[00:00:00] Very Bad Wizards is a podcast with a philosopher, my dad and psychologist Dave Pizarro having an informal discussion about issues in science and ethics. Please note that the discussion contains bad words that I'm not allowed to say and knowing my dad some very inappropriate jokes.

[00:00:17] Existentialism is often discussed as if it's a philosophy of despair, but I think the truth is just the opposite. Sartre once interviewed said he never really felt a day of despair in his life.

[00:00:30] But one thing that comes out from reading these guys is a real kind of exuberance. It's like your life is yours to create.

[00:01:17] Welcome to Very Bad Wizards, I'm Tamler Sommers from the University of Houston. Dave Helen Pluckrose has started an organization called Counterweight, a support group for people who feel like they're being coerced by their employers to espouse woke beliefs. Have you joined yet? No.

[00:01:45] I thought it was going to be something about like... We can't put that in. I don't know. Oh my God. I have to already edit out. I mean, I'm saying like for the pressure for being too woke, I would join if it started up. I feel the pressure.

[00:02:11] I feel like now we have this reputation as being these woke Marxists now, but like, Wokeness annoys me. Yeah, I don't think being Marxist has anything to do with being woke. No, well, it's like a ruling class ideology, Wokeness. It's all the same CRT, Jewishness. Marxist, woke.

[00:02:36] Frankfort School something. Right, Frankfort School something. Nobody knows exactly like I mean like Mark Hughes. Yeah, it's just all one big category of people who want to take down Confederate statues. I mean we joke, but I could see us devoting like a 10 episode series to Adorno, to

[00:02:59] Theodora and his work. No, but this is yeah like I saw this Atlantic article. It's not a just so Helen Pluck rose for those who don't know is one of the hoaxers for

[00:03:15] not the initial hoax that we had James Lindsay on for, but for the one that was more they didn't just like pay to get into pay money for them to publish. This was the one that actually got accepted somewhere.

[00:03:33] This was the one where they blanketed, they tried to like 15 places in the sound of a man. Only some of them were paid to publish. And so then they got criticized for that and people are getting criticized for you know anti-Orthodox

[00:03:47] views and so you know it's again coddling for me but not for you. Exactly, exactly. So it's just so obvious to anybody else. It's like you know they do mental gymnastics to resist the claim that it's coddling for them because no in this case it actually matters.

[00:04:12] In this case it's actually a problem which goes to show you was never about coddling, it was about what people were wanting to like change or talk about or whatever. It's not a it's just about the content of like. It's just about like people disagree with me.

[00:04:30] That's just life you know. I think like we've dealt with that like we never you know especially early on we didn't agree with each other but we didn't join support groups or at least I did. Well I mean I did but yeah.

[00:04:43] I'm more of a pain in the ass to deal with. Yeah it's just like a support group about you specifically. Have you heard of my wife and daughter like my brother and like my stepmother like drop in every so often.

[00:05:00] Have you heard I'm very very sad to have learned for the first time of this rapper named Tom McDonald. Have you heard of this guy? He's this like white like Canadian rapper with like tattoos on his face who is like the James Lindsay of rap.

[00:05:19] His rap songs are about like whining about like how unfairly treated because he's a white man. They're just terrible. They're terrible songs like but it's all just whining about how hard it is to be a white man nowadays. Yeah it's terrible.

[00:05:36] Like it's just so cringe just look like a Tom McDonald and just get ready for cringe. It's so bad. Yeah all right there's so many examples of you know and like you know what like

[00:05:46] like you have to be a little fucked up to act that way and feel that way like and you see where this is taken James Lindsay right like at this point can you still be mad at him

[00:05:56] or like you know like these people like I think like it drives people crazy sometimes. It's I don't think it's like it's fun. I mean some people are grifters some people are just doing it for the money like Jesse Single but friend of the show.

[00:06:12] But some people like I think really just like it drives them out of their mind you know and at that point well they're still free. They are still free. In what way do you mean Tamler could it be in the way that Jean-Paul Sartre meant?

[00:06:30] That was not one of my like most seamless transitions I don't think like I wouldn't put that on my Mount Rushmore of Segway. But yes we are talking about Jean-Paul Sartre famous kind of introduction to his his version of existentialism.

[00:06:51] Existential is a humanism that's what we're talking about in the second segment. All right well before we talk about the existentialists we're talking we have an opening segment on how much discretionary time we have and its relationship to our happiness.

[00:07:12] So can I ask why you call it discretionary instead of free time? Because that's what the article I have the article I think I think discretionary is since it's a bigger word it sounds more science. Yeah I think that's right.

[00:07:30] I mean in the in the Vice article that I've read it just is too much free time. Well that's for the plebs. Yeah that's for us dumbasses as hillbillies.

[00:07:39] Right so there's two so there's the Vice article called Too Much Free Time Isn't Actually Bad For You and there they discuss among other things a recent paper by Marissa Sharif Casey Moggelnur sorry if I mispronounce that and Hal Hirschfield who Hal is a friend of mine.

[00:07:55] Hal I call him Hal Hirschfield. Anti-semitically. Yeah exactly. With this dain in my voice. I've called having too little or too much time is linked to lower subjective well-being.

[00:08:09] So yeah we can launch like I we can launch into the actual science of it or we can start with the Vice article but I think I can summarize just the article that came out recently in Journal of Personality and Social Psychology.

[00:08:21] They essentially looked at two big data sets like thousands of people these are data sets that that are just out there about like the workforce and demographics and all that stuff.

[00:08:34] And they find in both data sets that there is this curvilinear relationship between subjective well-being through the standard measures of like how happy are you with your life

[00:08:43] and how much free time people have such that people who have very little free time are less happy but also people who have too much free time and here too much is just obviously like defined by the data.

[00:08:57] But it's like the sweet spot the little Goldilocks effect that they find is between two and a half and five hours per day. Yeah.

[00:09:08] Now that there's caveats for that which we can talk about because that's what the Vice article focuses on because actually it seems as if people who picked up on this finding just started talking about it fairly simplistically even even using it as a way to sort of

[00:09:24] justify the value in working your ass off. Right. Yeah. You could see where that was going like I'm sure they didn't have a hard time finding funding from this. Memo from HR saying recent studies have shown that not working is actually linked to lower costs.

[00:09:44] Having an even one day off a week is really bad for you and your happiness.

[00:09:50] You know so I'll just say now that the paper is very clear in in the thing that the sort of caveats them the moderators of this effect what they find is that there are two two things that sort of eliminate or or mitigate this effect.

[00:10:06] One if your free time or discretionary time is productive then it is far less of a bad thing productive in what sense. Yeah it's good question.

[00:10:19] So they had people sort of self defined productive here's here's what they what they said when asking people about their hours they say by productive we mean that you consider this use of discretionary time not to be quote unquote wasted.

[00:10:32] This use of time might feel useful accomplished fulfilling helpful purposeful and or worthwhile so it's non work time for sure. It's weird that like just fulfilling it sounds like not a waste of time is a great definition why call that productive though.

[00:10:47] Yeah I don't know it's like a bit they're at business schools these these often OK. Never mind. Right. The so so the the curvil in your effect is goes down such that you're not as penalized in your subjective well being for more discretionary time but it goes away.

[00:11:06] They find like that it goes away if the if the discretionary time is spent on social activities. So if if you're doing social versus versus solo activities it's just a it's actually a positive linear effect the more free hours you have the happier you are.

[00:11:23] So even if you then say that time was wasted or not worthwhile I guess so. Yeah so long as it's you're doing it with other people so you're involved in social activities. So it's interesting.

[00:11:36] This is one of those studies that raises a good question and that I can relate to even their conclusions like and especially since you know we have the kind of job where sometimes we're really fucking busy. Yeah.

[00:11:53] And sometimes like if we have a leave or a sabbatical we don't call them sabbaticals in Texas we don't call them leave. Really. Yeah you're not allowed to have sabbaticals in public universities in Texas. I thought it was anti Semitic. No Shabbat for you. Right.

