tea because Nicky can't stand it and so that's the These are the kinds of things that redeem the internet. Oh my god it's so good and the thing is he doesn't have that many

[00:29:16] like YouTube subscribers and I think this guy should be up at like millions It just makes you realize how many talented people are out there same thing with these random TV shows that are just like better than any TV shows ever made before like 1990 you know like

[00:29:32] it's just like and now there's just thousands of these things like it's just like there's so many talented people out there and we just never knew about it I know I love that wherever this guy is from I have no idea

[00:29:44] but I love that I get to just see his creativity his creativity is just incredible So my number one this is one that is from 1975 but I happen to see for the first time this year and really another one where I didn't really know anything about it

[00:30:02] had heard the name of the movie but had no real sense of what it was Picnic at Hanging Rock it's an Australian movie directed by Peter Ware based on a 1967 novel it's this insane movie about some I don't know like boarding school of just girls in Australia in 1900

[00:30:34] and they all go out for a picnic and three school girls and a teacher just go missing under mysterious circumstances on Valentine's Day in 1900 and like I don't want to say anything more about it because A. I don't understand it completely and B. I think it's really good

[00:30:56] to go into any movie but this movie maybe more than most like completely blind but it would just put me in a trance it's completely mesmerizing it's mysterious it just rules I love it and like honestly I don't even know what it's exactly it's about

[00:31:14] it's definitely about sex and teen sex and sexual repression but there's nothing like overt on that way there's nothing explicit that and I don't know like this movie completely blew me away when I watched it and I just couldn't believe here that this is

[00:31:34] a kind of masterpiece by a guy who is fairly well known Peter where did witness and the Truman show and you know kind of normal movies dead and then he just did this or he's dead dead poet society dead poet society yes like that's kind of unbelievable

[00:31:52] director did dead poet society and this the way you describe it sounds very like the leftovers kind of vibe it has a little bit of the leftovers vibe without without having the kind of despair and kind of gloom that the leftovers have but the mood of it

[00:32:10] is very exactly that yes yeah that's I never even made that connection but that's very good we didn't include anything that we talked about this year that was the one caveat that you said yeah but just a couple of suggestions licorice pizza is on my was on

[00:32:26] my oh that's so good I'm so glad you like that it's very good yeah all right let's take a break and we will come back to talk about stoicism today's episode is brought to you by givewell.org when you give to charity how much impact

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[00:40:32] so thank you to everybody for all your support we really appreciate it let's get to our discussion of stoicism thanks to our beloved Patreon supporters who voted on this for the episode topic so you want to talk about just like what like our first impressions of stoicism

[00:40:50] are because I definitely have more of a connection to it than you do I teach it I have lectured on it but I feel kind of a deep ambivalence about stoicism that is not even fully clear to me why I'm so ambivalent it has so many things

[00:41:08] that I would think that I would like like it's philosophy but it's practical it's very practical it actually makes a difference it has so much overlap with like Buddhist philosophy both at the metaphysical and at the sort of ethical level and of course I'm into that stuff

[00:41:26] and it is pretty naturalistic it has some weird metaphysics but not really and nothing really hangs on the weirdness of the metaphysics and you could certainly read it in a more Newtonian deterministic way right and I would think that that that sort of Buddhist flavor of approaching life

[00:41:48] without the metaphysics would attract you to it but maybe now I'm thinking now maybe what actually attracts you to Buddhism really is the metaphysics it's actually a good point and I think its metaphysics are more worked out and interesting Buddhism than Stoics but also

[00:42:08] just like what other kind of philosophy has this much of an impact like there's probably like 50 podcasts on stoicism that are you know among the top 1% of podcasts like if you look on Amazon for like Greek and Roman and Stoics top like books because I was doing this

[00:42:28] in trying to find a translation for what we were doing it's like I don't know 80% about Stoics So why is that? That is weird to be in I remember seeing Stoic podcasts on the top charts but I never gave it much thought

[00:42:44] and then as I was preparing for this episode I started to see this sort of like I think there is a bit of combining ideas of masculinity and of self-sufficiency and like sort of like grin and bear it like military style kinds of resilience yeah resilience

[00:43:06] who are into Stoicism and I was curious going into reading because my knowledge of any of the Stoic philosophers is so minimal basically this what we just read and what I read of Marcus Aurelius maybe like high school or early college which in my mind was

