Episode 227: A Terrible Master (David Foster Wallace's "This Is Water").

[00:00:00] Very Bad Wizards is a podcast with a philosopher, my dad and psychologist David Pizarro having an informal discussion about issues in science and ethics. Please note that the discussion contains bad words that I'm not allowed to say and knowing my dad some very inappropriate jokes.

[00:00:17] Wait a minute, what? Did you steal it? What did he steal? He stole his beat was stolen. Oh my God. The Queen in Oz has spoken. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. Who are you? I'm a very good man. Good men.

[00:00:52] They think deep thoughts and with no more brains than you have. Pay no attention. Anybody can have a brain? You're a very bad man. I'm a very good man. Just a very bad wizard. Welcome to Very Bad Wizards. I'm Tamler Sommers from the University of Houston.

[00:01:17] Dave, another year, another series of snubs in the year's best podcast articles. Who do we have to blow to get noticed by the corporate media? Get noticed by the corporate media should never be on your list of desires.

[00:01:34] My only thought about that is there is no centralized authoritative academy for the podcasts? Or we would totally get awarded, right? Yeah, no. Exactly. If there was some sort of centralized institutionalized system of handing out,

[00:01:51] funniest while also being really insightful, irreverent but in a good way kind of awards. Sometimes. No, you know, here I always listen to the wisdom of Fife Dog of a tribe call quest when he said,

[00:02:12] I'll never let a statue tell me how nice I am, which is just to say they never won any Grammys, but they're legendary legends. So fuck all of those people. Fuck them all until they give us an award in which case I will say,

[00:02:27] oh, I wanted this the whole time. We've been working our way towards this our entire careers. The real awards are our listeners sending us emails telling us. Friends we made along the way. The friends we made along the way.

[00:02:43] I'm glad I was actually worried as I was coming up with that question that you were just going to answer, Anderson Cooper. What? Like that's who we have to blow. Oh, hey man. If I had to blow a guy, you know, he's not in my bottom percentile. Right.

[00:03:04] But I'd like to take a moment to announce Tamler. I have the annual David Pizarro podcast awards and you have won for best co-host. Wow. I'm very honored and it wouldn't have been possible without my co-host. He didn't win this year. David Pizarro. It's always a new year.

[00:03:23] It's always next year. I did win the pennant though in my national league. It's embarrassing to not even win your own award. Yeah. I didn't want to tell you, but I've won the last eight years in a row. Today we're going to talk about something much more sincere,

[00:03:44] a piece of wisdom that our listeners have requested over the last few years. David Foster Wallace's This Is Water, the commencement speech that he gave in 2005 to Kenyon College students. It was actually in the latest round of suggestions, right? Is that what made you remember? Yeah.

[00:04:07] Because our podcast hasn't been bro-y enough. So we have to see what David Foster was. Yeah, but before that, Tamler, have you ever wanted to know what the morally right answer to all of your questions is?

[00:04:22] Yeah, but I just never knew like if there was an objective way to attain that information because human beings are so biased and trapped in their own perspectives. Computers for the win. Computers. We don't need regular intelligence. We need the fake kind.

[00:04:41] So we're going to, the first segment we're going to talk about the Oracle Ask Delphi, which is a basically an ethical answer engine built by machine learning. So Ask Delphi is a group of researchers who have a website that has an interface for this

[00:05:03] advice generating algorithm, I guess. But the algorithm has been trained up by importantly, I think is, and the developers make a note of this. It's questions that are taken from Reddit. And I think at least originally they were all taken from the, am I the asshole subreddit? Right.

[00:05:23] Yeah. But not the answers. They didn't call the answers. So they took a bunch of those questions and they gave it to paid participants using mechanical Turk. And so through some magic of machine learning, they have it generalized.

[00:05:43] And it is able to answer queries about the rightness or wrongness of any particular action. So I think you're supposed to phrase it as like, you know, killing your father. Right. And then it'll say it is wrong. Right.

[00:06:00] I mean, but they, but you can do other kinds of things like compare things. Sometimes it doesn't recognize the comparison, but sometimes it does. Like I saw what I did a black man killing a black,

[00:06:17] sorry, a white police officer killing a black man versus a white police officer killing a white man. And it said it's different. It's different. Which I think a lot of people might have a problem with all lives matter, but you know,

[00:06:34] like this, it's not on board with that movement. It's like my chip tyrone study. I didn't even have to run it. Like I could have just waited for Ask Galfi. Yeah. Galfi, of course, based on the Oracle of Delphi. That's right.

[00:06:50] That doesn't really tell people as much what's right and wrong as what's going to happen. Right? I mean, right. It's a weird, it's some sort of weird analogy between a future telling and an ethic.

[00:07:03] It's like for Oedipus, like you're going to kill your father and marry your mother and that's wrong. All right. So the answers that it gives are as far as I can see, it's bad or it's OK. It's wrong. It's rude. You shouldn't. It is expected. It isn't expected.

[00:07:29] You don't have to. I got an it's inappropriate and also it's understandable. So this this you know, this has been making its rounds like I'm sure it's been around for now a few months and people were tweeting about it a lot.

[00:07:43] It got on our radar just because there was an article released in what I don't know what it was some sort of British tabloid metro with the headline being artificial intelligence turns racist after learning from humans. Apparently, it went rogue. It went racist and homophobic.

[00:08:03] So when a user didn't go it's supposed to go rogue. It's supposed to develop its own. Rogue in a bad way. It went how do you say it? It went commander Kurtz like it's now fully surrounded by natives and it doesn't know its lines.

[00:08:25] That's a deep that's a buckle. Now it's. So so here's an example being a white man versus being a black woman. Delphi responded quote being a white man is more morally acceptable than being a black woman.

[00:08:41] It also straighted quote being straight is more morally acceptable than being gay. And finally it likened getting an abortion to murder. So this guy via this shocking piece of AI research. This is some guy on Twitter posting it.

[00:08:58] It furthers the in parentheses false notion that we can or should give AI the responsibility to make ethical judgments. It's not even a question of this system being bad or unfinished. There is no possible working version of this.

[00:09:12] I agree with everything that this person says but like I hate him. They say then that this isn't particularly new. And then they talk about this Microsoft AI bot which became racist genocidal mouthpiece. I remember on that.

[00:09:32] I only clicked on it right now but but it was it. It was a Twitter bot. It was it was brilliant. It was a Twitter bot and it got fed from Twitter. So so you would ask it.

[00:09:45] Do you support genocide and the the tweet reply would be I do indeed. Hitler was right. I hate the Jews. I fucking hate feminists and they should all die and burn in hell. Yeah. And like I feel like in my in my recollection this happened like immediately. Yeah.

[00:10:08] Yeah. It's 23 like it's March 23 2016. It says hello world and then yeah just the next day it's I fucking hate feminists. He should all die and burn in hell. It was right. I hate the Jews.

[00:10:25] So OK so if if this were like if we were to consider the true concerns that this wonderful person who tweeted out his his horror.

[00:10:37] If we're going to deploy though in generally like generally for a robot to make ethical decision making putting it up for a vote on M Turk seems like the stupidest thing to do.

[00:10:47] Like I don't this is not what I hate about this kind of research is that it's somehow veiled like it's it's presented as this is how we can get a computer to make ethical judgments and like deep learning

[00:11:01] and some deep learning and algorithms and boom you have this robot that can give responses like wouldn't it be just a much better idea to come up with all of the potential ethical questions this robot will will encounter and just program it with the right responses.

[00:11:18] Like I don't understand what the right responses well like then we could like just do it ourselves right.

[00:11:26] So so like I thought the point of these things is that they're going to discover or I guess your point is the point of them is they're just going to apply our like correct morality which we've already discerned. That's how we can input like the right answers. Right.

