Episode 215: Touch My Pink Monkey

[00:00:00] Very Bad Wizards is a podcast with a philosopher, my dad, and psychologist, David Pizarro, having an informal discussion about issues in science and ethics. Please note that the discussion contains bad words that I'm not allowed to say, and knowing my dad, some very inappropriate jokes.

[00:00:55] Welcome to Very Bad Wizards. I'm Tamler Sommers from the University of Houston, Dave from Twitter to Fox News to most state legislatures. Everyone has worked up about critical race theory. So let me ask you, how is critical race theory hurt you and your loved ones?

[00:01:31] My self-esteem has dropped dramatically since I learned that I might be white. Yeah. No, you know how it's affected me the most is that CRT in my little niche of psychology stands for cognitive reflection task. It's like a particular measure that people use a lot.

[00:01:49] And now this is meaningless. That's how it's harmed me directly. Arguably it was meaningless as a measure before. That's only because you got them all wrong. So today we are going to wade into the debate over critical race theory, I guess. Something we're both experts in.

[00:02:09] Yeah, it's a big caveat. Just remember that this is segment one because, you know, we got a little bit of flak for our loosey-goosey treatment of the lab leak theory. Which was a fucking opening question people.

[00:02:25] And they attributed to us, this was on Reddit, they attributed to us like some strong firm stance on the lab leak. What the fuck? I know one dear redditor was like did they not read this paper and then they put like a nature paper?

[00:02:40] And he's like I'm surprised they didn't mention this paper for an opening question they've been to riff about. I honestly had zero readings ever done on the lab leak theory. Which maybe is irresponsible, but it was like you said it was an opening question.

[00:02:58] I didn't even know it was going to be a segment. It was like the ghost thing also where on Reddit for the first 30 comments that's all anybody was talking about. Didn't we talk about it for like five minutes or something? I don't know.

[00:03:14] I don't even remember, but what I do remember is it's not even clear to me whether the hypothesis in my mind was an accidental leak or whether it was some malicious intent or like what the... Don't take any of that seriously. Yeah, no. Definitely not for me.

[00:03:35] I thought it was a funny opening question just because everybody was talking. Like actually I think the reason I was laughing when I came up with the idea to do which was right on the spot is because of how like uninformed we were.

[00:03:50] I thought we made that clear. That should be the real disclaimer that Liza starts the episode with. Yeah, they don't... You guys don't know what the fuck is going on. They never have.

[00:03:59] Like I said, you know I know about four things and we covered that territorial long time ago. By episode nine we had covered all the things we know and now it's all just bullshit. Right.

[00:04:11] I will say that I did do a little more reading about critical race theory and we also have something funny to talk about which I guess relates to critical race theory although I think it doesn't... The tangential relation is part of the discussion perhaps.

[00:04:28] Which is a paper called On... It sounds like one of our things that we did for Journal of Controversial Ideas, the abstract, on having whiteness. Whiteness is a condition when first acquires and then one has a malignant parasitic-like condition to which, quote, white people have a particular susceptibility.

[00:04:52] That's the first sentence of the abstract. So we're going to talk a little bit about that paper because it was the target of some ire. Yes. And then in the second segment we are talking about the philosopher L.A. Paul's book.

[00:05:10] I'm doing air quotes on book because we didn't read the book. It's like white people book. On transformative experiences. Transformative experience I guess is the title of the book. We read some. We prepared.

[00:05:24] I actually downloaded the book and read a chunk of it but then yes also the prose was very helpful and it is a very simple idea that I'm excited to talk about because I think it's simple but then also profound and true.

[00:05:39] And also sometimes wrong so we'll talk about that. Yeah. Well, Dave is a provoked violent opposition and kind of animosity. I thought you liked Lori Paul too. Lori Paul is my friend. Don't say anything about that. Let's... Okay.

[00:05:58] I want to load my objection here to talking about any of this stuff. I feel like we have to but I resent it all the way. Right. This is your fault. I resent having to talk about critical race theory. But I wanted to ask you... Oh, sorry.

[00:06:19] Just quickly. I want to ask you have you ever taken one of those 23 and me or any of the... Like how white are you? I haven't. Because I feel like this is just an empirical question. The degree of evilness that one has could be directly. Yeah.

[00:06:35] No, I think I'm mostly non-white if you look like I haven't done the actual DNA analysis but I think I'm like one quarter white. I'm like... I think like two fifths and I don't know how the math worked out but two fifths Native American. Cherokee, probably Cherokee. Possibly.

[00:06:57] Two ninths black. And yeah. And then obviously some Ashkenazi Jew. Right. But no Sephardic. I heard you saying clearly. I would love to be Sephardic. All Ashkenazi dudes have Sephardic envy. You know, like who wouldn't want to be like a little cooler, a little tougher, a little... Right.

[00:07:22] Mediterranean, you know. Right. You should do it. You should do like a 23 and me. Yeah, but then like all like I would learn that I'm not related to like most of the people I think I'm related to. I am, you know... Did you do one?

[00:07:40] Yeah, I did a National Geographic one years ago. And it was mostly expected. I have a lot of... So a quarter of my family's Lebanese so there's Mediterranean that goes back there. And but I'm... It came out like around 20% Native American, so Indigenous South American.

[00:08:00] So I feel like I get to say some things that you're not allowed to say. You were like a couple of your white ancestors rave to... It's actually, it's like the battle is in my own genes, you know? Like I don't know what to believe.

[00:08:14] Like do I identify with the rapists or the rapes? Exactly. And the question we all have that and ask ourselves. I laugh to keep from crying. All right, so should we start with on having whiteness or should we start with critical race?

[00:08:29] Well, I was going to ask you a serious question or somewhat serious depending on, you know, like what the... How relative to what we've been talking about. What like when if somebody asked you what is critical race theory? What would you say?

[00:08:42] It's yeah, it's exactly the right question and it's one that I was asking Nikki and Bella. So my answer would be, would have been critical race theory is...

[00:08:56] This is my, the naivish answer that it is a loose field of study about how institutional structures have particularly affected people of a certain race. Right?

[00:09:13] So like the notion that there is structural racism and that identifying the sources of those structures and institutions is a way to like get rid of some of the nefarious, creepy racism of the country.

[00:09:26] And even that's more educated than I probably could have given you like 24 hours ago. Right. I mean, we've talked about it a lot on the show, mostly just making fun of the panic about critical race theory from people like former guest of the podcast James Lindsay.

[00:09:45] But I had always associated it with just critical theory in general, which has kind of Marxist elements and related to like feminist critique of rights, feminists like standpoint epistemology.

[00:09:59] But in this case, it's focused on race and as you say the way like racism and exploitation and oppression are baked into the structures and the systems. And, you know, even like the founding moral or political principles and ideals of America or Western civilization.

[00:10:22] Because like it reminded me and I think this is right from the little research that I did also within the last 24 hours. Remember that paper by Paul Butler that we did an episode on a critique of rights and the Gideon case, which established like the Miranda rights.

[00:10:40] And there was a critique of how these rights are in some ways more of an obstacle than, you know, a stepping stone to the kind of equality that we want.

[00:10:50] And one of the things I learned is that critical race theory, you know, one of its founding members is Derek Bell. And he has a famous critique of Brown versus the Board of Education on along those same lines.

[00:11:04] I won't get into like the reasoning behind this critique of rights, but like I think that is what it is.

[00:11:11] I think it also emphasizes the importance of narratives in the development of like how we understand, you know, society, how we understand our self conception as people as a nation.

[00:11:24] So it focuses on narratives and not just this illusion that we can get like an objective picture of history or something like that. I think it says and I think they're right about this that there's no ideology free way of doing history.

[00:11:40] You know, and that will lead to a kind of 1619 project and the whole controversy over that which maybe we'll talk about, right? Because we're experts. But I want to talk about this first part of it, which you mentioned as well.

[00:11:54] This idea that it focuses on structural systemic racism that it's like baked into our institutions and concepts rather than on individual prejudice, like people being racist or whatever. Like that's kind of not the point.

[00:12:10] And yet it's like it's being, you know, associated with almost the opposite kind of exact exactly what I wanted to bring up next to because, you know, even its roots in in.

[00:12:24] And I think that's a critical legal theory, which is just about the laws themselves as these institutions that that might be unequal.

[00:12:34] The whole point to me always seemed like the whole point of the notion of systemic racism or systematic injustice is that this is not about individuals who are acting with intentional prejudice but rather about the systems and like you say,

[00:12:50] there's a lot of slippage. There's no, you know, there's no like dictionary definition of what this stuff is. But to use it as a catch all to include the opposite of the things. Like seems like really bad.

[00:13:06] And so so all of this legislation that's just like, you know, we just don't want our kids being told that being that they're racist or that being white is bad.

