Episode 195: Jesus on Trial (Dostoevsky's "The Brothers Karamazov")

[00:00:00] Very Bad Wizards is a podcast with a philosopher, my dad, and psychologist David Pizarro having an informal discussion about issues in science and ethics. Please note that the discussion contains bad words that I'm not allowed to say, and knowing my dad, some very inappropriate jokes.

[00:01:09] Welcome to Very Bad Wizards, my name is David Pizarro from Cornell University, Tamler, the great philosopher Emmanuel Kant. He didn't write his critiques until his fifties. Today August 20th of the year of Our Lord 2020, you turn 50. What philosophy do we have in store for the next decade?

[00:01:33] Are you going to go back to zombies? Yes, I started with zombies. I'm going to end with zombies. Also yeah, I have transcendentalist theory kind of cooking up of ethics. Could you toss in some racist anthropology in there? Like a 50 year old white man would be...

[00:01:51] I feel like all my work has a little racist anthropology already. I mean it's legacy right? We come from a tradition. We're grandfathered and we're like Joe Biden. It's like he can't hold us to the same standard.

[00:02:09] So the other thing I was going to tell you is this morning I got an annoying tweet from somebody who was mocking us for our live stream, my live stream failure with Paul Blume where I couldn't get the audio right.

[00:02:21] And he called us boomers and my first reaction was like fuck you, I'm a Gen Xer. But then I thought, wait you're... What are you? I'm totally Gen X. I'm like 100% Gen X. That's right, I'm at the cut off.

[00:02:36] I just really wanted to know what the 70s were like. That was my other question. First of all you were born in like 19, so you're like five years younger but you pretend that you're... I know there's something about the milestone of 50 that makes me feel like even younger

[00:02:50] than normal. I'll tell you that the real aging for me came in late 30s to early 40s. I looked like a kid until my late 30s and then it started to look more like how other people look.

[00:03:07] That progressed for a few years and then I feel it's pretty much the same. It's not a big deal. Yeah, I feel the exact same way. There was some part of my... I was so proud all through my 20s to get carded at the liquor store and at

[00:03:20] some point in my mid 30s it just dwindles and people start guessing your actual age rather than... But you actually I think look better than you did 10 years ago. Yeah, that was also probably the height of just drinking and not eating well and not exercising enough.

[00:03:42] And I got in shape. It was actually because I turned 40 then a couple years later went to the doctor and they're like, yeah, I thought it was going to deliver but there was heart and so I got into shape and the drinking hasn't necessarily slowed down as much

[00:03:55] but maybe the binge drinking. But yeah, no, I feel better than I did probably seven or eight or nine years ago and so that part of it is not bad at all. That's good because my potential replacements for you are also getting old and so that's...

[00:04:13] Who do you have now? I know Paul, you would replace me right now like during this opening segment with Paul Bloom but who else? I try all the time to usurp. You know, I have a short list. Jesse Single comes to mind.

[00:04:29] He has a lot of Patreon followers. I know. We really... I think we've fucked up at least financially like we really fucked up by alienating a certain IDW. We podcasted our One Trick Ponies that harp on the same topic,

[00:04:47] develop a more radical fan base no matter what that topic is. And so I think we need to do now for the next decade of your life is be all Borges all the time. Yeah. It's a great thing. No, I know.

[00:04:59] Or we just go the other way and just be like, you know what? Mea Kulpa, Marxist critical theory is taking over every university. It's not STEM. It's not it's just it's all critical theorists now. No engineering. I'm scared for my job. I worry.

[00:05:16] So I should say in the second part of this episode we are going to be talking, which will be the book of the episode. We're going to be talking about the great brothers Karamazov, which is one section of the book, the part on the Grand Inquisitor

[00:05:31] and what's the name of that other section? The Rebellion. Rebellion. It's it's the most yeah, it is the most famous part of the Brothers Karamazov. But this is a good standalone episode.

[00:05:40] So even if you haven't read it or even if you haven't read it in a long time, I think you should still get a lot out of it. It's you know, we had what I thought was one of our best conversations of all time.

[00:05:53] Like I edited it recently and I thought this belongs on Mount Rushmore VBW. That makes me excited because I haven't listened to the edited version yet, which is always better than the original version. But yeah, we have that was super fun.

[00:06:08] And so so we'll come back with that. Are there any last words that you have in case we lose you within the next two weeks? I have one thing to say about my birthday that made, you know,

[00:06:18] a little pill easier to swallow turning 50 was I got from my friend who works out in LA at Gazaleon. He wrote for the Walking Dead for a while now writes for a Walking Dead spinoff.

[00:06:32] And he sent me a video of Wee Bay, Hassan Johnson, the actor from The Wire, wishing me a happy birthday. Get the fuck out. Yeah, I swear I'll show it to you afterwards. It was awesome and he gave a shout out to Eliza.

[00:06:49] Eliza was very excited to give a shout out to Jen and also to Very Bad Wizards. The. Oh, you got to get to send that to me. That's awesome. Yeah, that's awesome. Quick shout outs to your wife, Jen, daughter Eliza and the philosophy podcast. Very bad wizards.

[00:07:04] I know y'all doing out thing. He rising to the top. Yeah, I was a huge Wee Bay fan. So that was I love Wee Bay. I recently rewatched The Wire. Wee Bay makes it through most of The Wire, right?

[00:07:19] I think he makes it through all of it, although he goes to prison for life at the end of the first season. Right. That's right. That's right. I one of my favorite scenes in All The Wire actually is Wee Bay eating his

[00:07:29] like whatever meal, whatever sandwich he's eating and just copping to murders. Because why not? Right. He's already going for life. So it's like, yeah, I did that one. Oh, great. Happy birthday. Speak on behalf of all of our listeners.

[00:07:44] We wouldn't want you any any other way other than your old Ken Tanker self. And thank you for making me look and feel young. That's what I'm here for is to make other people feel relatively younger, even people who are like close to my age.

[00:07:59] Yeah, no, it's not that bad. And plus, you know those you curves, you know? Yeah, your happiness should be going up. It should be. Yeah. And I feel young at heart. So if any of our older listeners have any advice for how to live a happy 50s.

[00:08:14] Sean Nichols, he seems like he's just a happy guy these days. Right? He's very happy. I mean, he looks like he's 65, but he's very happy. Yeah, no, he looks. But he's really only in his early 60s. Right. I don't even think that. No, I know. Just kidding.

[00:08:32] He won't listen to this. So you will not listen to this at all. We can say all right. Well, we had we had some potential opening topics to discuss, but the brothers cameras off actually takes like a very long discussion. So we should move straight to it. Right?