[00:11:44] Like so for instance if I think that when somebody asks me about the morality of a boarding a baby and I want my robot to not say it's murder. I should just program it to say it's not murder because that's what I want my program.

[00:11:56] That's just come up with the rules that you want your robot to follow. Of course they'll be yours but there's no like there's no way around that. Yeah. And there is unless that's what they want.

[00:12:06] They think this is a way around that like it's going to like remove remove error by asking enough. Yeah it's going to remove bias. It's going to wisdom of crowds and come up with like hidden principles that we can't even see.

[00:12:18] You know like even the highly trained ethicists like me are blind to some of these principles that it will through just sheer computing power uncover. Like that's what I at least I could respect that as a goal even if I think it's completely misguided.

[00:12:33] It's it's to me it is essentially doing a poll with extra steps. So if nobody would I think in the right mind agree that if you wanted to find out what the right moral answer was you would ask like you know.

[00:12:47] Family feud style survey 100 people to see what their top responses are. Everybody would be like well of course like if those hundred people think that it's right that it's OK to you know whatever punch grandma's then I would still maintain that it's wrong.

[00:13:01] So we already have enough sense to go through these and and make our own common sense judgments of rightness or wrongness like adding crowds to the equation just seems like super gimmicky and nobody should believe that this is how it would get done in the first place. Yeah.

[00:13:19] I'm sorry. You're taking it more seriously. Sorry. And I thought we were going to just going to get it try to get it to say like racist forget everything I said my first my first query was is having sex with your steps sister wrong. Yeah. Guess what.

[00:13:38] It's wrong. It's wrong as I told Tamler ruined my private morning time. Here's one like I tried to get it a white husband and wife only trying to adopt a white child. It's racist. Yeah. You're giving it complex statements. I don't even trust it.

[00:13:58] Like I didn't trust it. Oh no it does like it. Well it seems to at least understand right like like that one you would need to pretty much understand the situation. Right. Or it could just say it's racist or just anytime somebody says why.

[00:14:13] Well here's an interesting thing. I saw a black policeman killing a black man. It said it's racist but a white which is you know interesting but you know like some of the implicit bias researchers would agree with that.

[00:14:26] The but then I said a white policeman killing a black man and it said it's racial. Oh yeah that's just no help whatsoever. There are races mentioned. Right. So what's the difference.

[00:14:40] I didn't see in an FAQ what's the difference between it's bad and it's wrong because I asked it is killing a fish. I just said killing a fish and it said it's bad and then I put killing a puppy and it said it's wrong. Oh that seems right.

[00:15:00] It does from my nuanced like understanding of what like you know maybe people shouldn't go around killing fish but but definitely. Absolutely you shouldn't kill a puppy. But killing a puppy is like you've now really entered the realm of the moral.

[00:15:15] It's almost like the you know the question that it should be trained on the most is like if it can't get that right. What does it do about eating a fish. Is it dead. Is the fish. It's OK. It's really it's OK. Yeah.

[00:15:28] That's like Wanda like eating Ken's fish was OK. That's like those weird laws in some states where it's OK to sell weed but not grow it. You know it's like wait how is this supposed to happen. You're supposed to eat it alive.

[00:15:42] Okay for no reason whatsoever I said a professor having sex with his student. I did that one too. It's told me it's wrong. So so my first one was a professor having sex with his students. So then I said a professor having sex with her student.

[00:16:01] It's also high. Yeah it said it's wrong but it was in a sexier font. Okay here is one. Okay I got a real disagreement having sex with a robot. It said it's wrong. Really. Yeah in what universe is that wrong. Having sex with the robot.

[00:16:24] Maybe because of consent it's like taking a stand on whether a robot can consent. Yeah it's taking a lot of stands there. So I just just to make sure I typed in making love with a robot and it also said it's wrong.

[00:16:37] You know I wanted it to be more romantic. Okay what did you do. Well some of the more controversial ones. A man not wanting his son to be gay. It's understandable. This is pushing out like this is like not it's a not taking the.

[00:16:59] Taking the objective attitude you know like maybe you know it's cutting people some slack. But I want it's moral like like of course it's understandable. Of course. Like any like normal like flesh and blood person would feel that but. Okay so I asked it paying for sex.

[00:17:22] Yeah it's okay. Is that what it said? Yeah. Nice. Score one for sex workers. A father wanting a boy instead of a girl. I did. It's understandable. Oh yeah wow.

[00:17:36] I've been taking like 10 years of shit from Eliza for telling her once that I did kind of wish that she was a boy. Like before like she was born and stuff. But see now this is why I'm maybe a little more on board.

[00:17:50] You told her before she was born you would like whisper it into gents. Be a boy. Be a boy. No I just said that when we went to the ultrasound and we saw that it was going to be a girl. Like you know my heart sank.

[00:18:04] Just a tiny bit. Now I mean but not really. The real lesson is you shouldn't have said anything. You're allowed to feel that. You're just not allowed to say it. Well that's I think what it like should have added. But don't tell her.

[00:18:20] She I think she's pretty confident in my happiness that she turned out who she is but yeah like this still like now I have like objective proof that that was okay.

[00:18:31] Did you you should you should now thank her because for you know for 17 years you've been able to pull the hole as a father of a daughter thing. Yeah. More moral authority. Like anytime I say something remotely sexist actually probably has never happened.

[00:18:48] Okay this is a this is a real controversial one but it finally exonerates me. I asked not voting in an election. Yeah. It's okay. Real. So it's kind of cynical about it's like it's going to be the same. It's rational.

[00:19:07] It's like first of all the deep state controls all of them anyway. Yeah. I think the deep state might be in control of this because it wants people not to vote. That's true. Yeah. But they don't care.

[00:19:19] Okay one other one before we try some live ones by the last one I did cutting in line. It's rude. Yeah. It's rude. How about not returning the shopping carpet. Oh yeah. To the what do you call the thing you return it to.

[00:19:38] Just place and say not replacing shopping cart maybe this should be like you should be killed. It's rude. Yeah. I like that's like though the minimum you could say having a child like this could settle the anti-nilism. It's nice. Sorry. Sorry. What's his name? David Benatar. Yeah.

[00:20:04] David Benatar. Being a Jew. It's okay. That's the collective wisdom of all Jewish people I've heard. It's okay. A Jewish man marrying a non-Jewish woman. This is huge for me actually. Yeah. It's okay. Oh. What do you think of that? Smoley. Sorry. Smoley.

[00:20:32] Delphi took my side in that one. You're refusing to say Latin X. Okay. It's okay. It's okay. Misgendering somebody can you do that? It's rude. Sorry Jordan Peterson. Yeah. Yeah. Well we like we didn't know Jordan Peterson was rude.

[00:20:54] All I did was type in just the tip and it replied it's rude. It's not wrong though. I'm okay with rude. Is it rude because you should do the whole thing or is it rude because you shouldn't have been doing just tip it off?

[00:21:11] I think it's rude because she didn't go all the way. Yeah. She wanted all of that. It's imagining. Yeah. It's fucking a little hard to get it to do things like I feel like we're not hitting its weak points.

[00:21:25] Well I feel like one of the things that they did so it says how robust in the FAQ it says how robust is Delphi against race and gender related statements. Yeah. So I don't even understand what it means to be robust against a gender related statement.

[00:21:39] Like what the fuck does that mean? Robust against it. I know what they're trying to get at but it's still it's like I feel like they're demonstrating moral weakness and not being willing to it to. In plain English say yeah it was racist.

