Episode 218: ...But You Can't Hide (Michael Haneke's "Caché")

[00:00:00] Very Bad Wizards is a podcast with a philosopher, my dad, and psychologist, David Pizarro, having an informal discussion about issues in science and ethics. Please note that the discussion contains bad words that I'm not allowed to say, and knowing my dad some very inappropriate jokes.

[00:00:17] Now don't want to ruin your own fun! Because I know morelty isn't sexy. The Queen and Oz has spoken! Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain! Are you a very bad man? I'm a very good man.

[00:00:50] They think deep thoughts, and with no more brains than you have. Pay no attention to that man! Anybody can have a brain? You're a very bad man! I'm a very good man. Just a very bad wizard.

[00:01:11] Welcome to Very Bad Wizards, I'm Tamler Sommers from the University of Houston. Dave, this is the last opening segment we're recording here in Montana. What are you going to miss the most? You. Really? I mean just your company, your face. Hikes? I don't know.

[00:01:31] It's really nice that we were just talking today about how even in the other times that we've hung out, it's rarely been like just the two of us hanging out for better or for worse. That's right. Now we've had a lot of time together and it's been great.

[00:01:45] Beautiful here. So thank you to the Seavers for hosting us. So today we're going to talk about a movie that we actually both watched here in Montana. Together we rewatched it. We've both seen it called Cache by the Austrian director Michael Haneke. And it's a great movie.

[00:02:06] I think we recorded this yesterday. We had a good discussion on it. There's a lot of bourbon that is in our guest house that got drunk predominantly by me, I think. Yeah, no. It was fun to watch the movie next to you as well. Yeah, right.

[00:02:25] In bed, in a dark room, in bed next to each other. I mean we've probably said this a few times but it is funny how Dave and I, how rarely we've actually been in the same place at the same time given how well we know each other now

[00:02:42] and how often we interact. Yeah, super weird. I mean it still has to be single digits. But once we get over the initial awkwardness, it's fine. I didn't even know there was initial awkwardness but apparently. For the opening segment, I don't know, this was something I had.

[00:03:02] I think I had taken an edible and I just had like I was walking my dog at like 10 at night or something and then I just had this flash of a thought that we should do like a series.

[00:03:12] And I thought it could be Patreon bonus episodes or also opening segments of just a conceptual analysis, the thing that I love. Real philosophy. Yeah, real philosophy, analytic philosophy of the kind that is so necessary.

[00:03:28] Pinning down a concept that you hear a lot but you don't fully know what it means. Right. And the one that you, or I can remember who suggested it. Yeah, I suggested this one that we're doing today.

[00:03:42] Corny or corniness is our concept for today that we are going to break down and come up with a theory, come up with necessary and sufficient conditions that are immune from all possible counter examples. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

[00:03:58] Definitively, we will definitively solve the problem of what corny is. No, but corny is one of those words that has always helped fascination for me because being accused of telling a corny joke when I was like in middle school

[00:04:13] or like saying something corny was like, it was such the opposite of cool that it was really just like, oh, like it just hurt if someone told you your joke was corny. And I feel like I've always sort of been sensitive to corny-ness.

[00:04:27] And in fact, I think when I was in college, I coined a new emotion. I discovered a new emotion called the corny chills. And that is when someone's being so corny that like, oh my gosh. But we're thinking of corny as separate from cringe, right? Yes, yeah.

[00:04:46] Which will be interesting to try to figure out exactly what's the difference. Unlike you, I don't have a history with corny-ness. Like I would attribute it to certain jokes are kind of corny. They're just kind of lame is sort of how I thought of it.

[00:05:02] But I've been noticing recently the word being used in increasingly interesting ways, not just for like a stupid dad joke or something like that, but in ways that are kind of politically charged in ways that are.

[00:05:15] So for example, there was an article that I looked at because of a very funny tweet. But the article was how Lin-Manuel Miranda went from cool to corny in four years or something like that.

[00:05:32] And the tweet was, it's so sad that Lin-Manuel Miranda has become corny, comma, recently. I mean, hey, it's something that I've been saying for a long time and you were all on like Hamilton being like the coolest thing. Yeah, it was definitely not. I loved it.

[00:05:52] I thought it was fine and my daughter loved it. But that's a very like, and we can talk about why that fits Lin-Manuel Miranda and maybe Hamilton as a musical in particular.

[00:06:05] But like it's an indifferent use of corny than to just say, oh, that's a corny joke or something like that. Yeah, corny has, I mean, there are sort of, you know, distinctions perhaps to be made between, as you mentioned, cringey and corny.

[00:06:22] There's also a related cheesy that is kind of close to what people mean by corny. But the other way in which I know corny is as an insult to rappers.

[00:06:37] So from very early on, like in the 80s, you know, one of the worst things you could say about another rapper was that they were corny and it's definitely not the same. So some people think of corny as in the cheesy kind of way, which is overly sentimental.

[00:06:55] But corny as a rapper is being predictable, like sort of bad in a way that like you're just doing stuff that other people do or you're doing stuff that's old.

[00:07:07] That was, you know, especially like back in the when when I started listening to rap, there was like this news quote unquote new school, which was like in the in the like 87, 89, they wanted to distinguish themselves from those like rappers who would wrap in the early 80s with the ABAB kind of style like that.

[00:07:25] That became corny. If you sounded like that, you were corny. And I'm good. Yeah. And I'm here to say, yeah, terribly, terribly corny. And so so doing something that sort of tried or overused, especially without, you know, there's a heightened sense of irony in today's young generations. Yes.

[00:07:44] This corp being corny, you can't be doing it on purpose. I think corny means you're being sincere and you're being just sincerely corny. It's just bad. Yeah, yeah.

[00:07:54] I think corny it's this isn't an exception less principle, but it's definitely something younger people refer to like call older people. And it's rare that you would do it the other way around. They're right.

[00:08:08] That would call like a younger thing, a younger person corny like it's it is something that it seems like the younger generations are always going to be like aiming at and and you know, I think like corny.

[00:08:21] Often is like say like something that's a sacred cow like Hamilton or like some some movie that everybody loves. If you call it corny, it's a way of knocking it off its pedestal. Yeah, you know, it's there is a so I find musicals to be corny often.

[00:08:38] And when I say that, I think that I'm referring to the part that is the overly sentimental and mockish sort of like emotional nature of many musicals. Where they're singing about their love for each other or they start spontaneously singing about whatever conflicts going on.

[00:08:56] So let me give an example that you used back when we did the Atlanta episode and you called the white husband of that woman who is hosting the the Juneteenth.

[00:09:08] Yeah, the Juneteenth party for all these like rich people but he was a very like he embraced black and African culture and now I think some people might.

[00:09:19] Have thought that that guy when we talked about this episode is when we had Lauren Anderson on you can go back and listen to it if you haven't heard it yet but some people might call that guy more cringe than corny, but you were very adamant that he was corn.

[00:09:34] Yeah, I mean, I think he was cringe also like especially with his spoken spoken word. But corny corny I often in my usage at least in like at least the usage that I've understood other people can be the real opposite of cool.

[00:09:55] Like if you were asked, what is the opposite of being cool? Corny you're like trying you're kind of trying too hard. Yeah. And you're not saying anything new you're sort of saying so this is actually I just looked up some definitions of the Cambridge.

[00:10:09] Not that this is the way to do analytic philosophy, but it's corny here Cambridge dictionary showing no I especially jokes movie stories showing no new ideas or too often repeated and therefore not funny or interesting.

[00:10:22] And then other people define it as over overly sentimental like when you when you know if somebody were to imagine like you're in a classroom and some guy walks in and says I wanted to clear my love to you know some man is the most wonderful person I've ever met and gives flowers in the middle of it you're

[00:10:37] like oh my God that was so corny like there's something there's something.

[00:10:40] But in that sense it's like it's corny but it's also kind of sweet you know like you can use it as like it's corny but like I liked it or something like there are some people who embrace the cornyness so like in fact they they resist be like they'll say well fine if

[00:10:56] it's corny like I want to tell my wife I love her in front of everybody like call me corny you know. So it's some in some ways it's sort of like being it's still defined as corny but they're. Doesn't have to be embracing exactly.

[00:11:11] They're re re re appropriating the term. Corny jokes I guess really are ones that are so predictable or old. It's funny though because now there is this like a resurgence of anti humor in a way that what might have been seen as clearly uncool back in the day.

[00:11:31] Now might just be seen as meta and ironic like to tell why did the chicken crossed the road joke it was corny back in the day like it's like you're not stupid.

[00:11:41] And now now people might just do it ironically or you know it feels like it's a concept that is harder to nail down because you have people who are doing it because it's funny to think that they're being corny.

[00:11:57] But so I think you're not answering the question of why I guess what was the question about why the guy from Atlanta is corny and why this is often used in kind of political it's a way of like making a

[00:12:10] political statement about why you know what this person is doing is and the reason I say that is like I think that like that's important to come to nail down this new way that the word is being used.

[00:12:25] Corny for that guy that character in Atlanta to me is a combination of sort of him saying things that like, you know, like clearly he's just heard other people say like the, you know, like, a lot of the of the trying to identify with the struggles of the black man

[00:12:44] is using like tripe and all phrases about it. But it's also corny I think has a flavor of inauthenticity where you could be really corny if you're not being genuinely see I would think that that's wrong like that's the opposite like he is being authentic.

[00:13:04] It's just it's just lame and, you know, and like he is like that guy believe I think that guy believes everything that he's saying and if somebody's being inauthentic, then I don't think it's corny anymore it's something else it's like slippery or it's

[00:13:20] virtue signaling or it's well no I mean like so take vanilla ice back in the day who is you know making rap songs and hugely like the accusation of him being a corny rapper was maybe something to do with the actual

[00:13:33] raps but it was also something to do with like that's not you're not right you're adopting something that's not you yeah that's kind of like what this guy is like this guy was acting as if he had this deep understanding of black but but he wasn't

[00:13:47] all right well let's get some necessary conditions then is is sincere to this is like sincere kind of a necessary condition that you are like you think it's funny like that guy thinks that he is like connecting with the black experience

[00:14:02] you think this knock knock joke is funny or yeah there's Manuel and Hamilton in Hamilton really does kind of feel like this is this is like something that's can bring us all together and and make kids learn and appreciate history

[00:14:17] in a fun and like exciting way yeah yeah I think that's that's actually right like the excitement of something saying hey dude tamer check out this awesome rap that I wrote and then just saying something like really whack and

[00:14:32] like oh man like that sincerity is that lack of self awareness about about you not being funny or not being good or being lame lame you said lame lame is a really good word to accompany corny when you're accusing somebody of whatever this is I think this isn't a necessary condition because it obviously wouldn't apply to something

[00:14:52] like corny jokes but like it seems like in this new way that it's being used a person is doing something that that accords with the sort of the dominant kind of liberal moral you know I don't know are you getting all this from just the

[00:15:08] Linman well Miranda thing I feel like you're applying your you you're using that as as a or just you with the you know you saying with the Atlanta guy and that that that it's like I am it's not virtue signaling because it the person I think buys the shit that they're that they're selling but it is

[00:15:28] something that just seems like this person is posing even though they don't know that they're posing or something like that in a way that would come off as virtuous in the way that liberals kind of think virtue should be expressed.