[00:43:24] like cool I don't remember shit about it and so so I was curious what I would find in here and there is some of that in what we read but is it this you know what I'm talking about like the navy seal

[00:43:36] the people who listen to navy seal dudes you know like that So first of all there's like a really good side of that right like James I didn't mean to sound judgy about it it's just that flavor there's definitely a way to be judgy about it I think

[00:43:50] I was just saying that like James Stockwell famously took the work of Epictatus with him to Vietnam and said that it was crucial for his surviving being a POW like he just studied that book and it's what got him through that experience

[00:44:10] it's taught at all the military academies Stoicism and especially I think Epictatus and Marcus Aurelius obviously you know it has that interesting thing where both like the three most famous at least Roman Stoics one was a slave one was an emperor and one was a

[00:44:30] the one we're going to talk about somewhat ambitious politician you asked why is it so successful and popular right now it is a very individualistic ethic I think is a big part of it when you see problems in the world they are problems that you feel like

[00:44:48] only you can have a real impact on how it affects you it's not something that you should depend on other people the whole ethic is that you should live in a way that doesn't depend on fortune or things out of your control and you don't control other people

[00:45:08] you control your choices you control your choices and your actions to some degree and so that's what it focuses on I think that fits the condition that we're in right now in a way that makes it useful yeah maybe there's like extra also pushback

[00:45:28] against what's viewed as like the whiny generations yeah as sperm gen Xers we are more stoic perhaps than most old people saying this new generation maybe with some reason maybe legitimately who knows what all they do is complain and whine about how they're harmed

[00:45:52] yeah sometimes I want to throw Marcus or really said my statement but the Navy seal thing you're talking about that kind of like it has a bro-ish quality to it as well stoicism and it was funny to see Seneca talking about qualities like dissing the effeminate qualities

[00:46:12] but like all that said there's some really beautiful useful great stuff in there and if you want philosophy to actually not just talk about pseudo problems and pseudo coup puzzles glorified pseudo coup puzzles then like you should be applauding it even if you disagree with certain key tenants

[00:46:34] so I have more thoughts about what it is that keeps me from fully embracing it but maybe we should get into Seneca yeah before we get into it can I ask you two related questions there is very much a common idea of what it means

[00:46:51] to be stoic and there's very much a common idea of what it means to be epicurean and both of them are not quite accurate right yeah like and so can we talk a little bit about the difference between stoic philosophy and the common notion

[00:47:07] of what it means to be stoic which is I think associated with just being maybe not on feeling but at least not expressive of feelings it's like a very much like a muted response to life but I didn't read that much yeah and that's not how I read

[00:47:27] Seneca at all and I think of all of them like Marcus Aurelius has a kind of there's a kind of Paul that hangs over his writings he's writing the meditations on the battlefield you know he's an emperor or Roman emperor in a time where

[00:47:46] you know the last like ten emperors have been assassinated or have just killed everybody like wantonly you know like that you can understand why there's a little bit of gloom that hangs over Marcus Aurelius in addition to all the like inspiring stuff

[00:48:02] and there's a kind of austerity to epictatus Seneca just seems like a normal person trying to get through life and aware of the kind of contradictions and conflicts and the ways in which the human soul is I don't know torn pulled in all these different directions

[00:48:20] and trying to just make the best of it I definitely think we're reading something on the happy life which pushes back against this idea of stoicism in a way that's healthy that it's emotionless that it's joyless that it's just austere but then I think a lot of stoicism

[00:48:38] can be like that and they do say a lot of things like don't get too attached to your kids you know think of your kids like you think of a vase that epictatus has that so when a vase breaks you don't get that upset

[00:48:54] so don't get that upset when your kid dies the modern champions of stoicism Massimo Puglucci and Ryan Holiday who does the daily stoic podcast they're very upbeat and almost a little defensive too of this aspect of stoicism but there's a reason why people think that of the stoics

[00:49:20] it's not based on nothing I think there is a kind of humorless austerity to some of their writings in contrast to the Epicureans there doesn't seem to be a kind of a lightness a kind of enjoyment of life everything seems to be like a project of making yourself

[00:49:36] a better person well it's funny because by the way it's Puglucci I just want to correct myself it's funny that this is called on the happy life because immediately I'm like well the stoics care that much about being happy like I thought they didn't

[00:49:52] so maybe as you say different flavor or at least an attempt to focus on a different aspect of what it means to be stoic at the same time Marco Cerellius had 14 kids and only like 6 of them survived so you could