[00:08:49] Yeah, let's get to it. We'll be right back. This episode of Very Bad Wizards is brought to you in part by BetterHelp. We'd like to thank BetterHelp for their continued support and sponsorship of this podcast.

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[00:12:53] Welcome back to Very Bad Wizards. This is the time on the podcast where we like to give our sincere thanks to all the people who get in touch with us in all the different ways that you do. You can email us, verybadwizardsatgmail.com.

[00:13:07] We've gotten recently just a ton of really nice emails, just either thanking us, saying something about our episodes, sometimes disagreeing. But if you want to join the conversation on our subreddit, the lively conversation and often funny conversations, people are posting very bad wizards related,

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[00:14:09] And I thought, you know, whatever it's been eight years and I never would have thought that at the eight year mark, I would actually be more convinced that we would keep going than I was like at the two year mark. Yeah, no, it's true. Me too. Yeah.

[00:14:27] If you'd like to support us in more tangible ways, you can find all the ways to do that at our support page, VeryBadWizards.com slash VBW support. Or you could just go to the support tab at the top right of VeryBadWizards.com. We very, very much appreciate there.

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[00:15:26] And our students this semester will be, I think, grateful that we are not just talking into our laptop mics. So yeah, so you can also go directly to Patreon at Patreon.com slash VeryBadWizards and you'll see that we have various reward tiers.

[00:15:41] We recently had someone, Tamler, email, I think he emailed just me saying, you know what you guys should do is watch dark. I think you'd really love it. And I said, well, funny you should mention that. Yeah, I pointed him to the two episodes that we have.

[00:15:56] We have T-shirts that that I love and that people seem to be liking. You can see that link as well to the Very Bad Wizard store on Cotton Bureau. I really love these T-shirts, just the color of the design and the feel, the quality of them.

[00:16:12] I would if I could, I would buy a shirt for everybody. Everyone seems like these. They really do. They're subtle. They're not, you know, they don't look like one of those T-shirts. You got it at conference five years ago. Yeah. So go there. We very much appreciate it.

[00:16:29] We also have as you might be aware, given the topic of this episode, we are doing a five part mini series on the Brothers Karamazov and we will be posting that on a service called Himalaya.

[00:16:45] And we will have more information and a link to that when it becomes available. This will be a five dollar purchase, but we're making it so that our five dollar and up Patreon supporters will get that will get access to that.

[00:16:57] And yeah, this is something we're doing sort of above and beyond what we're normally doing here. But we were so excited to be able to dive into that during these summer months and actually give it the discussion that it deserves. And even Tamla, after five,

[00:17:12] five like hour and a half recording sessions, I still feel like we're scratching the surface of that book. I know I do too. We've done now four of the five of them. But I guess we will have done five by the time this releases.

[00:17:25] But so far, I've been happy with all of them. I may be my favorite was the one that we're releasing for everybody right now, but they've all been really good. I've really liked the last couple that we've done as well. So yeah, yeah.

[00:17:38] The last one, it's the one that we're talking about this time is like clearly the one that is of most philosophical relevance. But there are other parts of that book that are just surprise, like surprisingly good in the sense at least

[00:17:49] that I didn't remember how good they were. And and I think overlooked by people who might just read read the famous quote unquote sections. The famous quits that are. Yeah. No. And so if you haven't read it or if you haven't read it in a long time,

[00:18:03] pick it up. It is. It's such a good read and it goes once you get into it, which doesn't take long. It goes pretty quickly and it's very funny and it's very moving. And it's deep. It is as deep as it gets. It really it really is.

[00:18:19] Last thing I'll say before I end this, thank you is you guys, if you have any suggestions about the sorts of stuff you'd want to see in the Patreon rewards, feel free to email us. We're always looking for for those suggestions because we like to do

[00:18:32] the things that you want to hear. And so so, yeah, thank you to all of our community for all of your support. Yes, thank you. Welcome to the second episode of the Very Bad Wizards Book Club, I guess, if we're going to call it that

[00:18:47] on the Brothers Karamazov. This is a second of five episode series. And today we're going to talk about part two, which I don't know, it's kind of the heart of the novel, I would say.

[00:19:01] And I I am I despair at how we're going to talk about this in one episode. I know this is you could you could do a whole five part series on just this, but but we can't so we'll do it. We'll do our best.

[00:19:18] So I'm Tamler Summers from the University of Houston. And I'm David Pizarro from Cornell University. So I'm just going to read a quick summary of this part. Then we'll just dive into it and go through it.

[00:19:31] And this won't be hard to find themes to talk about because they are the grandest themes and really all of Western thought. It's in some ways, Aliyoshia's part because he's present in virtually every scene with the with maybe one or two exceptions,

[00:19:49] even if he's more of a passive participant than an active one in those scenes. So it starts in book four, which is called in this translation, Strains. Aliyoshia is with Elder Zosima, who tells him to go out, deal with his family problems to the best of his ability

[00:20:07] and to stay his non-judgmental loving self. And he also promises Aliyoshia that he'll be alive when he gets back. So Aliyoshia goes out first. He goes to his father, who is in a more pensive, I don't know, subdued mood.

[00:20:21] But he tells Aliyoshia that he wants to live as long as possible and he needs money. He can't give Demetri any money because he needs that money to be able to have sex with younger chicks, even when he's old and disgusting.

[00:20:34] Like he thinks now he can get them with, you know, with a modest price. But when he's older, he's going to really need to pay for that. So then Aliyoshia goes outside and gets he gets caught up

[00:20:47] in a very uneven rock fight between five schoolboys and one schoolboy. And then Aliyoshia defends the single boy and he gets bitten on the finger for his troubles by that boy. Later, we find out that this boy has a grudge against the Karamazovs

[00:21:03] because his father was humiliated by Demetri in front of his son. And so that will explain the bite. So then Aliyoshia goes to visit Katrina Ivanovna, who is staying with Liza and Madame Koklakov. Koklakov. The year guess is good as mine. And happens to run into Ivan,

[00:21:24] who's also there talking very intently with Katrina Ivanovna. Katrina Ivanovna says to Aliyoshia she's made a big decision. She will never leave Demetri no matter what he does or how badly he treats her. Aliyoshia then tries a misguided attempt at matchmaking between Ivan and Katrina Ivanovna.

[00:21:44] And that doesn't go well and everyone goes into hysterics. And that is really what this part is mostly about. The word strains is, I read, an imperfect translation of a Russian word that means rend or tear or rupture.