[00:15:42] I think that you do hit on something but I don't think it's politic well I don't think it's partisan so when the whatever we're calling this the riots on the Capitol on January 6 happened.

[00:15:57] Yeah I tweeted out these are the corny is looking writers I've ever seen right and there is referring to like the sincerity with which they like prepped and bought like tactical pants you know and and like they were wearing just like they just looked so like they tried so hard to look cool but they in fact don't look

[00:16:17] cool and that's what I think Lin Manuel Miranda is doing and that's what I think yeah the the white guy on right he's trying really hard to look cool in a sincere way and he thinks other people are thinking he's cool right you know.

[00:16:29] Yeah I think that's it it's this pretense it's a pretension to coolness that's juxtaposed at the same time with just you know like no this is like this is not cool it hasn't been cool for a while if it ever was cool it's definitely not cool now and you doing it especially.

[00:16:46] Is even less cool than right right it's like fellow kids hey fellow you know.

[00:16:52] Okay so we'd be I like you've hit on the then it's it's funny because at first I was like wait you're right about the sincerity part but why was I saying inauthentic it's like a weird thing where it's like you sincerely think you're being cool you're trying to be cool you probably think that other people think you're cool but it's really not it's it's really.

[00:17:11] Super not cool and in some ways you're trying makes it seem like it's not of you and so it's kind of inauthentic in that way right.

[00:17:20] You're hard yeah yeah you wouldn't be trying so hard to be cool you wouldn't need to buy the tactical pants and you know like the have like the granola in your side pocket next to your knee so that you can when you're storming the capital you can you have some some snacks.

[00:17:40] Yeah and that even applies to like corny jokes like the pretense there is that this is funny and kind of funny and new or interesting in some way or like maybe like some corny jokes somebody would thought was edgy but it's so like you know that kind of humor hasn't been edgy for the last like 20 years and so.

[00:18:00] So it's like yeah this mismatch between like your pretension and the reality of the thing that that only somebody and usually somebody younger will be able to call out right identify right right right because they have greater access to because the notion of cool is really one it's an aesthetic notion that changes like fashion so younger people have better access to what school and they're more likely to define what school.

[00:18:30] So like parents are corny all the time to their kids because you know yeah we present a parent yeah well we've said has been said so many times it's just yeah I am interested in our if we do this on a next segment to juxtapose corny with cringe.

[00:18:45] It's possible that cringe is a subset of corny like like but I think it also has other characters like there's an overlap there's like a Venn diagram or you'd be corny and cringy cringe. Yeah has this separate component and it's to me a newer concept.

[00:18:59] Yes yeah definitely nobody was saying that was so cringe like in just like 2010 they would talk about cringe humor like the British office or something like that but they I don't think it was not an adjective in the sense of like you would say that somebody is cringe.

[00:19:16] Yeah it's there's this funny sort of meta feeling that I'm having which is my daughter listening to me talk about what cringe is is probably really corny yes. Yeah oh my god that. Like we should do a conceptual analysis of sus.

[00:19:34] Like that when I like tried to like not even try because I knew that it was gonna piss her off like I tried to use us with my daughter she just was like I'm not engaging with that but she wouldn't even pretend to be like annoyed or roll her eyes or whatever she's just like I'm not even going to engage.

[00:19:55] Maybe because some some sayings or concepts as we're calling them.

[00:20:00] Some of these terms are actually old terms that have been sort of newly discovered by the tick tock generation and so my daughter there's something I can't think of the example now but I said something and my daughter was just like I rolling at me because she was getting the corny chills at me trying to use a term that was like of her generation and I was like fuck you that term is from like 1985 like I've been saying it for years just not in front of you like we imagine.

[00:20:25] She's like I don't think so. Yeah that's a little sus you're even saying that.

[00:20:33] Alright when we come back we will talk about definitely a not corny movie at all like that if there's one thing you can say about cash it is not corny corny movies is an interesting category yeah yeah but that is your definitive conceptual analysis of corny nose.

[00:20:52] Somebody publish it in a coherent paper monograph and put our names you could be first off put our names on. Give us the pubs we need it. Alright we'll great back.

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[00:24:24] Welcome back to very bad wizards this is the time where we like to take a moment and thank all the people who get in touch with us in all the various ways that you do that.

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[00:31:15] Thanks everybody. All right well let's get to our main segment on cashier this is as all of our movie episodes are we're going to be spoiling the shit out of it. It's not like there's a big twist or anything like that but.

[00:31:32] But no yeah I mean one obviously if we like the movie we want you to watch it first but two it wouldn't make that much sense I mean it's a psychological thriller and there's a plot involved. Well you've been warned.

[00:31:44] You know your adults except some of you so you make your own decisions. Let me give a brief synopsis for those listeners who haven't seen it or who haven't seen it in a long time.

[00:31:56] Cache is a film by the Austrian director Michael Hanneke about a Parisian middle aged couple public TV host and minor celebrity named George played by Danielle toy and his wife and played by the great Juliet Benoche they're both great.

[00:32:13] They're living the life of bougie French intellectuals both professionally successful and kind of doing what it seems like they're interested in and they have a 12 year old son named. We see them as they're viewing a videotape that an anonymous person this is when we first meet them.

[00:32:34] A videotape that was sent to them by an anonymous person and the tape is just of the exterior of their house from a nearby street nothing's really happening in it just some people walking by occasionally some birds chirping we'll get back to the birds chirping a bike a car nothing soon they get more video tapes which become a

[00:32:56] sometimes still the exterior but they progress along with the plot also some weird cards that look like they were drawn by like a five or six year old or me yeah or me to have a boy with blood coming out of his mouth.

[00:33:13] There's one with a headless chicken and all they start to proliferate where they're going to like they also these tapes or the cards are going to different places that are connected with George his work.

[00:33:26] His kids school and all of them seem to focus we learn on an Algerian named my G the son of George's parents. Who he was there the parents were their groundskeeper and I don't know if the wife I don't remember if the wife.

[00:33:44] They both worked the parents both worked for them. Yeah. And so the groundskeeper and his wife were killed in the Paris massacre of 1961.

[00:33:54] This is briefly where the French police there was a huge protest of the Algerian war in Paris and the French police killed up to 300 of them it was hard to tell because I think a lot of it involved them drowning in the sin river.

[00:34:09] This is towards the end of the Algerian war where the people of French occupied Algeria were fighting for their independence.

[00:34:17] So that's what happened to them and then you learn that my G was going to be adopted by George's parents and although the details are fuzzy it seems like George did some devious shit for a six year old to get him ejected from his house and so my G ended up growing up in a children's home.

[00:34:38] So it's a sort of like foster home type situation right it's actually unclear because as a six year old he doesn't remember where yeah he was told yeah and we get a lot of this.

[00:34:49] It's not clear how much but we get a lot of this from George's perspective only so George goes and he starts to suspect that my G is behind all these things so he goes and confronts my G to things exit escalate from there leading ultimately to my G slidding his own throat in front of George.

[00:35:07] George towards the end of the movie is confronted by my G son with just accusations but not anything concrete and then the movie ends with us not knowing who sent the tapes but with a tantalizing clue that we're of course going to talk about.

[00:35:22] So Dave you and I just rewatch this together in bed next to each other. Not even a joke. Way more intimate than I'm used to it. Yeah exactly. We went from never seeing each other just lying in bed watching a movie in the afternoon.

[00:35:38] So I know the answer to this question but why don't you tell our listeners what did you think overall of cashier. I loved it it was it was first of all just really well shot the movie looks great.

[00:35:52] The pacing is one of those you know it's a psychological thriller. It's slow but slow in the way that I like because the tension is just building. There's no soundtrack to manipulate your emotions at all. There's no score or there's no score.

[00:36:08] Yeah there's there is just the silence. Oftentimes you don't know whether you're watching a surveillance surveillance video or you're watching the regular part of the movie which is I think on purpose you're getting fucked with.

[00:36:22] So I think it builds builds nicely as a psychological thriller the tension and it leaves you know just the kind of open ended mystery that we obviously really enjoy. Keep coming back to works of art that do that.

[00:36:36] Yeah it's in French with subtitles just if that wasn't clear. I guess we'll just go through the movie. I mean it's clearly there's a couple things that are clearly going on number one like Dave said you there's so many times where we don't know.

[00:36:51] Whether what we're watching is just like we're watching the movie of them or what we're watching is a videotape that is being sent that will you know the way we usually find out is someone will rewind or they'll just be a voice coming where there's just shouldn't be a voice in the tape.

[00:37:10] And it's the voice of the people watching the tape and this will even happen at like George's work like when he for he hosts this just insufferable.

[00:37:18] Like it's like almost a parody of French intellectuals talked about like you know this literature and like Rambo and but there's just even like Rambo first blood part to. But like even then we see because George which is actually kind of interesting is editing his own.

[00:37:39] Yeah past but in this case it's the past of him having recorded a show with just four other insumper insufferable French people and and like even there it's like we get that trick played on us where we think we're just watching George doing the show but it's actually him editing it right right.

[00:37:50] Exactly. So there's there's something that the director does which is we talked a little bit about this as we're watching which is the quality of the surveillance footage is identical to the quality of the film something which wouldn't be true in real life right except for until you see the BCR sort of lines that are you know with the

[00:38:06] rewinding or pausing but because if you want to be realistic you it would be like a degraded kind of surveillance video but it's not I think just to drive this effect which I think it's very very effective as a way to build this tension.

[00:38:21] Not quite knowing whose perspective you're seeing things from is unsettling in a really really good way. Yeah and it just does that kind of throughout a disorient you in ways that definitely seem to be a very good way to do the work. Yeah.