[00:12:11] That's college football day. You know I think there is something like how you know when you have a leave which you know I've had a couple and there and now you have the whole data to face. Like and you can do work but you also cannot.

[00:12:28] You don't have anything made necessarily do even like two weeks from now.

[00:12:33] So you can sort and that's a kind of a daunting thing and that's and that and that feels too unstructured sometimes whereas like a kind of sweet spot of teaching and but not but maybe one or two classes at most and then coming home and having a drink and now you're feeling like I earned this drink.

[00:12:52] You know. Yeah. I talked to you guys. Right. Right. I said some words in front of students like pass me the pass me the 40 ounce. Right. I like so I get that and it strikes me as plausible at the same time I also have this.

[00:13:09] I don't know if you agree with this. I have this feeling or conviction that like this is not a question that you can ask in isolation like this. You know.

[00:13:19] And I think this is part of what the Vice article is pointing out but you can't just because the reasons why you might have free time are so different and also like if you live a life where you have seven hours free hours a day and you know that that's your life you will figure out a way to deal with that.

[00:13:39] You know like you will figure out a way to like use that free time in a way that's more fulfilling to you just randomly asking people like how much free time they have and how much and even just conceptualizing the question that way like what is the ideal number of free hours to have per day.

[00:13:56] Just strikes me as really misguided and like not the right way to approach a question like this. Even though like you know what their results allegedly show can resonate with me like I still wouldn't take those results or my intuitions about this.

[00:14:10] Like it's too much a part of just the larger structure of your life to usefully think of in those terms. So I also think that too and they're totally consistent. It's it's well I agree. I agree with the the meshing with intuition.

[00:14:27] I think if you have if you have a job that does like maybe our kinds of jobs are the ideal sort of jobs to to notice this like when when we are very busy and when we're not it does seem it's pretty clear to me when I have too much time on my hands and like I'm being lazy like I don't have anything going on after after a good couple of weeks.

[00:14:50] I'm like pulling my hair out like what's left of it. I'm not motivated to start any projects. I'm not motivated. You know I've been tired from working.

[00:15:00] I don't but I don't have anything to do and like I can feel myself lapsing into a funk like wake up late stay up late doing nothing. Right.

[00:15:11] So that second part you know if you read the paper I think they're they're fairly sober about what they can and can't show and and they have one of the better sections on the limitations of what they can show.

[00:15:24] They do try to work with these big big representative samples. The first one is only working people and they say well that you know we also want to see in nonworking people so they got a hold of another big day set with nonworking people.

[00:15:37] And they they take all of whatever you know demographics and what kind of work in their income and and they try their best to statistically control for it.

[00:15:47] But they do say in their conclusion that this has to be taken with a grain of salt where so many things that might actually like play into this and they point out explicitly that this is a small effect. So like they're not seeing like huge effects.

[00:16:05] It's not like you're going from depression to happiness. And so they they say let me see let me try to find the right the current the current an initial exploration into the relationship between time affluence and subjective well being as an initial exploration.

[00:16:24] Our hope is that this works for further investigation into more precise research questions.

[00:16:27] For instance the current findings examine how the amount of discretionary time a person has on a typical day relates to well being but it does not inform the experience of a typical days like when on vacation on a holiday.

[00:16:37] Furthermore although we have provided initial insight into possible mechanisms stress for too little time and lack of productivity for too much time are identified effect is likely multiply determined. Boredom may also contribute to reduce well being from having an overabundance of discretionary time.

[00:16:51] They grant that there's a whole bunch of factors that are probably at play and the more granular you get the more you might learn about it.

[00:16:59] So I guess that's the part that last thing you said is the part that I think I am resisting like I actually from just reading the Vice article and from scamming at best the actual study.

[00:17:13] Think that if you're starting with that question they did about it's good a job as you can to investigate the question.

[00:17:21] It's like this isn't one of those studies where it's like the you know some of the ones we've done recently where it's just like so ridiculous and their limitations are a joke and they don't like it's no everything about this seems like well done and they're very honest about their limitations.

[00:17:40] I just think like but wait a minute should we be even approaching the question this way because if you were to use this information in some way to affect your life.

[00:17:51] I don't think you could just say well it's OK that I'm only have two free hours a day because that's in the sweet spot according to this thing like what information is that giving individuals about like how to live their life and or you know how to make their life better

[00:18:09] or worse and it's that where I'm wondering whether this like there it can it can do anything.

[00:18:17] Right well I'm expressing this well but like I guess the idea is you know let's say I'm not within that sweet spot one way or another would that give me any reason to try to get to the sweet spot.

[00:18:31] Well I mean so so I guess the finding that there is a sweet spot combined with the finding that that sweet spot goes away if you engage in social activities.

[00:18:45] I think it gives me sort of like some sort of guide there's when I have free time I often don't go out of my way to engage in social activities and so it might be a guide to say well you know if I'm to believe this maybe like filling filling

[00:19:00] out my days with social activities might be helpful. Right but right yeah. Yeah that's right if you you sometimes are feeling like you have too much free time on your hands. You know I should go out.

[00:19:14] No I take that point for sure like that's actually the part of one part of the study that I think is I don't know if that would yeah my worry affects that part.

[00:19:24] I just think we need to think about it more holistically when it comes to something like free time because just the fact that we're that we feel bad about ourselves if we don't do something productive is just a part of like how we're wired to just always feel like something has to be

[00:19:41] accomplished. Yeah I also think that like if you it's like a super American kind of question to ask where like in in some countries and some cultures they would ask like what's the bet you know how much work makes you happy.

[00:19:59] Right not how much free time makes you happy because obviously because like right you just like in other countries that are more collectivist you're you're spending time with family all the time.

[00:20:11] And so like having to work is is like the trade off that you have to make for going right going back to family which and then relates to your study right it's like because their free time is spent interconnected

[00:20:28] and socially engaged like they think it's not going to be too much.

[00:20:34] Yeah it's it's there's there's a there's like a subtle critique here that I can't put like I can't put my finger on quite well which is like I have the way in which the study was conducted is as good from what I can tell is any study.

[00:20:54] It's that it's the values that are shining through in the way that things are framed and asked that is that sort of undiscussed like right the assumption that this is. That's what I was trying to get at yeah that's what I was trying to get at yeah.

[00:21:11] Yeah and it's not like it's not an empirical critique like as you're saying it's it's more of like a it's a revealing of something that it's build as objective but it's actually. It's a value laden.

[00:21:25] Right in how they kind of divide things up yeah that's exactly right I think that's yeah. Yeah the part about the productive versus unproductive though strikes me as is sort of the annoying advice to get a hobby. Oh you just need a hobby.

[00:21:46] No sometimes I just want to sit and play video games all day and even when I know it'll make me unhappy if I do that for a week. That's that's all I want.

[00:21:55] Yeah like I don't know like I don't know if I feel like I do have that problem where it's not that I need to get a hobby but that there is this distinction between.

[00:22:06] Time I feel that was worth spending and time that I just kind of automatically did you know often online just scanning political or sports articles that really I didn't give a shit about like Ben Simmons in the 76ers.

[00:22:23] Why do I need to know about like where that drama is but I somehow like do know about.

[00:22:28] Okay so I mean even that part I think is like yes like it's it's way better when I feel like it was worth spending the trick is to figure out how to get yourself to do the free time that's worth spending.

[00:22:40] Right which we're not good at exactly exactly so when you ask what like what advice could this like how could this give any guidance like I'm actually skeptical maybe for a different reason because I think that.

[00:22:54] It's not it's not that I don't know that I like what's gonna make me miserable or happy.

[00:23:02] It's that I often do know and I'm just like I have a Craig weakness of the will and I don't I just don't like I'm too tired so I just actually scroll through.