[00:13:14] And it's like, at some point all this shit got so conflated, you know, perhaps intentionally as some people have said, to as a sort of propaganda machine against the discussion of any of this stuff. Right. That's what's so frustrating about it.

[00:13:29] Like it gets kind of lumped in with like the Robin D'Angelo kind of like, I'm so disgusting because I'm white and I'm so privileged and I just need to just admit how racist I am just by virtue of being white.

[00:13:42] And it's like you said, it's not just not critical race theory. It like is the opposite. It's focusing on the wrong things.

[00:13:48] You're not supposed to focus on your like complicity or your guilt except to the extent that you are benefiting from unfair structures and institutions that you could then actually try to, you know, change and change your understanding of.

[00:14:04] And to the extent that we have like individual issue, you know, like if it's not to say that people aren't prejudiced in real life, like they could just be the result of being like brought up in these structures.

[00:14:18] Okay, it could be the consequence, not the cause of inequality. Yeah, man. Sure, a lot of critical race theorists think that plenty of people are prejudiced, like actively, like explicitly racist.

[00:14:29] But it's just not the focus of the theory. In fact, it's like trying to say no, don't look at that because that's not the point. You could have everybody, you know, consciously prejudiced free and these institutions would still be biased and unjust in these racist ways.

[00:14:47] And this why like it's also annoying that implicit bias training sort of gets wrapped up in all this too, which like, no, that's all that's also kind of not the point of critical race.

[00:14:56] Or like that I'd be more comfortable with the conscious prejudice view than even the implicit by like, that seems like the wrong level of analysis, like two levels down. Well, yeah, yeah, I mean, to me they seem more equidistant from the point because they're still focused on individuals.

[00:15:14] But yeah, it's a little even more ridiculous where, okay, we just cure this we leave. So here's the part where you say intentional and

[00:15:26] it's being conceived of both by its critics and sometimes people who want to embrace the mantle, even though they're pressing this other line that we just have to atone for our whiteness and

[00:15:40] just be conscious of our privilege and all that. Like, it's its own, it seems like maybe it's not a total coincidence that this way of understanding it leaves the structures and institutions in place that we have and just focuses on getting everybody to have like epiphanies and

[00:15:58] or just feel bad and guilty about the past. And it's like somehow the way of understanding it, like the correct way that would actually threaten or challenge like a lot of the institutions that kind of preserve the status quo, the structural structural relations.

[00:16:19] If I start talking like a communist, you know, I can't those things are just ignored and sidelined and made not the point. And conscious or unconscious level, that's what ends up happening. You know, I don't know, I think that's kind of interesting.

[00:16:33] I gave you a paper in Harper's by this historian Matt Karp, who was talking more about the 1619 project than critical race theory. But he yeah, he paints a really complex picture of how this might work. I think, you know, it's it's compelling as I would say.

[00:16:50] It was a good article that is frustrating if you're reading it for any answers about.

[00:16:57] No, no, I also read a piece in the Atlantic that covered some of the will put links all these that covered some of the the controversy about the 1619 project and like the factual sort of the issue that historians had with some of the facts as they were presented.

[00:17:17] And my first thought was, well, this is the kind of stuff that like, yeah, historians should argue about because they're like details that like matter to historians. But I wasn't sure how much it mattered to the project as a whole other than just the general point that if some details are wrong, then people might dismiss you altogether.

[00:17:34] But they're going to dismiss you altogether anyway. But there was this point and you would when you brought up narrative and made me think of this that there did seem to be some selective or distorting ways of presenting the historical facts that that fit with the narrative, which again I don't know that you can help but but one of them in particular

[00:17:58] was this notion that the United States entered into the Revolutionary War in large part because they were afraid that England was turning against slavery and so they wanted their independence. And that does seem to be not very true at all.

[00:18:15] Yeah. And it's something that they refused to sort of correct and you know like I believe this historian, Sean Willins who wrote this piece in the Atlantic, like it seems that he has the receipts to show that this is just sort of a misinterpretation of what was actually going on.

[00:18:30] No one one of the I read about this too. There was a somebody who was a fact checker for the 1619 project and she said look this just isn't true there's no documented.

[00:18:44] Number one like you know it wasn't clear that the British were turning against slavery at that time and number two it just wasn't you can't find documents that support that and and plenty of documents that focus on many other things as as the primary motivation.

[00:19:01] So like yeah so yeah like I think like you said though you know this is how history is always taught the idea that we were taught like real objective history and this is like biased history. That's crazy right like there are going to be these distortions that as you say should be

[00:19:19] battled over and corrected when they're when they're wrong. And you know the New York Times did walk it back a little bit. It's still it bothers me like honestly it bothers me because I don't think you need that to to make the point you don't need to rely on the twisting things into the narrative right

[00:19:39] right twisting facts into the narrative like there's plenty. There's plenty there to criticize and I think that's the point of the of the Harper's article that you sent me which is yeah like you can't you can't use history this way like like it's so complex there's so many causal factors you're going to make judgments about what

[00:19:58] to focus on and what not to focus on but one thing that you'll never have is a neat story that fits something like a grand narrative like this. And so what do you do with that well I think the Harper's author wants to argue that we should use it sort of to be more forward facing

[00:20:13] like the arguments should be more about how to move forward and I agree I mean I agree with that it's or at least so as I understood its argument like the 1619 project is sort of almost designed to think of this as so baked into our DNA as a country our origin like our birth that there's nothing we can do to change it.

[00:20:36] And and like because it's telling this story of just relentless oppression and racism you know which of course is true to a large extent it it it skips over like all these successes and the people behind their successes so like one of the things I was very surprised with Frederick Douglass is mentioned

[00:20:57] like once and Harriet Tubman isn't isn't mentioned at all a lot of these people you know the civil rights movement just the Civil War itself like these things are just get sidelined because they don't fit the narrative now.

[00:21:14] In defense of the 1619 project people like this is how it always is though right you know like why didn't we ever learn about the Tulsa massacre what you know growing up I never heard of that.

[00:21:26] I mean look at our country just made Juneteenth a national holiday largely because we did an episode of the Atlanta episode. Juneteenth. That's what this podcast achieves social change like real social change.

[00:21:41] It's all yeah I remember reading a people's history of the United States and getting you know like as a whatever freshman in college and getting my mind blown but like I don't think I had properly thought about history being told from the perspective of other people. Yeah.

[00:21:55] Like they were just to me they were just facts and those facts just spoke for themselves. And it's not like a new radical idea like history is written by the winners is essentially what you know this view as a kind of cliched truth that this view recognizes.

[00:22:09] Here's what gets me which is I think that we have psychologically a hard time finding the sources of bad shit to be impersonal forces like structural systems like we really I think it's easy to find. I mean to find the perpetrator and blame them and ascribe guilt.

[00:22:34] And so in looking at history you look at now and you say well look obviously the United States has suffered from like a terrible terrible racism throughout its history.

[00:22:43] Let's find the people who were behind behind closed doors arguing that we should start a revolution because we want to keep slavery.

[00:22:49] And that's that is to me one version of the let's let's say that all of the bad shit that's going on now is due to the racism of white people like there.

[00:23:00] There's no it's it's just hard for psychologically to accept that the more complex impersonal perhaps non nefarious in the sense that nobody know individual is guilty of it causes for a lot of the bad shit that's going on.

[00:23:15] So so I think even autobiographically it's easy to point to the people who helped you or harmed you in your own personal history.

[00:23:25] And it's like you don't pay that much attention to all of the other sort of random shit that had to be going on for it to happen. Yeah, so I think that's definitely part of it like we want to blame an agent or agents even if it's ourselves.

[00:23:39] I also think though that it's another one of those things where you know it's easier. It's easier to have like an implicit bias seminar than to actually make big changes to the way police departments are funded.

[00:23:52] And one of the things like the New York Times which is doing this radical revision of history when it comes to something that actually would affect the structures as they are and not just some history

[00:24:03] curriculums maybe you know just the way people talk about or understand their history but actually something that would that would change then they jump ship you know or at least there are a lot more tepid about it.

[00:24:17] Yeah, it's all these kind of symbolic reckonings rather than like okay let's go through and see how we can fix these institutions that are privileging us and that are making us successful and wealthy.

[00:24:33] Yeah, it's incredible as you say this I'm thinking to myself have I ever talked to a single person as radically like you know on whatever side of the political aisle like as we can get in our universities.

[00:24:45] Has anybody ever told you that that diversity training seminar really hit the spot? No. I've never heard it said and I wonder what the people who are running these things are thinking about because I have to believe that they think that they're making a difference.

[00:25:02] Yeah, there has to be some like weird class of people that think this is important healthy and like the benefits outweigh the costs of it and then it's actually like improving things it's like a significant step towards addressing injustice. Right.