[00:38:33] And it's just a very very effective as a way to build this tension not quite knowing whose perspective you're seeing things from is unsettling in a really really good way. Yeah and it just does that kind of throughout a disorient you in ways that definitely seem to relate to how George and

[00:38:54] Anne are being disorienting and unsettled and just like that and things are sort of they don't know exactly what to believe. So that's the first thing the second thing is there is clearly some parallels here. It's it can almost seem heavy handed

[00:39:13] but I think actually we can talk about I don't mind when it does but it this story of George and what he did to my G'd this is parallels like a little microcosm of French French and the Algerians and specifically the Paris massacre which the French like

[00:39:35] France had never really acknowledged or apologized and one of the things that George is resisting with all his might throughout the movie is taking any responsibility for what happened to my G'd and that is parallel and reflecting at least a microcosm of the French

[00:39:53] struggling to accept their responsibility for their colonial adventure run Algeria. I mean I didn't even know about the sand massacre. So them wiping their memory their collective memories of the way they treat

[00:40:04] the Algerians mirrors the way that George seems to have wiped his memory. I'll be it you know he was a six year old so it's unclear whether he bears any true responsibility for this but nonetheless he seems incapable of as the events unfold

[00:40:19] incapable of admitting accepting remembering maybe but remembering seems like he does but but he's in a lot of denial about the events that he caused that led to this poor kid being taken away and who he

[00:40:34] did. He's never even bothered to follow up to see what happened to this kid you know what what became of him he clearly is content in his weird bourgeois middle class upper middle class life to like have forgotten that chapter of his history.

[00:40:49] And I think although the parallels are kind of obvious with the French and the Algerian and their war. It's also something that we can all relate to especially now we're in a time where the country is struggling to accept its past

[00:41:04] struggling to know how to deal with it how to face it and we kind of carry on with our bougie lives you know not wanting to we're not like George who's just actively resisting and getting almost like defiant in his resistance to refuse to accept any kind of responsibility

[00:41:20] even when it's obvious. I mean in some ways and you said this before and I think I bear is repeating that like this movie isn't primarily it doesn't primarily feel like it's you know a moralistic tale about this.

[00:41:32] Yeah these parallels are there in the midst of a good psychological thriller but but the theme is obviously there but in a way us say being very clearly and obviously saying well whatever this country did back then I obviously can't be morally responsible

[00:41:48] there's like state legislatures all across the country like banning the teaching of our past in certain ways and specifically you can't tell kids to feel guilty because of their race I mean that's exactly what George is doing right he

[00:42:04] is he is just putting a iron rule out there that we are not allowed to feel responsible and we can talk about the degree of his responsibility because I think it is complicated that's something that's that's this is why this movie is not a didactic in any way

[00:42:20] it's yeah can we talk actually a little bit because I think it helps set the stage a little bit about George and Anne's life and their relationship because it's you mentioned that he is a sort of like a mild celebrity.

[00:42:34] It becomes apparent that so he hosts this sort of like talking round table discussion show where they talk about whatever you know intellectual authors seems like mostly yeah like literature yeah literature and it's on public television we find out

[00:42:49] and he's clear he clearly thinks very highly of himself he seems to take himself very seriously they live together along with Pierre the other 12 year old son she is a book publisher we also find out they live in a very nice looking apartment but they host dinner parties apparently all the time

[00:43:08] and in the middle of the dining room one of the primary shots that we get when we're watching these people talk to each other around the dining room table is this huge wall of books that are like a lot of people have bookshelves in their in their house but there is something very deliberate about the amount of books and the placement of books or at least deliver on the director's part to tell us like these people think of themselves.

[00:43:32] Well and also like you never can see the titles of the books and often it sometimes seems so there's this cool parallel of on his TV show they have as a background books but they're blank they're like there's no they're no titles they're just fake books to be like hey we're talking about books on this show like that's that's who we are that's really important.

[00:43:55] That's my name right and but that but his apartment is like that to like we never I don't think you ever can make out a title of any of the books there but they're all over the place and there's this one mirror that they have over their mantle and when you look in the mirror you see reflections of books so there's just you at every point.

[00:44:17] You are seeing books in their house but no windows and whatever windows there are seem very few windows seem Kate kind of caged in their whole they live in this it's not a gated complex because it's like this you know kind of Parisian Street upper middle class but not a huge apartment not an awesome ostentatious apartment in any way but there's still like several sets of doors and like gates to get at like locked gates to get out so they're very well protected.

[00:44:47] Yeah yeah protected very comfortable in their sort of protected so isolated except for you know there are other there are other friends of the same class.

[00:44:56] Yeah but not like not in any ways alienated but but also not happy not happy and happy and it will get to what might be going on one of the things might be going on the marriage but as as this the tension that comes from them all of a sudden starting to get these creepy packages that somebody's watching.

[00:45:17] And I think again like to to reiterate what you were saying like these video tapes all they're showing is that somebody is watching them and that's just creepy right there's they're not like one of the things one of the effects of the director uses like really wonderfully is that the images are of a static count you know there's no camera movement in the shots of surveillance as you would expect.

[00:45:42] There's camera movement during all the other times but you can you can feel the stillness when it turns into one of those shots. Yeah and but yeah the thing is he does that sometimes sometimes and you don't know whether he's like yeah. Like as a regular shot.

[00:45:55] Regular shots.

[00:45:57] They were both of us I leaned over next to me in bed and said like is this one of the tapes because I didn't it's unclear to me actually like I think it might be fun to go shot by shot and see whether or not these all are but sometimes you don't because there's no clear person watching them you don't know if the director is inserting a surveillance shot that they haven't seen yet or.

[00:46:17] But so as the tension right like as as always like the tension will reveal the underlying problems in a relationship so this is freaking them out but rather than like be supportive or like you know try to figure out get to the bottom of the same team on the same team.

[00:46:34] George clams up about it. He at some point seems to suspect who especially when he gets the drawings the drawings of the little kid with blood coming out of its mouth it's just in crayon or a chicken with its head cut off and blood spurting out.

[00:46:48] He seems to suspect now who's sending the tapes but he doesn't say shit.

[00:46:53] But like he doesn't say shit but but he says like I think I might know who it is but I want to say which is just driving his poor wife insane like what do you mean you might know who is sending us these threatening tapes like and you're not willing to say.

[00:47:04] And he becomes like an increasing asshole in the way that he deals with his wife so there's this tension in their relationship where you can just sense that she's very frustrated.

[00:47:13] The viewers for it like we were talking about it like fuck like I feel exactly like she's feeling like I got a lot of pressure. You get so exasperated with him and you know and he's a very unsympathetic I would say character without being outright like violent or.

[00:47:28] Yeah he isn't do like he's he's unsympathetic in his unwillingness to face up to anything but you know every every character in that household has that now I think this is part of it like you know this kind of thing spreads but the at one point the son disappears for a night doesn't tell his parents were.

[00:47:48] Where he is which freaks them out obviously and then when he gets home the next day.

[00:47:54] Julie up and oh she and is kind of saying like what were you thinking what were you doing and he would literally will not right just recognize that he has done something that's just obviously what a 12 year old kid should never do leave their like make your parents go into a panic.

[00:48:09] Yeah get them call the police and all of that and he just roof he's like kind of like reading something and like being like what like I don't even know what you're talking about there's all these exchanges where.

[00:48:19] One person will be like are you fucking kidding me that you're not like telling me what you're doing and then the other person will be like wait what like what are we talking about again and then like when the kid turns it around and sort of suggests that maybe his mom is having an affair she kind of does that too she's like.

[00:48:35] I don't know how you could have gotten but we have seen kind of evidence of what seems like she is although we can't be sure we can't be sure you never know what you either what's true or what's not right so but in their frequent dinner parties the state for the staple guests that are always there are a couple named the man's pier and his wife or girlfriend is Matilde and.

[00:49:00] We see that Pierre is very close to end the character van and this is like there's even one scene where she's so frustrated at her husband and him being closed off that she's crying on his shoulder and it's like a little creepy like it's not in my I don't know maybe it's French culture whatever to like hug and wipe the tears and kiss your hand like you're just a friend but it does make it seem like hey something might be going on and we learn just in the next scene that she had turned off her phone.

[00:49:28] During that but again we don't we can't be sure the couples definitely seem to be very good friends but it's again one of these things where everybody has something that they're refusing to fess up to or to recognize in a way that is like you know in escalating ways so frustrating I don't know should we go through the movie a little bit.

[00:49:46] Yeah I'm thinking like the ultimate example of that is when he kills himself in front of George and George is responsible as to go see like two movies.

[00:49:56] Paralyze yeah yeah because let's go through it a little bit because this movie is primarily a mystery psychological thriller and that's what's motivating the viewing of it the whole time like it's a you're just like trying really hard to solve with the facts that you're given.

[00:50:13] You see the first shot and it's and it's just of the outside of their house during the day and you see them sort of like what could this be and they're trying to come up with theories is it prayer row and his friends playing a practical joke on his bougie parents or is it what is it

[00:50:27] and the camera is somewhere like I think Dave and I might disagree about this like it seems some it seems very unrealistic that this camera is an actual camera within the reality of the movie because it's not totally clear where it could be placed right and we don't get until later in the movie perhaps we don't get a shot of where the camera is supposed to be right it's down it's it's clearly sort of off.

[00:50:54] Slightly off center in the middle of a street but one of the things that that makes it unclear is the character clearly walks right past the camera without noticing it right so it can't.

[00:51:05] So if it is there it would have to be somewhere oriented somewhere in a who knows how it would be hidden but but it would be sticking out of the street like my theory is it's plausible that it could be embedded within one of the like flower pots that are attached to the side of the building but who knows but it's yeah it's not at all obvious.

[00:51:25] It's not obvious and that's true with a lot of the shots that come now so but then so that the second one where you see George walk right by the camera you then get this very quick flashback which is you know and you don't know what it is because you know nothing about my feet at this point it's just a boy with blood coming out of his mouth.

[00:51:46] Little little boy shirt off curly hair blood like coughing up blood coughing up blood and then you see them trying to come up with a theory of what it of what happened.

[00:51:58] You know by the way one of the things that I don't know if this is on purpose but you were saying that the that the director wouldn't put something in by mistake but that the street is rude the iris iris yeah which is part of your eye.

[00:52:13] The street that the camera is on is like an eye that's watching.

[00:52:18] Yeah we see we do see we don't know if it's a flashback a memory a dream of this kid we see a second time with coughing up blood for slightly longer then yeah I was just gonna say I don't know if this is the right that the son gets a postcard delivered to his school and when the father goes to pick him up.

[00:52:42] Which in by the way is in a scene where it's like a fixed shot outside of the school so you're like oh shit is this another surveillance tape.

[00:52:49] But then it sort of starts moving as if it were like on a on a dolly and you realize that it is either a surveillance tape or the director just giving you an exterior shot of the father picking up his son at school which he doesn't normally do they're talking chit chatting and the son says oh by the way I got this at school and he pulled out this postcard and it's a postcard address to the father.

[00:53:12] And it's like a postcard address to his son.