[00:23:12] Tick tock and then I'm just like fuck that was such a waste like that wasn't couple hours that I just wasted I could have been doing something right so.

[00:23:20] And that seems to me to be the crux of the problem right there and so any talk of whether you have too much of that or too little of that is a distraction from the real issue which is how do you make yourself feel good about the free time that you have.

[00:23:37] Yeah.

[00:23:38] And I like I'm with you with that stuff it's like I know that this isn't going to be fun at this and I know while but at the same when I'm doing it it's like no that's fine I just get to like I just need to chill out and.

[00:23:51] Yeah yeah yeah yeah but it's not chilling out it's not really true do you ever have like a free free afternoon and you like take some Adderall and you end up just reading Reddit and you're just like fuck exactly you just wasted all that Adderall.

[00:24:05] And like all you ended up doing was going down some rabbit hole that you couldn't eat like I couldn't even tell you what it was like the next day.

[00:24:12] Yeah yeah it's completely like it used to be that I would at least pick up a book you know like a book of as a kid I loved reading books of like random facts or just even like encyclopedias and I would just like you know like a crew knowledge that way at least now it's like as you say I don't even know what I got out of this.

[00:24:31] I can't like I would have to go to my search history to even like remember what it was that I did this is why I love movies partly because I feel like if I watch a movie like I'm happy like time will spend you know and yeah obviously reading is like that and I've tried to keep up that habit with some success but not full success.

[00:24:52] But it's always like if you've been reading you're not like disappointed with yourself. Yeah but I yeah and you're right that there's room for just look I really actually do just want to just scroll through every right.

[00:25:04] I read a headline about the Patriots or whatever but and if it didn't if it doesn't go that well who gives it shit that's kind of what I want to do.

[00:25:12] Yeah I do resist sometimes the feeling that I need that all of my time needs to be somehow like positive in utility. Sometimes I'm like it's just shaking my fist at the overlords that think that I need to worry about my well being or something like that.

[00:25:30] And especially when you think of it in like teleological terms like you have to improve yourself. You know like never mind being productive for the workplace or something like that. But like like the people who meditate so that they can be like they can close deals faster.

[00:25:47] Like 1980s Zen businessmen. Right exactly like that's like I'm not even like obviously that's kind of fucked up in its own way but I'm just saying even the people who think like their free time has to be used for Yeah. Personal growth in some way.

[00:26:05] I react against you. Yeah me too. Yeah no it's funny because there are clearly things that are of no real value that I deeply enjoy spending my free time.

[00:26:16] So if I watch like some documentary about hip hop like time well spent like it will matter nothing to nobody like it will never have a positive influence.

[00:26:24] Like and I used to feel that way about making beats you know I found an excuse to like to have some utility out of beats.

[00:26:32] But you know like there's something about creative endeavors that that I will never even share that I'm OK with wasting quote unquote wasting my time. I just hate the thought that everything has to be for something.

[00:26:46] But like I think that's what you know the good thing about their definition of it in retrospect. Are you do you feel that was time well spent however you define right.

[00:26:56] And like you would never say for you know whatever the documentary you wouldn't say like I think like I wish I hadn't done that I wish I

[00:27:04] That's what you wanted to do whereas there are other times where it's like yes I definitely wish I had done something else with the fuck was wrong with me. That's you know do you do you ever watch Tick Tock. Do you ever do you have a Tick Tock.

[00:27:17] No I have not. And I think like out of personal just some kind of way of preventing myself from it is just integration.

[00:27:25] It is to me the quintessential sort of like you feel like you're doing something when you're doing it and then when you're done you realize you've done nothing even jerking off has more positive utility than productive. Like a cough. Something came out. Exactly. Something was produced.

[00:27:50] Tick Tock is it is like the evilest of algorithms just feeding you stuff that just has zero.

[00:27:59] It's an hour will go by it's even when you play a video game that you know like even when we're addicted to those like you know video games can't crush or whatever.

[00:28:07] Like even that like it's fake productivity but like there's something you're like at a higher level after you're done playing. You know do you remember that really cruel thing that Paul did to us get us hooked on that skiing. I was me.

[00:28:23] I got I think I got both of you hooked on it and in fact I've been hooked on it again. I got it just there's a new version of it that came out recently which is yeah. Oh God.

[00:28:36] You know what I actually I don't know what like I don't know maybe it's the meditating I don't know like I have no longer like those things used to destroy me.

[00:28:45] They used to just take me out like it was like tearing an ACL or something like that where if I if if that happened to me I would be just out for a while this happened with like a game that I can even relate to like I fucking played like hours and hours of minion rush.

[00:29:04] Like what's like that's just like a kid's game. What is wrong with me. I can't relate to that person right now if you gave it to me I might play it for like 10 minutes and be like whatever and then put it like so I don't know.

[00:29:17] I feel like like maybe maybe the positive spin on this is that you would otherwise just be gambling a lot on college football games.

[00:29:27] But it's funny with those kinds of things like gambling is a great example like I can be moderate and it's not a problem but those things I couldn't be moderate about. That's funny. And then all of a sudden I could or just wasn't attracted to it at all.

[00:29:45] It's like an alcoholic just suddenly being like you know what I don't need to drink. Yeah. I mean I'll have a couple of glass of wine but I don't need like it's not going to like send me over the edge. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:57] I go through phases to where it's something will be the most fun thing in the world and then just one day it'll stop. It'll happen with like like I'll be super into watching YouTube videos and then just it'll stop.

[00:30:10] I'll be like you know super getting to something and then it'll just stop. And I feel like I have no control over it which means I really need to work on my existential for existential. Yeah. I hope this doesn't happen with one of us in the podcast.

[00:30:24] It's happened. The problem is now that we have sponsors. Right. We have to do it. Daddy needs some new shoes. All right. And we'll be right back to talk about Sartre. Sartre.

[00:30:53] You know you may not be feeling down and out and depressed or like you're at a total loss but if your stress is high your temper is shorter than usual or even if you're starting to feel strain in any of your relationships you could probably use the chance to unload.

[00:31:09] So unload the stress and get it out. Talk to someone who's completely unbiased about your life. Someone who isn't going to judge you or take sides on anything when there are things you can't tell anyone or feel like you can't unload family and friends.

[00:31:22] You need to unload it and that's what therapy can be. Better help is customized online therapy that offers video phone and even live chat sessions with your therapist so you don't have to see anyone on camera if you don't want to.

[00:31:36] It's much more affordable than in person therapy and you can start communicating with your therapist in under 48 hours. Unload the stressors and get some unbiased feedback. You'd be pretty surprised at what you might gain from it. Just see if it's for you.

[00:31:50] This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp and very bad wizards listeners like you get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com. That's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P.com. Our thanks once again to BetterHelp for sponsoring this episode of Very Bad Wizards. Thank you for watching. Welcome back to Very Bad Wizards.

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[00:36:37] which are being posted once a month. I just posted the third lecture in the series of what? 12 or 13 lectures. And finally our $10 an app tier, our buddies you get to have everything but also an Ask Us Anything video. We're about to record that second Ask Us Anything video

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[00:37:16] We don't want to get out of the world. So thank you to everybody for all of your support, tangible and otherwise really appreciate it. Yes, thank you. All right, so let's talk about Sartre and how like let's just first talk about how we're going to say it.

[00:37:33] Some people just go Sartre and then other people will go Sartre. That's probably what I'll do. Yeah, I should get my ass kicked. I know usually like if you force to think about it in an English whatever setting,

[00:37:47] I think I say Sartre but like that doesn't sound that. Yeah, I don't know. Is that good or is that the worst of both worlds? I don't know. Crap. Would you like some crap? You just say crepe.

[00:38:03] You know what's an interesting analogy is now I've learned to say I'll have three like croissants. Like that's what you can do and that's not how they pronounce it. But it's like a good it's like what we've all decided we're doing like,

[00:38:17] you know, we're honoring that it's not an English word but we're also not going croissant. Yeah. Yeah, there's a hilarious old SNL skit with Benjamin. What's his name? The guy that was like on LA law, not Benjamin. Jimmy Smith. Jimmy Smith. How did I know?