[00:25:20] Well, if Lincoln would have just done some more diversity inclusion training seminars maybe he could have avoided the whole civil war.

[00:25:26] We should talk about the paper right and have a little fun because it's very serious for an opening segment but I actually think it relates to exactly what we're talking about which is this idea that whiteness is kind of a disease parasitic whiteness renders its hosts at appetites voracious insatiable and perverse.

[00:25:48] So it's and these deformed appetites particularly target non-white people.

[00:25:52] So it's doing two things right again it's focusing on the individual and their disease of whiteness instead of like larger social structures but then it's also like making it sound like it's pretty much like once you have it you know yeah we can give you some treatment but we're

[00:26:10] It's like herpes. Yeah. It's like you can manage it. At best. At best you know. So it's almost like all these things are just geared towards just saying there's nothing you can do. We can't change it you know. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:26] Before we dive into some mockery of this the one thing that struck me was this person Donald Moss who wrote this article in this journal of analytic psychiatry that something like psychiatry it's like an animal like psychoanalysis journal. Is it a real journal like is this.

[00:26:46] It's a real journal but it's like I looked it's like one hundred and thirty out of one hundred and forty an impact factor for all psychiatry journals and it's just Freudian psychoanalysts like this these people are batshit people who you know like if you read some of what he wrote like I'm sure most people

[00:27:02] just read the abstract because that's I think the juiciest bits but you get sexual about this stuff. I want to read the opening to hilarious. Oh yeah.

[00:27:12] He's talking about our unruly sexualities exert a constant pressure to eroticize the bodies and beings of strangers transgressively aiming to defy the wall to integrate those bodies and beings to take them in but the rogue sexualities of parasitic whiteness add to that.

[00:27:28] This is like deeply Freudian sexual like this is just to me the stuff that I've come across it's just crazy that nobody would pay attention to ever but this thing this is the most impactful paper that this guy will ever.

[00:27:41] Right in his life just because alt-right Twitter or centrist Twitter you know right fun time and we don't have any idea whether this guy is like right like just some crackpot or if this is something that is like.

[00:27:54] No he's like a he has been publishing for probably whatever 30 years like these weird papers like not just on on whiteness but like all you know he has like a long and storied career but.

[00:28:06] So he says I want to read this opening because it's so he says that he's writing about two positions each position inside and outside offers an irreducibly distorted view the one by the limits of sincere introspection the other by the limits of theorized observation.

[00:28:29] The two perspectives turbulently converged during a recent experience in South Africa we dropped off a black woman hitchhiker at her ramshackle township home one of hundreds we could see all jammed together helter skelter on a barren cut off underserved piece of land apartheid segregation still firmly in place.

[00:28:51] Back at the hotel we spoke to one of the staff about how troubled we'd been by what we had seen the young woman responded without hesitation well she said it's really simple they have their houses we have ours.

[00:29:04] She spoke with a serene confidence pulling us in indifferent to whatever resistance we in our silence silence must have felt they have their houses we have ours that sentence and especially that word we repellent and implicating inspires haunts and deforms what follows.

[00:29:24] So I mean like this guy takes a hitchhiker drops her off into her house goes back to his fancy hotel and is like furious that the staff the people who are like serving him on this like trip so that he can just sort of write about his exotic interaction with with with dark skinned people and he's pissed that she was probably like yeah like I don't want to talk with you about this right now.

[00:29:54] It's unfucking believable like this guy.

[00:29:57] How can you not hate him just after reading that dude it's it is the weirdest weirdest combination of extraordinarily tone deaf privilege and like throwing themselves on the pyre to like be like I apply for forgive me for my whiteness this is terrible and person but but like not even me because I know it's it's it's the it's the people waiting on him that like you know they're the real villain.

[00:30:24] The real villain here right like they with their word we repellent and implicating.

[00:30:31] In fact they like what she said probably to just like get away from like creepy wife he said it deforms what follows like it's actually like affecting his writing her indifference the cruel indifference that she had.

[00:30:46] Okay I want to read something to note I guarantee you most people did not get this far into this article because now it's crazy but he does you know he's he's giving these case studies of like therapy.

[00:31:01] People who have parasitic right now I don't know because like honestly he lost me in his discussion of this because I don't even know how this particular example how he brings it back to anything about whiteness but I have to read this.

[00:31:16] Case two a woman in analysis is speaking of her growing disgust at her male partner. She can barely tolerate his neediness his insistence that they always be together increasingly restless and sexually unsatisfied she has begun to threaten either affairs or break up.

[00:31:33] Her partner responds forcefully and repeatedly with an image that has long been a presence in their relationship he says to her this is not you speaking I know you love me it's the pink monkey you have inside you.

[00:31:45] That's what's talking that monkey is crazy wild you can't control you need me to keep it under control.

[00:31:52] The patient has a history of profound psychiatric disturbance the idea of losing control terrifies her for years terrified she has joined with her partner in working to keep the pink monkey under control.

[00:32:02] The pink monkey a dangerous animal demeaned by color names what she and her controlling partner agree is an invasive humanoid presence the incarnation of a mad. Disregulating primitivity located not outside where it belongs but instead deep in her interior.

[00:32:18] Is this real what is that a clip the pink monkey. It's so this is why I like my initial reaction was why is little boy's penis.

[00:32:31] That people were sharing this makes me just like think like you can find whatever you know you can go find crazy shit journals and share it like it's just this one happened to hit this nerve.

[00:32:44] Does he kind of admit that he then like had an effect like had sex with her. I don't know because he describes like her initial exuberance and finding herself happily aligned with an image that had long seemed an alien threat fades in the sessions immediately following.

[00:33:01] I say that she might feel that I had aligned myself with the pink monkey had enticed her into sacrificing her partner's insistence on sane regulation in exchange for joining me in unlimited excess.

[00:33:13] This picture of me as a maligned seducer reminds her of the Robert De Niro character in Cape Fear a killer who entices what.

[00:33:22] What does any of this have to do with why I think he's definitely just saying like I fucked her like over five years that I kind of look like Bob De Niro. Yeah exactly. I had the animal sensuality of a Robert De Niro.

[00:33:39] The pink monkey had been transformed. This is just crazy. But what does this have to do with white? I don't know because honestly like I couldn't I could not keep my attention on any thread in this.

[00:33:55] This kind of clinical work dismantling perverse structures organized around an epistemology of entitled dominion turns interior vertical maps into interior horizontal ones. This is this is like sideways music but like worse such this work eliminates at least one psychic receptor site for parasitic whiteness.

[00:34:13] Like what it does seem the abstract is funny because the abstract seems like which is all that anybody's read I couldn't even get it. You sent it to me. The abstract seems designed for like Tucker college Tucker Carlson to just have a field day like just culture war.

[00:34:31] I wonder if this guy would just like one day was like holy shit I'm getting a ton of downloads on my paper. Sweet. I finally making a difference. Finally take a crack at this parasitic whiteness.

[00:34:46] We could like you know have a vaccine against whiteness and really just like a light of fire under this whole fucking. All right. Anything more to say about race theory just apologies for getting a little serious in the intro.

[00:35:06] Everyone chill out about it obviously but we'll be right back to talk about Lori Paul's views on transformative experiences. Today's episode is brought to you by one of my favorite sponsors wine.com.

[00:35:22] Wine.com is the better way to buy wine whether you want to get one of those fruity Chardonnay's or Sauvignon Blancs that Pizarro likes those kind of wine mom wines that he loves

[00:35:34] or the more robust and hearty reds that I like wine.com is a fantastic way to get those bottles into your house and into your tummy.

[00:35:43] You know in this day and age there's still this wide misconception that you can't purchase wine and even spirits online and have them delivered to your door. Well you can. Wine now in every state and the harder stuff the hard alcohol and a bunch of them.

[00:35:58] Wine.com allows you to learn explore and purchase all from the comfort of your home on your time without the need to stand in the wine aisle looking clueless trying to make sense of label after label.

[00:36:09] And here's the thing you might think that shipping would be expensive but wine.com offers unlimited free shipping with their stewardship membership for only $49 a year wine.com offers unlimited free shipping to any address.

[00:36:25] You can use your membership to send gifts throughout the year to family and friends to us if you want shipping is free every time. Wine.com is the world's largest wine store you will not find a bigger or broader selection of wines anywhere.

[00:36:39] They offer expert guidance with extensive free professional ratings and tasting notes. They have a five star wine.com app on iOS and Android which allows you to scan any wine or liquor label to view pricing professional ratings and tasting notes no matter where you are.

[00:36:55] So go to wine.com slash bad wizards wine.com slash bad wizards and get $50 off your first order that's quite a deal for our listeners. Once again wine.com slash bad wizards and get $50 off your first order thanks to wine.com for sponsoring this episode.