[00:53:15] And it says you know to Piero from like on behalf of your father like from your father yeah and it's a not it's a picture of a drawing of the kid in the very same style with blood coming out of his mouth he's like why would you send this to me which of course is now teacher is wondering why would yeah yeah yeah so now like

[00:53:33] you're like your father your kid is now getting these things right you're like now involving you're involving my family now but you see like there's so the way that scene opens actually like the kid is surprised that his dad is coming to pick him up it's clearly something that he doesn't normally do and the

[00:53:48] dad says to him hey look I want to talk to you like now because your mom's not here there's there's some stuff I want to talk about and then the kids like okay and and then he says oh wait by the way what's the deal with this card.

[00:54:01] Yeah and then we never know what George was planning to say to to pier so like what do you think he was trying to say I assumed that he was going to tell him hey we've been getting these creepy things like.

[00:54:16] So if this is if this is you and your friends let me know maybe because the husband and wife here George and Anne had talked about maybe talking to because but the other thing he could have said I mean for all we know he might have been saying look your mother.

[00:54:31] And I are going through some shit maybe he does know like it's never clear whether he knows if Juliet be no she's having an affair it's never clear whether she even it like that that that she is or whether but nothing that George does suggest that he knows and we really just have no idea.

[00:54:50] We have no idea I if I had a guess I would say that George doesn't know it seems to me that this is all hidden.

[00:54:57] We don't know what's true what to believe what's not there's all it's a tantalizing movie in throwing you a lot of you know suggestions but like very little gets confirmed like in up to an including like did he have tuberculosis right what else is going on between my G to and when they were right so should we talk about because we haven't said that when he finally tells

[00:55:24] and what his theory is he says well look I think it's this kid Majid who I grew up with and he finally when he's forthcoming says I told lies about him this is crucial kind of because he says I told lies about him.

[00:55:39] And then and then he says I saw him coughing up blood and I told my parents and the doctor came but didn't find anything that old fool and then he says and then I told this lie about him where I told him my dad was a doctor.

[00:55:54] My dad wanted him to kill the rooster in the farm because it was like a nasty you know had a nasty personality so he chopped its head off but in reality and then he in reality though like the father had never said anything like that.

[00:56:08] And so that part he admits is a lie the first part that he says that he saw him coughing up blood he doesn't frame it as something that he lied about and and so if he's having flashbacks or memories of the kid actually coughing up blood is very possible that in fact he was sick

[00:56:22] but that wasn't part of the line. There's also a suggestion that Majid may have like kicked his ass a few times you know like and that he was physically intimidated by Majid.

[00:56:34] That's right one of the things that Majid says is a comment about his nose and when he says that he makes a fist but it's a great sort of like use of that the actor who portrays George does have like this a nose that's very big and looks like it was broken at some point.

[00:56:50] And punchable. Yeah. Yeah. And but you he's very convincing in denying that he's behind the tapes. Yeah.

[00:57:01] In fact, if it's so convincing that it's to me not a plausible theory like I don't think that that it would ever be a plausible theory that Majid was actually behind the tapes if it if that's if that's the truth then it was very poorly done but like I think the director is very clear that

[00:57:17] Majid is this sweet old man like he's not old but he's very very sweet like humbly appearing you know he lives in as you're pointing out not you know he lives in what is obviously where poor people live like yeah.

[00:57:29] Not the projects in that it looks and working class. Yeah, really doesn't seem like there's a lot of drug dealing or whatever around it but it's not like the high rises in the wire but it's like and it's very much in stark contrast to the house that

[00:57:45] George and and live in and yeah and so they have this exchange and there's an interesting little dynamic where even though George suspects that Majid is behind the tapes. He uses the French V with him, whereas Majid uses the more familiar to you.

[00:58:05] And that's and and you know they they have a little exchange about that and but he denies it.

[00:58:13] George starts to kind of threaten him and you sort of even though you don't like George you sort of understand where he's coming from now because it really does seem like Majid is the only person. We don't know about the son yet.

[00:58:26] So it seems like Majid is the only person who could be like, who gali into these memories to to harass him like this. But still he's doing it in a way that's very disrespectful.

[00:58:38] It's there's at no point are you on his side and Majid by contrast you sort of you believe him that you come out of that.

[00:58:46] George just then goes home and his wife says well what happened you went to this house of this person you won't tell me who it is. And George says yeah nobody was there. Yeah, I went you know knocked nobody was there.

[00:58:59] And what like actually let's pause and talk about this. Why won't he tell his wife. Well, so I think that he seems to have a lot of shame and guilt about these events.

[00:59:09] And I don't think he's dealing rationally with it but one of the ways that he's dealing with it is by being super reluctant to release any information like he's just like sort of only at the points where he has to does he reveal anything.

[00:59:21] And I think that he doesn't want to think about himself or his wife to think about him of him.

[00:59:28] And he's just shutting down from like being able to feel any guilt and shame is just pushing it away so much that it's making him want to deny deny deny. Exactly. And like, yeah, just talking about it would be like admitting that it happened again.

[00:59:45] Very strong parallel with the French who I who just didn't really acknowledge that it happened. The Paris massacre happened until like 30 years 35 years and even then it was like 30 something people may have died and so like, so so the parallels are there with that.

[01:00:04] Unfortunately, sometimes like that comes back to bite you in the ass. And what we get the next recorded videotape that we get is of George talking to to Majid and then in a very heartbreaking scene.

[01:00:22] Majid is a really, you know, he's like so poignantly portrayed by this actor just breaks down and starts crying. And so you see that he was keeping a lot of stuff in being formally kind of polite with.

[01:00:36] Yeah, I don't know if the way you said it made it clear what the next videotape they get is of that scene that we just saw.

[01:00:45] But that video recording continues even after George leaves and we see him just break down and cry and this and and don't we come in where and is watching it. Yeah, yeah. Exactly.

[01:00:57] So you know as you're watching it that that no not at first, I think at first you just know that it's a tape because it is at this angle. We just saw the scene and we saw it from a different perspective.

[01:01:08] We're seeing it from the back of the kitchen so clearly there's a camera static camera somewhere in the back.

[01:01:12] But like with the street, it's not exactly it's not that it's impossible that it could be somewhere, but it's not clear where and it's and it's surprising if there was really a camera there that you know, that the father wouldn't know about it. Right.

[01:01:27] Usually if you want to portray that there's a surveillance camera and you're watching surveillance footage, you would have something where it would be. You would even maybe even suppose it's hidden in a plant.

[01:01:36] You would maybe show the edges of the plant sort of, you know, getting into the frame or you would show what very commonly is the location of a secure camera which is at the top corner of the house and you would get that angle.

[01:01:49] No, we're getting the angle that a director might choose right to shoot a scene. Exactly. Yeah. And it seems like it might be floating in the air or something like that but somehow invisible.

[01:02:01] We skipped over a scene which I think is really important and it relates to this of George going to his childhood home.

[01:02:07] The home where he grew up and where this happened with Majid when they were six years old and he brings up, you know, George said I had a dream about Majid and the mother at first is like, Who? Who? I don't know who that is.

[01:02:22] He said Majid remember the adopted child? So the kid that you guys were planning to adopt. Yeah, exactly.

[01:02:27] And then she said and then finally but she they do that little game that's repeated throughout the movie of one person being like, come on just let's can we talk about this?

[01:02:37] Like I know that you know something and if there's no reason for you not to just admit it and for us to have this conversation. But the mother eventually says like, yes, I remember but I, you know, it's a long time ago and it's not a happy memory.

[01:02:53] Yeah. And she has a bunch of lines just she's very sick right now something George didn't know. No, like clearly you get you get the impression that he hasn't visited her very like very often at all.

[01:03:05] The house that he grew up in is the house of an affluent family. Yeah. Right? Like it's a referred to as the estate by Majid and the only mention of any communication between him and his mom is, oh since the last time we talked on the phone,

[01:03:22] you know, I've had all this happen. And so you get the sense that this guy is not a good son like his mom's sick. He doesn't even know there's a woman working for her like her like a live in nurse. He didn't even know that she existed.

[01:03:35] Like she's kind of bed bound. They have this interesting exchange where he says aren't you lonely? Yeah. She says are you not because you can't go because you can't go outside because you can't go into the garden or because you can't go on the subway.

[01:03:48] Aren't you like are you any less lonely when you're out there? Yeah. So there's that it's kind of like you're walling yourself up from even when you're interacting with people. That doesn't mean you're not lonely.

[01:03:59] And then she also says and you know I have the TV that I can just watch and when it starts to bother me, I turn it off. Yeah. That's my family. Those are my friends. Whenever they bother me, I turn them off. I turn them off.

[01:04:10] I turn it off and it's like that's kind of the life that he's living both when because there's a lot of times where friends are over and they're asked to leave. You know, like there's a bunch of scenes like that. That's right.

[01:04:20] And then they just say that where there are friends that are over and then they have to leave because they don't feel like dealing with them. But I think it's also like, you know, I remember what I want to remember.

[01:04:29] So as you said, it's very clear that there are only a couple of people in the world who would know enough to be doing this to sending these postcards. One of them is Majid. And we know like we've seen the camera in his apartment.

[01:04:47] Somebody has access to Majid's apartment. The only other person is his mom. So that's why he, you know, it motivates him to visit his mom, but he still visits her under the pretense of like going to some work thing. Yeah.

[01:04:59] Like just gone there because he's so shook about like what's happening that he wants to talk to the only, you know, other person who might know. So we've seen him receive tapes. We saw his kid receive a postcard.

[01:05:12] And there's a scene where he goes into meet with what must be a network executive from the public television station where they're talking about like the future of his show or maybe a new show. It was unclear to me. Yeah.

[01:05:23] And he says, but really the reason I called you in is because there's something pretty disturbing that we got. We received a videotape and normally my secretary, you know, she would look at them and throw them away.

[01:05:35] But this one was something that she called me in to look at. And it was of you having a conversation with this man in his apartment, which so it's clearly a cop. We've seen already. Yeah. His conversation with Majid where he's accusing Majid of like doing all this.

[01:05:49] He's getting very angry. Majid is very, you know, docile and just clearly says I love your mother. And, you know, why would I do this to you? Like I have nothing. I don't need anything from you. What would I want? Money? Like I don't.

[01:06:02] And then he breaks down crying. So the exact tip we've seen. The executive is like, I don't want this getting out.

[01:06:07] You know, somebody could blackmail you with this and he's like, yeah, because clearly I was the one getting upset on the tape, you know, like even though he tells him the story.

[01:06:14] He's like, well, look, man, I'm really sorry that you had to be involved, but I'm getting like threatened by this guy and his, you know, trying to like stalk my family. And the network sex like, oh, that sucks, man.

[01:06:25] You know, like it doesn't seem though that like he was really mad at you. It seemed like, yeah, I know. I know. I know I was the one who looks bad in this like.

[01:06:32] And you get a little bit of a sense that this might be just the thing they need to get rid of him. Right.