[00:22:02] I was wondering it is it's a weird choice of word. And like given that this is a good translation, I could only imagine that they were just like, wow. Yeah, if we have to pick one word.

[00:22:13] I think I get it like rend, I think is the best word, but it wouldn't make sense as the title of a book because I don't think you know that the word rend really makes sense if only in context, I think, like rending your whatever.

[00:22:27] In any case, Aliyoshia then goes to visit the captain that Demetri humiliated in front of his son. And he has 200 rubles that Katrina Ivanovna offered for reparations, I guess. And he almost gets the captain to accept the money,

[00:22:41] but the captain in the end thinks it would be too humiliating, even though he could use the money because he leaves in this very pitiful lodgings with his very poor family. But Aliyoshia is convinced that he'll accept the next day.

[00:22:55] Aliyoshia goes back to Madame Kuklikov and gets engaged to Lise in a very sweet scene between them that I think I'd like to talk about. It's one of the sweeter scenes in what we've read so far. Then Aliyoshia meets Ivan, his brother, Adnan,

[00:23:12] and they have one of the greatest and most famous conversations in Western literature and philosophy really highlights, include the most vivid description of the problem of evil that I've ever come across and a dramatic encounter between Jesus Christ and a Spanish inquisitor about the cost of existential freedom

[00:23:33] and the seductive power of totalitarianism. After that, Ivan goes back to his father's, meets Meryd Yakov, who seems to confess that he's part of some elaborate plot, or at least he knows about some elaborate plot to kill Fyodor Pavlovich. Ivan goes to Moscow and Aliyoshia goes back

[00:23:50] to hear the dying words of the Haldar Zasimah, which are in some sense, if not an answer, maybe a counterpoint to Ivan's rebellion and the description of the grand inquisitor. So that's my brief summary. Again, I don't know how we can talk about this all in one episode,

[00:24:11] but we can't waste time. So yeah, did I miss anything? I don't think so. I think you hit all the points. You didn't talk about the description of weird old father Faripont who is set up as some kind of acetic monk who's an enemy of Father Zasimah,

[00:24:32] but we don't hear from him again, at least in this part of the book. Yeah, yeah. That is a very strange scene in the talking of the little devils that he sees. Yeah, he's sort of widely renowned as an acetic

[00:24:46] and he lives in the forest and he doesn't talk to any of the locals. But somebody from another place comes to talk to him like another monk, I think, and he opens up to him and he tells them about how the Holy Spirit visits him.

[00:25:01] And sometimes it's in the form of a dub, but sometimes it's another bird and how really wicked and evil all of the elders and the monks are who live in the monastery and that they have devils crawling all over them and they can't even see them.

[00:25:16] And this really seems like he's eaten some mushrooms from the forest, as he said. And yeah, he's having a bad trip, but it's also I think maybe thematically related to what will come later.

[00:25:33] So he has a very literal sort of understanding of what it means to have faith. Like you literally see devils and spirit, it's like you're hallucinating. Whereas Zosima and and Alyosha, I think, have a much more, I don't know, expansive definition or less literal definition

[00:25:55] of how you understand your faith. Both both less literal and just more balanced, I guess, like less extreme. Yeah. And more sort of I would I would almost say pantheistic because it's loving like every part of the world against all logic.

[00:26:16] This is one of the themes that I definitely want to talk about because the love that is constantly being discussed in this book, starting with the Catherine's decision that that even though Dmitri is rejecting her for Grushanka, she's decided that she will always love him

[00:26:33] and basically saying that she's going to stalk him for the rest of his days. And she'll like, prostrate herself before him and suffer all the humiliations. And she seems to get some sort of power over presenting herself as this victim.

[00:26:48] In fact, she's portrayed as having a fairly dominant personality so much so that that Aliyusha says that she would be a better match for Ivan. And we're and we understand that Ivan and Katarina do have feelings for each other or that Ivan has feelings for her.

[00:27:03] Or at least that Ivan has feelings. She's portrayed as something of a dominant personality. And it seems like here she's using her very strong personality to to like give this long speech about how she will she will suffer she for her love of Dmitri.

[00:27:20] It's pretty clear that she doesn't actually love like that's not. So this seems to be a perverted sense of that more pantheistic or transcendent kind of love that Zosima and I think Aliyusha stand for, though, right? Because I think it's the wrong kind of love.

[00:27:35] Yeah, I think this is the love that is selfish. It's a it's a selfish move on her part. Exactly. And she adds a love with an agenda. And I think what Zosima talks about is a kind of love with no agenda.

[00:27:50] You're not trying to prove anything to anybody. It's not a power play as it seems to be like you point out with Katarina Ivanova. It is it's just this I mean, what it is, is actually a little hard to pin down. That's part of the point.

[00:28:04] And there's and there really are different kinds of loves throughout, especially this section, different kinds of love. I just say like the constant brotherly love. Ivan talks about how he doesn't think he loved Aliyusha when they were kids.

[00:28:17] He's like, I never really felt love for you, but now I do. I love you and you kind of believe that everyone loves Aliyusha. But Aliyusha loving everybody else feels like a real different kind of love, like the love that you're talking about.

[00:28:33] Yeah. By the way, there's a lot of guy guy kissing. I guess that's a cultural difference. Well, there's two instances of guy guy kissing, one between Jesus and the Inquisitor and then between Aliyusha and Ivan. And Ivan. Yeah. So it's like also kind of incest. Yeah. But yeah.

[00:28:53] So one thing that's interesting in the first part, when he's with the elder Zosima and Father Paisie and that other weird monk, they in there are sort of words to him as he leaves.

[00:29:07] They both tell him not to be proud and not to hate all the those who reject you, disgrace you, revile you and slander you. And both of them say don't hate atheists, right? Don't hate materialists. Don't hate, you know, because they are even though this is where the

[00:29:25] science of the world is progressing. Father Paisie says they have but they have examined parts and missed the whole and their blindness is even worthy of wonder. The whole stands before their eyes, even in the movements of the souls of those same all destroying atheists,

[00:29:40] it lives like the spirit and it moves. So you can even find Christ and love in the atheists who reject him and God and all of it and only believe in a material world. I believe at some point that I can find it.

[00:29:56] He even says, you know, these are the people who have nobody else like nobody else prays for them. So you must pray for them. Right. You must love them because because they're yeah. And like in the extreme case maybe with Ivan,

[00:30:10] they themselves might be incapable of love, which they equate with hell. Like to be incapable of love is to be in hell. And in fact, Zosimha at the end says right, like that it is worse than you will beg for the flames if you are because at least

[00:30:29] I would distract you from missing out on love and the opportunity to love. Yeah. When he's talking about the the parable of Lazarus in hell reaching just begging for some water to wet his tongue. Throughout this is this this whole section is replete with New Testament delusions.