[00:37:49] Welcome back to Very Bad Wizards. This is the predictable time in the episode where we like to take a moment to thank all of our dear listeners for all of their support and communication with us. We very much appreciate it.

[00:38:07] I you know Tamler you were gone like out in the middle of nowhere so I had to sort of keep up the Reddit argument mantle. So I got in a couple of Reddit arguments with people.

[00:38:16] I saw when I came back all of a sudden you're like I'm like super I got to say super thoughtful on my part. And the octagon grappling with all these Reddit guys. Yeah it was about what was it about. We got in a discussion.

[00:38:34] Somebody accused me of having you know some sort of depth of psychology accusation of not wanting to talk about the truth of the no self view of Buddhism and how.

[00:38:45] So a little offensive and that you were attributing like Parfit to Parfit's view like you weren't acknowledging that that was actually the. That was just actually the Buddha. Yeah. And I was like Parfit in the Buddha are slightly different.

[00:39:02] I'd like to think or else you would have been willing to talk about the Parfit this whole time. Exactly. You wouldn't have to bribe me if he was the Buddha. It was a fun discussion.

[00:39:13] And actually it actually entertained me on a couple of days there where I was uncharacteristically bored to death. I just had nothing to do on a couple of days. Productive discussion. Productive discussion edifying edifying and they were really nice people.

[00:39:28] So if you would like to engage in conversation with us or just reach out to us you can easily do so we're not hard to find very bad wizards at gmail.com you can email us.

[00:39:41] You can tweet at us at very bad wizards or at Tamler and at P's. You can also jump in and start shit with us on Reddit if you go to our subreddit which is reddit.com slash r slash very bad wizards.

[00:39:54] And if you just want to follow passively check us out on Instagram. Radis on Apple podcasts. Listen to us subscribe on Spotify. What was that face? Well just that you're saying like passively like you're almost like it's like.

[00:40:11] Like you're not just you're not like you're not an your laptop is like exclusive kind of part of a subconscious catalog. And it's like if you just want to be a bystander in life you can go to you can follow us on Instagram.

[00:40:28] All you want is to see some cool posts. I mean I know you are on the Instagram do people talk to. Right exact. Kiru you can follow us on Instagram. Yeah do that. I mean that's the wonderful thing about

[00:40:46] Instagram is you're not forced, you're not dragged into conversations justifying your psychological existence but yeah we really appreciate all the ways in which you guys reach out to us. We read everything that you write, never forget that and yeah thank you for taking the time.

[00:41:03] Yeah thank you and if you would like to support us in more tangible and active ways than just following us on Instagram, you can become one of our patrons. We love our patrons,

[00:41:17] we have some ideas, we're going to be getting together in what a few weeks so we're planning to record not only some main episodes but some bonus episodes. Also I'm prepping for my big

[00:41:29] episode where I convinced David to believe in ghosts. And you're watching all kind of like haunted house documentaries on... I've watched all three conjurings so I'll be armed with that ammunition.

[00:41:44] Yeah anyway yes you can join us at a bunch of different tiers at I believe the lowest tier you get all of our episodes ad free and then you also get access to all the volumes of Dave's

[00:41:57] beats. You get bonus episodes for $2 an up per episode, $5 an up per episode. You get access to our Brothers Karamantsov series which we have to I think make a little clear how you access that.

[00:42:10] Yes we love you all we're thinking of some other tiers that we have in mind and some other bonus stuff that we might give all of our patrons so we really appreciate that. You can

[00:42:20] also go to give us a one-time or recurring donation on PayPal if you don't want to to deal with Patreon. You can buy some of our merch either our coffee cups or our awesome shirts.

[00:42:34] All of this is available at the Very Bad Wizards support page and finally yeah thanks to everybody even to the Reddit people who are... I can't believe that we didn't mention a nature article

[00:42:50] in our open question. I love that stuff too I think it's great I think it's very funny. It means they think highly of us. They respect us enough to complain yeah. All right so let's talk

[00:43:00] about transformative experience since you're both like a really good friend and also like a staunch critic of Lori Paul's view. Exaggerate both things. Maybe tell us about her view. Yeah so I am friends with Lori and I've heard her talk about this two or three times

[00:43:23] so that's my defense we're not having read the full book but we read the praisy where she summarizes her book and also you link to an article. Where is that? I'll put that link to brain pickings

[00:43:33] brain pickings that sort of summarize her view but I think it's not a hard view to get across the summary I think is easy. So Lori starts out by arguing or by saying basically

[00:43:46] like look there is a natural way that we have when we are making choices about our life and that is to assess those the options and use our imagination to project ourselves sort of into like what would

[00:43:59] it be like if I chose this or what would it be like if I chose that so we can see these like possible futures. But for certain choices she argues that involve dramatically new life-changing experiences we know so little that our imagination and what she calls our epistemic

[00:44:18] capacities are limited as we can't use the normal way of sort of projecting with our imagination into these different options because we know so little about these experiences and what would be involved in making these decisions. So this is what she thinks is the case for

[00:44:33] what she calls transformative experiences. These are kinds of experiences that are radically new to the agent and that change her or him in a deep and fundamental way. So she says these transformative experiences she means are transformative in a couple of ways.

[00:44:49] One is that they're epistemically transformative. They teach you something that you could not have learned without actually having experienced the thing and they're personally transformative. They change you in a way that you would not be able to know that it would change you.

[00:45:05] So I think this is her key point and what we'll talk about because this is where I start to have some disagreement but she's relying on this idea that the way in which we make our decisions

[00:45:18] rationally this normative choice theory is that you assess the value and the probability of outcomes when you're making these decisions. And she thinks that with transformative experiences by their very nature you can't use them up. The decision-theoretic model breaks

[00:45:35] down and that means that we have to think about how we make these decisions in entirely new ways. And so we could talk about the examples because I think the examples are just a lot easier.

[00:45:43] Yeah. So like as a contrast case, like do you want to go to Japanese have Japanese food or pizza or something tonight? Like that's one where you can kind of imagine like which one you're more

[00:45:55] in the mood for and there is no real problem of using that kind of normal intuitive model that probably is overstated that we use even for small decisions but like you could it still

[00:46:06] just makes sense in light of that. Yeah. There's an interesting as I was reading as I was thinking about this there's a there is the claim that that is how our decisions are made that like we

[00:46:18] sort of naturally get into this like assessing probabilities and values and then there's the claim that we can't do that or the claim that we're consciously doing that as a strategy to make decisions. So it might describe what actually happens when we're making the decisions

[00:46:33] without actually capturing the phenomenology of those decisions but or the other way like it might like it might just be kind of more epiphenomenal than we think these deliberations right so yeah but in any case that model makes sense like setting that aside of whether this is even

[00:46:49] a model that makes sense for the kinds of smaller decisions that we might make where to go on vacation we know what to eat what movie to watch or whatever there are these other kinds of decisions

[00:47:01] and like two prime examples are like having a child and becoming a vampire where the idea is that once you have it you will be like a different person and your desires your values will have changed

[00:47:17] in ways that you can't currently understand because you haven't undergone that experience. Right so what you value now in order to make your decision like your values might be so radically different after the thing that like yeah in retrospect you realize that it was not at all

[00:47:34] something that you went into knowing right. It's like so having a kid for example you might worry oh well I'm not gonna want to go to all the their little graduation ceremonies or something

[00:47:47] like that because it sounds annoying and actually it may be a bad example because a lot of those things are kind of annoying but the but you know once you become a parent and once you become like

[00:47:57] these things become so important to you that you look back and think I can't believe that this was a con for this was in the con list of having a kid that makes no sense to me now in light of actually

[00:48:10] having had the experience of having a child. Right and moreover like you can't like the things that you maybe they're still cons and maybe they're even still cons waited in the same

[00:48:20] way as before but now you have a new feeling that is weighted so heavily that the other ones seem like meaningless in in retrospect like now you're like well I want to be with my kids so much that

[00:48:31] I could not have anticipated that that would outweigh all of my annoyances at going to their things. And there might just be higher order desires that you don't have anymore that you

[00:48:40] had before you had the kid right like you want to be able to just on a dime just you know leave the city that you're in and do some below and go to some strip and then once you

[00:48:49] have the kid you're like that does not even tempting really more because no I don't want to just abandon my kid that's not even a temptation that's not even like just a value that's over

[00:48:59] written by the joy of having a child it's just you don't have it anymore because you're a different person. So like I'm curious as to what you find objectionable about this because aside from not loving the vampire example because it's I actually like the vampire example

[00:49:16] even more but yeah but that's more like a rhetorical objection that I have like I think that doesn't I don't know help us understand the the view as well as a real life example

[00:49:31] like having children but um well but anyway like what do you because this seems like totally right to me and like oh like I was really I haven't looked at this stuff but when I read

[00:49:41] about it and I read a little bit through the book I was like like this gives me hope for philosophy this is what philosophy can do even though it's it's simple but it's pretty profound

[00:49:51] and it's it gives us a whole new lens to understand big life decisions and like how to talk to other people about them and so yeah but you but you hate it. I liked it.