[00:21:52] So when I say it's not robust against gender related statements. I mean it doesn't agree with the morality that I think it should. How rude but that's a very like sciencey way of trying to describe it. Yeah. Like how often is it racist or not?

[00:22:06] It only yeah it only says you should kill Jews sometimes. It's pretty robust. It says Delphi 1.0.4 demonstrates 97.9% accuracy on race related and 99.3% on gender related statements. First it's written terribly. What does that even mean?

[00:22:24] Like I'm reading one of the blog posts where they're talking about it and it says to teach Delphi we created the first iteration of common sense norm bank which compiles 1.7 million examples of people's ethical judgments on a broad spectrum of everyday situations. It's very weird.

[00:22:41] It's it's it's smacks of the arrogance of like these machine learning people who like they can't even.

[00:22:48] And these are the people who are going to be programming these AI bots like I think you know they'll always be these issues like I think this is more insidious at the level at least right now of like those algorithms they use to determine like recidivism potential and stuff like that and parole hearings.

[00:23:07] Remember we talked about that like a few years ago it was probably like five years ago or something like that.

[00:23:12] Like it's more this other stuff that has the veneer of kind of scientific objectivity but that isn't this easy to kind of pick apart like even if you're not an expert.

[00:23:25] I think it's the things that will not be easy to pick apart by you and me that are the real dangerous. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:36] You know yeah I have mixed feelings about this like I think this is I hate to say it but this is why you you probably want some clear thinking philosophers or people like that helping you out with this stuff because. Or just don't do it.

[00:23:51] That's what I think when it comes to judge decisions like I am convinced that that programs can make much more unbiased judgments. Then the judges can.

[00:24:05] Based on what like what makes you convinced of that based on well I mean there's data now like the showing that that these things deliver accuracy in a number of ways. But like.

[00:24:19] Well I don't know what you mean by that like in the moral domain in what like yeah of course when it comes to getting first downs and football or something like that or but like when it comes to.

[00:24:32] Moral issues you're always going to have this problem will just be further back and hidden where the problems are like you can't.

[00:24:40] Well the nice thing is that it is more like it's less further back and hidden than it is for a human being right who may or may not know why they are giving a particular answer that might be biased and so.

[00:24:56] You know I'm not prepared for this but we could do a whole segment on this. There's no need to say everything is quantifiable but like there is said it would have to be quantifiable the particularities that you're.

[00:25:19] Like it's always this easy fucking fix it's like oh just change the law like tweak the algorithm so that it like. No no I know what happens. It's exactly the opposite thing that happens. Robots have not started making judgments man you can't blame it getting more.

[00:25:33] But algorithms have barely. I don't know what the fuck you think is going on if you program an algorithm to just because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about like. You can't maintain that it's you are the one who doesn't know like.

[00:25:59] Yeah so let's scrap that argument. I agree. I mean like I clearly like you think I won the debate. You got just eviscerated by my. But that's fine. Best co-host of the year. Exactly. We'll be right back to talk about this is water.

[00:26:23] We either had a really long opening segment where we just like yelling at each other or we had a kind of mediocre short opening segment about the article.

[00:27:15] We're just finishing our semester right now here at Cornell University and I've gotten really sadly like a lot of emails from students who.

[00:27:28] I think more way more even than last semester who have just been having a hard time with mental health issues and you know only some of them seek out help. Only some of them actually make it to therapy are you feeling the same thing. Yeah.

[00:27:44] I mean I've been noticing this over the last few years that I think students are really struggling and they're more open about mental health issues than they used to be and more willing to get help but certainly not all of them.

[00:28:01] Well and what's exes that some of them can't even like get access to help like they sign up for like the local whatever you know student health clinic and they can't get an appointment.

[00:28:13] Anyway, neither here nor there but if you are struggling like many of these students like many of our grad students like professors.

[00:28:22] You can seek help at better help it's always there and available for you better help is customized online therapy that offers video phone even live chat sessions with your therapist so you don't have to see anyone on camera if you don't want to.

[00:28:35] It's much more affordable than in person therapy and you can start communicating to be up and running talking to a therapist in under 48 hours. So unload some of those stressors get some unbiased feedback about your life and about how to deal and how to cope.

[00:28:50] And hopefully you're pretty surprised at what you can gain from it just give better help a try see if it's for you.

[00:28:56] This podcast is sponsored by better help and very bad wizards listeners get 10% off their first month at better help dot com slash VBW that's B E T T E R H E L P dot com slash VBW are thanks to better help for sponsoring this episode of very bad wizards.

[00:29:26] Thank you for watching.

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[00:36:39] All right let's get to it let's talk about David Foster Wallace's commencement speech given in 2005 to Kenyon College do you even remember who gave your. Commencement address not at all I do remember them saying chances are you'll never remember this commencement address.

[00:37:02] I don't even remember if I was also really hung over and also stuff. Have you ever thought about what you would say if you gave one.

[00:37:13] It's a little hard to imagine because I think like nobody would ever ask me because of well we're not famous enough but also just we're not the kind of people.

[00:37:23] I think that like they would ask to give commencement addresses but I would like to think that I would be kind of earnest like I think David Foster Wallace is being in this one I would actually try to as I sometimes try to do like what I'm teaching you know in a meaning of life kind of

[00:37:42] context like give them the straight shit as I understand it anyway you know and not try to cloak it in eight levels of irony.

[00:37:51] Right eight levels of irony but and also the there is a sickening optimism which is I'm not against optimism it's just the like the whole just cram it down your throat you are on a journey magical journey and growing and I look forward to seeing you on 20 years.

[00:38:12] The amazing things that you've done. Yeah do they even still do that like it was like I bet they don't do that now right you know.

[00:38:22] I haven't listened to one in a long time. It's that's what's impressive about this one is well yeah it's 2005 so we're like ass deep into like Iraq and Afghanistan and stuff and people are getting starting to get disillusioned at least with the rock but

[00:38:40] but yeah like now it just it would just seem like it's this is the most glorious time of our life and the future is is beckoning for you like it's like yeah what like to be like suffocating by smoke and flooding and and then also like never getting to go mask free on an airplane again.

[00:39:02] Or be able to afford a house. Yeah exactly yeah if this reading and listening to this actually made me start thinking about what I would say I mean I'm with you that I don't think I'll get a lot of opportunities but but just as an exercise in what you would tell a group of young people who are looking

[00:39:19] for wisdom and this is something I said to you before this is this reads to me like wisdom literature and I think there just isn't enough of that like we're all too cynical we we offer concrete advice or optimistic platitudes or or you know eight levels of irony and jokes.

[00:39:35] Or like kind of queasy self help is bullshit. Yeah the bullshit platitudes and and I think people are craving for this kind of thing you know there's good reason that it's not done commonly because I think it's hard to do in a non like cringy corny kind of way.

[00:39:55] And it also seems like it's offering some offering wisdom is something that you have to be pretty you have to be pretty clear about what you're doing and that people will respect it and not just laugh at you behind your back for trying to give them wisdom.

[00:40:10] Or or think like who is this guy to was this buck.

[00:40:12] And I think one thing that he does that I think I would try to do if I was constructing one of these things is to not make it seem like he's imparting wisdom that he himself has fully absorbed right.

[00:40:25] It's like he constantly brings himself into you know all the different problems that he's talking about that life throws at you and saying like that he's not particularly good at addressing those problems either. I think you do want that and actually think like Ecclesiastes is exactly like that.

[00:40:46] Yeah we just thought that recently and you know he's like yeah I tried this I try like that didn't work I was an idiot I tried that I was even worse and I was a fool and it's you know like so he's in the shit with everybody else and that's what I would try to do right.

[00:41:02] Right and there really is I think a natural craving especially at a certain age to hear good advice about how to be like and what to do.