[00:50:06] and I think listeners have said this to us you can understand maybe why you might want to cultivate a slightly different attitude towards something I think both of us think is sacred like your relationship with your child because it wasn't necessarily expected that the child children would live

[00:50:24] or that your loved one might die and especially if you're living in the time of the Roman Empire where you just had these fucking insane psychopaths just like wantonly cruel psychopaths running the country so that you might think that you're not at all in control of your fate

[00:50:40] or the fate of anybody that you cared about like there is something I think that makes sense about cultivating that kind of attitude but even still there is something about it that just is a little cold and as much as the modern popularizers will say

[00:50:58] no it's not cold at all it's about joy and resilience and I'm never fully convinced by those things right, right and we've talked plenty about like our problem with that whole detachment but it's true we have led lives where we can enjoy our attachments in a way that

[00:51:16] yeah I thought the same thing when infant mortality is like 50% or whatever it does make sense to not get too attached to any one of them alright let's turn to the essay and maybe just talk briefly about Seneca and his life he's an interesting figure among the Stoics

[00:51:34] kind of a middle ground in some ways in terms of his position between Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius did you do any research into his life his biography? yeah I did and he was pretty fascinating he was very wealthy apparently filthy rich and was I don't know like rose

[00:51:56] in the ranks as a politician but was a tutor to Nero right? of all the things to happen to have your pupil turn into Nero must not be must not be too satisfying I mean he was also like exiled before that exiled Caligula almost killed them

[00:52:18] but for some reason decided not to I mean they were all just they're constantly being assassinated or fearful of being assassinated and then just killing everybody around them Seneca was Nero's tutor when he was a kid yeah and then ultimately Nero said you have to kill yourself

[00:52:36] right and it seemed like Nero was jealous you know Seneca was apparently very talented he was gifted very like persuasive he had talents and abilities that maybe you know people were envious of and you get in this text

[00:52:52] a lot of the first bit of the text is like fuck all you haters like it's like very much like stop hating on me you're all just jealous yeah there's a defensiveness to it I think you said earlier and I think part of the reason is

[00:53:08] because he was rich he was somewhat ambitious he was working with somebody and teaching somebody who he knew could not have been further away from the Stoic idea and he enjoyed a lot of the things that Stoics supposedly turned down their nose at

[00:53:26] and I think he really did enjoy them more than a lot of other Stoics did and part of this essay or letter or whatever it is is trying to reconcile that you know trying to reconcile Stoic teachings with his life and the life of a normal successful

[00:53:44] Roman aristocrat which I like that part did you read about his death yeah but refresh me so he was told he had to kill himself it seemed kind of dramatic he seemed like he had a flair with him theatrical well but it's also it had

[00:54:06] like a dark comedy aspect of it his hero is Socrates his second hero is Cato who also killed himself in you know fairly dramatic way but Socrates is kind of his ultimate model and he had like the perfect death as described in the Fado of you know

[00:54:26] drinking the hemlock with all his friends around him and Seneca wanted to model that I think legitimately sincerely wanted to model that and so I think he tried to like slit his his wrists and it didn't work it didn't work so like he's just bleeding everywhere but he's

[00:54:44] still alive so then he's like alright that's okay I'm gonna drink poison now and he's like Rasputin yeah exactly drinks poison still doesn't die and then has to go to a steam bath I guess and that finally finished him off yeah it's partly I guess kind

[00:55:04] of moving but also like could be in a naked gun movie you know I know I think what I read was like he was just old and didn't have enough blood circulating he's like Mr. Burns right but you know there's something very poignant about that

[00:55:24] like he's been waiting his whole life Stoics is something we can talk about but they love to dwell and contemplate death and he really had this hero and model who he genuinely thought was like the ideal to try to live up to and he actually does it like

[00:55:40] okay can I write down my will and then the Nero's people said no you can't and he's like okay and so he just does it and that could and he tells his friends he doesn't want to bury oh and everything's

[00:55:52] going according to the plan except that he won't die that's pretty funny alright so let's dive into the text I guess like can I just start with like at the very beginning he says something that is so central I think to his point

[00:56:10] which is that the more you strive for happiness the less likely you are to find it which I think is just like a deeply true thing and I was interested in how he was going to deal with that because it can be paradoxical to write a treatise on

[00:56:32] how to be happy and say like the more that you search for happiness the less you're going to get it so what do you search for but again I think that's kind of the central point of the book it is and but do you