[00:30:51] It's very, very Jesusy. What is it like for you reading this? So the last time you read it, did you were you still a believer? You know, I was and this is going to sound dramatic,

[00:31:03] but I don't think it is because I think I've known this for quite some time. The discussion that Ivan and Alyosha have in the section called rebellion before the Grand Inquisitor, I think is what made me lose my faith. Wow.

[00:31:17] Like if I had a point to a singular, right, because there's always multiple things, but but if I had to point to a singular at least intellectual source of me stopping believing God, it is this because this is the problem of evil so so well put.

[00:31:36] Yeah, that that you even read the conflict. You know, apparently Dostoevsky really was an Orthodox Russian Orthodox Christian. But I I remember reading this the first time around and thinking I've been one like he's made Ivan win this one.

[00:31:51] He gave the best possible defense of the atheist position, the atheist and not only sort of from a logical perspective, but almost from a moral perspective. It is moral because, in fact, it's not even explicitly atheist because Ivan says, fine, I'll believe in God.

[00:32:09] I just disagree with this world that I reject it. I don't want to turn the ticket. I don't want to because and we'll get into that in some detail. And I think this is why, you know, the book starts out with Father Pacey

[00:32:22] saying that that, you know, there is a kind of duty even in those atheists, those who renounce Christianity and rebel against it are in their essence of the same image of the same Christ. I think Dostoevsky wanted to give the best possible case for being an

[00:32:41] eighth like moral case and intellectual case for being an atheist and really does it in a very in such a vivid way that you can't help but feel it. It's interesting because I probably read this the first time when I was in my

[00:32:54] I don't know, the closest I've ever been to like a new atheist like kind of a Cervic or atheist, contemptuous atheist have. And now I'm probably at my most like open to some sort of spiritual, I don't know, weird interaction. It's probably the drugs.

[00:33:13] It's the edibles, but whatever. And I, you know, when I read part through the last section, whereas Osama is describing it, even though I think there are some problems with it, there are times where I felt like, wait, am I feeling this on some other level?

[00:33:32] You know, like, am I am I connecting to this? This and partly I think it's because it's not that dependent on a Christian interpretation of God. That's a good point. I think that's an important point to make because I think that the love

[00:33:49] that Alyosha and Father Zosema are adhering to or like trying to put out into the world, I don't think depends on as you said, it doesn't, you know, certainly the target's faith should not alter whether or not you love them.

[00:34:04] But I think that this is a view that is even if it's built on the teachings of Christ, they don't focus a whole lot on that stuff. They focus more on the universal love. Yeah. And, you know, there's a point. What do you what did you think about?

[00:34:22] Well, OK, so Alyosha and Ivan are always pit against each other. And it seems, you know, Alyosha is the believer, Ivan's the doubter, but it's not really that clear, right? Like, Dostoevsky I think goes out of his way to show that these are young men

[00:34:33] who are still trying to figure things out. And at some point, when he's talking to Lee's, he says, look, maybe I don't even believe in God. Yeah. And he surprised that he says that. But it came from somewhere.

[00:34:47] And I think that this is these are two young men. You know, one of them is 23. The other one's what, 18? Something like that. And they're trying to figure this out. And I think they're both taking strong stances. But you but in my head, this is Dostoevsky's two.

[00:35:03] He's battling it out in his own head with the dialogue between these two. Absolutely. And also, I think he makes them that young for a purpose and draws attention to how young they are, because Alyosha says that about Ivan.

[00:35:16] I think this is probably a conflict that has been with him since his youth. And I think that that's why he's able to give such a sympathetic or at least forceful presentation of the Ivan view is because he feels that in him as well.

[00:35:33] And, you know, I have to say, I was reminded, you know, on the Alyosha's Osama side of a more kind of eastern, maybe Buddhist kind of all-encompassing compassion and love that really isn't dependent on belief in a way that I associate with Christianity.

[00:35:53] And I wonder if Eastern Orthodox, well, yeah, I don't know. Like I think there's some we've talked about this in the podcast before. There's some versions of Christianity that where belief is pretty much everything. And this doesn't seem like that kind of version,

[00:36:09] like the fact that Alyosha could kind of curiously note he's not even sure that he believes in God, but it almost doesn't matter because of how he acts. I think it's an interesting tension because they are talking about the New Testament left and right.

[00:36:24] They are like referring to Jesus and they are, you know, like reciting portions of texts. But I think you're right. And there is actually a part this is I was curious what you'd think. This is on page 319 of our manuscript at the very bottom

[00:36:43] when Zosim is talking about sort of the source of his love. And he's talking about his brother who was sick from consumption tuberculosis. And it was a very bad case. But right before he died, he seemed to be very, very happy and was talking about love.

[00:36:59] And that's an interesting thing to talk about in and of itself. But at the bottom, he says, all is like an ocean, I say to you, tormented by universal love. You too would then start praying to the birds as if in a sort of ecstasy.

[00:37:13] He's describing, he said and above that he says, my young brother asked forgiveness of the birds. It seems senseless yet it is right for all is like an ocean, all flows and connects. Touch it in one place and it echoes at the other end of the world.

[00:37:25] It struck me that this is both what you're saying about a more eastern kind of like this universalists, we are all one concept. But also that Freud might have read this and used it to describe the oceanic feeling that he refers to in the book that we discussed,

[00:37:44] civilization and its discontents that we did on our podcast. This is very much the oceanic feeling. Yeah. And it's one that you see repeatedly in its perverted form, maybe in an perverted and just warped form in the father.

[00:38:00] But then you see it in Zosema, you see it in Aliyoshia, or at least it's what Aliyoshia is striving for. And in a lot of the people in that last book where Zosema is talking about his life and the people he's encountered.

[00:38:16] And it seems like at a certain point, often when they're close to death, they start to realize that there is this opportunity that we have while we live to embrace everything in all its contradictions, to embrace and even Ivan says like the sticky leaves,

[00:38:33] the sticky spring leaves in the blue sky, it's like that this is something beautiful to acknowledge and not to not just at least until your 30 for Ivan, 30, which I want to talk about. It's sort of really interesting.

[00:38:47] And but it's this idea that really there is that to love the world. You have to love the whole world and every little part of it, including the birds. And you will perceive the mystery.

[00:38:59] Yeah, you'll perceive the mystery and and you'll do it knowingly in spite of all the things there are to hate about the world, the suffering of children. All right, we're jumping into like a lot of the big stuff.