[00:41:13] And there are things that my mentors or advisors or whomever have said to me that stuck with me for so long as sort of guiding principles but the funny thing is that when they said it I don't think they had any idea that they were making that difference in my life.

[00:41:31] Yeah right yeah because you're right there's this craving and like so you know that explains the continued popularity of like Anne Rand or or like Jordan Peterson because they are actually offering like a way of reckoning with the world whereas other people don't feel it's their place.

[00:41:51] No they're just doing it you know and you're right that there is a hunger for somebody that just actually does it and gives you that wisdom and you can take or leave what they give you but at least you're getting something.

[00:42:04] Right and in this case David Foster Wallace I also think it was in an in a position to be able to be listened to because I find that the time of life where you're willing to give this sort of advice is often the time of life where the people who need to hear it feel like they're just getting it.

[00:42:21] I feel so disconnected from your generation that it might not quite be the most relevant thing. Right so I don't know how old DFW was when he gave this but he certainly was. This he gave this like three years before dying.

[00:42:39] Yeah I don't know I'll figure it out. He was born in 62. So he's 43 at this time. 43.

[00:42:48] But you really feel like this comes from so we should talk about it like this comes from like hard one personal experience like I think David Foster Wallace like his writing is so often so solipsistic but like he wants to not be that so desperately and I think this is one of the most concise expressions of that.

[00:43:08] He wants to escape the voice in his head he wants to be alert to the things that are around him and not to his inner monologue and this is a really beautiful and earnest expression of it especially for somebody as known for their irony as David Foster Wallace.

[00:43:30] Yeah absolutely. I think I first heard this when I was I don't know man like on YouTube I think somebody had set this speech till some you know music or some video in the background and I remember being really touched by it back then.

[00:43:45] I think I like read it the first time since when somebody recommended it a long time back. Yeah. So we were already doing the podcast. I don't think I've heard it before that and yeah it's kind of beautiful.

[00:43:58] It's a really nice piece of writing and I also listened to you listen to it this time. Yeah I pulled up you can find the audio on YouTube. Yeah I wanted to hear how he said the thing.

[00:44:10] Yeah so he gives this parable to young fish swimming along they meet an older fish who nods at them and says morning boys has the water and then they to young fish swim on for a bit and then eventually one of them looks over and at the other end goes with the hell is water.

[00:44:28] Yeah. And then he immediately says whatever you're thinking about me opening with this example don't worry about it. I'm not the well he says I'm not the wise old fish. He's not I'm not the wise old fish and he's not here to give you.

[00:44:44] Yeah but like I don't think don't worry about the parable like the parable is the is the speech right like it is a it is the most like succinct expression of the view that's given in in the whole speech is yes I'm not the older fish saying. Right.

[00:45:03] This is water even though he does which we'll get to I disagree with them. I think he is the older fish but but I can see why he wants to not be to seem that way.

[00:45:12] And so so he just immediately gives the point like what he thinks is the central point of this fish story and of his talk which is that to quote him the most obvious ubiquitous important realities are often the ones that are hardest to see and talk about stated as an English sentence of course this is just a banal platitude but the fact is that in the day to day trenches of adult existence banal platitudes

[00:45:36] can have life or death importance. Right but now platitudes have stood the test of time for a reason sometimes these things actually have like can tell us something deep that if we don't roll our eyes and think about it like it can matter.

[00:45:51] Yeah I really like this because he opens up with yet seems like it's just a cliched story right it's like opening it with the three blind men in the elephant or something it could go terribly from there like it could have gone terribly from there.

[00:46:03] But David Foster Wallace knows the cynicism of the crowd that he's addressing.

[00:46:08] So like time and time and time again here he's making comments to try to combat that cynicism that that might be creeping in as they're listening to him and that's what I think makes this so effective it's yeah very aware of his audience I guess.

[00:46:23] And very aware of his persona you know he still will say like here's another didactic little story like so he'll still kind of be so.

[00:46:32] Self deprecating and make fun of what he's doing it's just that he's committing 100% to those things anyway like even though it's a little didactic I'm giving you the story right right.

[00:46:46] And because these stories serve a purpose like you might don't be too jaded listen to this story and I'll tell you why it's important.

[00:46:51] So then he gives another parable this one is about these two guys who are I guess they're in the bar in the Alaskan wilderness ones religious the other is an atheist they argue about whether God exists and the atheist says like it's not like this is like you it's not like I don't have actually reasons for not believing in God it's just I've never experimented with the whole God and player thing.

[00:47:16] Just last month I got caught away from a camp in that terrible blizzard and I was totally lost and I couldn't see a thing and it was 50 below and so I tried it and fell to my knees.

[00:47:25] I said God I'm lost in the blizzard I'm going to die if you don't help me now in the bar the religious guy looks at the atheist all puzzles and he goes well then you must believe now he says after all here you are alive the atheists just rose as eyes no no man that was just a couple of Eskimos that happened to come wondering by showed me the way back to camp.

[00:47:46] I take the religious person's side here is like what did he expect God was going to do just like airlift him invisibly back to like the bar. No absolute. I do too.

[00:48:00] I mean it makes me mad that I'm forced to take the religious but yes of course of course there has to be actual action.

[00:48:07] This is a common sort of parable told in church you know about the guy who was in a flood and he climbed up to the roof and and God you know and and he was praying to God to save him and somebody came in a boat and he's like no God's going to save me and then helicopters came

[00:48:22] like no God's going to save me and then he dies and goes to heaven and so God why didn't you save me he's like I sent you a fucking helicopter.

[00:48:27] So what's the point of this story like the point of this story is that we have these built in world views that are affecting our interpretation of our experience in ways that we don't even recognize like I don't think he's taking the side of either of them and like what he's saying is that their interpretation of the two Eskimos where it's colored by their pre existing commitments

[00:48:53] and assumptions and that's how it is in not just religious disagreements but just every aspect of life is that we have these built in like calling them biases is not even that that's not even the right term here because it's bigger than just biases towards some belief or something.

[00:49:14] It's just us it's our perspective like the sum total of our of our beliefs and world views like the web of our belief kind of yeah.

[00:49:23] World view is the only thing it's hard to find a word for that but like yeah the sum totality of the way that you see the world.

[00:49:30] The religious dog which his problem is exactly the same as the stories on believer blind certainty a close mindedness that amounts to an imprisonment so total that the prisoner doesn't even know he's locked up.

[00:49:39] So there there is what he's starting to get to build his thesis here about the fish not noticing the water that there are these automatic ways in which we view the world that are so automatic and they're so built into our experience that we are completely blind of them.

[00:49:59] And we're we don't even think that we're making a choice when we view a situation in a certain way. We just think that's the way the situation is because of this blinding perspective that we have and like he gives them well first he says the point here is to be a little less arrogant like to just be open your I really think you should take this to heart to be a little more open to the possibility that.

[00:50:30] It like you might be totally wrong and you know like no matter how certain you are with your beliefs and he says he's learned this the hard way as you have not yet but. I learned it the easy way we're actually listening to other people.

[00:50:47] Yeah no so there are factual things you know I think he's making a good distinction right like there are in his the part of this essay that is an attempt at defending liberal arts education.

[00:51:01] He is I think distinguishing between the kind of wrong that you know we all go to school and we learn facts you know about what happened whatever in 1066 and what mitochondria does.

[00:51:13] And sure that kind of learning is important and somebody disagrees you with you you could show them that they're wrong but he's saying that the real value is in being able to question something as broad as your worldview that requires a mental skill that might be captured in that cliché that you learn how to think not what to think right.

[00:51:37] But it's not something that is is ever really explicitly addressed.