[00:56:42] find that it's been reconciled like well no it's not been reconciled like reading it thinking of you especially it's not reconciled for you because why me because I think this is where he focuses on like reason giving like motivating you to virtue I do

[00:57:02] I am satisfied with what he says which is something I truly have come to believe which is live your life in such a manner that you think you will be a good person and the side effect will probably be happiness but it might not be

[00:57:18] and I think that's okay you know he has this example of planting corn might give rise to flowers blooming but that's not why you planted the corn but nonetheless it's likely to happen that you'll get the flowers and that's the happiness that I think

[00:57:36] you know when you take a step back and say well then why are you writing this treatise isn't it to be happy yeah so he could have just called it like how to be virtuous and just said but if it's practical advice I think it's good practical advice

[00:57:50] I agree with you in the sense that it's good practical advice not to just try to optimize your happiness like you have to find things that you do for their own sake like he thinks like he talks about virtue that will have the effect of making you

[00:58:10] fulfilled or flourish this is the kind of eudaimaniac happiness yeah that we're talking about it's not just being like in a good mood but at the same time the way I understand stoicism is it is about how to live a eudaimaniac life

[00:58:28] I mean that it's true that they think virtue is co-extensive with that and that they think that pleasure doesn't begin to describe what like happy or virtuous life is even though pleasure may be contingently attached to aspects of it but I do kind of think of stoicism

[00:58:52] as a guide to a happy life and so you can't just say that the ultimate goal is virtue and pretend that happiness is disconnected with that like it's not just hopefully you'll also be happy it is no this is being happy yeah no you're right and it's still

[00:59:12] unclear what the connection between being virtuous and that happiness really is on his view I'm not quite sure what it is like how that's supposed to make you happy aside from just the direct advice about like not you know not indulging in pleasure too much

[00:59:28] and not being a slave to fortune which I think is like the fundamental of stoicism as I understand it is you worry about the things that are in your control but anything that's not in your control you make yourself immune to being affected

[00:59:46] by that in a way that relates to your happiness which isn't the same thing as in a way that affects your pleasure and actually one of the interesting aspects of this essay is it's focus on what they call preferred indifference things that don't have relevance to

[01:00:08] whether you're happy or you die maniac or whether you're good or virtuous but all things considered you'd rather have them than not have them like health, like your family living, being alive like good friends, like wealth, like money in this essay especially

[01:00:28] there is less biting of the bullet than in other stoic works that I've read there is a real attempt to reconcile the life of a fairly ambitious politician who enjoys having sumptuous dinners and enjoys the fruits of being famous and well, you know well respected

[01:00:52] while at the same time you know trying to be a stoic. One other thing about Seneca that we didn't even mention is he's like a playwright that wrote some seriously up plays like tragedies that I remember reading this like 10 years ago like a tragedy by Seneca

[01:01:12] and it was like one of the most disturbing fucked up things that I've read you know like that has that kind of Roman, Ovid like the things that these people came up with it goes even beyond the Greeks in terms of just how dark

[01:01:28] and depraved it can be and that's another thing that's like how does that come into his whole philosophy of life did I read right that Shakespeare's tragedies some of them were inspired by Seneca? I think so, yeah yeah I have no idea but I will say this like

[01:01:48] it is unfair as he points out many times to criticize his philosophy just because he is wealthy like what else is he supposed to do not be wealthy he has this sexual he has this section where where he's very much like

[01:02:06] am I supposed to give away all my money what point is that and then I'm supposed to give it away to people who are going to squander it like no like you look like you want my money exactly this episode of Very Bad Wizards

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[01:04:36] this episode of Very Bad Wizards one of the things this essay I guess it's a letter it's a letter to his brother or something yeah a little short on is the details what it means to be a stoic yeah and also on what it means to be virtuous

[01:04:54] like I wasn't quite sure aside from listing a few things like being honorable living in harmony with nature that's what again I was going to add what does that mean actually is that just a stoic saying like to live in accordance with nature I think I was reading

[01:05:14] about Nietzsche critiquing it by saying like how are you supposed to not live against nature what does that even mean we're all natural beings so anything that we do is living according to nature I think it's more not resisting nature not resisting the fact that we're gonna die

[01:05:34] something that you should think about not resisting when you're sick you're sick don't bitch about it don't complain about it that's just part of living a human life is that you're sick you're in pain you might face some threats to your safety don't fight these things