[00:50:05] I like there what I like about it is that it is introducing into the conversation that what I think is true psychologically about many of these decisions that we make which is that

[00:50:17] they are changing us in such a dramatic way that our desires and our values are drastically different after them before. There's a few things that that I don't like that much about this whole

[00:50:36] approach and one is that hanging the importance of this on what it says for rational decision-making gets to a version of this basically where she says when you're deciding whether or not to

[00:50:49] have a child having a child is so transformative that all of the mechanisms that you would use in a rational way to make a decision about something else like to give your Japanese food or pizza

[00:51:00] that you can't use them anymore because they don't work because you'll be so changed. But the truth of the matter is that we get tons of information from our social world from others

[00:51:14] from variations of similar experiences that we've had in the past that I think allow us to make a perfectly not perfectly rational because no decision might be that but there's not they're not that much more challenging than these other decisions that you make you make the decision

[00:51:32] based on the information you have so somebody says well I don't know what's it like to have a kid I say like Paul Bloom told me once when I was in grad school um this is just like it's like one

[00:51:43] kid is like having four dogs and in that example he communicated to me something like the amount of work that would be involved or you would say I remember him complaining a lot about having

[00:51:56] his kids when they were little and I'd say oh it sounds like it's not worth it and he'd be like no it's like the most intense love I've ever experienced like it's totally worth it

[00:52:03] that's something that's information like I'm not stupid like I know what I don't think she denies that like if you like so in the book she says I will not argue you can't get information

[00:52:13] from the testimony of others when you make such choices you can but I will argue that such guidance only goes so far for the information every decision right but like I think it's like you're

[00:52:24] overstating the like that thing that Paul Bloom said about the four dogs uh like that wouldn't ring true for me like it didn't seem like that doesn't matter right like what matters no but

[00:52:35] it does like because like rings true for me but that's not the point of what I'm saying the I understand but I'm saying like that that this idea that you can through these metaphors and through what other

[00:52:46] people tell you like get a real sense of of what that means I think you're overstating it even when compared to like somebody describing like if you want to go camping at this place here's

[00:52:59] what you know here's what you can expect versus if you want to go to the beach and so which which leads me to let me bolster why I think um what I'm saying is I think a criticism that that of this work

[00:53:17] that it's not as trivial as you say because I think that she's hanging the importance of these the weight of these decisions on this normative theory and the implications that it has for

[00:53:27] rational decision making she's not just saying hey some shit is harder to know about than other shit because if that's all she were saying like of course she's not right I agree so she's

[00:53:36] like a difference in kind yeah she's saying the difference in kind that threatens the process by which we make decisions and I think is the difference in quality like I don't know what the

[00:53:46] pizza is going to taste like or the Japanese food is going to taste like and what muddles it is I think she introduces the Frank Jackson Mary experience which is you know the the neuroscientist

[00:53:58] who's never seen the color red even though she knows everything about wavelengths and how color works she's never actually had the phenomenological experience if you're going to that then like thus dualism like that is something so basic about phenomenology which is like I don't know what

[00:54:18] the next sip of my wine glass is going to taste like like that's just true there's a huge divide there right between yeah like I've never experienced the third sip of this glass of wine right either

[00:54:29] all decisions are kind of like that or these other ones are just the difference in in in quantity of uncertainty right and we make like that I don't think the decision process is that

[00:54:41] threatened you just might be less optimal when it's you're going in blind yeah actually don't have a strong view on whether it's best to describe this as more of a spectrum versus like a difference in kind and you have to take a radically new model to decision-making model

[00:55:00] to these kinds of decisions I think in the end it might be just a question of like how how big on the spectrum are these is the uncertainty like how much more uncertain how

[00:55:14] much more of your sort of values are going to be altered right in a way that like it makes sense to say that this is a different a whole different kind of decision yeah than these other decisions

[00:55:27] and yeah and I don't know like I think agreement is actually like quite minor because everything that she says about these decisions I think is true but my disagreement is it's more like

[00:55:41] in order to pitch this as truly important for the way we think about decisions than I think she had a hang like put her hooks into rational decision-making I don't think she needs to I think psychologically

[00:55:51] and philosophically this is a super interesting and important point that I think we are overconfident often in the sort the information that we have about making these decisions and only in retrospect do we realize like we didn't know shit yeah about what we're we didn't know shit right

[00:56:08] yeah so like I think this is really healthy I happen to know so this is one of my brother's friends who listens to this occasionally so he may hear this but he he is he's somebody that like tries to go

[00:56:21] into decisions in a very rational way like he makes pros and cons list he tries to kind of just assess things in light of reason you would love this guy you would get along with him

[00:56:31] really well does he work at give well so he his wife wanted a dog first and he was very resistant to that because he thought of all the different like pain in the ass things that would be to get a

[00:56:45] dog and all the ways it restricts their freedom their ability to go on trips it's like a fourth of a kid just tell him right the poly bloom formula like so then they get a dog and

[00:56:56] and it's the best thing ever and you can't believe that like he ever had any any objection to having a dog because it's awesome I think that was more the kind of thing that you're talking about where

[00:57:06] he just underestimated in his pro con pros and cons analysis just the joy that you get from having the dog but then the saint they go through the same process with the kid

[00:57:16] and he's very resistant to them and they recently had a kid and again he's just like oh my god this is awesome you know this is so amazing and so uh so yeah like I think like that's

[00:57:29] you know for somebody like this to have this perspective where no your model doesn't apply here you think it can apply here and you know in both cases there are a lot of there's a lot of

[00:57:42] time that that that this stuff could have done earlier if it hadn't been for this model dominating my friend's thought so much so I think it's really healthy to think of it as just

[00:57:54] such a radically different kind of decision that you have to put these other kind of rational ordered things aside now the idea that you need to adopt a new framework and especially to have epistemic humility as she says at the end that's really I think important and right

[00:58:12] this episode of very bad wizards is brought to you by Nord VPN what's a VPN a VPN is a virtual private network it's a service that protects your internet connection and privacy online

[00:58:26] by creating an encrypted tunnel for your data it allows you to protect your online identity it hides your IP address allows you to use public wi-fi hotspots knowing in the security of knowing that nobody can capture your information while you're doing that and as we've said many times

[00:58:46] one of the big benefits of Nord VPN especially for our listeners is that you're able to access your favorite content no matter where you go so as the world is opening up as as we're allowed

[00:58:58] to travel more and more some of us more than others we're going to be in other countries where we might want maybe in our downtime in between sightseeing might want to access all

[00:59:10] that sweet sweet content that we have at home I know I subscribe to like five streaming services and they really do not allow you to access them in many different countries but with Nord VPN

[00:59:22] you can access that content anywhere you can change your virtual location with a single click so depending on whether you're on desktop app or android or iOS device you can easily change your virtual location with a single click you can choose from over 5300 servers across 59 countries

[00:59:44] you can even use it to find streaming platforms at a lower price if you just sign in from a different location you can avoid buffering it's not like it used to be there's no throttling

[00:59:56] of bandwidth with one click you'll be watching a streaming service just as if you were not connected to the VPN it's something that's changed quite a bit since I first started trying to do this so if you're interested in securing your internet connection accessing your content anywhere

[01:00:14] go to Nord VPN slash VBW or use the coupon VB double and you'll get a two-year plan plus a bonus gift of four extra month but that two-year plan is actually at 73% off

[01:00:28] so it's a great deal just go to NordVPN.com slash VBW and you'll get a special summer plan for our listeners it's 73% discounted off of the two-year plan plus four months free our thanks to Nord VPN for sponsoring this episode of Very Bad Wizards

[01:00:47] but you know so here's like I think the interesting cases I agree with what you said the interesting cases to me are the ones where you know you know part part of this definition of transformative experiences is that your preferences change so you walk around and

[01:01:03] you see people who have had kids all of a sudden be like oh it's amazing it's the most incredible thing and you're like you could look at this as some version of you know like face-sucking

[01:01:15] aliens who've controlled started controlling the minds of people so like the minute they start they say it's great but you're like no there's something really deeply suspicious everybody was against it until it happened and now they're all like for it like right stepford wives kind of

[01:01:28] stepford wives I just don't trust when you say that it's amazing like I feel like there's a lot of maybe cognitive dissonance surrounding being a parent where you justify all of the

[01:01:39] hardship and now you say that it's amazing but I don't know like I don't or that it's changed them this is I think the scary thing about these kinds of choices which is that it's not that they're

[01:01:51] telling themselves some false story it's that they've changed so much that it's a true story you know right right it's like I'm trying to think of the right sort of sci-fi thing like that but where we're like everybody's doing something and like dwindles down to like only