[00:38:45] Yeah, based on Benjamin. I guess it's because the only person I can really name from there. Yeah, where he like comes into a meeting. He's like a new guy in a meeting and everybody around him like pronounces like Burrito. Bob Costas is on that one too. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:06] We're playing the Denver Broncos. Broncos. Sana Franziskos. Now people just do that like but it's not a joke. I know. But that always turns terrorists in Managua. Yeah, I was talking to my mother who was a French teacher for most of her career and she said,

[00:39:33] well you have to say it's out. So I was like, okay, mom, I will but I'm not gonna. I'm just gonna say Sartre. But I don't think you do the like raw part of that as much. I don't think the French do, they're like Sartre.

[00:39:48] And there is a little bit of that. Sartre. Do we have any French listeners? I'm sure that we do. They're Haitian though. We're being invaded. And I'm like they're being deported right now by your Democrats.

[00:40:07] But yeah, so what's your history with existentialism more broadly and obviously people wanted us to talk about existentialism. Like all students want philosophers to teach classes on existentialism and we just don't do it out of what? I don't know. It's not like that's not interesting stuff.

[00:40:32] I think you put your finger on it a little bit which is it's so many different things. Like a lot of existentialism comes through books like novels and it's not as if it's a label.

[00:40:46] It's not like something that's been clearly defined and this is what Sartre says throughout the whole thing. It means a lot to a lot of people. So it's not obvious what we would talk about.

[00:40:57] And in some cases we have talked about it through whatever if you want to say Dostoyevsky represents it. Right, right, right. Even setting that aside like I think it's as well defined as some philosophical views.

[00:41:07] I think there is also its association with like I don't know being like a 20 year old dude that is angsty. It's too angsty.

[00:41:19] I think like and this is something that Sartre talks about in this that it has this association with a certain kind of performative despair at the void at the absurd.

[00:41:31] Like a little like the kind of you can't handle the truth kind of attitude that I think comes people off.

[00:41:38] But it also it's just a weird thing that philosophers don't like analytic philosophy in the Western tradition that I'm a part of that we don't talk about it because he's talking about all the same stuff that we do talk about.

[00:41:49] This is this is philosophy like this is as philosophy as as anything and I'm just surprised that we don't kind of incorporate it into our you know like into our just general way of introducing philosophy to students, especially given that that's all they want us to do really is talk about.

[00:42:09] Right, right, right. Yeah, no it's like it got a bad rap from the analytics the analytic philosophers and henceforth never never to be seen in an Anglo intro philosophy. That's the power we have. You rub us the wrong way. We cancel them.

[00:42:28] I'm sure they had their own support group.

[00:42:33] I don't know like I was a huge like I've read everything Camus has written Camus has written but I haven't read much Sartre other than like the fictional stuff like I read nausea and I read no exit obviously because I took French in high school.

[00:42:53] In terms of his actual work is it's almost like I felt like I had to choose between Sartre and Camus and Camus a lot and they have a very famous kind of falling out that played out publicly in the way that French intellectuals fighting typically does like slapping each other with a white glove.

[00:43:12] No see but Camus wasn't like that but I think Sartre was. Well, it's the French extension lists. I mean, right. It's very French. The you know for better and for worse.

[00:43:26] And I love France and I love the French but you know they can be annoying and then sufferable sometimes and that's kind of what I associated with Sartre as like like as a person is you know like this is really interesting stuff and I wish like my tradition dealt with like interesting questions like he does but man like like this guy he needs to get his ass kicked.

[00:43:49] Yeah, it's a little arrogant right like a little like I don't know. I don't know what it is that's coming across as arrogant but but yeah. All right, let's let's talk about it.

[00:43:59] I think like just a couple things to say about the the essay in general he published it.

[00:44:04] It is like one of the most common pieces that people turn to as an introduction to existentialism that kind of lays it out a lot more explicitly than you would get from Nietzsche or Kierkegaard, you know never mind like a novel like The Stranger or nausea.

[00:44:22] Like this is actually a piece of philosophy and then and it's a piece of like I was saying and essentially analytic philosophy to some extent, you know, it doesn't seem like it's coming from a different perspective.

[00:44:34] It's coming from this completely new tradition that's just indecipherable like I you can totally understand what he's saying and I'm a little surprised that he's not engaged with more.

[00:44:46] Actually on that note, I just realized that I am now I'm almost certain I did read it because I see in in my little version of it.

[00:44:55] It was taken from this book called existentialism from Dosiecki to Sarcha and by Walter Kaufman and I definitely read that book like I think that was like one of my first forays into it.

[00:45:07] All right, so I'm not going to summarize he sets this up as it's you know responding to people's criticisms of existentialism and some of that stuff is is fun some of it it just seems like people wouldn't criticize you for that.

[00:45:25] I think that they're too gloomy to pessimistic but I think it's a useful frame for him just defining what he thinks are the central tenants of existentialism speaking very broadly. The first just takes as a starting point that we let that experience is subjective.

[00:45:45] So I think he starts from this kind of Descartes place where he says all we know is we're we're presented in this world. We find ourselves in an environment and we find that we can think and that's all we know for sure.

[00:46:00] We have no discernible like essence essence or any kind of guy to tell us what to do or who to be or what to value and we have to choose for for us for ourselves. That's what it means to be human.

[00:46:13] That's the one thing that we all share and that's just the situation if you look and you examine it clearly you'll find that you're in that situation just like he is.

[00:46:24] Yeah, it's a it's the one of my favorite terms of the existentialist is thrown this like being thrown into the world. It's what Heidegger how Heidegger described it right.

[00:46:36] Right. That's exactly right. You're just kind of dropped in here and now you have to figure out what to do. And with that comes with this kind of the second big thing is this as he describes it we're condemned to be free.

[00:46:56] Yeah. So we have like we can't get out of this situation that that we find ourselves in this where we are dropped into the to the world and now we have to decide what to do and what to create.

[00:47:11] And there's no pre existing as far as we're concerned there's no pre existing values that we can turn to because how are we supposed to know which values are good and which out like we have to decide that for ourselves and we have to choose at at least many points during our time.

[00:47:26] And on our day we face this inexorable situation of choice that we can't run away from we can't get out of we can try to dilute ourselves that we don't face that but we actually do and that's our that's our predicament.

[00:47:42] It's an eight you know he calls it a kind of anguish because there's no escape. Yeah right that the it's it's interesting how much of this essay rides on this fundamental freedom like because I would think you could be an existentialist and argue.

[00:48:00] Look we were sort of condemned to to like live in a world that we didn't ask to be you know we didn't ask to be created there's no guidebook there's nothing to do but you could also just be like a determinist.

[00:48:14] Like I don't it's well he doesn't think you can be. No I know that's what's interesting about it like how central like ultimate ultimate choices to him.

[00:48:23] Yeah right like you he says you can say that people are determined and you can look back at your actions and say that they're now yeah like now I get why I did that because like I'm a drunk. Right I'm a hothead or whatever.

[00:48:38] Yeah but you know in the moment you can't deny that you have a choice like to do one thing or another and given that you know that like it's bad faith to say oh no that was determined or oh no everything I do is determined because your experience isn't like that.

[00:48:58] Right.

[00:48:59] And that's it seems as if it's like a different conversation than like you might have about libertarian free will versus determinism like I always took his point to be like what just the way that you said it like it's bad faith to say to like fall on the excuse that well this is just my genes or whatever because our experience

[00:49:20] or subjective experience fundamentally is one of like actually making choices and he's he's saying like if you don't embrace that then you're essentially not acting in good faith. Well yeah you know you're just not you're being dishonest.

[00:49:35] Yeah you're not you're not accurately reporting the experience that you have.