[00:39:12] Yeah. Should we go should we go through the first part, which is more plot heavy and then go to talk about the Grand Inquisitor and the rebellion chapter, which are equally just mind blowing? Yeah, yeah, sure.

[00:39:25] Because I think there are some interesting parts in that first in that first all the alliogeous sort of jumping around running, running these errands with like this sense of a real sense of duty. Yeah. And not really getting much done in.

[00:39:43] No, no. At least in this part, right? Like he's not successful in any of the missions that he carries out, right? Right. He was really like trying to find Dmitri. Right. He fails poorly in that. That was his central task.

[00:39:59] But then he was also trying to give the captain the money. And then the end of the captain turned down the money. He was trying to get Ivan and Ketri and Ivanova to be together and which would free Dmitri. And that didn't go well at all.

[00:40:13] Yeah, he did get engaged. So that's nice. Yeah. And I didn't understand if we were to believe that this was like a like an engaged to be engaged sort of thing, like because it's not going to happen for another few years.

[00:40:28] And like Lisa's mom seemed to think that it was not nice of him to be making these plans. Yeah. I mean, they're not like sending out save the date cards. I don't think after this. But there is a there's a real sweetness about that scene,

[00:40:44] even though she's been this kind of, I don't know, antique, highly charged, almost crazed presence. I like you. No, I don't. Yeah, I do. Do you like me? Yeah. But she also shows herself in the scene where he declares that he loves her

[00:41:01] and he wants to marry her like she shows that she's kind of really smart and insightful. And in fact, both of them have this kind of insight into human nature. They're talking about the captain and why he turned down the money.

[00:41:16] And there is something about the way they're talking that that I thought, you know, they can actually be a really good couple. Yeah. Well, you know, we've been told that Alyosha is just really embarrassed about everything to do with the opposite sex and sex in general.

[00:41:35] And I was wondering whether or not Alyosha was confusing this love for everyone with romantic love for for Lee's. I couldn't quite tell if we're to believe that he could, that he had a mature sort of romantic love for her

[00:41:53] or whether he was just responding to her affections. And also the elder told him he should get married. And so here's somebody that declared her love for him like, OK, let's do her then because and this is one of the things

[00:42:07] that I wanted to talk about from last time. Is universal love incompatible with loving particular people? This came up in the last in the last part. And, you know, right now, Alyosha is at a place like where he loves

[00:42:23] his brothers in a different way than maybe he loves strangers. And he certainly loves elders awesome in a different way than he loves strangers. But once you have this all encompassing love, does that even allow for a kind of love for an individual like your wife or Lee's?

[00:42:42] Or. But right now, I think he's in that transitional, liminal place where he can make distinctions in terms of his love, even if there is a pull towards the universal. There's also a pull towards particular people. The elder is so Zosemai is sending him out, right?

[00:43:01] So under this elder system, I forget if we made this explicit last time, but you're basically it's an apprenticeship model, but where the elder dictates everything, every part of your life. You you do whatever the elder that you're paired with says.

[00:43:17] And he tells Alyosha that he's to go out into the world. And I think there's something there where that that is intersects a little bit with what Zosemai was saying about monks who are accused of withdrawing from the world rather than actually being in it.

[00:43:38] He says that people are missing the point when they say that about monks. But I do think that he's sending Alyosha out because that is also work that needs to be done. We need people out there interacting and actually loving individuals.

[00:43:53] Because that part that you brought up where there was a good quote last time, and there's a good quote this time about loving people in general is very different than loving a person in particular.

[00:44:05] In this case it was brought up as like it's hard to love any one person. I think Ivan says something like if you want to love people, they need to stay hidden, like not show themselves. And this is the challenge for Alyosha.

[00:44:20] I think the father's elder's awesome as he's at his is you can't say you love everybody without having defeated this problem, which is can you love these terrible, in many cases, terrible people. Can you actually love them?

[00:44:39] And does love mean anything if you just love the birds and the leaves and all people no matter how wretched as much as you love anything? What does that even mean at that point?

[00:44:51] Does love have some side of, by definition is love partial for it to be meaningful? That's something I think that's another problem that needs to be resolved in Alyosha's mind. In my notes somewhere, I swear I wrote literally like what does love even mean here?

[00:45:11] It's used across various contexts like love the birds and love the trees, love your brother, love the stranger, love people in general. These might all be one common thing that is being done, but I'm not sure.

[00:45:27] Well, I don't think there's an answer to that, but it is like what does it mean to love all the trees? It certainly seems like it's something very different from loving the person who's being an asshole to you.

[00:45:36] The other thing this could be, it has sort of ties to Augustine or like Siddhartha, the Buddha, where you go out into the world and have your earthly pleasures before you withdraw from the world and have this more beatific universal transcendent love.

[00:45:57] And maybe that's, so you could view this for maybe Zossima's, this is part of Alyosha's progression, but if that's true then that's I feel bad for Elise because she's just a means to an end at that point.

[00:46:10] She's a stepping stone for Alyosha too, and I honestly don't remember if they, you know, what happens between them. This is the nice thing about reading this sort of freshly. Yeah. Do you want to say anything before he meets Ivan and we can get into those parts?

[00:46:27] Is there any other, it seems very funny just how every, like after Katrina Ivanova says that she doesn't love Ivan and Ivan says she's never loved me. Katrina Ivanova goes into hysterics and then Elise says she's not in hysterics, I'm in hysterics.

[00:46:46] I'm going, and everyone is just, I mean it would be a very funny thing to view if they could do this. Just Alyosha just bewildered by all these people just in these crazed states of heightened, I don't know, like emotion and yeah.

[00:47:02] And just like speaking nonstop, nonsensically, Dostoevsky just does this great job at expressing or making the reader feel the frustration one must feel if you were trapped in that moment. And Alyosha is mostly just trying to leave at that point.

[00:47:20] He's trying to get out the door because he has stuff to do. There's one thing I wanted to say that gets touched upon a bunch of times and I think in this section especially, which is oftentimes Alyosha, in some cases other characters,

[00:47:42] have an intuition about something or something that's going to happen or about somebody. And they don't know where it comes from but they can't shake the feeling. And there was, speaking of strain at some point Alyosha hears that word or whatever it is in Russian

[00:48:00] and says, that's so weird. I had a dream and I woke up saying strain, strain. There is a lot of, it appears if Dostoevsky is pointing to a lot of unconscious stuff that's going on in these characters.