[01:02:06] one or two people who realize that everybody has been sucked into this like whatever and well like or maybe like alcoholics anonymous or something like that where you go through this like process

[01:02:18] which is a little weird and you might think like I would think would be really just tough to stomach at every level and yet like you come out of that you're a different person but I think a lot of

[01:02:30] people like it's there they embrace what they've become but then there's always this question of well what was that brainwashing or was it you know like religious transformation are they different yeah yeah our religious transformation yeah yeah it's so I guess one of the one of the things

[01:02:47] so imagine that some people went through an experience and they unequivocally let's say it was a transformative experience like they really did not know what it would be like

[01:02:58] but they all say it's terrible don't do it yeah there is a case where I'm like well yeah a rational decision is just listen to those people right right like and transformative or not I feel like in

[01:03:13] those cases the evidence that of testimony as you like to say has has has rational weight so yeah so I don't think it's that threatening by dint of it being transformative it's that

[01:03:26] threatening rational decision making it's no no but I don't think her point is that like if everybody's unanimous against something that's good information it doesn't mean that you understand what it would be like to know to make that choice it just means that you have enough evidence that

[01:03:42] like it's probably not that's something that you're gonna like right but that's why that's that's why I think my point is actually quite limited to her claim that this threatens traditional modes of decision-making whereas like no it's just a different kind of evidence

[01:03:54] right like going on a roller coaster I was one of those kids who was super scared I did not want to go on roller coasters like did not want to like all the way up until probably eighth grade when my

[01:04:06] Damani finally convinced me to go on one I fucking loved it I went on it like 20 times that day right um yeah and I think I didn't know what it would feel like to be on a roller coaster

[01:04:16] but to Damani's testimony was just one piece of rational input into my decision-making process where didn't seem that different I don't know and probably him calling you like a huge pussy probably was that I love the vampire example because yeah let's talk about yeah because I think it

[01:04:38] illustrates an interesting point which is nobody's been a vampire right I mean you might believe that somebody has but nobody's actually been a vampire so the very ability to describe

[01:04:52] what life would be as a vampire and to pose it as a problem is making my point that like no there's actually like a lot of information we have about what it'd be like to like not I mean I've been reading

[01:05:01] Anne Rice novels in my spare time so many have a wealth of information but the all of the descriptions of the phenomenology of being a vampire of the facts of the matter of daily living and

[01:05:15] the guilt you might have for drinking blood all of those things are just I don't I just think it's just one of those cases where it's like a hard decision to make and sure you're different

[01:05:24] afterwards but like you may it's not hard to make an informed decision that's just as rational as whether I want to go to pizza or Japanese food so like there you're denying that there is even

[01:05:33] a spectrum it seems no it's no and again this is just about whether or not it threatens normative decision-making theory well so here's what she says let me describe it because

[01:05:45] it's she has a colorful way of describing what it would be to be a vampire you know from in the abstract with one swift painless bite you'll be permanently transformed into an elegant

[01:05:54] and fabulous creature of the night you know what that's like as a member of the undead your life will be completely different you'll experience a range of intense new sense experiences you'll gain immortal strength speed and power and you'll look fantastic in everything you wear

[01:06:12] you'll also need to drink animal blood but not human blood although I don't know like I don't know what vampires I guess angel from Buffy or something like that but and avoid sunlight suppose that all your friends people whose interests views and lives were similar to yours

[01:06:28] have already decided to become vampires and all of them tell you they love it they describe their new lives with unbridled enthusiasm and encourage you to become a vampire too they say I would

[01:06:37] never go back life has meaning it's amazing but I can't really explain it to you you have to become a vampire to know what it is like so I think her point and I agree with this

[01:06:46] although again I have my problems with using this kind of thought experiment where we really don't we don't know and I guess this is the point but it's hard to even know whether this is a good

[01:06:56] example because we don't really have a sense of what being a vampire is you've never worn a fabulous outfit is what you're saying I am not an elegant and fabulous creature of the night

[01:07:05] and I actually never have been so you know like I think she's right like at that point your friends are not like reliable it's sort of what you were saying about the stepford

[01:07:15] wives parents it's like you don't know whether you can trust them you don't know whether they like even if you think they're being honest that they love their new lives the point is who is the

[01:07:27] they that's making these decisions right now who are you know and do you want to become somebody that is so different from what you are now I think it is it's it's not like you can make

[01:07:39] a pro con list for that as much as you have to decide if you it's almost a form of not suicide because that's overstating it but a kind of like I am moving to a new phase of life where I am going

[01:07:53] to be a different person and do you want to make that leap but it's a leap it's a leap of faith it's a kierkegaardian leap of faith I guess we should do kierkegaard soon yeah yeah yeah I get it like

[01:08:08] but do you see why the the frank jackson mary example sort of throws this off because if if that's used as sort of a justifying way to say like well she didn't know what it was like that point

[01:08:21] is just about like almost every phenomenological experience so right and all of our choices will change our phenomenology in some way or another like they're they're not that epistemically closed to us well I mean like sometimes it seems like you're saying that like any choice is like

[01:08:40] a transformative experience in some sense and sometimes it seems like you're saying that like these transformative experiences aren't all that transformative I can still listen to a Paul blue metaphor and and know and know immediately know exactly what the last

[01:08:56] no no I'm saying that that's the trap that she sets for herself so if you use the frank jackson thing as a metaphor then all decisions are are not within this rational decision-making

[01:09:07] framework if you say no you can like it doesn't matter that much like the third sip of your wine will be much like the second sip of your wine like don't worry then um then I think then you're

[01:09:19] just accepting like a whole bunch of stuff is to a greater or lesser degree within some acceptably rational like information that you get so so long as somebody has experienced it and you can talk

[01:09:30] to them like right and you recognize them they seem in other ways like the person that you knew right they're not like story-eyed and being like hi I love it here right exactly that's why I

[01:09:41] don't love the vampire analogy because I really do think like you don't know who you're talking to when you're talking to the vampires that used to be your friends but you know who you're talking to

[01:09:50] with paul blue you change so radically when you have a kid that it's like your personality is completely altered right I think it's not that much of a problem for someone like you who

[01:10:01] immediately found the value to be not at all in the implications this has for normative decision like decision theoretic frameworks like the value that you had with this is in all the senses the value that I take from this it's just that I think she oversells it by

[01:10:16] saying this has that many implications for how we make rational decisions well so here's an interesting analogy which she actually doesn't use as much in the book but um does mention and

[01:10:28] emphasize a little in the preci I know because I looked up coon but in the book but the paradigm shifts so like I actually like that analogy maybe better as a way of saying that

[01:10:41] it's not that you won't have information or you won't have it's just that you'll have to completely reorient your way of investigating this decision with information that you don't have access to and you really can't have access to and and that you know the way you approach decisions

[01:11:00] after that at least in relation to this choice will be too different for you to like really be all that informed about what you're going to do and so there's there is this maybe it's not a

[01:11:13] difference in kind but a big difference in on the spectrum of how just epistemically humble you have to be about this how you have to realize that you don't know what you're getting into

[01:11:25] or whether this is good or bad that that kind of pro con model it's much more effective for a certain class of choices much less effective for this other class of life decisions and if you

[01:11:37] recognize that then how you describe it as a difference in kind or you know along the spectrum is not like that important to me because it makes you know it gives you a good example

[01:11:48] and the truth is like I've never been a pro con kind of person anyway so that's shocked me but like there but this sort of I don't know makes me gets at I think intuitively or at least

[01:12:02] is a nice way of making me feel like I've been doing that for a reason you know yeah well so a couple things one I don't think this is the decision I was trying to point to earlier I

[01:12:12] don't think you need to consciously have pro con lists to actually be fitting the model for how we make this like you are making predictions in your head about what will or won't make you happy

[01:12:22] or whatever right like that it's not necessary that you be doing that by making lists but like if if that's just what your computation boils down to then it might be interested in the neuroscience behind us temporal there's in your brain there's a prefrontal but that's that you're

[01:12:41] don't have access to the sort of conservativeness of your friend in making the decision say by getting a dog or getting a kid maybe the very same processes have saved him from like terrible

[01:12:54] decisions like that it's maybe he's like just you know 98 for 100 on these so like your friend I have a friend who actually told me that he tried crack once and it wasn't tamler but

[01:13:05] and he said I did try crack you're not talking about and he said that like it scared him because it was he was actually heroin addict and he said the crack was actually so good to him that

[01:13:19] he never took a second hit because he knew that like he would just lose control over but you know like a bunch of crack kids are going to tell you how amazing crack is so like and only like three of them will be cia operatives

[01:13:36] but so I let's take the most extreme version of her claim which I think is something like there are some decisions for which you have zero information of the sort that matters