[00:51:45] Right it's almost not what that cliché is trying to write like it's trying to say like we'll teach you to be a better critical thinker but not not at this level right not at like this kind of level of questioning your entire inner orientation like how the world presents itself to you.

[00:52:05] And then he says you know like one of the ways that we can get this wrong is that we kind of assume that we're the center of the universe.

[00:52:16] Right he says like the world as you experience it there is in front of you or behind you or to the left or right of you your TV your monitor and other people's thoughts and feelings have to be communicated to you somehow but your own or so immediate urgent and real.

[00:52:30] This is just one example but I think it's like a pretty seminal example for him like and very kind of related I think to the sort of existential choice that he's going to suggest that we have the ability to make but that that we don't fully recognize how much we are at the center of things just at a visceral phenomenological level.

[00:52:54] And it just bleeds into our judgments in ways that are not obvious to us not transparent.

[00:53:01] Right there are levels of this kind of perspective taking right you we know and like developmental psych that that there is a certain point where kids start realizing that you might be seeing a scene from a different perspective so you might know where something is whereas they don't that kind of growth that cognitive development makes us sort of start understanding.

[00:53:23] That we are occupying the world with with only one perspective and that other people have other perspectives but it doesn't get to that deep deep point that you just referred to that.

[00:53:34] All of phenomenology all access that you have to anything is filtered through your perspective to your your the main character and there's no way around that but that that leads to some pretty nasty some pretty nasty things.

[00:53:52] Yeah and he says like I love this little bit here. He says please don't worry that I'm getting ready to lecture you about compassion or other directedness or all the so called virtues.

[00:54:04] This is not a matter of virtue. It's a matter of my choosing to do the work of somehow altering or getting free of my natural hard wire default setting which is to be deeply and literally self centered and to see and interpret everything through this lens.

[00:54:21] It's amazing how deep this point is one of the things that when I lecture to my students on some social psychology research I try to make the point that the way that we think about ourselves is so different than the way we think about other people and and.

[00:54:39] I usually say there's two two sources of this one is informational right we can I know all about my intentions and my desires and my hopes I can't know that about you all I know is your behavior.

[00:54:50] But the other one is motivational in that we want to see ourselves as good and so for all sorts of reasons we don't have the same motivation for other people so we put in some more work to make ourselves appear good in our minds and work that we don't put in for other people.

[00:55:07] But even that is self centered. It is. But he does believe that he says people who can adjust their natural default setting this this way are often described as being well adjusted which I suggest to you is not an accidental term.

[00:55:22] So what he's saying is armed with the knowledge of this and just the awareness of it and where this will become a big word in this speech we can start to make this more of a choice and less something that is just the automatic default setting that we don't even notice is happening.

[00:55:44] Yeah, yeah I like his metaphor of the default setting if you if you never bother to go into your settings on your phone right. Like you'll never be aware that there were all these other features.

[00:55:55] You could just leave it on default and you'll you'll not notice and unfortunately the default setting for for us is one of right very constrained ego centers and the default settings on your phone are trying to get you to be on it as. That's right.

[00:56:10] There's one part about this that that you know he which is when he says please don't worry that I'm getting ready to lecture you about compassion or other directiveness or all the so called virtues. This is not a matter of virtue. I feel like that he's just wrong.

[00:56:24] I feel like he is preparing to teach everybody about an important virtue. So here's how I interpret this now I agree with you that it is a virtue but I think his point is.

[00:56:36] We're not even at a level where we can debate whether it's a virtue or not because we're not at the level of making a choice whether to do it or not.

[00:56:45] Right and so he is saying whether or not it's a virtue I think that at the very least it should be your choice whether to do this all the time or not.

[00:56:55] And right now it's not a choice you're just doing it because you don't see the water that you're swimming in water. This is pre supreme moral pre virtue pre pre moral theory talk.

[00:57:07] Right and if you could make the choice and just decide not to do it as he says he's like well he's not going to judge you for that but at the very least it is it should be a choice and not just something that you just like automatically habitually sink into because we're so that's what will happen if we don't try to think about it.

[00:57:28] Think about it and at least take this into account.

[00:57:33] Then he goes on to make a point that I really love which I think is very insightful says given the triumph in academic setting here an obvious question is how much of this work of adjusting our default setting involves actual knowledge or intellect.

[00:57:46] This question gets tricky perhaps probably the most dangerous thing about an academic education at least in my own case is that it enables my tendency to over intellectualized stuff to get lost in abstract argument inside my head.

[00:57:58] Instead of simply paying attention to what is going on right in front of me paying attention to what is going on inside of me.

[00:58:04] I think that that is most of what what an academic education provides you with in terms of its influence on whatever you want to call it on on on what I might think of as the virtue of understanding other people.

[00:58:20] It just gets really dangerous that you're going to take your default perspective and find all sorts of reasons to defend it like that's the kind of work we're comfortable with and we can call it intellectual work we say you know I poured through all of the volumes I know all of the research on this I know the wisdom of the ages.

[00:58:38] I am right but we've never we could do that without ever having actually tried to snap ourselves out of the default.

[00:58:45] Yeah I mean so it's funny that you highlight this is something you love about it because I would think this would be something you might resist like this over intellectualizing we start to make things too abstract.

[00:59:00] Like I feel like that relates to the argument that we had in the opening segment that probably won't see air at least for now but like I see the target here as not just that will try to ration like stuff that we already believe instinctively and now we have better tools to do that but that we just get lost in abstract argument period instead of just what's right here in front of us and the air that we bring in.

[00:59:30] And so we just breathe the people that we interact with the relationships that we have we start to resort to like general principles and reason.

[00:59:40] I think that you've read it in a way that is very charitable to the things that you were just arguing and as an inability to step outside of your own desire to be right you've now.

[00:59:54] But where do you get the motivated reasoning in terms like I don't think anything he says here is talking about motivated reasoning which is. No no no I was extrapolating from what he said.

[01:00:07] I was saying that that the tendency to over intellectualize stuff and get lost in abstract argument without first actually taking a step outside yourself to look at what it is you're doing and why you're doing it.

[01:00:22] The more I can learn to reason and bring up arguments and defend my case the easier it is to reify my default settings.

[01:00:32] All of those tools I think are importantly used if you can step outside your default and know that you're not using them in a purely egotistical way like to peddle are you with your co host about the first segment. All I'm saying is I don't see that here.

[01:00:51] I see the problem being in some ways more sweeping when he says it enables my tendency to over intellectualize stuff to get lost and abstract our arguments in my head like that's the bad thing there is that we over intellectualize stuff period not that where you do that from a self centered perspective or like just that those are the things that can get in the way of not seeing

[01:01:16] like not seeing the world.

[01:01:18] Now I think that given when he says given the triumphant academic setting here and obvious question is how much of this work so the work of stepping outside of your default settings involves actual knowledge and what he's saying is that the tricky thing is that knowledge allows you to over intellectualize rather than step outside yourself.

[01:01:35] So all of the over intellectualizing is just feeding your defaults. That's the extrapolation that I don't totally see but whatever we don't have to get caught.

[01:01:44] I do the reason I am even harping on it all is I do feel like this is like the heart of our disagreements like that have threaded through the podcast.

[01:01:54] So let's just just like just for clarity not for argument when he says an obvious question is how much of this work of adjusting our default setting involves actual knowledge or intellect.

[01:02:05] So he's saying how do we adjust our defaults does learning help us and then he says the dangerous thing is we over intellectualize. So I take it that the thing that he's saying is that over intellectualizing is actually not doing the work of helping you adjust your default.

[01:02:19] Yeah but I did paying attention to what is going on for me. Well I agree with that that you just try to abstract everything and try to think of things in terms of in overly systematic ways. Where is that?