[01:06:38] Or except that he does do good numbers and it seems to like, you know, that show has high ratings, whatever that means for this French TV show. But like as he's leaving, he says, oh, could I get the tape?

[01:06:50] Oh, he's like, oh no, sorry, I got rid of it. And you know, I threw it away, which again leaves just a slight window open for me. We're like, he just out of the blue mentioned somebody could blackmail you with this.

[01:07:01] And now he's saying like, he got rid of the tape. Like, could have kept it. Yeah, he definitely could have kept it. And there is almost the implication that he certainly we're like George at that point. We're not sure at all.

[01:07:12] That's what happened that he destroyed the tape. Like when they're talking about what happened, George says something like, I don't know. Like, I don't know why he's doing it. Like he has some sort of pathological hatred for my family, I guess.

[01:07:24] But we already know at this point that there's a lot more to it than that. And in the JPs, like your mother is such a wonderful sweet woman. Like, you know, he just like not displaying pathological hatred at all. Exactly.

[01:07:36] And so like this network as you like alluded to is not buying George's story. And he knows nothing about any of this except the videotape. But like, so George is in this position where like nobody's buying even when he

[01:07:51] tries to be forthcoming or like at least pretends to be forthcoming about it. It's just people aren't buying. Yeah. He just seems like he just has a punchable face and a lying attitude. Like it just seems like he's hiding something. And everybody does. Yeah.

[01:08:06] So did we take a break from like the plot stuff and just get out of the way? But really before you say that, just like one thing. Majid says, I heard your mother sick. Yes. And in their first interaction.

[01:08:23] There is if this man has been estranged from, you know, if six, if the last time they had any interaction with each other is when the kid was six years old and he was taken from the family.

[01:08:34] And he lives in a completely different world as we've seen from where he lives. There's no way that he would know that his mom's been sick. He didn't even know until he went to visit her. And he went right from the mom's house to Majid. To Majid.

[01:08:48] The next scene is that first interaction. Yeah. How would Majid know? Yeah. It's it's it was a weird sort of reveal that he didn't even pick up on, right? He didn't say like what? Like, no, he did.

[01:09:00] He asks him and then Majid says it's not hard to guess. Yeah, that's weird. Very weird. Yeah. What does that mean? It's not hard to guess just because I guess it could be. Because you're such a fucker that like, of course your mom's probably sick.

[01:09:12] Like you've driven her to illness or yeah, maybe because of her age. We keep teasing what we're going to say. But if Dave was like, did we talk about it and then made a throat slitting? I mentioned that it happened.

[01:09:25] But the actual shot of that from the same angle as their first conversation in Majid's house. This is after like they've been, well, we didn't even mention that. Right. This is like we're, we're, we got cocky, I think when we thought we could just watch

[01:09:44] the movie and just come talk about it with no organization. Sometimes at least like put notes and stuff. Right. You mentioned that, that, that Piero is one of the things he does, you know,

[01:09:55] one of the things he did is like go to a friend's house without telling his parents and that the police came. So after that happened when they don't know where their son is, of course their first suspicion is that it must be the Arabs.

[01:10:07] So like they call the police, the police go to the apartment, round up Majid and his son, you know, arrest them presumably or at least take them in for questioning. So George is riding in the front of the police truck.

[01:10:18] They're, you know, in the back like probably caught. It's like privilege as you said. When we were watching it. They released them though because there's absolutely no evidence. Well, no, they don't release them right away. That's right.

[01:10:28] They, so they release them the next day because they get understandably pissed that they were called in for something they didn't do. We don't see their reaction. All we see is them riding the back of the truck, but we later find out they were agitated.

[01:10:39] Speaking of amazing shots, them in the back of the truck, there's just the dark, it's a nighttime shot. Very slow pans. And it's after this that Majid calls, he's at work again, he's invading every part of George's life. And he says come over to my house.

[01:11:01] I want to talk to you. So George goes, he says, I think just two things to him. He says number one, I didn't, I don't know anything about the tapes. I had no idea about this. I had no idea about the tapes.

[01:11:13] And he says, I want you to be present. And then he in one just quick motion, slits his throat, like pulls a knife out of his, what looks like one of those barber razors like unfolds it and just yeah, but in like,

[01:11:27] yeah, like a half a second, all of those things are done. And there is this arterial spray up against the wall, just red. He immediately slumps over and we were just watching it again on this TV, you couldn't hear well, but like what you hear is

[01:11:42] the gurgling sounds of him as he's probably choking on his own blood that's coming through this, which we didn't talk about. But later on when he says he died right away, I'm like, you know what? He looked like he was actually like gurgling. Like a little bit. Yeah.

[01:11:58] Yeah. I mean, I couldn't tell. Again, it's another one of those things where it's not fully clear because the sound it's like you get it as I think we're like a lot of this from George's perspective, like it's kind of muted.

[01:12:09] Like he's so like freaked out by that just happening right in front of him and like the sounds are kind of muffled about like what's happening. But so yeah, so, so. So were you going to bring up the last scene before we put our cards on the table?

[01:12:26] Yeah. So okay. Well, I guess, yeah, right. So the last scene which I missed the first time, I think like, I don't know, maybe 30% of the audience might miss it because I never saw this in the theater. I saw it for the first time.

[01:12:37] I don't know about five years after it came out. It's from 2006 is just a static shot from the same kind of angle that we've seen of the school. The same exact angle, I think is when, when he picks them

[01:12:49] up from the, that when at first when he picks them up. And it's yeah, it's a static camera as most, but not all of these of the recorded videos are. Yeah. And you see the son of Majid who never named. He's never named.

[01:13:06] Yeah, he has no name and, and Pierrot who's considerably younger than him at the sun is looks like he's about 18, right? 18 or 19. Yeah. And Pierrot is 12 and they're talking and they seem like kind of an animated at first year thinking, Oh, is he intimidating? Yeah.

[01:13:25] But doesn't seem like that. He seems like they're kind of on the same page. Piero is doing a lot of nodding during it and then he leaves and it's clear, like yeah, he goes and gets them outside of the school. He goes gets them, they sort of walk,

[01:13:40] he takes them away from the group of friends he's talking to, he puts his hand on his shoulder and he's telling him something. So it's like very clear that what's happening is he has taken them to the side to communicate something to Piero

[01:13:53] like he, but we don't know what and, And they shouldn't know each other. We have no, these families, yeah. On George's own account, there has been zero contact with any of the families since they were six years old. There's no reason we should, they should know each other

[01:14:08] at all, know of each other even. Yes, right. But Piero doesn't seem surprised or like scared or in any way. So it seems like they knew each other. It seems like they've had previous interactions. Yeah. Which leads to the theory that they have worked together

[01:14:27] in some ways to send the tapes to the George and Anne, maybe as a way of like trying to force George to recognize, to acknowledge what he's done. So that could be, there's a few reasons to think this is true.

[01:14:44] Number one, like who else could it be who had access to Majid's house besides the son? The other thing is there's this weird scene, which we haven't mentioned yet at a dinner party where somebody knocks on the door. George goes out to try to see who it is.

[01:15:02] And when he comes back, there's a videotape like in the, what seems like the doorway. Yeah. Like when the door starts to close, it seems like it's blocked by something. So it seems like he couldn't have missed it on the way out of as you were describing before,

[01:15:16] whatever three doors he has to do to get outside. Exactly. Right. Like just like one cage after another that he has to get through. Which I think is up, is up. One possibility is that, you know, as they were having a dinner party and he gets taken away

[01:15:30] by the door buzzing, it's conceivable that Majid's son brings the doorbell, Piero runs down, drops it and when he comes back, he's already back up in his room because there's enough time for that to happen. So that's the, it's really them or something more post-modern. Right?

[01:15:48] Like so because it's not, it's not like it's ant. Like it can't be anybody else besides. That's right. And that more post-modern possibility is something that a few, like a few critics have written this possibility where it's like, I don't know how you're going to say it,

[01:16:06] the director who has sent the tapes are, the tapes don't matter. They'll just say like, well the tapes don't matter. Like what matters is that he's confronting his, you know, this past. But the tapes matter. Like if you're, to me, like I resist this because

[01:16:20] the director has made a psychological thriller with a mystery built into it. I'm fine with there being no clear answer, which might be the very thing that he wants, but I'm not comfortable with the thought that there was no answer in the director's mind and that

[01:16:34] he just used the structure of a psychological thriller to make some broader point. But so then the only person it could be then is Majid San and Piero. And that's unsatisfying on a couple levels also. Number one, it's a very elaborate and perfectly executed

[01:16:54] like plan in terms of like the shots in terms of just getting him to find the apartment in the first place, but making it kind of also difficult. So it's a little hard to make out street signs as they're, as they're driving. Like it has done so well.

[01:17:09] And in the end, it's a 17 year old and an 18 year old and a 12 year old that don't fuck up at any point. Also, what's their motivation? Well, okay. So there is a final confrontation after Majid Suicide where Majid San goes and confronts Georges in the, at his work.

[01:17:27] It's a great scene where he's like, I want to talk to you. He's like, I don't have time. I don't have time. He's like, no, I really need to talk to you. He's like, sorry, he gets in an elevator. He gets in that elevator with him.

[01:17:36] And there's this just long sort of tense moment where he's just waiting for Georges to get off the elevator. Somebody comes in, they're looking at each other. You can see Georges looking back at him in the mirror. You see Majid San looking at him.

[01:17:51] A lot of mirrors in the movie. A lot of mirrors in the movie. Yeah. And so he follows him off the elevator says we need to talk about what happened. And he's like, I'm not going to talk to you. Stop, stop bothering me and my family.

[01:18:02] He's like, well, if you don't talk to me now, I'm going to go in and make a scene. Like this is, this is full George just saying I'm not going to, you are not going to get me to feel any responsibility.

[01:18:16] So like I wrote down a couple of the lines. He says, I refuse to be incriminated by you. You'll never get me to feel responsible. What do you want an apology? This is so inappropriate. The guy's dad has just killed himself. Right.

[01:18:31] And you won't even give him five fucking minutes of your time. And you were there. And he's like preemptively saying, like, do you want me to feel incriminated? The Majid only says at the end, like I wanted to know what it was

[01:18:43] like to have a man's life on your conscience. Now I know that's what Majid said. Majid son. Majid son says to George say that line again. I wanted you to know. I wanted to know what it felt like to have a man's life on your conscience. Yeah.

[01:18:57] And now I know because I want to get back to that. Yeah. The other, like I thought thing that was very interesting about this scene is there's two moments where the sun is making like a conscious decision to enter somewhere that he doesn't belong.

[01:19:14] The first is the elevator, which you mentioned and you see him for a second pause and then go into the elevator. And then afterwards, which you also mentioned, but like George is still trying to brush him off after they've had

[01:19:26] that awkward elevator scene and then just kind of walks into his, uh, uh, into his, his kind of common office with everybody there. They're glass doors. Yeah. So he sees him going in and like, you know, taking his calls or whatever.