[00:49:39] Yeah right so so that's the second big tenant here is and he also defends a version of atheistic existentialism although he doesn't think you have to do that but if you combine atheism the kind of subjectivism that he says we all experience and the kind of freedom that he says we undeniably have based on our

[00:50:04] experience you know then the essay is just well what follows from those three cent central tenets right and is it something to be upset about is it something to be to despair over or is it is it optimistic is it pessimistic is it moral is it immoral like those are the things but

[00:50:23] you know as the central starting core tenant those you know that's what it is right and the phrase existence comes before essence I think captures a lot of what he's trying to say.

[00:50:34] And I get you know I think what attracted me I don't know like what attracted me initially to existentialism was this realization that like there are a lot of crutches like that we have that say humans are this and they're supposed to be that and you're

[00:50:50] like this is the guide to the right life and when you start realizing that like those they can't all be right you know at least this was my journey like raised being raised in religion gives you such comfort that you know exactly what you're supposed to do and how things are going to turn out.

[00:51:06] And once that gets pulled out from under you.

[00:51:11] You realize that like oh what there there is no universal guidebook for what it means to be human this this free the fact that freedom is so daunting was something that I think I really related to like this was like a really terrifying thought like what if humans don't have some deep

[00:51:35] purpose that was created for them. Right which I think he thinks you know he says we don't have it but he recognizes that some people say we do have you know there is some God that is but I think his sort of meta point is but you have no way of knowing

[00:51:54] even if you have that you're right about that. Right so you're still in that position of free choice and now just one of the choices you're making is do I believe this thing for which I certainly don't have conclusive evidence that there is some God and that this God is good and this God has handed down like true values

[00:52:15] right. You know so you're really just still in that situation even if you're a religious person and that's why you know this is where he appeals to Kierkegaard's discussion of Abraham which I think encapsulates that so well which is see like of course religion

[00:52:30] as presented to me was always just like no you have a certainty that God exists and what he tells you to do is right and the story of Abraham as Kierkegaard describes it is this because the choice that he is told to make by God is so daunting Abraham must realize that ultimately the choices

[00:52:51] as to whether or not to kill his son is his it falls on him whether you know whatever you believe about God like he could reject it or he could accept it like the choice was going to be his fundamentally and that that the notion of God doesn't protect you from the fact that humans have the ultimate freedom over all of their decisions.

[00:53:10] Because as he says which is kind of an interesting thing that I don't usually think of when I think of this case is like he has to think well wait a minute maybe I'm just hearing voices like like my like Uncle Harry here's voices.

[00:53:25] You know, Abraham had an uncle Harry, but he can't get out of that just general and certainly of how the fuck do we know like that that I'm not crazy or that I'm you know that that I'm on the right track in how I'm thinking about anything. Yeah.

[00:53:42] And so you have to commit yourself it's this like just inevitable inexorable your force to commit and in doing so that's how you create your essence but but there's the essence doesn't come before by virtue of you being human or by virtue of you being like one of God's children.

[00:54:03] It's only once you start making choices and you start deciding between values that you that that you become like a being you become something you become something.

[00:54:17] Yeah, he says thus the first effect of existentialism is that it puts every man in possession of himself as he is and places the entire responsibility for his existence squarely upon his own shoulders. Right. One step further than that which I want to talk. Yes, exactly.

[00:54:36] That's where I completely jump ship but like let's just just talk about what he's saying right there. On the one hand, it does seem like he is embracing this kind of radical and possibly incoherent notion of free will. And yet something about it seems OK to me.

[00:55:00] I guess just that he's capturing something that that resonates with my phenomenology. That's what I think objective experience. Yeah. And that's all what he's trying. That's what I was trying to say when I like when I was saying that it's at least the way I read it.

[00:55:16] What he's it's like a different level of analysis.

[00:55:18] Like I think you could be a metaphysical determinist but still find that there is something in what's Hatcher saying here that is that is deeply true, which is whether whether or not we're completely determined like we make choices and there's something about the attitude toward those choices that matters.

[00:55:40] And because even if you're a complete determinist, you're still like copping out woose if you just say that like well it doesn't matter what I did. I didn't have any control over it. Yeah.

[00:55:53] So I like I'm not sure that I agree with that that you can be a metaphysical determinist and still agree with Sark done this. Maybe not. Maybe not. I think he would think that you know I but I don't know.

[00:56:06] I don't know if he had a metaphysical stance about freedom in like the way that we talk about it in the debate.

[00:56:12] But but I mean like I think it just because I think he he wouldn't just accept that you can have some sort of objective view about the world that doesn't cohere with your fundamental experience.

[00:56:26] I'm not sure about this but like he would say what does it mean to be a metaphorical determinist but still believe with every ounce of your being that you have a choice that that you that you're making and that's kind of fundamental to who you are as a person.

[00:56:42] Right. Maybe he would be maybe he would just be a compatibilist. Maybe you would just say no not even a compatibilist.

[00:56:49] Well no I don't know like I think he thinks that it's so fundamental this this experience that you can't be a compatibilist because that means that determinism would be true and that's just not what you experience fundamentally. Yeah.

[00:57:05] Well I guess what I'm trying to say is I by determinism as a truth and I still find deep value in the way that Sartre's talking. And I don't know if that means that I am comfortable with with an incoherence. Right.

[00:57:23] But yeah so which I very well might be but I for some reason I think he's not talking you know I feel like he's talking about some other thing. I agree. It's like he's not participating in the debate. Yeah. We participated. Right. Right.

[00:57:38] Yeah you know the one Galen Strossen I think is somebody who really goes out of his way to you know accept that this is our subjective experience.

[00:57:47] And I think he refers to Sartre often when he's talking about these like the way Sartre describes it is the way we feel like that's an experience and that creates this like radical duality within like a kind of

[00:58:00] inconsistency that you alluded to which is your experience doesn't match some objective. I guess Nagle is kind of like this too. So your objective understanding of how the world works like those two things are in fundamental tension with each other.

[00:58:18] This episode of Very Bad Wizards is sponsored by chess.com. Dave this is like having them as a sponsor is very exciting for me because I have been a chess.com member since like pretty much as long as I can remember since like 2002 or 2003.

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[00:59:29] Right. Do you play chess. I know how to play and I played here and there when I was growing up but it's too intimidating for me like I don't want to lose.

[00:59:39] It's the one thing that I'm competitive at and if I lose I feel like that person was smarter than me and I don't ever want to feel that way. Yeah. No it is like that.

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[01:02:16] There is a conflict to me when I read Robert Solomon's take on emotions where where he really sort of embraced this view that everything is a fundamental choice and therefore all of your emotional responses.

[01:02:34] Like not even in some sort of a recitalian like virtue ethics kind of way but like every emotion is literally a judgment that you're making of your own free will like of your own free choice. That always struck me as like well that doesn't seem quite right like.

[01:02:52] Well that doesn't capture the experience like yeah what Sartre is talking about capturing exactly. Yeah so I think the fact that he is capturing something real at least some of the time like a lot of the time we do stuff and you know we're on autopilot.

[01:03:08] But there are times when we're making a we're faced with like a present decision that it really does feel like it is entirely up to you what to do.

[01:03:20] OK the next thing he says is something that just seems like so implausible to me that I kind of can't believe that it's in this.

[01:03:31] It's in the same article as all these other things where I might agree with I might disagree with but I still see there's some force to it. So I'll read you the passage. I think you already know what I'm going to say. Yeah.

[01:03:43] When we say that man chooses himself we do mean that every one of us must choose himself.

[01:03:48] But by that we also mean that in choosing for himself he chooses for all men for an effect of all the that the actions a man may take in order to create himself as he wills to be.

[01:04:00] There is not one which is not creative at the same time of the image of man such as he believes he ought to be to choose between this and that is to at the same time affirm the value of which that which is chosen for we are unable to ever choose the worst.