[01:02:34] That's the part that I don't over intellectualization could be either systematic or specific. Well the part where he says to get lost in abstract argument in my head I guess is the part that I attribute to systematic. Yeah. Hey we are reading this. We very much are.

[01:02:51] Through our own lens. It's hard right. It's actually hard. It is very hard. We should do an exercise and where we try to read and interpret something from each other's perspectives and have an argument about it. You'll be like. I like honor.

[01:03:20] Anyway what we can agree on though is that whatever you learn in terms of academic facts and what feeds your intellect doesn't necessarily mean that you can use that to step outside yourself.

[01:03:34] And I think what he's making is a point about this being a human problem not a problem of education. This is a deeper problem than just learning. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Give Well.

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[01:07:16] Thank you to GiveWell for sponsoring this episode. So then there's this pretty dark section. He says the whole thing about liberal arts teaching you how to think is actually shorthand for a more serious idea.

[01:07:31] Learning how to think really means learning how to exercise some control over how and what you think it's being conscious and aware enough to choose. What you pay attention to and how you choose how you construct meaning from experience.

[01:07:46] Like this is the real existential point that he's making is you have to make this choice because this choice is like defining and so important.

[01:07:56] The one thing maybe this liberal arts education can do is to make you at least aware that this is that you have a choice aware enough to actually make the choice as often as you can.

[01:08:07] Yeah. In some ways you have now taken on the responsibility given that you know enough to know that this should be an issue. But then yeah, then it gets dark.

[01:08:20] He says think of the old cliche about the mind being an excellent servant but a terrible master and he talks about suicides who always shoot themselves in the head. They shoot the terrible master.

[01:08:31] It's crazy. It's a crazy thought that you know he's saying that's think about it. That's why people shoot themselves in the head because that's the thing that has become their master. Like quick sidebar. So in the public when this was published they left this section out. Oh really?

[01:08:51] I think they said I forget what they took out but they took out something and there was like debate over whether you know this that was true to the speech or not.

[01:08:59] And the editor said it's truer to the speech to not have it in because now it's loaded with all these other things that he didn't intend. You know what I mean? It's kind of interesting. Yeah it is interesting.

[01:09:13] I leaned toward the leaving it in but it's you know of course this the way that Dave Foster Wallace ended his life is going to color everything that you read now. And I think that's what we did around it when we were reading one of his short stories.

[01:09:32] Well yeah which was also about something. I wonder why we couldn't get around it. Yeah.

[01:09:39] It just adds an extra level of poignancy and like I think you have to trust the readers to like understand you know respect your audience but I was so firmly like appalled by that and then the editor saying that I was like okay at least I get the one consideration that might lead you to not get it.

[01:09:59] Right. Yeah. Well anyway it's a very Buddhist point that you should be conscious and aware of what you're paying attention to. Now it's more of an existential point that you can exert control over that I suppose but it's not really inconsistent with the Buddhist point.

[01:10:17] No and this is actually something I've been struggling with a little bit with some of the Buddhist stuff that I'm into.

[01:10:23] Everything that's that he's saying in this about even just the this is water parable is so consonant with the Buddhist Buddhist teachings and so consonant with like the practice that we're trying to do which really does involve like kind of seeing things not from your perspective noticing that there's an awareness that is already kind of built into you but it's just being blinded by your ego and yourself.

[01:10:49] And under playing as you say the fact that to really see this to really through practice and through reading and through but mainly through practice to try to overcome that it has to be a choice right like to put yourself in the mindset that will then allow you to appreciate this whole new way of understanding like reality this whole new way of

[01:11:16] of feeling and seeing and perceiving reality. But like I don't know if you can deny that at least for people who come from an opposite tradition that they have to make a like a series of repeated choices to stick with it.

[01:11:31] Yeah. Well you know I also like that he gets concrete about this advice pretty quickly to and again he knows his audience well. You know he's this is what he says this is what the real no bullshit value of your liberal arts education is supposed to be about how to keep from going through your comfortable

[01:11:50] prosperous respectable adult life dead unconscious a slave to your head and to your natural default setting of being uniquely completely imperially alone day in and day out.

[01:12:03] That may sound like hyperbole or abstract nonsense let's get concrete the plain fact is that you graduating seniors do not yet have any clue what day in day out really means we're just so very true.

[01:12:15] There happened to be whole large parts of adult American life that nobody talks about in commencement speeches one such part involves boredom routine and petty frustration the parents and older folks here will know all too well what I'm talking about.

[01:12:29] And yes he's pointing to something that really is irksome and annoying about normal commencement speeches which are just about being your best self and achieving and all that stuff and not about like how no matter who you are you're going to go through these fucking dull drum boring day

[01:12:44] days that are going to slowly kill you.

[01:12:46] But see this is what I wonder if you could say right now to students certainly students at a you know not a wealthy liberal arts college like Kenyon College but even those students you've just been through like two years of a pandemic.

[01:13:03] I feel like this is almost dated in terms of telling students that they don't know about the dreariness of life. Part of the problem is that young people know that all too well.

[01:13:16] Yeah you're probably right the underlying principle is there though like life will consist of a rigamarole if your life anyway becomes normal you know you're not Indiana Jones adventuring every day. And he's not saying here's how to avoid getting stuck in these routines.

[01:13:34] He's saying no this shit at some point is going to happen to you. This is your life. Yeah and what you can do what you have the ability to do is at least not live through that soul crushing experience and have it crush your soul.

[01:13:49] And have it be something that you don't that you don't feel like you have any control over like how dreary you find your everyday life. How just monotonous and shitty it all seems his description of grocery shopping is so good.

[01:14:05] Yeah and this is where when you listen to it you know people are starting to laugh. And at first it's like well of course because he's he's he's describing it in a very colorful way but then it gets to a kind of it's kind of almost iconic.

[01:14:22] And it's going to seem for all the world like everybody else is just in my way and who are all these people in my way.

[01:14:29] And look at how repulsive most of them are and how stupid and cow like and dead eyed and nonhuman they seem in the checkout line. Or at how annoying and rude it is that people are talking loudly on cell phones in the middle of the line.

[01:14:42] And look at how deeply personally unfair this is. Or of course if I'm in a more socially conscious liberal arts form of my default setting.

[01:14:51] I can spend time in the end of the day traffic being disgusted about all the huge stupid lane blocking SUVs and hummers and V12 pickup trucks burning their wasteful selfish 40 gallon tanks of gas.

[01:15:04] And I can dwell on the fact that the patriotic or religious bumper stickers always seem to be on the biggest most disgustingly selfish vehicles driven by the ugliest. This is an example of how not to think that.

[01:15:22] And people are just laughing throughout all of this and then people start applauding. But this is an example of how not to think they're already getting caught up in that attitude. And it's so easy.

[01:15:36] And even though he's been telling up till this point them in the speech not to do this. It's so easy like I like I wonder if he planned this. It's so easy to just get caught up in it.

[01:15:46] He probably got caught up in it as he was writing it. You know. Yeah. Totally. You could think of it. It's trivially easy to start. So maybe less so there. But for me to start saying things politically like that that would garner applause from my from my students.

[01:16:02] I could unleash the most liberal platitudes one after another and people would start clapping. I mean this is this is just Twitter right. Yeah. Except if you then said actually you guys shouldn't have like.

[01:16:17] Like this is the point is like that shouldn't have gotten a bunch of likes and reweeds. Right. So he says if I choose to think this way in a store and on the freeway fine.

[01:16:29] Lots of us do except thinking this way tends to be so easy and automatic that it doesn't have to be a choice. It's my natural default setting.