[00:48:14] And it made me think, there's no wonder that this is a favorite novel of Freud's because it really does seem that under the surface is where the interesting stuff is. Yeah, it taps into some very deep levels of human psychology and there's also this constant

[00:48:32] question of maybe this is miraculous. It's never explicitly miraculous but the book starts off with Madame Kokolokov saying that she, Zosima performed a miracle told this woman that when she got back she would hear news of her son

[00:48:51] even though she had given him up for dead after a couple years of not hearing from him and then she did. And so like where did he get that knowledge? It could be a coincidence. I think Dostoevsky is very purposely leaving that up in the air for us.

[00:49:07] And you know what one of the reasons that's important is because if you are to be made a saint you have to have had a documented miracle performed in your life. And so I think they're trying, it wasn't clear to me whether people were bending the truth on

[00:49:22] this in order to get Zosima appointed as saint after his death. Yeah, like on a technicality or something. But Zosima himself right when he bends down and last time to Dimitri.

[00:49:37] It's like he had some intuition that he describes this time something bad is going to happen to him. Alyosha also expresses intuitions of deeply distrusting Smerydyakov and he's not sure why. Yeah, and so Ivan also is sort of nagged at by Smerydyakov only later realizes why.

[00:49:57] Yeah, the other thing I wanted to talk about in this also related to I think Dostoevsky's keen understanding of psychology and Alyosha's too is the interaction with the captain, the really poor captain who Dimitri humiliated in front of his son.

[00:50:13] And just having written that book on honor and thought a lot about honor, just the delicate balance of what is trying to be done. First of all Alyosha trying to give the 200 rubles in a way that doesn't make the captain

[00:50:29] too ashamed to accept them. Then the boy and the really sad plight of this boy who desperately needs to know that his father isn't a coward and also needs him to demonstrate that publicly

[00:50:42] and is just tormented by the fact that he probably knows that his father can't do that. He can't challenge Dimitri to a duel, you know, the way the father describes it.

[00:50:52] It's so sad the kid is staying up at night this small boy who's proud of his father who loves his father and who wants his father not to be humiliated like this. And as bad as it is internally, he's also getting attacked and teased and mocked in school

[00:51:08] by the boys. And just the sensitivity that Dostoevsky has to all of that and that Alyosha has. And I kind of believe him that that was enough for the captain to trample on the 200 rubles.

[00:51:23] He made his point. He took his stand there and so when Alyosha goes to give it to him the next day, he'll feel like he can accept it. It seems plausible at least to me the way Alyosha was

[00:51:35] describing it. Yeah. And you get this sense that Alyosha really is a keen observer of human psychology but he's still so young that he's making some rookie errors. And one of the rookie errors was just getting a little too enthusiastic about giving the captain the money.

[00:51:55] Oh yes, right. Right. And so he knows that the captain would have accepted it at that point but Alyosha kept saying, yeah, and like you could do this and this and we'll give you more money. And at that point,

[00:52:08] it really turned. And I think you're right that in the long run this might be better because it gave him a chance to save face but he could have gotten him the money there.

[00:52:19] Yeah. It was a rookie mistake. That's a perfect way of describing it because he realizes where he aired and then he also... It takes almost immediately. And then also that the captain himself felt a little too eager to accept at first.

[00:52:31] And if he had just not offered the more money and more, he just got caught up in like the excitement of this captain being able to like get a horse for his and maybe even leave the town

[00:52:43] with his family on it, with his head held high. He got so excited that he went too far and made the captain too eager and then the captain realized he couldn't... He had to turn it down at that point.

[00:52:54] Right. And I think part of that excitement was so genuine for Alyosha because he had developed a real sympathy for the boy, for the family, which is obviously... The mother was completely

[00:53:08] disabled and one of the sisters was as well. They have very few ways to earn money. It's a very bad situation and Alyosha is getting excited because he cares. Right. Exactly. Like because he actually wanted the boy to be able to leave without getting mocked.

[00:53:28] And I think that got him too excited. But yeah, that was totally... I was totally thinking about you during this honor thing where the boy saying, when I grew up then I'll be the one to avenge you because... I'll challenge him. And then the boy even says like,

[00:53:42] you don't have to kill him. You have to just show him that you could kill him or that you stood tall. And that even comes back for Eldar Azossimha and his duel at the end of

[00:53:53] this idea that even if you're not going to kill somebody, you do have to stand tall and accept the possibility that you yourself could be hurt. That's really important for your honor, both privately but also publicly. Like that's what allows Azossimha to reach people is that he

[00:54:17] stood tall and he knew that. And he even went in with that intention is I had to show them that I would take the shot and that the reason that I was doing what I was doing wasn't because

[00:54:25] I was just too afraid to be killed. That's why I could forgive him or beg his forgiveness because I only because I showed publicly that I wasn't a coward. And that's so honor related.

[00:54:38] So like cowardice is one of the worst things you can be branded with in this culture and in many cultures. And that's a good transition because one thing Ivan says at the very beginning

[00:54:48] of the conversation with Alyosha he says in the end I learned to like I wasn't sure if I loved you at first or what I thought about you. But in the end I learned to respect you.

[00:54:58] This little man stands his ground, I thought. Observe that I'm speaking seriously though I may be laughing. You do stand your ground, don't you? I love people who stand their ground whatever they may stand upon and even if they're such little boys as you are.

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[00:57:24] Courses Plus for sponsoring this episode. So Ivan had been in town for three months. These are brothers who hadn't seen each other in years since Aliyah was a little boy. And for three months Ivan had just had not spoken to him and Aliyah was every time they were

[00:57:42] together in the same room apparently Aliyah would be looking at him with these eager eyes that Ivan noticed that clearly wanted. He wanted to talk to Ivan but he was maybe just too shy

[00:57:55] to do it. And he notes, Ivan notes that he noticed this and finally they're together at this bar. He calls him up when Aliyah is just looking for Dimitri and he says all right let's talk.

[00:58:05] Yeah and he also says this thing we alluded to earlier that he only wants to live until he's 30. He thinks like he has enough caramats of like life force in him. Like the father

[00:58:17] wants to live as long as possible just banging teenagers or 22 year olds until he goes to the grave. But not Ivan, he just wants to do this till he's 30 and yeah he thinks it's very distaste

[00:58:31] like in poor taste to live till you're 70. And he says even living till he's 30 he says is against logic. He says even though it's against logic I do want to live till I'm 30 which is sort of

[00:58:41] an interesting it's certainly going to relate to what he says in the rebellion chapter but yeah that's what it's kind of an interesting question. Why is it against logic to want to live

[00:58:52] at all and why does he just want to live until he's 30? What is it about the year that year? You know when I first read this I was probably early college definitely not 23. I thought of

[00:59:08] Ivan as an older person like 23 was old to me and I think that him saying that he just wanted to live till he was 30 it kind of made sense and now I'm like 30 oh my god that's so young.