[01:13:47] did she say zero no no no of the sort that matters but but like the the important aspects of it you have no access to I think she wants to say I think she wants to say there is a huge

[01:14:00] chunks of important information you have no access to not that you have no access to any important information right so let's say you have some just some really minimal sparse information like like that you might not even be sure about like you said about how it changes people's

[01:14:19] preferences so that you don't even know whether to trust them when they say it's amazing to have kids what do you make your decision then on do you you make it based on

[01:14:28] the little information you have you don't but let's just for the sake of this just say that the only relevant information is stuff that you don't know anything about it sounds like flipping a coin would be just as good a decision-making process in those cases

[01:14:44] but I think that for some let's take to the extreme and I remember talking to Lori about this I don't remember her response because I was just too satisfied with my own question but back in the days of white just untrammeled white privilege

[01:14:59] and male male white male premise yeah um death is one of these like death is a transformative experience that we have zero real access to what happens but I don't think that sort of my decision-making process is threatened by that I'm pretty sure that I don't want it

[01:15:18] it's not like a flip a coin either I want death or not right but I don't think I think that's a straw manning her point to say that that would be an implication of her view that you should just

[01:15:28] flip a coin as to whether you want to live or die and like or some other transformative experience it's a reductio not a not a straw man because I think that she wants to think

[01:15:38] that she wants to say that these are non-rational decisions I think that that there is a big chunk of it like first of all I think there's only some like there's only some of them that are

[01:15:47] put in the like basket of there's a chance you might say yes to this there's a chance you might say no to this right joining some sex cult where you're just going to be like sexually tortured

[01:16:00] in a dungeon for the rest of your life like you don't know what that would be like but you have enough information like I think nothing that Lori Paul says is inconsistent

[01:16:11] with this to know that's just not in the basket of choices that it's possible that you want to say yes to but seriously why not because you have like it seems like an obvious example because of course

[01:16:25] you know what pain is like and of course you know that you don't like pain and of course you can map like multiply the pain that you felt into that but isn't that what we're doing for the

[01:16:33] positive things like it worries me a little bit about our position that it's only talking about like these amazing experiences that you should like having a kid or being of empire fabulous

[01:16:42] and elegant creature of the night I think her point still holds if uh if there are just a class of things where you know you don't like to be constantly in pain and constantly humiliated

[01:16:54] and so you that's enough to say this is off the table but there are other decisions which some people you know choose to do other people don't choose to do the people that you know

[01:17:06] that it is a significant enough choice that you just have no idea not no idea but you have a very limited idea of how well that would suit you and who is the you that that you will become

[01:17:21] once you make that choice and so there it's not that you have no information you still yes you have some people like me saying having a kid is like not that you know it's not that

[01:17:32] hard it's pretty fun even in like when they're one and two maybe because I just had like a really easy kid whatever like you still have like people saying it and so you know that it is something

[01:17:44] that a lot of people like a lot of people bitch about and it and there's a lot of good parental relationships and bad ones and you know in the way that it affects me it's not that that's

[01:17:54] not relevant information it's just that there's also this big chunk that you just have no idea about there's this big black hole in it and that black hole makes the normal pro con thing the normal

[01:18:07] way you go about making decisions where there isn't that black hole it just renders it at the very least much less useful to you and so you have to at least admit that this is going to be a leap

[01:18:21] of faith one way or the other right so I think I think you were all like it almost seemed to me like you were making the points that I wanted to make which was yeah there's plenty of rational

[01:18:33] like there's plenty of information to make a rational decision like about having kids that you have access to that there is a like a big void of stuff doesn't mean that it's not no

[01:18:46] longer a rational process it just means like I it's still stuff that you have a lot of information about right just like the person who can say well I know that I don't like being

[01:18:56] you know constantly penetrated with sharp objects in the sex dungeon but I don't care how good the people who are in the sex dungeon say it is like I just know that I don't want to the same thing can

[01:19:08] be said about kids like they could say you could say I don't I know that you say it's amazing but I literally don't want to wake up at 6 a.m every day for the for five years in a row or

[01:19:18] whatever and so like I'll make that decision it's just as rational in both cases this episode of Very Bad Wizards is brought to you by BetterHelp you know the world has changed quite a bit since

[01:19:29] we started doing ads for BetterHelp and one of the ways that it's changed the most is that we now know that we can do a lot of the things that we used to have to do in person we can do them online

[01:19:40] and so it's sort of timely that we've been on this ride with BetterHelp this whole time when they first started it might have been a little weird to think about doing your therapy

[01:19:49] all online but now it might be the best way to go you can tap into professional licensed vetted therapists who you can trust it's really the largest network there is of these online therapists they can help you with a variety of issues depression anxiety your personal

[01:20:08] relationships trauma grief anger and more so with BetterHelp therapists you get the same profession professionalism and quality that you would expect from an in-office visit but with the ability to communicate how and when you want within 48 hours you'll be up and running

[01:20:25] talking to a therapist who is picked based on your needs all you have to do is go to BetterHelp and answer a few questions that they'll help you find the right therapist to match with you

[01:20:38] and you can do it over messaging or chat you can do it over the phone you could do video chatting it's therapy when you need it in its most convenient form so if you would like to make a

[01:20:51] change in your life start by going to betterhelp.com slash vbw and you'll get 10 off of your first month just for being a very bad wizards listener I know a lot of you have done this already

[01:21:04] we really appreciate that but if you're looking to start therapy at all give BetterHelp.com a chance go to betterhelp.com slash vbw and enter vbw at checkout let them know that you heard from us our thanks to BetterHelp for supporting this episode of Very Bad Wizards

[01:21:25] I guess like I mean I don't know I'm not you're hung up on this you know one is rational one is not I do because I think that's the thrust of her I agree but like uh I think the the part the

[01:21:37] non-rational part of it is you have to go with your gut a little bit about whether you want to take a leap and do something that will transform you and the way you are the kinds of values that you

[01:21:52] take to a decision you know to future decisions and the kind of values that that you have an embrace and because there is this big black hole of information you don't have the information

[01:22:04] you do have isn't enough where there's an obviously rational choice one way or the other and so it's just like do you want to do it or not and that's kind of a gut thing that's kind

[01:22:14] of like what does she describe it as like a like well what are you saying when you say it's a gut thing so I'll like I'll like I'm fine with everything you said it's just that you use

[01:22:25] the information you don't have and the rest is a leap of faith I don't know that there's like when you say like you just go with your gut to me that sounds like you're saying

[01:22:33] that you trust some information that's going on in like what I've got here's the concluding sentence the lesson I draw is that an approach to life that is both rational and authentic requires epistemic humility life is more about discovery and coming to terms with

[01:22:50] who we made ourselves into via our choices than about carefully executing a plan for self-realization that's like I think like I think I just agree with that like it is

[01:23:01] yeah I don't disagree with that but that's I feel like just like the feel good and sentence of what what she builds up as a much more controversial thesis about about rational decision

[01:23:15] but there are these people who view life and life decisions as carefully executing a plan for self-realization you know like into you know that's is what the self-help industry is kind

[01:23:26] of built this is how many people see themselves you know when they when they have a story about their life and the way they want it to go and they think they just have to make this choice

[01:23:35] and this choice that it's all instrumental and it's just not like and pointing out that it's not like that and that you're going to have different paradigms that you approach each kind of decision based on you know where you are and what experiences you've chosen

[01:23:51] is a good thing to recognize just so you don't think you can like game the system of life with your pure reason like with your just Kantian if that's all if that's all I thought she had to say

[01:24:04] I would be like fine like that we make forecasting errors or that our proton lists aren't keep minimizing that forecasting errors is forecasting errors are less than what she implies that's very minimizing like the that's why I said if that's all she means right then

[01:24:20] like then it would be a minimal thesis but that's not what that sentence implies and her view implies yeah like I I hesitate to make that last sentence seem like the accurate portrayal of what she argues about rationality and like yeah I'm stuck on this rationality

[01:24:37] like I just don't think it's irrational to make my decision based on like four out of ten facts versus on seven out of ten facts or nine out of ten facts like I just think

[01:24:46] I make it with four because I have four there's nothing threatening about the decision making process your values are going to change like this is the thing that I don't think you

[01:24:55] that I mean you acknowledge but that is threatening to this view that you can make rational choices based on your values about things that will radically alter your values in the future

[01:25:08] and so that when you look back on it a lot of that stuff a lot of the four out of ten facts or whatever that you thought you had turned out to not they they weren't even facts

[01:25:19] because you're not that person anymore and you don't care about waking up at 6 30 in the morning to take your daughter to school it's your favorite thing that you do in the day you know like it's

[01:25:29] it's a thing that you look forward to the most and then the rest of your day is just drudgery you mean a forecasting error I mean this is where you're just I mean look if that's the