[01:04:17] What we choose is always the better and nothing can be better for us unless it is better for all.

[01:04:23] If moreover existence precedes essence and we will to and we will to exist and at the same time fashion our image that image is valid for all and for the entire epoch in which we find ourselves.

[01:04:35] Our responsibility is thus much greater than we had supposed for it concerns mankind as a whole. Like what? It's like he tripped in and fell asked first into the categorical imperative. Right. I know I was completely thrown off by this as well.

[01:04:53] And I was like, well you know part of the the radicalness of what he's been saying of like having ultimate freedom and like not values not existing before you make choices.

[01:05:10] Then all of a sudden he gets into this weird like it's like act act as if that will become law. Right, which he rejects like he doesn't he doesn't accept the Kantian imperative as for the reason that they can't. Right. Yeah.

[01:05:25] And he takes digs at that here but like but he so is what he's saying that nearly like what it means to choose an action means that it is expressing a value that

[01:05:40] and by expressing value it just must mean that you think this value is one that we all ought to have like. Yeah I mean the best spin on it that I can imagine although he doesn't make distinctions between like moral choices and personal choices. Right.

[01:05:55] But there's no way that he thinks that if I have Baskin Robbins chocolate chip ice cream that means I'm saying everybody should have chocolate chip ice cream.

[01:06:03] I think he thinks what distinguishes these kinds of choices that are personal taste from a kind of moral value as opposed to some idiosyncratic value is that you think that everybody in your situation should do that thing if you do it.

[01:06:20] And I just don't see like even the example that he uses right so he says if I decided to marry and to have children even though this decision proceed simply from my situation from my perspective.

[01:06:33] I am not only my passion or my desire I'm thereby committing not only myself but humanity as a whole to the practice of monogamy.

[01:06:41] I am thus responsible for myself and for all men and I am creating a certain image of man as I would have him to be in fashioning myself I fashion man.

[01:06:51] Yeah, like it's bizarre because this stuff about creating yourself just seems to follow from the premises that he is laying out. You know you have to create yourself through your choices and through your values. But what does that have to do with mankind?

[01:07:09] Why would you have to commit yourself to that? I don't understand it. It read to me like a sort of PR for existentialism where he didn't want people to think that they were amoral. He talks about he's like oh and when we speak of anguish we mean that.

[01:07:27] Like what an existentialist means by anguish is that we have the anguish of choosing for all of humankind. And it's like you said it doesn't follow at all and he doesn't do the work to make it follow.

[01:07:38] He just sort of says it and then knocks people who don't think this. So he says the existentialist frankly states that man is an anguish his meaning is as follows. When a man commits himself to anything fully realizing that he's not only choosing what he will be

[01:07:54] but is thereby at the same time a legislator deciding for the whole of mankind humankind. In such a moment a man cannot escape from the sense of complete and profound responsibility.

[01:08:04] There are many indeed who show no such anxiety but we affirm that they are merely disguising their anguish or are in flight from it. Certainly many people think that in what they are doing they commit no one but themselves to anything

[01:08:15] and ask them what would happen if everyone did so. They shrug their shoulders and reply everyone does not do so. But in truth one ought always ask oneself what would happen if everyone did as one is doing.

[01:08:25] Nor can one escape from that disturbing thought except by a kind of self deception. The man who lies in self excuse by saying everyone will not do it must be ill at ease in his conscience for the act of lying implies the universal value which it denies.

[01:08:38] But I just don't get it. I don't get it either. Why? Like why are they lying? It's true that not everybody will do it. And that other thing. Where is the lie there?

[01:08:49] I get that you might be lying to yourself if you think no, I was determined to have that choice when you experienced that you had multiple possibilities and you could choose one of them.

[01:09:03] I get why he might say that's a lie but why is it a lie to say something that is true and the person clearly believes? This is why I actually like analytic philosophy because they would be pushed to actually defend a claim like this.

[01:09:21] Like be forced to explain why this follows at all.

[01:09:25] It feels like he's hand waving here and the hand waving that I feel that he's doing is again one that seems like PR friendly for existentialism which is no we're not like we also firmly believe that one ought act as a person.

[01:09:42] As if the world's values depends on what you yourself do. Yeah, I think you're right. Like he's worried about people dismissing it or criticizing it for being just too like anything goes subjective. But it's such a violent extreme response to that work.

[01:10:02] So even take his very famous case which we should talk about which is the student who comes to SART and has to make this big decision. This life defining like or I guess life creating decision. I love this section by the way. Yeah, I do too.

[01:10:21] So here's the setup is this it's a student comes to SART says I don't know what to do. His elder brother has been killed in the German offensive of 1940. This young man who has a primitive but generous sentiment burned to avenge.

[01:10:41] I like the way this is why people don't like it. Sentiment somewhat primitive and but generous like fuck off. If you're a student burned to avenge him.

[01:10:54] His mother was living alone with him deeply afflicted by the semi-treason of his father and by the death of her eldest son and her one consolation was this young man.

[01:11:03] But he at this moment had the choice between going to England to join the free French forces or of staying near his mother and helping her to live. He fully realized that this woman lived only for him in his disappearance or perhaps death would plunger into despair.

[01:11:17] He also realized that concretely and in fact every action he performed on his mother's behalf would be sure to affect in the sense of aiding her to live.

[01:11:25] Whereas anything he did to go to fight would be an ambiguous act action which might vanish like water into sand and so serve and serve no purpose. What could help him to choose. So then he goes through these different things like Christian doctrine.

[01:11:37] Well no the Christian doctrine like you could interpret it either way for this right brotherly love like honor your mother. You know deny yourself for others. Yeah so like religious doctrines also the universalizability principle he says here explicitly that doesn't help.

[01:11:55] He doesn't say utilitarianism doesn't help but in some ways maybe it doesn't. Number one just that that's what you're deciding to observe as a fundamental moral principle like you're committing yourself to that.

[01:12:10] And number two of course you have no idea like which one would get would end up bringing more net happiness. Right. You going to fight or you bringing your mother so there's a practical thing too.

[01:12:20] And then the last thing he says which is kind of interesting is that he thinks like your sentiments aren't helpful here either. It's not like you can just trust your feelings.

[01:12:29] And one of the reasons he says that you can't is that a sentiment which is play acting and one which is vital are two things that are hardly distinguishable from one another one from another to decide that I love my mother by staying beside her and to play a comedy the

[01:12:47] upshot of which is that I do so these are nearly the same thing right because he thinks that and this is a theme that he has throughout this article that he says. Action really is the only thing that matters.

[01:13:00] And so he's you know almost like a like a behaviorist in this way says the only sense in which the word say love means anything is if you act in a way that indicates that you love somebody.

[01:13:14] So your staying is the love right so you can't use love as justifying staying. Yeah, no. He's definitely saying that I think here he's also saying that like pretend feelings and real feelings are the same.

[01:13:30] Not in the sense that they're like definitionally the same because you know it's only the action that matters but I think also because like we can't often ourselves just distinguish between feelings that we kind of are trying to put on for some reason and

[01:13:45] right and genuine feelings right. Yeah, like you know like oh I'm supposed to be sad because my my my father is really ill versus I really am sad that my father is right. Right. Like both of them are feelings it's hard. Yeah.

[01:14:01] Yeah the part about the action is like in the paragraph right before. Yeah. But yeah. She also definitely believes is that your action just defines. Yeah. In other words feeling is formed by the deeds that one does therefore I cannot consult it as a guide to action.

[01:14:17] There's a kind of fetishism of action right in this because it is tied to choice which is that fundamental thing in the way that feelings aren't tied to choice.

[01:14:29] But I do so I do love this point that that you know systems of ethics can't tell this man what to do like this. Absolutely right. Right.

[01:14:39] It's a great point and it's we've talked a little bit about this before sort of joking that business ethics can't teaching Kant to like people who are in business school is not it's not going to get them or like teaching you till turn it was not going to get them to like make the right decision.