[00:59:22] Why would you want to do it? I think that's just the foolishness of youth to you know that that inability that we have to know that we will want to keep living when we're 30.

[00:59:36] But I guess the question is it's not that he thinks like life as a 30 year old will be bad or worse than it is right now he just thinks you know it's like you said like that's the only

[00:59:47] tasteful time. I see what you're saying that when you're 23 30 seems like you're old to a certain extent but it's still a very bizarre plan. It is bizarre he says he wants you know like he wants

[01:00:01] to enjoy life and he's using this metaphor of drinking from the cup and at age 30 he'll smash it. I understood this kind of as like I want to go out in my prime you know I don't want to be

[01:00:14] you know Washington wizards Michael Jordan I want to be Chicago Bulls Michael Jordan this this ugliness of getting old. Oh so I don't think it's that I think it's a moral thing like

[01:00:23] I think it would be like a moral compromise and from his perspective right now to live past 30 it's already a moral compromise to live until you're 30 but once you get once you've been

[01:00:33] able to drink from life for that many years like at that point you're complicit if you you're like too complicit or something. Right yeah because later as he's describing that adults are all guilty

[01:00:48] maybe he does have a sort of this sense that you're more guilty the older you are just because you've been an adult for longer. Not rejecting like the the obvious injustice of this universe.

[01:01:00] That's right returning your ticket he's like I'm going to enjoy life a little bit before I return my ticket but not too much. Yeah so let's talk about this idea of returning your ticket or this idea

[01:01:11] of rebellion and because this is the problem of evil described in really very emotionally resonant and in addition to just like so systematically presented. Systematically yeah what I love how he starts how Ivan starts by saying sort of downplaying his own intellect and saying

[01:01:33] listen I have a Euclidean mind that's just a very straightforward way of thinking like I know that people there's some people who say yeah but like parallel lines might meet in the infinity I admit my brain can't I don't know what that means you know perhaps I'm dumb.

[01:01:49] I'm just a caveman. I'm just a caveman your world frightens and confuses me. Your non Euclidean geometry frightens him. So he starts with that like but I think what he's doing is something he alludes to later that making it plain so let's make this as plain

[01:02:08] as possible you might think it's stupid but it's a way of starting this on equal footing like we can all agree that this is bad like and then he starts right and I loved I loved I remember

[01:02:22] reading this the first time around I don't know why I loved it but I loved how he was like I collect things let me tell you what I collect right and he starts describing these newspaper

[01:02:35] accounts of children who had been you know horribly, horribly treated and he sidesteps adults completely yeah right which is just a brilliant move. It's like a philosophy paper at that line it's like I'm not gonna even talk like I'm gonna talk I'm not gonna talk about adults like

[01:02:51] I'm gonna concede adults if they suffer they deserve it they ate the apple they know sin I'm just like I'm not even gonna focus on them so you can have you can have adults which is a very

[01:03:02] like smart philosophically but also to like emotionally it is that and this part this book is about the sort of innocence of children and that we all sort of instinctively know yeah you're so right to point out that this is a very emotional appeal like a very but

[01:03:24] at the same time it's Ivan is not an emotional person he is an analytic person he is not one to be soft-hearted this is something that he is just he just believes and you can tell that his

[01:03:41] compassion for these children is there but that's not the point that he's trying to make the point that he's trying to make is that this is this is true evil and intellectually unjustifiable

[01:03:51] yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah for sure I want to before we go away from the Euclidean non-Euclidean geometry there's something about that that strikes me as a key metaphor for two ways of understanding

[01:04:05] faith as well so I think there is the the Euclidean version of faith might be like that father who sees devils and spirits and like that's the way you have faith because you actually see

[01:04:19] the things and then the non-Euclidean it's like intuitively we can't grasp it so there's and rationally we can't grasp it even if in some sense there is a non-Euclidean geometry it's not clear how we can like we don't have the intuitions or the conceptual ability to really

[01:04:39] understand it you know like I think about like general relativity or something like that like you can or quantum mechanics to some like you can read about it but you can't fully understand

[01:04:48] it because we're just not wired that way and I think when we get to how there's osama and that version of faith it's a more non-Euclidean form of faith that's interesting because I

[01:04:59] it's not that's not the how I would have understood if this is a metaphor I would have understood Euclidean as being a very pragmatic practical way of looking at the world and you

[01:05:10] kind of said that but but to me like the devils that father what's his name is seeing is not that it's more actually they go out in the world and I know when I see that somebody is suffering

[01:05:25] like you can talk to me all you want about eternity but what I see is this life yes I think that's right I mean that's certainly the way Ivan is using it as well as yeah that you can try to

[01:05:35] talk me out of it and tell me all but like look there is this girl who her parents for no reason five years old would just abuse constantly and make sit in like in an outhouse all night

[01:05:49] like covered in her like shit and like not have any idea why hear her hear her moans and not be moved yeah and and you know so he describes these like just ever increasingly horrible scenes of both children suffering and also the cruelty of adults towards them and

[01:06:13] and and also notes that the cruelty is kind of the point for them like that he there's this quote on page 241 it is precisely the defensive list the defenselessness of these creatures

[01:06:24] that tempts the torturers the angelic trustfulness of the child who has nowhere to turn and no one to turn to that is what inflames the vile blood of the torturer so they find like this kind of artistic

[01:06:37] delight in making this innocent trustful creature suffer and when you know that adults do that and you know that there are these children who have not even from the apple they have

[01:06:49] they're innocent suffer it that's like there might be a god but who wants that god like there's no there's no way and certainly in an euclidean way to accept that to want to be part of that deal

[01:07:03] right it's like you can tell me about n dimensional space but I live in three dimensions and this is this this world that you created is in three dimensions so you can talk to me all day

[01:07:14] about non euclidean infinity parallel lines meeting and but but you still have to justify this and it's unjustifiable that I that quote that you read reminded me of the the anecdote at the

[01:07:30] and I'm apologized to actual Turkish people but this practice that that Ivan describes of Turks who shoot babies in the face but they wait for it to laugh gleefully first it's the he says

[01:07:43] something very funny right afterwards artistic isn't it yeah but then he says look you might say oh that's the Turks their savages but and then he gives these horses let's go to Russia it

[01:07:53] doesn't get better you know it may get a little less savage in a certain sense but in another sense it's it's almost worse I want to read this quote because I think it it both gets at the