[01:25:40] point like I didn't know if that's if that's the point that you're making is that for some things you don't actually realize that like you might like it well yeah like I I didn't know I'd

[01:25:49] like almond croissants before I tried them what does that have to do with the rationality of the decision-making process so point point me is something that she says that you object to well because I think I'm not understanding she says okay the main problem with transformative

[01:26:03] decisions is that our standard decision models break down when we lack epistemic access to the subjective values for our possible outcomes I don't think they break down as a result in cases of transformative choice the rationality of an approach to life where we think of ourselves

[01:26:16] as authoritatively controlling our choices by imaginatively predicting ourselves forward and considering possible subject to futures is undermined by our cognitive and epistemic limitations I don't think it's undermined I think we all understand that we have more or

[01:26:28] less information under some conditions and we go about our life saying like okay I'm not quite sure whether I'll like the roller coaster so I'm willing to take a chance on it I don't think

[01:26:38] anything is breaking down I think it's the same kind of decision that I'm making when somebody tells me like do you want to go to Ethiopia tonight like I literally mean that in in kind

[01:26:49] if not not in importance but in kind we're constantly making decisions with super limited subjective uh a super limited understanding of what our subjective value will be after those experiences and there's nothing weirdly irrational or breaking down of the process so again it's very

[01:27:08] hard to it's very hard to discern how much we disagree about this because like again I don't have a strong stance on whether you should describe this as a difference in kind or a

[01:27:18] difference in like a like a big difference on the spectrum of rationality and how much you can trust your rational decision-making process but it does seem like there is a big difference

[01:27:29] worth pointing out there is a distinction between choices we make where no matter what choice we make our values are going to be more or less the same we'll be the same kind of person uh one way or

[01:27:40] the other versus choices that we make where where our values like higher order desires all of this it will be will be transformed in ways that we currently don't like have access to how that

[01:27:54] will shake out like that is that is a distinction that's worth making and it's and it is a distinction in terms of whether you call it now irrational or just I can't like I can I can

[01:28:05] say this is rational and take the few pieces of information that paul bloom has given me but like I like but and and just make it based on that but there's this huge black hole and you know a

[01:28:16] lot of that could turn out to be forecasting errors as you like to dismiss them as so like I don't know why you think that's dismissive that's a huge it's a huge thing but psychologists

[01:28:26] figured out but yeah yeah I'm sure so uh but like that's a big distinction that is um you know like are we just about how to describe that yeah that's why over and over again I've been

[01:28:38] saying I think we largely agree on the importance of the the sort of understanding that these things are there my only disagreement but I don't think you ever cared about this like or what she says are implications for for decision theory like that's it that's my only

[01:28:52] ripple yeah not about like whether or not it even because honestly like most things that are different in quality are just some arbitrary line that we make that our difference is in kind right

[01:29:01] so like I think it's important all the humility stuff all of the stuff that she's talked about like the the importance of not thinking that you know everything that you're going to feel

[01:29:09] when you do I agree with all that I'm just sort of stretching this out for the sake of argument here because it's fun to watch you get mad but like I think that there is no but I think there is a

[01:29:19] core of this like if anything I guess I can boil my my claim down to this like I think she straw man's rational decision theory in order to like tear something down we're just fine like it's

[01:29:32] it's a stupid yeah and I might in some ways the way I might agree with you is not that she straw man's decision making theory but she overstates its value even for smaller decisions

[01:29:43] you know yeah I right yeah that's a fair way of saying it and again like I actually think that like the value in this book you've not even read it it's not in that I feel like I feel

[01:29:56] like she got she had to say something about decision-making theory because like that's what you have to do I think you can't imagine what it would be like to actually read her book rather than

[01:30:08] just a praisy and see a couple of talks like seven years ago and so that's what leads you to you know when I say you the praisy I was like you know there's going to be this asymmetry like if you

[01:30:19] read any part of the book you're gonna lord that over me and the truth is I haven't had time to read very much but we should have Laurie Paul on and yeah I actually think she would be a great

[01:30:30] guest yeah in fact we've always we've we sort of put off having this as a topic because we always thought it would be fun to have her on and then we just did it anyway because we needed a topic for

[01:30:42] this for this second for this episode but I think in in the sort of tradition that we try to keep of having guests come on and just talk about not necessarily like their shit like their book

[01:30:54] or whatever we could probably have her on she'd be a great guest to talk about anything I agree but given that you've been hating on her arguments and position this and I feel like she should have

[01:31:04] a chance to defend herself a little bit well I she should know that it's not personal no you know I feel like she is exactly the kind of person who would love to get in this argument so I welcome

[01:31:19] I welcome the ability to tear down Laurie Paul's position to her face I think that like this is just you know agree with Dave or agree with me I hope people think that this is like

[01:31:31] you know everyone's shitting on philosophy including me like a lot of the time like this is good philosophy and this is like a way forward you know of a kind that I'm not sure psychology

[01:31:44] can point to these days no I'm sure there's you have William James so that was good yeah I I agree that it's good philosophy um what we could discuss is she has a whole but she

[01:31:56] does metaphysics she has a whole book on causation we should just read that to discuss with her that's where I jump shit I understand causation as much as I need to before I die I like how poor philosophers you

[01:32:12] guys are all forced to write like at least one or two really dry boring books like on your area of expertise before you're allowed to just like write the book that you've always wanted to

[01:32:23] write are you calling relative justice a dry boring book I don't know I never bothered to read it that the worst thing is that that's true even of the book that you wrote a foreword

[01:32:35] no I read that whole book I feel like I actually don't remember it's a good question I'm I'm sure I read parts of relative justice if only out of duty that's your constant duty no I mean obviously what you're saying is right to some degree like

[01:32:49] you have to go more academic than you would like it's weird though that came a lot easier to me than that in comes to me now you know like I didn't feel like it was some massive sellout like something

[01:33:03] that I was like I actually felt like oh I'm actually now I'm sure there are some parts of it where I'll be like oh my fucking god how many acronyms are you gonna do that must be actually true in

[01:33:14] general so I might be just wrong in my assessment it must be that you're really excited about the specific topics that you have expertise in like look at Paul his first book was called how children

[01:33:23] learn the meaning of words right like it's just super narrow about that I'm a really boring top but I'm sure he was super excited about it I'm sure he was like I was actually just getting

[01:33:33] like how does that seems pretty cool actually well let's be honest the title is much cooler than probably the research it's just admitting that he hasn't read any of our books any of like books

[01:33:47] everyone's books I read I admitted I've been reading an rice's yeah right I sent you issue guru like like four issue guru books you haven't read any of them well you don't know what it's like

[01:34:03] to be me to be a non-reading philistine maybe I would like it to be an indigenous person these ancestors were well that this is I was actually going to make this connection but we

[01:34:16] should we have to go but like there is a sim there is a like a connection between this and our opening segment which is like in the same way and again I agree with both of it like I

[01:34:27] I think there is a way in which we can't understand the experience of being a black man or woman in America and you know our normal like decision making or just you know forms of evaluation

[01:34:42] break down a little bit maybe you would want to say no it doesn't we also don't know what it's like to grow up in Iowa which you know I think I would agree with in part two but like

[01:34:51] I'm like there's also a truth to it that yeah it there's also a connection with Paul's argument about against empathy which is so what is the nature of information that we can have but I think

[01:35:01] importantly what is the most relevant information that we can have but I completely agree with you about like this subjective sort of impossibility of really like all we can do is approximate

[01:35:10] based on our own experiences that's why I'm not just I'm not saying this to make fun of you that's why testimony does matter in those cases where I just take I have to take them at their word

[01:35:22] whoever it is that their experience is what they say it is because there's no way I can with any expertise talk about what it's like right and but or you have to give it more

[01:35:31] weight you know like a lot more weight than then then you would for you know like this guy the guy who wrote on having whiteness or like robin d'annis flow or something like that

[01:35:45] they just don't slap my pink monkey slap I wonder if he just goes around like to like all these like four hundred dollar night hotels and just like just kind of clicks his tongue

[01:35:57] why did you stop African woman talk to me these poor people he's like on his third martini and he's telling them and he's just like yeah okay serious question yeah if we could get that guy on

[01:36:13] would you be willing to talk to him I mean like if if we could just junk the episode right like if we didn't have to put it on like I would be interested in talking to this person like is

[01:36:27] he does he have a sense of humor does he get how just like just completely cringy all of this sounds and also just insane just like that you're crazy here's the thing when you make that

[01:36:40] decision to have him on yeah you don't know whether you're going to be convinced of his arguments by the end you might be full on like hating your whiteness right we'll be telling like Paul and

[01:36:50] yoel like no you don't understand like you've got to you've got to undergo his his analysis his therapy all right on that note all right join us next time on very bad wizards

[01:37:50] you