[01:05:50] don't try to conquer them just use your reason figure out like what it is that you have control of and then whatever you don't have control of you just accept as this is what it amounts to to live a human life and don't grind

[01:06:08] your teeth about it and push back against it and then you're almost not surrender to it because that sounds too passive but live in accordance with it live in the flow of it this is some of the stuff that it reminds me most of

[01:06:26] some of the Buddhist teachings because it really is about acceptance and not trying to change the way things are but figuring out a way to live in harmony with it because true wisdom consists of not departing from nature and in molding our conduct according to her laws

[01:06:46] and model a happy life therefore is one which is in accordance with its own with its own nature and cannot be brought about unless in the first place the mind be sound and remain so without interruption and next be bold and vigorous enduring all things with most admirable

[01:07:00] courage suited to the times in which it lives careful of the body and its appurtenances yet not troublesomely careful yeah right it's like a middle way like a middle path it must also set due value upon all the things which adorn our lives without

[01:07:16] overestimating any one of them and must be able to enjoy the bounty of fortune without becoming her slave yeah and that's the thing that Seneca emphasizes here which I like that a lot of the other Stoics don't he's blessed down on pleasure in this

[01:07:32] even though he's very critical at times of the Epicurean school he's less down on pleasure than some of the other Stoics and so it comes across I don't know more human there's something about Seneca that I feel like is more open to just yes there's some good things

[01:07:50] like the dice can roll your way and there's nothing wrong with appreciating that yeah no I totally agree I liked it for that reason as well and you know one of the things he says a few times is it's hard to know how much he meant it

[01:08:08] but I believed him when he says you could criticize me and say well look you have all this money and all these pleasures and he says well then take my money away and let's see how I deal with it versus how you deal yeah and I think

[01:08:26] he is really trying to emphasize take the good with the bad and you can't make either of them your focus you know if you because if you pick it up you have to lay it down and it really I think is deeply wise but it's

[01:08:44] it can sound very easy kind of the thing that's kind of easy to say well especially since there's no real guidance about how to do that I mean the idea sounds great enjoy the when the dice roll your way but be perturbed when it goes against you

[01:09:02] if people are unfairly criticizing you if you're just getting exiled for no reason or if you're getting told to kill yourself for no reason well it's all good because you have lived a life of virtue and you have trained for this but what is this training

[01:09:24] and the more you get into the details about how are you supposed to not be perturbed a loved one dies or when you are close to death the things you have to do to get to that place might not be that attractive or conducive to what

[01:09:40] you consider a flourishing life yeah in my right to read that one of the things that he's trying to say is that one of the reasons to not indulge or seek pleasure is because which is the idea that if you embrace pleasure

[01:09:58] then pain is going to hurt that much more so like don't indulge pleasure in that way you're kind of training yourself to also not wallow in pain well you become dependent I mean we know this right you become dependent on pleasures so if all of a sudden

[01:10:20] if you just get in the habit like I am of just having a few drinks every night then all of a sudden when you're not able to do that you're going to be perturbed internally you're going to feel like oh I got to figure out

[01:10:32] how to deal with that I have to figure out with any kind of addiction with phones even with friendships that are suddenly taken away from you or these are real pleasures that you get from them but there's a danger of getting too

[01:10:46] attached to them, too dependent on them too habitually inclined to indulge in them when you lose the opportunity as can happen through no fault of your own you will then become unhappy, weak and like he says ferocity is born from weakness

[01:11:06] so you'll just become a really bad person at that point when you feel weak, when you feel like you're not in control that's when we're at our worst yeah I like that so you've built your house on like a foundation of contingency that you have no control over

[01:11:20] and yeah this is why by the way no not November is so difficult right exactly because you're you know one becomes accustomed to certain pleasures to nodding in November and then all of a sudden yeah so this is like you know a while ago in our

[01:11:40] AUAs and our Ask Us Anything we were talking about our daughters seeking advice from our the artificial intelligence is created from our transcripts of our episodes but it got me thinking about the advice that we would actually give our children

[01:11:56] and this is the kind of thing that I want like I want my daughter to read this and have it sink in and to actually like I do feel like so much of the suffering that she has in her life

[01:12:08] to the extent that she has just a very good life but it is because she's not stoic enough you know like she's dealing with the way life can go is hard when you're young because you haven't had much life you haven't had much experience