[01:14:55] It's just going to give them some way to justify whatever decision they want to make because like these big systems of ethics don't they're not good at guiding guiding choice there on they under specify like if that's their goal at all.

[01:15:08] Like I mean some you know you might say that is their goal and they fail but you might also say no like Kant's you know Kant wanted to ground morality in general not tell you what to do. But either way it's not going to help you. Yeah.

[01:15:21] That that young man has to make the choice based on all of the specific features of his life and his values and nobody can do it for him. Like there's no book that will give me the answer. Right.

[01:15:33] There's two different issues I think there's one that any moral system. Will probably under specify and won't be able to tell you what to do in this case unless it's like rule number one never leave your mother or something. Yeah.

[01:15:46] Rule number two always got to fight for your country. And that's one problem but then the other problem is even if you know your moral theory could give you a really good sense of what to do. There's still all these competing moral theories. Yeah.

[01:16:02] You would have to decide which one of them to consult and even when you ask advice from people it's like you know what you're going to you know what you're going to get.

[01:16:11] Like if you go to your priest and you know the priest is going to tell you to stay with your mother then you've made that choice. Yeah.

[01:16:19] And he says similarly in coming to me he knew what advice I should give him and I had but one reply to make you are free therefore choose that is to say invent. No rule of general morality can show you what you ought to do.

[01:16:34] No signs are out saved in this world. Oh thanks. Thanks John Paul. I appreciate that. JP you give me a solid. You'll fuck yourself. Just give me an answer. How did like you have free.

[01:16:51] Imagine being a student that really like came to him for this and this is what and this is what he said. You know like the student then like just broke a chair. My first act of freedom will be to break a chair over Sarca's head. So so what.

[01:17:09] So I think we both agree this is a great example in it to kind of highlight these these choices that we have where it really does feel like we're responsible because we're committing ourselves to one thing or another that in that's kind of define that's going to define ourselves in some way.

[01:17:25] Yeah. You abandon your mother to go fight for your country or do you stay with your mother while other people are dying to try to fight the Nazis and you're not like that will define you and there's no way out of you having to make that choice.

[01:17:40] I think that's right. That's really an interesting that's really interesting what it doesn't do though is show me that that young man when he decides for himself is deciding for all human. It seems like precisely the kind of case where that's not true.

[01:17:56] No and it's so weird to read this example in it like in the paragraph immediately following that other thing where you're just like wait do you have a can you just undermine your like or are you trying to like say no no I meant I meant that the universal value here is to like to be free and that's what I mean by decide

[01:18:19] because there's no way out of it without weaseling a little bit. I mean I think you could say that when like there's a way to make a kind of trivial which is to say that all I mean by universalizable is if you are this exact person.

[01:18:34] Like that's what you think but then you're not really choosing for all humanity in any real sense.

[01:18:40] That's the only thing that makes even remote sense or even like you are this kind of person you know like a French person of this particular temperament with this with a mother this dependent on you and every version of you in a nearby universe.

[01:19:00] Something like yeah yeah yeah.

[01:19:02] Yeah, no I choose to ignore his universalizability point in this right because I think that he doesn't need it and he didn't need to say it like if what he wants to do is somehow ground decision making in a way that's not utterly selfish.

[01:19:20] You know I think the attack on existentialism that it's super self indulgent and value less is again I'm repeating myself but what probably made him try to say like no no no that that thing that's not what it is and I believe him that it's not what it is.

[01:19:36] I just don't think he found the right way to define the values.

[01:19:41] Seems like the exact right place to defend some sort of particularism or you know pluralism without negating values like it's like there was the he had the chance right there to make like if he had just even written an article starting starting with this point about this young man and then gone on to say how existentialism.

[01:20:03] You know shows you that there can't be there's no universal answer to this problem and I really you know I like his point about it that that the cowardice would be in somehow copping out of a decision or thinking that you you're not making the decision that you have to embrace the fact that you're free to make these decisions.

[01:20:21] Yeah right he says there are some people who use this resource to sustain them in their misery that is to think circumstances have been against me I was worthy to be something much better than I have been.

[01:20:33] I admit I've never had a great love or a great friendship but because I've never met a man or woman who are worthy of it.

[01:20:39] If I have not written any good books it's because I had not the leisure to do so blah blah blah and he's like no like you either do it or you don't.

[01:20:47] Yeah there's that potential that you're talking about is just your it's another kind of reflection of bad faith on your part. Exactly he's like don't I think this is something he pulled back a little bit on in the later years and I know Simone de Beauvoir.

[01:21:07] Wow yeah well I almost you know I wanted to suggest one of her writings but like I was about to suggest the first chapter of her book or the second sex.

[01:21:20] I don't remember now but it was a bit about it was an existential maybe we'll save it for the future. You know the way he describes it makes it sound like your the choices are boundless within like you know natural right physical law you know obviously you can.

[01:21:36] You know obviously you can't decide to fly but and I think one influence she had on him was making that there are these constraints that are narrower than he is you know making it out to be here.

[01:21:51] And that there might be something true to the fact that somebody might have been a great writer but just never had the time to really write except for but whenever he did it was like it was it showed this like a lot of talent but unfortunately the person had to work two jobs.

[01:22:05] And never really got a chance to see that come to fruition that makes sense. Yeah I think it's like when he says it the way that he says it. I know the kind of person he's talking about. But but it seems like it is too strong a claim.

[01:22:21] To say that that's like he's kind of saying it's in coherent almost. It's like to say that your potentiality is just the sum of what you've done. That's what he said. Just do it. Just come on just do it. What's wrong with you.

[01:22:36] Pull yourself up like my my my ancestors. Nobody ever handed no handouts. You think this black turtleneck and cigarette in my hand got there on their own.

[01:22:52] Maybe as a way of closing there's another kind of interesting analogy that he makes that is again in the complete opposition to this idea of universalizability.

[01:23:03] But if you just take that out seems resonant with other stuff which is like aesthetic value versus moral value analogy that he gives. Yeah.

[01:23:14] And he says like for good first of all we're not propounding an aesthetic morality right like we're not we're not we don't think of our selves like maybe Nietzsche sometimes did as like these great statues to build you know like with our choices.

[01:23:29] And he says so I'm not saying that although it's a little unclear I think what exactly the difference is but he says that being understood does anyone reproach an artist when he paints a picture for not following rules established a priori.

[01:23:43] Does does does one ever ask what a what is the picture that he ought to paint.

[01:23:48] As everyone knows there's no predefined picture for him to make the artist applies himself to the composition of a picture and the picture that ought to be made is precisely that which he will have made as everyone knows there are no aesthetic values a priori but there are

[01:24:03] values which will appear in due course in the coherence of the picture in the relation between the will to create in the finished work.

[01:24:10] What has this to do with morality we aren't all in the same creative situation we never speak of a work of art as irresponsible when we are discussing a canvas by Picasso we understand very well that the composition became what it is at the time when he was painting it and then his works of art are part and parcel of his entire life.

[01:24:29] And nobody says oh well that that means the paintings don't really have value because there was no a priori rules that set that that determine it has value it has whatever value it is that you put into it and that people recognize.

[01:24:43] Yeah I was I was struggling to understand what like how this analogy was supposed to work because he's clearly made a strong statement you know about your slides ability and here with his aesthetic analogy.

[01:25:02] Like it seems it sounds like what he's saying is well look no one just like no one can tell you what you ought to paint. But once you painted it.

[01:25:14] He doesn't say this explicitly but he talks about the the there are values which will appear in due course in the coherence of the picture in the relationship between the will to create and the finished work.

[01:25:25] Like is he saying that a work of art once produced can be evaluated in like contextually we can say this Picasso this was good or this was bad without having to say a priori what Picasso should have painted.

[01:25:41] Yeah and that that real values can be identified I think the idea there like I guess like in. Yes yeah in the context.