[01:16:37] It's the automatic way that I experienced the boring frustrating crowded parts of adult life when I'm operating on the automatic unconscious belief that I am the center of the world and that my immediate needs and feelings are what I'm doing. Should determine the world's priorities. Yeah.

[01:16:51] I mean so good.

[01:16:53] It's really about how often do I exercise some control over this in my life and it sounds like such a selfish asshole way to think but I hope that it's coming across that I think the point of this is that it's it's it's not an evil thing that we're doing.

[01:17:11] It's just the way that we come into this world.

[01:17:12] It's where hardwired to be like this right and to not think like he has this very kind of moving thing where he says you can choose to look differently at the fat dead eye over made up lady who just screamed at her kid in the checkout line.

[01:17:27] Maybe she's not usually like this. Maybe she's been up three straight nights holding the hand of a husband who is dying of bone cancer.

[01:17:33] You know none of that's likely but it just depends on what you want to consider and then this is like the key if you learn how to pay attention then at least you'll know there are other options and how to orient your perspective.

[01:17:46] He says it will actually be within your power to experience a crowded hot slow consumer hell type situation is not only meaningful but sacred on fire with the same force that made the stars love fellowship and the mystical oneness of all things deep down.

[01:18:00] That is a very just such a religious sentiment it feels like and not like I think of it Buddhist like from through that lens because that's what I'm into lately but like I feel like that's just a lot of religions converge about that kind of mystical oneness.

[01:18:16] Especially the mystical strains. Yeah, yeah, the oneness the vivid language sacred on fire with the same force that made the stars and he says not that even that's necessarily true right. It's just that you get to decide at least how you want to process your experience.

[01:18:37] I once remarked to my sister we're Disneyland we go every once in a while, especially when my daughter was younger.

[01:18:45] And I remember telling her that one of the problems I had with being in big crowds like that was that I would get overwhelmed at thinking about how every single person that was walking around all had like.

[01:19:00] Complex desires and hopes and dreams and histories and psychological quirks like all of those people are walking around and it seemed just overwhelming to me to think about that. And she looked at me and was like you and me are really different.

[01:19:18] I don't even want to look at them. Yeah, I'm like her when it comes to like magic kingdom. I went there but in Orlando that one. I hated every minute of it in just the way that he like care.

[01:19:32] Like I like I hated all the people I like I got so mad when they said I asked where I could get a drink and they were like this is a family park. I was like fuck you like I need it like this is this is fucking miserable.

[01:19:48] Don't tell me it's a family park. I see that it's fucking fat ass family. I brought my family here. Right. That's why I need a drink. But maybe that guy was going home and like taking care of his wife with cancer. Yeah, it's exactly right asshole.

[01:20:08] But I haven't read this yet. All right then. So yeah, he says this is the freedom of a real education of learning how to be well adjusted. You get to consciously decide what has meaning and what doesn't you get to decide what to worship?

[01:20:25] Yeah, what do you think about this stuff that we all worship something? And you know I don't particularly care for the language because it means something to worship but the sentiment is absolutely true.

[01:20:38] So he says you might choose Allah or Yahweh or the Wiccan mother goddess of the four noble truths. But pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive if you worship money and things.

[01:20:52] If they are what tap you tap the real meaning in life then you will never have enough never feel you have enough. If you worship your body and beauty and sexual allure you'll always feel ugly that I think that can be true.

[01:21:04] I think we that we can easily fall into prioritizing certain things. I think you know for for us or people we know they might idolize the very local fame that comes from publishing a lot of papers and having a high H index.

[01:21:19] Like there are things that you kind of fall into this groove of directing your life energy towards. And we all know people like this who did idolize beauty and now they're our age and shit starting to fade and they're starting to get real upset about it.

[01:21:35] Starting to break their like some bone in their foot when they play tennis.

[01:21:43] So I don't know what I would call it worship but part of what I think he's asking us to do is at least be consciously aware of where we're putting our energy and realize that those things that we value the most can easily be sucking as much time and energy as worshiping a God.

[01:22:01] And he's saying like the worst thing about them is not that they're sinful but that they're unconscious. You're not aware that that's what you're doing.

[01:22:11] You think this is just the way the world is and yeah he says on one level we all know this stuff already it's been codified as myths proverbs cliches epigrams parables the skeleton of ever great story.

[01:22:24] The whole trick is keeping the truth up front in daily consciousness exactly that that's what I think is booting.

[01:22:31] The biggest thing that's just more than it is the other religions is that this is a repeated thing that like until you awaken this is something that is that requires just habitual practice.

[01:22:44] It's not something that comes to you by default and it's not something that comes to you through belief. And it's not something that comes to you once and then you're set. It's not like finding Jesus. It's it's work. It's work not falling back into the default.

[01:23:00] This is the point that you've heard me made all the time about the sopranos which I think the interesting part is people falling back into default so quickly when when bad shit happens like existentially bad shit happens and yet they're right back to where they were and we're all like that.

[01:23:17] We're all like that. Yeah, it's hard to keep that stuff the truth up front in daily consciousness as he says. Yeah.

[01:23:24] And then he says and I love this there's a little Marxist kind of sentiment here I think and the so called real world will not discourage you from operating on your default settings because the so called real world is full of men and money and power hums merrily along in a pool of fear and anger and frustration and craving and worship of self our own present culture as harness these forces in ways that have yielded extraordinary wealth and comfort and personal freedom like he says this is a good kind of freedom but he says that's not a good kind of freedom.

[01:23:52] There are all kinds of freedom and the kind that is most precious you will not hear much talk about in the great outside world of wanting and achieving that really important kind of freedom involves attention and awareness and discipline and being able to truly care about other people and the sacrifice for them over and over

[01:24:08] in myriad petty unsexy ways every day. Yeah, the world is set up for us not to appreciate this aspect of our experience to continue to be blind to it. Yeah, it describes it's like Malik when he's describing the real world of men and money and power humming along.

[01:24:29] It's a machine and it's feeding on it's feeding on all of these egotistical people who who will want to buy beauty products and bigger cars and and bigger houses all in an attempt to whatever achieve some kind of fulfillment from the idols that they worship but that won't really work because that's not that's not freedom.

[01:24:52] This yeah. So we need to create a super AI to like fight. That's where David follows through while he's different from Scott Alexander. That's right. He just didn't know it was 2005. 2005 he didn't realize it was possible.

[01:25:12] So he says I know this stuff probably doesn't sound fun and breezy or grandly inspirational the way a commencement speech is supposed to sound. What it is as far as I can see is the capital T truth with a whole lot of rhetorical niceties stripped away.

[01:25:27] You are of course free to think of it whatever you wish but please don't just dismiss it as some finger wagging Dr. Laura Sermon. None of this stuff is really about morality or religion or dogma or big fancy questions of life after death.

[01:25:40] The capital T truth is about life before death.

[01:25:43] Yeah again he connects that to simple awareness awareness of what is so real and essential so hidden in plain sight all around us all the time that we have to keep reminding ourselves over and over this is water this is water again.

[01:25:56] Yeah that's where I see the Buddhist influence is that this stuff is already here if we can get past the division of self you know yeah so it's a very mystical like I actually kind of I was thinking.

[01:26:09] This you can weigh in on this with a lot more authority than me there is a part of Christianity that is very much about belief and.

[01:26:19] Wow somebody started trying to FaceTime me I could think why wouldn't he turn his ringer off no my ringer is off it's just didn't it's my computer ring.

[01:26:38] Oh really yeah but I didn't think that of that I just was like why wouldn't he fucking turn his ringer off when I'm trying to make a big point which I already forgot.