[01:12:28] and if you've had a good life at all it can be a real rude awakening when all of a sudden things go poorly as they're going to like inevitably they're bound to if you live long enough they're bound to yeah but so and this is always

[01:12:46] the issue with stoicism it's like well are some of those dependencies, are some of those passionate commitments to things like also part of what's making life good in the first place you know and I think that this is definitely one where both things can be true

[01:13:04] yeah I think there's no way like it's not true that Gen Z could be a little more stoic like that it would do them a little good to be a little more stoic I think and not just Gen Z although that's their reputation but millennials

[01:13:22] too and also boomers that's it those are the only generations that need to be more, no I mean like certainly me I feel that that's probably, it might even be more true of me than it is of my daughter but it's also true

[01:13:42] I think it's also true that some of those attachments that you have are part of why life is good in the first place I know we've said that a lot it's hard, yeah it's hard I do think that as I get older and for instance I lose

[01:13:58] more loved ones or just whatever you know the various things that happen in life that don't go your way that I feel like I have a better understanding sort of along the lines of what Seneca is trying to say I have a better understanding

[01:14:14] of what it means to not like how to still enjoy the things you have and the relationships you have and even the material goods you have without with at least some understanding that at any moment they could all be taken away and

[01:14:32] for instance you and I have talked before about well what if you weren't a professor what if like you couldn't be a professor of philosophy I feel like I'd be fine like I love what I do but I would find something else to do

[01:14:48] and if I could be that way about everything in my life then I would feel like maybe I'm not being contradictory by saying don't get too attached yeah I agree with you and especially when it comes to my job or maybe less my relationships

[01:15:08] those are the hard ones the attachment to other human beings is the thing that I find the hardest to reconcile where it's like no I really I'm not like I would really be devastated if anything happened to my daughter

[01:15:20] and I don't mind that I would be like shattered like you know in this weird morbid way wrong if you ever think about it like I don't know if you like me have dark thoughts sometimes like what would happen if anything happened to my daughter

[01:15:36] I'd be like yeah it might be suicidal and that's okay that's okay to be that and then you know who knows what would really will hopefully never find out but like it feels like I don't aspire to shrug it off or even to

[01:15:54] because I think that's unfair to the Stoics to say you're supposed to shrug it off like you know like it is on a bad beat in a poker hand or something like that but I also think in some ways it's not unfair to them

[01:16:08] and like that needs to be maybe more directly addressed that issue because it doesn't it's this has always been the issue it doesn't seem like something to aspire to that's the kind of vulnerability that it seems like are part of what constitutes

[01:16:26] a flourishing life and even a virtuous life at least the way I understand virtue yeah and and I think like as we've discussed many times like a source of meaning one of the things I wanted to ask you about was like how down he seems about pleasure

[01:16:46] so there are various times where he just when using the word pleasure he describes it as like here's an example pleasure is low slavish weak it's like a perishable at Hansen Holmes it's Hansen Holmes or the brothel in the tavern it's weird that the association of anything pleasurable

[01:17:06] is so base it like really reminds me of like the hardest core Christians that you know where it's like anything that is pleasurable is associated with sin so that's funny because I did not get that impression with this and I sometimes do from the Stoics I actually thought

[01:17:26] when he's criticizing the Epicureans he seems to be doing it not in a way that says pleasure is debased and low as much as it cannot be the reason that you do things it can't be what you structure your life around which is what

[01:17:48] at least in the beginning he says the Epicureans do they are trying to live a life with that minimizes pain and that maximizes the pleasure and that is the wrong orientation to have and the thing that you don't want is to be only cultivating virtue in order to

[01:18:14] have a pleasurable life but pleasure in itself isn't bad or even something to turn up your nose at was my sense he does say that but he also says one sentence later you will find pleasure skulking out of sight seeking for shady nooks at the public baths

[01:18:32] hot chambers and places which dread the visits of the Edisle soft effeminate reeking of wines and perfumes pale or perhaps painted and made up with cosmetics there is a little bit of dissing pleasure totally and especially what it seems like sensual pleasure and in that way

[01:18:54] it does have that kind of Christian element and also the Socrates at least as Plato describes him has this idea that pleasure in and of itself it's not something that you should banish from your life but it's a little bit animalistic it's a little bit the thing that's

[01:19:14] going to pull you away from virtue in some way and pull you away from the good life because and I think this is right it traps you it's he keeps saying you I enjoy pleasure when it comes to me but you're a slave to it and