[01:25:52] Oh this is Picasso and then you know also you know you're going to imagine not just that you find it like on a beach and you know nothing about Picasso but you're going to actually you know relate it to other works of his that he has and and more the more you know about just the arc maybe of his career the more values that you'll pick up on.

[01:26:14] Yeah but all these things came through his spontaneous creative acts of will and would not have you know nobody could have said alright I think this is the this is what will make for a value valuable Picasso work that had to just emerge as he did it right.

[01:26:34] And so he wants to say you know he's in part addressing this criticism that well then you can't as an existentialist you can't judge like you are unable to judge others.

[01:26:45] He says this is true and one sense and false and another is true in this sense that whenever a man chooses his purpose and his commitment and all clearness and in all sincerity whatever that purpose may be it it is impossible for him to prefer another it is true in the sense that we do not believe in progress.

[01:27:00] I don't know he kind of loses me.

[01:27:04] Progress implies amelioration but man is always the same facing a situation which is always changing and choice remains always a choice in the situation the moral problem has not changed at the time when it was a choice between slavery and anti slavery from the time of the war of succession until the present moment when one chooses between whatever the movement Republican popular and the communists.

[01:27:24] We can judge nevertheless for as I have said one chooses in view of others and in view of others one chooses himself. Like I right is that jibber.

[01:27:34] I was trying to suck out and like I think that what he's trying to say like I'm being charitable is that he is trying to say that abandoning like our abandonment of a priori.

[01:27:53] The rule books does not mean that we're unable to say that something is good and something is bad is just that you can't say that something is good or bad without taking into account like whatever both the ultimate freedom of the person and their journey so far and all the choices they've made I guess.

[01:28:12] Yeah I mean I think it's saying that in like ice skating there's just things that they're judged on or like in a sport like you know there's ways to win points and lose points and we have that all established and chest there are rules and so we can.

[01:28:28] We can assess how well the person plays based on how well they play according to those rules but with morality it's not like that that doesn't mean we can't judge the people just like we can.

[01:28:40] And this is where I think the aesthetic analogy is helpful like there are no rules like ironclad rules when it comes to art but we are able to distinguish between better and worse artists. Yeah.

[01:28:55] And without this kind of false presumption that there is some standard by which to judge them like some just universally true standard right. Right.

[01:29:08] You know I like the analogy I don't think he's saying it very well but the analogy I think is a powerful one in that like with aesthetic choices and aesthetic actions like music or whatever.

[01:29:22] The more I learn about music the more comfortable I am in deciding that something is better than something else or worse than something else without ever feeling like I'm an absolutist.

[01:29:35] Moral choices I think often are framed or communicated as rules that are unbending and you know I get why but with aesthetic judgments I trust like the person who knows a lot about music who tells me that this is a better work than this other one.

[01:29:57] I trust that they just have a better understanding of all of the things that go into making good art and that at some point like I would be able to realize that without really feeling like they're being disingenuous in their judgment or that they're being capricious. Right.

[01:30:17] And that it's not or that they've tapped into some like right universal rule book. That's right. They're neither. Yeah they're neither entirely capricious nor are they like have they discovered the secret commandments. Right. Yeah. And but we can still feel very comfortable saying we can judge these. Yeah.

[01:30:36] You know we're not saying we're definitely right. Right. But we're making judgments we're making evaluative judgments there.

[01:30:42] So I think you give me this 15 years ago or 20 years ago when I'm still in grad school or just you know like an early grad school and I am making fun of it even though like my interest in existentialism is almost certainly what led me. Right.

[01:31:00] In large part to philosophy but like I would have thought this is you know especially with regards to treatment of free will you know like it's like it might as well be Roderick Chisholm or something. It's just this libertarian blabber.

[01:31:15] But now I but I don't think it's that like I think it is you know it has metaphilosophical kind of it works from different metaphilosophical assumptions in how it's approaching philosophy or how it's approaching just talking about freedom.

[01:31:33] And once you understand that that's a really valuable that's a valuable thing. I mean I wonder if it's true of Roderick Chisholm. Maybe it is.

[01:31:41] You know what what you just made me think of is that there is so one I think I'm the same like there's this sort of U shaped curve where like I ate the stuff up in college then thought it was soft and European and now now like I'm coming to see the value in it.

[01:32:01] But with existentialism in particular it's almost. It's the way that that's hard for us laying this out. This very essay demonstrates that speaking of this plainly in a philosophical treaties is not the best way to do it.

[01:32:24] And I think that there's a reason that so much of what we call existentialist work is art. Yeah, because like that seems like a good medium to convey the ideas of existentialism.

[01:32:38] The minute you try to lay it out in this in this you know quasi analytical philosophy sort of way it seems to lose something. Yeah, right. It comes to schematic.

[01:32:50] Yeah, I mean it becomes theorized in a way that I mean of course we're coming at this from our own traditions but maybe not the best way to try to portray something which is so fundamentally tied to the subjective. Yeah.

[01:33:06] You know like given that it's so fundamentally tied to the subjective trying to talk about it in a in this kind of theoretical way just betrays that at some level and that's when you start going.

[01:33:18] You know just throwing in universalize ability like just for like just like it just stumbled into the paper like when I was in a different paper or something like that. It's like just walking into the wrong room.

[01:33:32] Is it the yeah the the form the medium the form that he's using to convey these ideas.

[01:33:38] And as you say maybe it's our our experience and our perspective but like if you lay it out as if it's a carefully structured argument, then like I will respond to it by finding the flaws in the argument.

[01:33:54] And that's, and I don't think that's like the points that I take existentialism to be making are, you know, maybe this is even why I have like a higher tolerance for someone like Kierkegaard who was writing.

[01:34:07] Nonfiction, but was still writing it in this sort of more poetic essay kind of way.

[01:34:15] Yeah, not not in this sort of like and right number two we mean just by despair we mean this and three by anguish we mean this like he was just speaking of anguish and despair.

[01:34:27] Like, yeah I mean all that said though if it hadn't been for the universalize ability part of this so you just remove that.

[01:34:34] Then I would say there's about an average number like it's average for an analytic philosophy paper, especially one of these kind of classic papers where you know clearly it.

[01:34:43] Yeah, click, you know just inspired a lot of interest but then there are these big blind spots that you're like how did somebody this smart not see them.

[01:34:51] Yeah, it's just the unit like and so like I appreciated it for that compared to a lot of other exes like primary existentialist sources that can be just like either indecipherable or just very tedious.

[01:35:05] Right. And I think what I looked at in of being in nothingness, the big Sartre book like, like I just couldn't like I because I did I was interested in that stuff but I don't think I could get through it.

[01:35:17] Yeah, even close. Yeah. Yeah. You know and like and one of the reasons we even chose this was because when we were deciding to talk about existentialism, it didn't seem like we should start with one of those like short stories or plays or like it helps actually helps to have an explicit

[01:35:41] Yeah, treating of the subject that that then we can use as like a starting point to agree or disagree with whatever but you know like rather than have us rather than have it rely so much on our interpretation as we would in a short story or something like that.

[01:35:56] Yeah, I think it is worth reading it even though it's true that I think it portrays something to even try to get this theoretical or it also is helpful. Yeah, and will help us as I'm sure we you know we're getting we're getting old people we're going to be really concerned with these existential

[01:36:16] existentialism. Well, really shape curve I think is right. Yeah, yeah. I really mainly just want to know what this guy did. Did he stay with his mom? Did he go to war? He really that's a big question.

[01:36:31] He spent like the next 15 years in prison for like an assault on Jean-Paul Sartre. He was like, he was just scrawled all over his cell wall as like Sergeant like little newspaper clippings of them. Choose this you motherfucker. All right.

[01:36:54] All right, join us next time of your own free choice. Create yourself next time by listening to very bad with

[01:37:39] very good man just a very bad wizard.

Episode 222: Choosing Sartre for All Mankind