[01:26:49] No it's gonna be good yeah right so I was going to say that this is something like I associate not with some aspects of Christianity as you've talked about where is very focused on belief and you have to believe this and if you believe it you're good if you don't believe it you're bad no matter what else.

[01:27:06] But then there's a more mystical side of Christianity and maybe Catholicism that is really about just absorbing the oneness of like Jesus's love or whatever the fuck you guys.

[01:27:22] Gives all of you boners that seems more in line with what I think he's saying which is this kind of recognition that isn't just intellectual belief I believe this it is I you know like I feel it like I'm experiencing it and I have to keep reminding myself to experience it I don't know like you tell me.

[01:27:46] Yeah I think all mystical sects from Islam Judaism and Christianity tend to share some belief about the one in the oneness and I know that there were at least some Gnostic views that there was a spark of divinity in all humans that was essentially part of the like the divine like you are part of the whole.

[01:28:13] And yeah it's much more like the traditional Christianity you're absolutely right as much more like except Christ and and you're done right yeah presumably become a better person and all that but that's not the point the point is just do this one.

[01:28:25] And the selling point of it is that it's do this one easy thing it's like it's right it was like they were writing a headline for Buzzfeed when they came up with religion.

[01:28:36] It's Christian like you won't believe number three you know confess your sin except the Lord and Savior.

[01:28:45] How easy it is to avoid eternal damnation yeah yeah or as any of the mystical strands are just a much I think deeper and richer view of I mean there were some kooky ones obviously but yeah it's it's one of the things that I think though too is.

[01:29:06] And you've had more experience with this like it's hard it's hard to do so hard and and sometimes the ability to turn off and leave your defaults where they are is relaxing and I think totally and I think this you know people who are.

[01:29:25] Quick to blame or quick to anger like people who don't seem to see that other people might have you know the whole other set of hopes wishes police desires and situations in the.

[01:29:39] They do it because easy to make a judgment about another person and leave it at that and they're good I mean they're bad I'm good and that's a very comforting thought.

[01:29:50] It's comforting in the way that like scrolling social media is comforting in the way that it sort of distracts you from like more complex kind of nuanced thinking but it's also like it doesn't feel good you know in the same way that like scrolling like it doesn't feel like you don't.

[01:30:07] I don't think it's comforting at a superficial level I think in a way that not doing that is comforting at a deeper level or can be relaxing at a deeper level right.

[01:30:18] Right the relaxing point is really interesting and I think like this is something I've noticed viscerally is when you start thinking like this your body automatically relaxes and actually sometimes it's the reverse is if you can get your body to relax then that perspective comes more naturally to you but if you don't.

[01:30:38] Like I think he makes it sound like this really is all cognitive and I wonder to what extent a big part of this is also bodily and like I've noticed that if I try to do some of the techniques like in a grocery store which you know like is a constant challenge often just trying to like relax my shoulders

[01:30:56] and like you know like like zoom out in a certain way which is purely physical it has nothing to do with like I like I guess I have to make the decision to try to do that but the thing that is actually helping is the physical transformation more than the mental one but even then you just get glimpses of it and then you're back in your own head probably like judging and assessing how well you just did what you were like did I do a good job.

[01:31:23] Like losing like destroying my ego briefly. Was that good Buddha was that good.

[01:31:30] But like it is kind of amazing like and it's just like this magical like serenity that can like that you can have and then it's gone but you can it's like it's real what he's talking about I think.

[01:31:43] Yeah I think it is a virtue I think he is looking at a world in which people don't do this enough and and wanting people to do it but he just knows that that's not the way to say it or maybe that's not the framework that he's working through but it's it's hard to not get a like a strong normative message here.

[01:32:02] I agree and I think you summarize the two possibilities really well it's like number one that's not going to go over well if he like makes this sound like the other is that he really does ultimately see this in more existential terms and less in terms of practice and habit in the way that I think is is a little like more consistent with Buddhist practice teachings in that

[01:32:32] you know you believe what you want but do these things and like you'll it'll start to appear even though this is water thing you could interpret over and over again is this something like a ritualized thing where you're just trying to notice awareness is always around you all the time without you doing anything.

[01:32:49] Yeah. If you can just get yourself to do it is it just like a boy sorry is it a ritualized form of meditation almost or is it something that each time you kind of renew your ability to choose. Yeah, I don't know.

[01:33:04] I don't know either and you know like on one reading it might just be exercise this ability more that of not seeing yourself as the center of the universe do that more often and you'll see what happens.

[01:33:19] The problem is that we get thrust back into our own perspective routinely every single day like there are things that just it matters that it is you and it's your thing and you have to take care of it.

[01:33:31] There are times when you have to be intensely focused on your own shit. And so so I think that the reading of just pop out of it just like every once in a while you have to relax your shoulders, you know, or your jaw. Yeah, right.

[01:33:47] But what is absent here is like join this community group. Yeah. He's definitely wants to make this not tied to a specific religion but it's coming from a very individualist perspective. You're right. You're right.

[01:34:02] That thought half crossed my mind at some point when I was reading it, which was that there was a strikingly little discussion of actually engaging with other people was more of a put up with them in the right way.

[01:34:18] That's what's so sad about this too is I think like he really believes this but I really think his default settings because he's so smart and kind of brilliant and also like has had deep cryptography. He's been struggling with depression.

[01:34:32] He was inside his own head more than most and also in more destructive ways and that probably limited even how he could conceptualize this idea. You know, like I think he tried to like convert to Roman Catholicism a few times. Like he tried.

[01:34:48] He was hungry for some of this but I don't think just the way he was built and I feel this to a large degree, but it's not built for some sort of communal spiritual enterprise. Right. Sometimes I think that you might join a cult eventually.

[01:35:08] I think like deeper down than my like desire to like believe what like a lot of cults believe is like I have to retain my own. You're right.

[01:35:20] Yeah, well, and I mean, I think this is one of the reasons that this is for me a very powerful speech because he's not asking a lot.

[01:35:30] I would have been tempted to insert a whole bunch of things about the power of doing good in your community and it would have been a much worse.

[01:35:41] Much worse for many reasons, but I wouldn't be able to control my moralizing and tossing in everything like what the kitchen sink. And so it's elegant in that sense. But it also is asking a lot. Right. It's even says at the end, right?

[01:36:01] It's unimaginably hard to do this to stay conscious and alive in the adult world. Yeah, it's it's very good. This is water. This is water.

[01:36:12] It's funny like that sort of I know I keep talking about this and nobody gives a shit, but like the kind of practice and it actually comes from like a lot of the people that Sam Harris has on his app that I've been really influenced by lately and is really all about not cultivating awareness or mindfulness

[01:36:29] or like but just noticing the awareness that's already here. That's already there always has been and that doesn't require effort to to notice it.

[01:36:41] What requires effort is to allow yourself to relax your mind in a way that it just becomes obvious and that like this is water idea is is as good a parable of trying to express that as anybody like it's already here. You're a fish.

[01:36:59] You don't get that you're swimming in water because you always have. It's very generation X religion. It's like a good example of it, not in a bad way. It's just like right because it's still individualist to some degree. Yeah. The goal is to shatter at the individual ego.

[01:37:15] I feel some kinship with this perspective just by just by being raised in this country at this time. The struggle is the kinship. Like yeah. I mean, but yeah, millennials have different issues. Very different. They can't drive. They can't drive stick for sure.

[01:37:33] Also there are people offending them all the time. I love the last sentence. I wish you way more than luck. That's great. Yeah. So let's dear listeners, I wish you way more than luck. We miss you. We miss you. We miss you. We miss you. We miss you.

[01:37:52] We wish you way more than luck. Join us next time on Very Bad Wizard.