[01:19:40] And that he literally is like, it's literally like maybe a second or two seconds of him pausing. But in those two seconds, you just see his resolve. Like he is like built up his will to enter. And this is the, this is George's worst nightmare is

[01:19:54] that like his spaces are getting invaded. Like, and everyone can see, everyone can see how he's behaving. But then, you know, the point I wanted to highlight here is the sun is also making these decisions to go somewhere where he doesn't feel comfortable.

[01:20:10] Um, and, and, and he's doing it anyway. Like he's going to do it. He's going to do put like no stone unturned into at least trying to get George to fess up some degree of responsibility for what happened and then just realizes at the end, it's not happening.

[01:20:28] Yeah. Like I don't want anything from you. I guess I don't want anything. Yeah. I got like, I now know the answer. Yeah. Um, you, you pointing out that this is his nightmare of somebody invading his space, especially the other, right?

[01:20:41] Which is very strongly the, the, the feel of this is very much the other, the Algerian other, the poor other in my life. You pointed out to me, I don't actually don't remember if you said it clearly in this conversation, the books

[01:20:55] that serve as the background to the dinner table, the fake books that serve as the background to the, the scenery, the backdrop of the show. Yeah. The vertical lines in the office of the network exec, the, the, etched in the window that kind of look like books.

[01:21:12] The vertical lines throughout wherever he lives are like bars. Yeah. Right? And I think that these prison bars that are keeping people out the, the threat of the other. There is this comfort that he has in his books.

[01:21:29] Like you can, but you can really be so proud of a book and on his show, I'm sure he has all these intellectual discussions about like these things like the, you know, globalization, but he can't confront it in his own life.

[01:21:39] Like he can't, it's like just very much he has created this intellectual wall around him. Right? And even he's the editor of his own show. Yeah. And he's got to have control over like his product. And so, and he's losing control. Yeah.

[01:21:54] He's losing control over being able to edit out like the, like the mom. Right. You know, like I can't, I can just turn it off, tune it out whenever it becomes too uncomfortable for me, but not anymore. Right. There's this great juxtaposition to with the,

[01:22:08] you know, when he's in the video control room telling the editor, okay, at this time stamp, I want you to cut this part out to splice it from here to where he starts saying this. And so, you know, so as we do on this podcast even

[01:22:21] the juxtaposition between that and the surveillance footage where it's so, he has so little control over it that there is, you would obviously edit out all of the boring parts where people are walking by. But do you remember there's a scene where he

[01:22:36] just stops watching it and she's like, no, like they're like, keep it on. He doesn't want to see it. Those unedited videos are reality. And he can't handle that, like that reality. Exactly. Like he is trying to remember things his own way.

[01:22:52] He's trying to edit his memories, edit his life, his feeling of complicity, his feeling of response. He's editing all that stuff out and all that stuff is just flooding into his life and every aspect of his life, his professional life,

[01:23:06] his kid, his marriage and he can't keep it out and he's trying. In one of the last scenes is he comes home early from work, broad daylight. He calls his wife who's at work. So it must be before five o'clock.

[01:23:19] He's gotten home and he goes and takes two sleeping pills and calls his wife says, I'm home early from work. I'm just going to sleep. He goes into his room, you know, like draws these, those like blackout, clearly like blackout curtains and just like goes to sleep.

[01:23:39] That is him. He's like, well, I can't edit. I'm just going to like read black. But I'm going to edit by, by like not, you know, not even dreaming probably like I'm going to take those pills, you know, not because not not dreaming because it's after

[01:23:53] he does that, that well, I think he's trying to not dream. I think he's trying to fill. So like just yeah, I just don't want to think about this. Yeah. And it doesn't seem like a dream actually. Yeah. You get the static shot which is just so heartbreaking.

[01:24:07] This is the hardest part for me to watch this. I mean, you see a static shot of what you presume is the past of the estate of Majid being taken away by people who are being rough with Majid and not really caring at all.

[01:24:23] And you see the mother, presumably the mother, you know, being very upset and being led into the house so she doesn't have to watch it anymore. So she doesn't have to. It kind of seems like it's maybe from young George George's perspective in the barn.

[01:24:40] But we don't know for sure. And then there's this tantalizing thing where Majid is yelling. He's like, I don't want to be taken away. And they're being rough with it. Physically grabbing him and putting him. It's like, you know, it's like the

[01:24:53] men in white coming, but wherever it's like a man or woman who clearly have come to take him to a home. Six year old kid. Yeah. And then like it's and it's heartbreaking. And then there's this weird tantalizing clue, although I don't know what it suggests necessarily,

[01:25:04] but the soundtrack of the birds. And I actually noticed this. The, I guess my first rewatch when I watched it with Eliza before I did this for my class. It is the same birds that are in the opening shot. And it's that same style.

[01:25:19] The sound of the birds chirping. The birds chirping in the opening videotape. So it's the same. It's the same thing with just occasionally a kid screaming like I don't want to go and an occasional chicken at the end. But so that's weird. Yeah. Right.

[01:25:36] So it's like, it's not clear what to make of that. Right. Right. My theory is that the sound designers got lazy and they're like, oh, you need birds? I have a bird track already. Yeah. It happens to be the exact one that

[01:25:49] we used in the open of the movie. Now I'm curious. Now I want to line up the two soundtracks and see if they actually line up perfectly. Like. I think they do. Yeah. I was paying attention to it again this time. I noticed it the first time.

[01:26:01] So the postmodern, like Dave was shitting on the postmodern take and I actually think that there are better and worse versions of the postmodern take. But like there are just as many clues that it could be that, like or tantalizing like suggestions,

[01:26:16] like the sort of, it seems like if not impossible, very difficult locations of the camera in all the tapes. Like it does kind of seem like these things are almost magically appearing. Yeah. They're amazing quality. Yeah. Exactly. So there was a couple of things

[01:26:34] that I wanted to say about Majid's son when he confronts George at work. One is you had said something about like really like this 17 or 18 year old kid is getting away with this perfect, like this perfect plan. I think in fact that it goes terribly awry.

[01:26:51] I think that one possibility is that he has been bitter. His, you know, you can imagine him like his father's not bitter at all, but he starts harboring resentment. You mean we could have had this where we were also raised with like rich, you know, upper class people.

[01:27:06] This fuckers on TV and like I'm living in this little apartment with my dad. He hatches this plot. Let's leave Pirro aside for a minute. He hatches this plot to psychologically sort of torture. Who knows to what end maybe just the impulsive sort of like

[01:27:24] revenge that you might have when you're 17, 18. Or just a demand that you don't forget it. Yeah, or that you face up to it in some way. Where the plan goes arise is father kills himself. And I think that's the that is one of the reasons that he's

[01:27:44] so upset about this when he confronts George. And the reason I asked you to repeat that line is because on the second watching when he says, I just wanted to know what it feels like to have a man's life in your to have caused a man to die.

[01:27:58] And you know, I know that he's going to die. He's going to die. And the reason I asked you to meet him is because of his father's suicide. And I was like, I don't know if you could remember the man's life on your now I know.

[01:28:14] I could read that also as him dealing with his own guilt for having done this stupid plan and ended up having his father commit suicide because of it. But it doesn't make sense in the first place to confront George at all to know what it felt like

[01:28:30] to have a man's life on your conscious. No, but and I definitely think that like the primary reason for him saying that is to confront George, but I can't help but think that he is one. He's not I don't put his denial of sending the video tapes isn't

[01:28:47] that convincing, not nearly as convincing as Majid. And I think that he is dealing with guilt in this scene as the reason that this all happened. I think that he realizes that his actions like led to his father dying. And so when he says that

[01:29:04] I could almost see it as something that you say that comes out of your mouth. And then you're like, oh, I guess now I know too. Yeah, right? Where would you know maybe yes, I guess when I said perfectly executed, I mean obviously he didn't want his

[01:29:17] dad to kill himself in front of George. But technically or at all, yeah, or at all, yeah, technically like the perfect. Yeah, the videotapes is like as a form of psychological torment that and just the yeah, the placement of the video camera, the placement

[01:29:33] of the tapes, then pierrot who presumably is in on it is like what's the deal with this card? Like, yeah, I mean how like with this theory, how do you make sense of pierrot? So there are two things that the all of the sort of

[01:29:50] articles online that I read which all of my pro for something don't mention one, the mother just not showing up for breakfast to the confrontation of Pierrot to his mother for having an affair with Pierre. I think that one of the possibilities is they're

[01:30:10] involved in the scheme with videotaping the family. He at some point sees actual videotaped evidence of his mom having an affair and is so distressed by it that he leaves and goes to his friend's house and doesn't want to like talk to his mom much

[01:30:26] like, you know, the non confrontation of his father when he comes back and confronts his mom and his mom is like, no, why would you think that? He's not convinced at all. Like he's upset up until the very end and he seems to me

[01:30:37] like to know for sure that his mom is having an affair and I think that the reason the way that he found out is because Majid's son said showed him the videotape. Right, right, right. So he would have already been in on it but like he didn't

[01:30:50] realize this was like collateral damage he was finding out. Yeah, that or that's how you brought him in. Right, I was thinking that. He showed him the videos I did. He's very cold with his mother and very accusatory and that's where Anne has her moment of

[01:31:01] like, oh, what do you mean? I can't believe you'd say that. He's just a friend. He's a friend of both your father and my father. That's absurd and which George uses that same line. It's absurd like that he keeps blaming me. Majid keeps blaming me for

[01:31:16] what I did. There's a scene after that where Piero is talking to his dad. This is also afterwards and the dad isn't being like, Julia Pinoche, he's not saying like, what's wrong with you? Why didn't you? He's just saying I'm glad you're home. I love you.

[01:31:35] And it seems like he seems like he's like, I love you. He seems almost kindly to his dad for sure. That is not somebody who would be sending these tapes and putting his dad through this kind of torment if they had that relationship.

[01:31:48] But it could be that if the kid is in on it and he's really kind of anti his dad, that he's fucking with his dad at that point. He was still very distant from his dad. Like the dad's clearly sort of being even like kind of an

[01:32:00] incompetent father at this point. But going more nice about it than he normally would be. Yeah, yeah. It's very possible that he's involved in this plan. He's not quite clear like the emotional, the real emotional consequences of doing this might be. And through it, he finds out

[01:32:17] that his mom is cheating. That's why he's being kind of nice to his dad. Like he feels bad. Yeah. And so he's sort of nice to his dad even though he was sort of like involved in this. But there's another thing we haven't talked about which is

[01:32:29] Piero, the son is like a swimmer and there are all these scenes of like going to swim meets. And there's even one where his parents are super proud because he wins one of the races. In the middle of their biggest fight too. Yeah. They're like hugging each other

[01:32:44] because their son won this one. There's like extended scenes of the coach telling him, no, you're like, you can't breathe while you're doing your turn around. I bet if we analyze those what that coach is saying when you turn around, it's all like reverse.