[01:19:30] it's the being a slave to it that I think is the real problem and pleasure our lives are kind of dealing with how we can both incorporate that into our lives without becoming too dependent on it and I'm not good at that

[01:19:46] I could use to be more stoic when it comes to that without and I say that without thinking that it's base in any way yeah so one of the things that he's saying about pleasure is that maybe helps explain to me why he thinks this way is that

[01:20:04] it is impermanent and changeable as pleasure dies at the very moment when it charms us most it has no great scope and therefore it soon clois and weres us and fades away as soon as its first impulse is over indeed we cannot depend

[01:20:18] upon anything whose nature is to change it's just unreliable it's capricious but then he also says that he holds the opinion he says and I'm different from other stoics that he says that the teachings of epicurus are upright and holy and if you consider them

[01:20:38] closely austere for his famous doctrine of pleasure is reduced to small and narrow proportions and that the rule that we stoics lay down for virtue the same rule he lays down for pleasure he bids that it obey nature but it takes very little luxury to satisfy

[01:20:56] nature and the epicurians were about that too you know like they didn't want to be dependent on contingencies any more than the stoics did which is why they tried to cultivate habits that didn't require a lot of luxury and didn't require a lot of things

[01:21:12] that were out of your control to happen so I think this essay he shows after criticizing a school of epicurianism also that the two are much closer than people commonly assume right he says it's undeserved that they have a bad name that they are an academy of

[01:21:32] vice so having just said what he said about pleasure being just changing and fleeting and not something that you want to base your life on he contrasts it with virtue and he says do you ask what I seek from virtue I answer herself

[01:21:52] for she has nothing better she is her own reward does this not appear great enough when I tell you that the highest good is an unyielding strength of mind wisdom magnanimity sound judgment freedom harmony beauty do you still ask me for something greater of which these may be

[01:22:06] regarded as the attributes it's it sounds like he's saying virtue it sounds almost platonic like the virtues are immutable and internal oh yeah like there this like beauty and harmony are things to seek that will never change yes yeah I think that's right I think

[01:22:28] that it is what they think and I think it is very platonic it is in line with some of the later play-doh stuff where this is the only thing that is real that is unchanging the real and the unchanging are the same

[01:22:44] thing so yeah I mean I think they are they go hand in hand in that way it's just like with play-doh but he may be even more so less clear why yeah with the stoics you know play-doh has a metaphysics that I can wrap my head around

[01:23:00] that kind of justifies that but there's no like allegory of the cave for stoics at least in the stuff that I've read right it's funny when you first were bringing up the topic and said something about metaphysics I was like well what would the stoics even care

[01:23:14] about metaphysics like it just seems like practical advice for life but it's true like when you start pulling the you know the thread you are left with this question of okay like are we seeking virtues because these are universal truths

[01:23:30] to which we should all aspire and if so then what does that mean like there is some deep question there about that might be metaphysical that he just never talks about well especially the alignment with virtue and flourishing or happiness or eudaimonia like I do think that

[01:23:50] if you want to maintain that it's possible to be guaranteed flourishing life by living according to what you have control of living according to reason which you love and living according to nature and that as long as you do that you're guaranteed a happy life

[01:24:10] it does take a rational universe for that to make sense you know right and this is where I think the epicureans in my view are more I don't know they're more accurate they're more realistic in that no you might just get fucked an Aristotle too

[01:24:26] you might just get fucked there's a lot of things that if the roulette wheel comes on the whatever two zeros the greens there's nothing you can do you're fucked right and the stoics are strongly committed to the view that that's not true that

[01:24:44] all as hard and as maybe impossible to attain as the ideal is it does exist and the only way that that could be true is if the universe at a fundamental metaphysical level is rational yeah and that's my feeling about the connection between the metaphysics and the ethics

[01:25:04] there but I think you could abandon the metaphysics slightly alter stoicism maybe make it a little bit less certain about the connection between virtue and happiness and then it would still be mostly recognizable for what it is yeah okay so I mean I really liked this and I

[01:25:30] I think you've expressed this as well like I want there to be more concrete advice and I don't know if that's a flaw in in this like I don't know if this is the way that's what he even cared to do

[01:25:50] but I did wish there was a little bit more meat to the like how am I supposed to go about doing this well yeah and it's not fair in some ways because this is the 0.01% of the stoic writings that even Seneca has written