[01:32:58] They keep, it's just like them being about, I don't know, 15 feet from the wall of the pool and practicing their turn. So it's just kind of going back and forth, back and forth and the coaches coaching them on that. I bet because so many scenes in

[01:33:13] this movie even when they're not talking about the main thing they're talking about. Right, right. You know? And like I bet that's like that too. But they're shot. It's like the most surreal kind of aspect of the movie just with the colors and the slow

[01:33:28] tracking shots of the kids in that race. They have no connection, obvious plot connection at least. And even obvious thematic connections with the rest of the movie. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like there has to be a reason that we just don't know yet.

[01:33:48] But this is why I think, I think the interpretation I'm leaning towards which is that these tapes are a projection of George's guilt that's just been pressed down and denied and it's just breaking through and this is the way that it's breaking through is through

[01:34:07] these video tapes which obviously is impossible in one sense. We're getting so much of this from George's perspective. That's why I think like, you know, the stuff with Julia Pinoche and her affair it's like all these things are bubbling up to the surface and George

[01:34:22] is keeping them down at a conscious, you know, consciously trying to keep them down but they're breaking through and there's so many scenes of either going or not going into places where they don't belong because of like class stratification. There's even like that kind

[01:34:37] of parallel to the sun. I was thinking this when we're talking about it. The sun making the decision to go into the office or into the elevator, Majid's son. There's a parallel when Pierrot finally comes home there's a mother and she's clearly like a working mother,

[01:34:55] single mother with this. When he finally gets back after this whole disappearance. In the morning. And so the mother of this friend of Pierrot drives him home and they have this conversation, her and Julia Pinoche on the threshold of their entryway into their

[01:35:13] house and we don't know anything about this mother, but she's working nights. She does. You can't afford like to keep tabs on her kid. She's very apologetic. She's wearing clothes that aren't like the ones that Julia Pinoche wears. Julia Pinoche wears and Julia Pinoche keeps asking her

[01:35:28] into the house. Like come in. She's actually being really nice and she keeps refusing. That's good. That's a good. Yeah, yeah. Because she knows her place. Yeah. And she doesn't like and this is and that's what I think like that's exactly what the Smudgy son doesn't do at

[01:35:43] the end. He goes, he knows that it's not his place to go into that elevator or to go into this like public television, you know, like offices, but he's doing it. Whereas this woman is keeping her place in spite of like maybe maybe fake, but not

[01:35:57] obviously fake kind of in treaties to come in. Yeah. I think and Julia Pinoche is being genuine, but I think it's one of these things we're like, especially when you're the lower class person is like aware of the weirdness and the rules more than like

[01:36:13] the person who's in power is right because I can afford to be kind of oblivious. It's not a sympathetic to be oblivious. Exactly. There's, you know, when at the end when he comes back from after the confrontation with the machine son when he

[01:36:27] chose to go in and say, you know, call him out. This is like I'm like 10 percent convinced of this, but when he gets home early and goes takes two sleeping pills and goes to sleep, I like, I think he might have gotten in trouble at work.

[01:36:42] Like I think that actually like somebody put two and two together. They're like, oh, this kid. Yeah. That father committed suicide. There's this tape of him like, you know, being angry at him and like it's very possible network executive was like, yeah, buddy, we can't have you

[01:36:56] on this show anymore. Because yeah, they're at a transitional place where I guess his show has to be renewed and had the decision hasn't been made yet. He's like, but no, no, but don't worry. I'm sure it'll be happy. You know, it'll be happening.

[01:37:07] He calls his wife and he says, look, I everything's great. Like he's still kind of in denial about anything, but you're right. I think that's totally right. That's something like it makes sense that this might have been the final straw for that. Television executive. Yeah, right.

[01:37:21] I don't need. Whoa, we don't need. We're an out-of-the-art kid coming in like after his dad. Like now I'm kind of convinced he was fired. But yeah, he was told that is he was told that they're not doing show. He loves his work.

[01:37:34] Like he wouldn't come home like at three in the afternoon and take two sleeping pills. There's a scene earlier on who in the police when they're when they first go to police about the video tapes is very early on. It's like basically like if you

[01:37:45] walk, they're trying to cross the street to get to their car, but like there's a big van so you can imagine you're about to cross the street and you just walk out into the street, but your, the van was blocking your view of the traffic.

[01:37:55] You're supposed to like, you know, kind of like, like stick your neck out around to see if there's a car coming, but they don't. They walk right out and they're in a black kid on a bike almost hits them and has to like swerve really quickly.

[01:38:08] And George just gets incredibly angry at him blaming him for it. And it's obvious that the kid was just riding his bike. Like it's obvious that George should have known, but his blaming of the other for the for what was in fact his fault

[01:38:23] is like clear in that scene. Yeah. I mean, you know, like a lot of these, like I think the main plot too, it's there are two sides to it, right? Like on the one hand, I, if I almost hit somebody, even if it's their fault, I, I'm like,

[01:38:37] oh, I'm so sorry. Like, you know, cause I am the I'm on the bike and they're in there a pedestrian, even though he's getting accused, he's pretty aggressive too. So there is two sides of it, but you do, you're never on Georgia side because he's such a dick.

[01:38:52] And in fact, I think that the kid on the bike might have responded very differently if it weren't for the very first thing that comes out of his mouth is like, and he's like, I love the way he confronts me. He's like, say that again. Yeah.

[01:39:03] You know, he's like, No, right. Which is exactly the same thing with my G like he goes in with my G when he meets him the first time and he's already like accusing him. Like if he had gone in a little more humble, a little

[01:39:15] more look, I'm sorry, but, you know, maybe that could have gone. Yeah, that could have gone definitely. Absolutely. It really does, you know, the parallel that you were drawing earlier, but like at the very beginning about sort of like, you know, this this like legislating against

[01:39:30] teaching students that they should feel guilty or something. I don't think that's what they're doing, but that anger, like how dare you make me feel bad? Right. Like is exactly that attitude that George has throughout the movie. To get to the theories, I think too, like there is,

[01:39:47] it's definitely true to me that this is not an open and shut case. Like I don't even think that within the work, there are enough clues to give any answers. Right. And so I think that there is a way in which like whatever the

[01:39:59] quote unquote postmodern view is saying, the videotapes and the mystery of who's sending them is not the important part of this film. Yeah. I think that's that's right. I do think though that the power of this is that it is a plausible psychological thriller with probably

[01:40:17] like a real interpretation of an in-world events that are happening or else I would lose it. I would say like, well, there are so many ways to tell me, you know, like why would you make this really compelling mystery story if you didn't have,

[01:40:32] you know, why would you give us this tantalizing last scene where we see that the two sons know each other? Yeah. Well, right. I think it is the two sons seeing each other is just another, it's another tape. It's another example of these worlds which should be

[01:40:50] kept apart coming together. So now it's like the son and the two sons. I'm saying it's optimistic. It's optimistic. No, no, not at all. It's just more of his fear is coming true. It's like this world is I think these two themes that

[01:41:06] we've picked up on are connected. It's people staying in their place and the place of the Algerians right now is, you know, the French are going to treat them, you know, they're not going to invade their country anymore. They're not going to occupy their country anymore.

[01:41:21] But in exchange for that, you stay in your place. We don't have to like accept any kind of responsibility or face you or face up to what's happening. And all these tapes are invasions of that. That last tape on the postmodern interpretation, just

[01:41:37] that this is a projection of George is still George's like, you know, paranoid imagination of spaces being invaded again. Right, right. So, so this like it's all in Georgia, like sort of like a short. But the thing is a projection. It's not like it's in his head.

[01:41:54] A symbolic projection because like there is a plot involving his wife, like seeing the tapes as well. Like there is like, Well, that's right. That's the I think frustrating part of this theory is that what is like them going to the police and talking about them

[01:42:11] telling their friends. And I think it is very deliberately open-ended in the sense that like you said, there's not enough, there's not enough clues. But I do think like to me the most like satisfying involves the tapes being somehow in some way a projection of George's like

[01:42:29] subconscious feeling of guilt that he keeps pressing down, but that he can't press down anymore. And it's just bursting to the surface at every level of his life. Yeah, no. I mean, I think that's what it might mean. But I don't see how that

[01:42:45] could be like, I don't even get an explanation for what like the existence of the tapes in that world then. It's like, it's very to me very consistent to say, well, like the most plausible theory is that he's creating these tapes and it's just that that's what

[01:42:59] it's evoking in George. Like that's his deepest coming true. See, I just then I don't buy. I don't by the way, I don't think it's that implausible one that this this plan isn't that complex. It's like here are like four video tapes that I made

[01:43:12] and I've sent it. If you want to give instructions for how to get somewhere to go, like I said, I think that's the most possible way to get there. I think that's the most possible way to get there. And I think that's the

[01:43:22] most possible way to get there is by taking the tape. So I'm just prototyping the car ride and the walk up to the apartment is actually like very consistent with the other way that he's been communicating. So I don't think it's and I also don't think it's

[01:43:33] that implausible that the angles are the angles. Like, I just don't think like there's very you could you could hide it in the one of those potted plants like at this that right height above the cars at that angle looking into the street. If the whole theory that

[01:43:45] you're hanging it on it like that's not like that's not like why are you the fucking case obviously but what I'm saying is like if you didn't if he didn't want us to like ask like I think the thing I don't like about your explanation is

[01:43:56] you have to start thinking of the mechanics of it and then when you think of the mechanics of it, Hanakie is making it deliberately hard to imagine that this is the like this is dreamt up by the son of somebody who doesn't know them and doesn't know them.