[01:26:08] never mind like all the other stoics and I think they're good in terms of giving a good amount of practical advice without also giving you a 12 step program or whatever you know like they don't pretend that it can be made that precise I almost feel like that's more

[01:26:28] our fault in terms of what we chose not that there would have been an easy one to choose but I think our folk this essay's focus is on distinguishing between Epicurean philosophy and also kind of reconciling the fact that stoics don't live like diogenes like in ditches and

[01:26:48] and don't scorn all the traditional ways that other people you know like all the ambitions and hopes and desires of normal non-stoics you know it tries to reconcile having those desires with the stoic view but you're right it's not how are you supposed to make yourself

[01:27:16] this immune to the swings of fortune he doesn't really say other than not to get too attached to pleasure I don't know maybe I'm being unfair maybe that is enough maybe just thinking about not being attached is a good step like I mean

[01:27:36] maybe I don't need a list of rules maybe the point is to think more about how I just arrange my values I don't think it's more than I mean I don't think it's quite just how you arrange your values but like say something

[01:28:00] that both of us have gotten addicted to all the wordle games you know like these kind of trivial things that nevertheless are kind of fun you know would Seneca say don't it's a little unclear from the essay don't start getting too attached to that

[01:28:16] to the point where if you go a day with or a couple days or a week without doing it that's going to perturb you it's going to live to inner turmoil in some way and so I think you're always supposed to be a little

[01:28:30] cautious of things like that nevermind something like drinking or drugs so that's part of it right you should start being suspicious when you start getting too dependent on things for your day to day happiness and security yeah so maybe the advice just follows that you should audit yourself

[01:28:58] I used to do this thing I haven't done it in years every once in a while I would quit caffeine just to see that I could yeah and so I would go whatever just for a month I'd be like no caffeine and it was miserable

[01:29:14] for the first week or two the first three days I'm just napping constantly and I thought at some point well why do this to myself I can drink caffeine whenever I want it's not like I'm going to be at a risk of being taken away from you

[01:29:30] right but maybe that kind of discipline is what I need to bring back to my life to just like practice not doing certain things that I've become dependent on no no November I seriously could the idea behind it right I've seriously considered doing something like

[01:29:54] controlling my phone like even I don't think I could ever do this getting like a dumb phone you know but I'm not I do feel like I am too attached to me too and I think there's so many things like that and then you realize

[01:30:10] how much of my day I was spending on ensuring that all these things are taken care of and that I have access to all these things that I've become like part of my day-to-day life I'm like this can't be good for you and I don't do things like

[01:30:26] sober September or like I don't do any of that people will say I wanted to go a month without drinking to like you said to see if I can and it's like well I'm sure I could but that's the wrong attitude it is probably a valuable thing to

[01:30:46] deprive yourself of things I'm probably a little better than I used to be with my phone because I would have these devices that would disconnect me from the internet and all of that but you start to be less vigilant about those things and all of a sudden you're

[01:31:02] dependent on it in ways that aren't transparent to you I think the Stoics are right to point out that this is the kind of thing that naturally happens to human beings if you aren't focused enough on what's good for you right yeah well hey maybe that's

[01:31:22] the takeaway gonna just stop talking to you on my phone stop texting for one, yeah for one I'm too dependent on our friendship I'm gonna list out my I think I'm gonna do something like list out or time track like what I do you know like I

[01:31:40] spend that should have been my guilty confession how much fucking time I spend just like watching YouTube videos scrolling through Instagram or Twitter playing those fucking word games that's like the bulk of my life right now just think of all the times where you just

[01:31:54] look at your phone because you have nothing else to do and you feel that little twinge of anxiety about that thing and you just want to distract yourself from it like it would be really good for and this is I think so squarely within the Stoic ideal

[01:32:08] of just dealing with that like that little bit of unpleasant anxiety rather than looking to repress it in somewhere distract yourself from it you know I'm inspired Tamler I'm inspired Seneca has inspired me I'm inspired too although I don't know what exactly like tomorrow yeah

[01:32:30] what are you gonna do tomorrow still be sending each other I'm not gonna not send you my my octortals definitely not I mean that's fine right it's just we'll do that in February no octortal October how about that no set of chordals September relax like one by one

[01:33:02] alright I hope this was satisfying to those Stoic listeners who wanted us to do this and if not well you shouldn't be dependent on us doing a good podcast that serves you right and that's on you yeah yeah alright join us next time I'm very bad with it

[01:33:24] just to say