[01:44:09] And then and then then they start to the other side because I think they're getting into them and doesn't know their personalities, but I know his dad has been telling him some stories and his dad clearly has some communication with his mom. Yes, maybe. Right. Although we don't

[01:44:27] have any evidence of that so like you do have to start putting this stuff like. The evidence is that he says that he knows his mother said. Yeah, again, but that's more easily explained by that this is some projection of George where like he now

[01:44:41] knows about his mother like another aspect that's getting. But what's the theory here that this is all like this whole series of events is just sort of like in George's mind? Well, so like, I mean it has to be that to some degree because like, you know,

[01:44:57] in real life if they were, if he started talking to his wife about a tape that didn't exist, like what the fuck are you talking about? This, this is the problem. Like it's like going into the mechanics of the post modern or the sort of non realistic interpretation

[01:45:10] isn't that fun either. Like if you're going to give it a shot, it's like almost like a possible world of what would happen? How would I react if these, if all of a sudden there were these tapes that were invading every aspect of my life going in places

[01:45:24] they didn't belong in my life. And this is like my subconscious like exploration of that. And but it's very much realistic in that this is how it would go if these tapes existed. Like we read this article that I really loved and I think I'm probably

[01:45:41] going to get a little bit out of it. I don't know if you can understand why in this interpretation, but one of the points she makes is this is like Bentham's panopticon Jeremy Bentham had this idea of a prison and he wanted to make it

[01:45:55] as efficient as possible and one of the ideas he dreamt of was this prison that's all glass and all the prisoners could be seen at all times by one like one prison guard. And it's like that onto George's life. It's like all these people are like,

[01:46:11] it's a human being. You know, that's why I like a person who loves his family and wants their children to be a part of it. And what they could have to do with it would actually be better. And it wouldÕve been more so if we had

[01:46:27] a prison guard and had a prison guard and I had a prison guard that was someone who didn't know anything about the prison. But there has been very is like the director has clearly not wanted to wrap it up in a, you know,

[01:46:46] tie, you know, what you say, like, tie a bow on it. Is that the same? Yeah, not at all. And like almost made it like impossible to come up with any consistent interpretations. Yeah. Or satisfying, I guess. Yeah. I think like the most, so the most

[01:47:01] satisfying interpretation I think is Majid Sun has something to do with it. Like that's the only one in world. It's the only in world. It's not in world. So just stay with me. Sure. And but that he is in order to not make this just a

[01:47:18] psychological thriller and to make you think about all of these other things, I think he has to make it in an imperfect plot. So because if you if audiences at the very end were like, Oh, by the way, it was him all along, and they can stop

[01:47:34] thinking about it that way. Like, you know, like a Sharon in like that Sharon Stone movie where she spread your legs. It's basically against the basic instinct. Like the last scene is the ice pick was like reveals who they're like, then you

[01:47:47] can just stop thinking about it. But in this, the last scene is the same static surveillance he shot that you have in the present world, which is like this, you know, high quality like surveillance, like looking at everything is what

[01:48:03] you're seeing from 40 years ago. Yeah. And that can't happen. Like right there's not a dream in a still dream and a still right? Like there's clearly some dream sequences where he's like sees the little

[01:48:16] boy, you know, with the blood coming out his mouth or even the other one where he sees them like the chicken. He's like beheading the rooster. Although that also starts as static, but then it turns into like, but but like he's like, you know what? It doesn't.

[01:48:29] Like I've given you a psychological thriller and a mystery about these surveillance tapes that are being used to torture this man. But what's important is the the knowledge that he has about the events in his own life and that he's being confronted with them.

[01:48:42] And so like I'm going to show you 40 years ago, a static surveillance tape of like the kid because it's all about his guilt. It's all about like his guilt in, you know, as the microcosm and then the guilt of maybe perhaps the nation is a macrocosm.

[01:48:55] But it's within this story where I think like, I guess I'm saying, I don't think it's inconsistent. Like it's like the reason that he has a scene where the sons are talking to each other is because like the director, I think had something

[01:49:04] in mind. He's like, this work of art will be like this family and these events and like I'm going to put in these clues. But I want to make it so that you still are just thinking less about

[01:49:14] like the concrete explanation and more about the that's what makes it a great work of art to me. Exactly. Like, and I think, you know, I've probably said this before, this quote that I love by David Lynch, where people are saying,

[01:49:26] you know, you like a lot of your movies don't have closure and he just kind of like, it's like closure. Everyone's always talking about closure. Close, what the fuck? Like closure is just an excuse to make you forget you saw the damn thing.

[01:49:38] Right. And that's exactly what you were saying about like if you just thought, oh, that was the that was the real killer all along or the real like taper all along, that would give you an excuse to forget the damn thing.

[01:49:50] And the whole point of this movie is don't forget your past. Like, don't forget what you just saw. Don't forget what you've experienced. Don't forget what you've done. Don't forget what your country has done. Don't don't run from your responsibility and your complicity in this kind of oppression.

[01:50:12] Sometimes like just mass curing people. Sometimes it's it's more invisible. Sometimes it's more subtle. Sometimes it's just having barriers of entry that people can't get through because of social norms face up to it, reckon with it.

[01:50:26] There may not be a perfect solution to dealing with it, but you have to at least reckon with it. And then, you know, and that's George's sin is he never does. Yeah. He refuses to.

[01:50:37] And it's not so much that like the truth will come out because like somebody it's it's not so much that it's that like the truth needs to come out. Like there is a pressure that's built up in the system where like

[01:50:50] if it comes out in the form of a psychological thriller, then so be it. That's it's just like let's make it come out. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing you were saying about closure being like an excuse to not not forget you. Yes, yes, forget you.

[01:51:01] So is reminds me of this old effect in in psychology called the zygarnik effect where the original finding was that if you gave people I think they were crossword puzzles or math problems and you didn't let them finish versus letting them finish.

[01:51:18] They were much more likely to remember the unfinished like the clues from the unfinished thing. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's just that line is perfect because it really does separate movies. Like I think we've talked about this like usual suspects.

[01:51:32] You know, when you find out that it was Kaiser, so say it's like, OK, cool, that's cool. But it's like a it's like a very different like thing. It's like, all right. Yeah, cool. Like it's spoiler. Like you can't be spoiled like there's this.

[01:51:46] Yeah, we don't know what's being spoiled. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And it's just so well like this idea, I think couldn't couldn't be more relevant. I think one thing we didn't mention is this is going on directly a rock war

[01:51:59] when and because and that's always out in the background. They never actually wreck even though that it's on a TV or something like that they're describing it. Nobody ever acknowledges that it's right. That's a good point. No one's paying attention to the TV.

[01:52:12] Yeah, as as but like the words are clear. It's not muffled in the background like that it's very the news that's being shown is very clear. It's just the characters aren't paying attention to it. Exactly.

[01:52:24] And I wish they had I wish they had subtitles for the news thing too. But it's hard because they're talking at one point they do. But most of the time they don't. It's just on and we know it.

[01:52:33] But now we're in this situation maybe much like like George and Anne where like we know the Iraq war was was just this horrifying like just invasion of a country on false pretenses. This thing that just led to hundreds of thousands of people losing their lives.

[01:52:50] We have veterans that are still like taking their own life all the time who served in Iraq or Afghanistan. And like we acknowledge it but like it's a little too painful. Like that's recent American past when you start talking about slavery

[01:53:06] and you start talking about Native Americans and you start talking like this movie is about exactly the kind of audience that would watch this movie and middle class like you know obviously like you have to be some people who do a podcast about like artistic things. Exactly.

[01:53:24] Like we are George and Anne. I'm George. I call it well. I don't know. No, I call it Anne actually. I'm Pierre man. I'm fucking your wife. I'm like fucking the way. Although I have I have better bags under my eyes.

[01:53:38] I could be Pierre and what I like about this is it's not I mean it's far from heavy handed or like in any way. But even if you conclude that this is what the director was trying to say, it's still not saying. Oh,

[01:53:57] you like evil people for having done things or you asshole or like we should do this in order to fix it or like who's in the wrong. It's just like. Wrecking with it. Just exactly. Just don't forget it. Yeah, right?

[01:54:11] Like I know that the Algerian massacre on the sand was not like my fault. Well, like are you really just never going to talk about it? You know, like are you really like the people who were affected by it still exist in this world?

[01:54:25] Like the Brigitte's son is directly feeling the effects of something that happened in whatever 1961. But like I was saying, like I have never heard of it. And you know, it's so so the frustration that you're not even going to

[01:54:42] like you're not even you're going to pretend that never even happened. Let me walk into your office and like call you out. Right. Masheed Sunnever says like, oh, this is about the Algerian massacre. It's an interpersonal conflict. But it is clearly the result of like collective responsibility

[01:54:59] for not talking about anything. You know, which is paralleled by this kind of individual responsibility. But the one that is also unclear. Let's say it's funny. Like it does seem like probably Majid was a little bit. We get hints anyway, possibly a little bit abusive, you know,

[01:55:17] as like a six year old will do. Plus George was six. Like all of a sudden there's this new kid who might be like kind of also like fighting with him that's going to live in his room.

[01:55:28] And so even if you did that jealousy, it's like you was going to be in my room. But I guess what I'm saying is like you can say, oh, yes, in one sense, like you can't be responsible for what you did when you were six.

[01:55:41] Like six year old boys aren't like moral. They don't have but so the problem is that he refuses to just recognize that it happened and he refuses to say, yes. OK, fine. There's a sense in which, you know, I'm not fully at fault

[01:55:57] because I was six years old and, you know, like this stuff was happening. But still I share just like us. Have some positive, have some false positive guilt. Exactly. Like that's what he won't do. And like that's like us.

[01:56:07] Like we can say, look, my family wasn't here when slavery occurred. Like they weren't here. They weren't even close to being here when slavery occurred. So how is this my fault? You can say that and you and it's not that that claim won't have any merit.

[01:56:21] It's just the wrong. Like this is like, yeah, this is like it all comes back to your study. Right. It's not your causal. Like the inner analysis is not like the individual cause obviously. Like it's so it's obvious.

[01:56:31] Like it's just that, you know, we can't just say like, all right, like we've moved on. Like let's stop. Like let's just like, no, like. We have to like, I don't know what when I think this movie doesn't give any answer

[01:56:42] is what you're supposed to do about it. But one thing is you at least have to face it and acknowledge it. And but yes, this is what's hard about it. It's like, OK, but then what? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you can always have an affair with sexy peer.

[01:57:01] Frenchman. Frenchman who's probably like like 38, but looks like he's like 65. Exactly. You know, the one thing that I can agree with is I remember teaching we've talked about this plenty of times on the podcast when you teach Peter Singer

[01:57:18] and you come to bring this sort of like guilt on the heads of your students and the students say, well, like, how do you deal with it? And I've said this on the podcast back in the day before, too.

[01:57:30] Like my answer would always be just like I would deal with anything. I would like pop a couple of painkillers and have a drink. Yeah, that's exactly George's way of dealing with everything that went on. He took two sleeping pills, shut the blinds and went to sleep.

[01:57:44] And I got to say a deeply can relate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I on the other hand, reckon with all the bad things that I am a part of that I am complicit in. And actually, like in the 12 step program, you're at the step

[01:57:59] where you're just going around to people who you like. Yeah, it's taking a while. Sorry, like little kids in China who made my iPhone. I don't want to think about. Just know that you're like the 15 hour days that you worked

[01:58:19] like didn't go to waste because look at this picture. I got a Montana. Worth it. All right. All right. This has probably been a scary long time. Two hours. I'm looking at the time right now. All right, join us next time on Very Bad Wizard.