[01:08:05] sort of intellectual but also the moral case for rejecting God that Ivan puts I think pretty it's pretty compelling he says this is page 242 can you understand that a small creature who cannot even

[01:08:19] comprehend what is being done to her in a vile place in the dark and cold beats herself on her strained little chest with her tiny fist and weeps with her anguished gentle meek tears for

[01:08:29] dear god to protect her can you understand such nonsense my friend and my brother my godly and humble novice can you understand why this nonsense is needed and created without it they say man could

[01:08:40] not have lived on earth or for he would not have known good and evil who wants to know this damned good and evil at such a price the whole world of knowledge is not worth the tears of that little

[01:08:50] child to dear god so he's he's talking about I think one of the responses to the problem of evil which is you know in order to know the good you have to know the evil and to have a

[01:09:03] contrast between those two and he's pointing out that that is it's it's it's not worth it it's too high a price even you reading this sort of was bringing tears to my eyes and this is one of those cases

[01:09:18] where I have read obviously like we both have read plenty about the problem of evil and the various you know the apologists and in in this example and the sentences that follow I feel like

[01:09:33] Dostoevsky gave me more an understanding of why I would reject this response than yeah then any philosophical essay would have like a straight up philosophical essay this is this is this amazing

[01:09:46] right it's and and because I think it gets at like the moral and emotional and that the sort of intellectual irrational heart of the problem right like it's not just you know a reductioid absurdum

[01:10:01] that I can put in class put up in class and like seven premises leading to a conclusion it's it's like every part of you is understanding it I think like all your ways of understanding it

[01:10:14] are appealed to but not in a way that is cheating or is because these things really happen all the time more than we can possibly comprehend well that's the that's the other brilliance of

[01:10:27] of him there is maybe it's just me but there is such power to me in the way that he started telling these stories which is let me tell you I collect various things and these are

[01:10:41] newspaper stories that he's describing right these aren't Ursula K. Le Guin's like imagine there's a society and there's one baby that's being tortured what would you do you know I can talk

[01:10:52] about that with in the abstract and I can even justify a society like that this after reading this yeah it's just like fuck that right fuck you for even thinking that there is an eternity

[01:11:06] worth this little girl beating on her chest praying to dear god yeah he has newspaper articles this isn't a thought experiment this is real and in fact I think those are real newspaper articles that

[01:11:17] Dostoevsky had come across so he is he is and this is what I mean like Dostoevsky in spite of him being a believer is making the best case against it morally I think I mean that's

[01:11:32] what I take the rebellion chapter to be it is a moral as much as it is a logical kind of and in that sense like you said Ivan is not an emotional person and I think that's right

[01:11:44] but do you think he might have been at a certain like this has sort of disabused him of human feeling or maybe there is something about his lack of like maybe like a Paul Bloomway

[01:11:57] like his lack of being of emotional arousal allows him to understand the injustice in a way that maybe other people wouldn't I don't know yeah I think that this is one of the things that you know people

[01:12:12] people think of you know like utilitarians miscalculating and and cold and rational but I don't this is a case where just even the words that Dostoevsky puts in Ivan's mouth are so emotional yeah this is just something that Ivan has worked out in his head already

[01:12:32] so he is I think dispassionate in making this argument but he's dispassionate in a way not in a way that I think he arrived at this position because of a lack of emotion but rather

[01:12:47] he felt that emotion and it was dispassionate enough to draw these conclusions from it and even as we'll see create a small little novel that he memorized yeah even as he's describing it you

[01:12:58] get the sense that he feels it at some level you know even now so then a la osha it's such a compelling argument that a la osha just says it's not worth it first of all like he wants to kill

[01:13:11] he's he's like shoot the general that had the little boy torn up by dogs in front of his mom's like shoot him and also like it's not worth the tears of that girl yeah but then he says like

[01:13:24] you're missing out on christ who is supposed to redeem all of this right who loves in spite of all this sin and this is yeah this leads to the grand inquisitor chapter which is often

[01:13:36] exerted which is kind of interesting that you know to read this out of context versus reading it in context I think people probably do at least as much out of context as they do in the context of

[01:13:49] the novel before we go to the grand inquisitor I think it is important to highlight that a la osha really is a green here he does end by saying but you're not thinking of christ but that's a pretty

[01:14:03] weak argument because it's not really an argument you know the last I think the last thing that Ivan really asks him or like one of the one of the last things is would you agree to be the architect

[01:14:14] on such conditions and he's talking about the condition being that you have children tortured for the sake of eternity and and aliyosh is like no I wouldn't that's so big and he's being this is

[01:14:24] great about aliyosh is that he's being intellectually honest here he's not just trying to find arguments he is and not just intellectually but I think he's being honest at every level of his being right

[01:14:38] I think so in some sense Ivan wins this argument he doesn't get aliyosh you know the one thing aliyosh does at the very end is kiss Ivan you know if that's a reply but other than that it's

[01:14:54] Ivan's game here all right should we talk about the grand inquisitor because it's such a yes we've we've we've already been talking for so long about everything else but we have to we have to talk about this so so this is the Spanish Inquisition Ivan has constructed this

[01:15:10] fictional story obviously where Jesus one day just shows up in the 1500s while the Spanish Inquisition is going on and interestingly everybody recognizes him as such like everybody from the moment they see him they know that this is Jesus Christ and he's just walking around and he's

[01:15:28] performing miracles much like the ones that are described in the bible the grand inquisitor sees him and arrests him and you know puts Christ in jail and then essentially just spends this whole time

[01:15:44] telling Christ why he cannot allow him to be here yeah and why he wants to burn him at the stake the next day for being heretical which is such a great it's such a good yeah he's like you

[01:15:59] already did the stuff that that you did don't do more like that's Harris this is Christianity devouring itself like almost literally you know it's uh it's it's pretty remarkable and but I mean you know philosophically the reasons for why the inquisitor is doing this are pretty interesting

[01:16:18] and I think Ivan makes is trying to make just as compelling a case for why the inquisitor is right to condemn Jesus as he was making about himself and rejecting the god ticket in in the previous

[01:16:33] chapter and it is this this idea that what Christ has said that he brought for the world is freedom to choose good and evil for themselves and he he says that human beings just aren't wired

[01:16:48] in a way where that will lead to anything but just more suffering more injustice and like starvation and what we are wired in a way to want rules and law and order and miracles and bread and and

[01:17:02] some sort of defined purpose for life and if we don't have that it's just going to be chaotic hellscape and so what he sees his task is to give human beings all those things

[01:17:17] even if it means deceiving them even if it means making them give up their freedom and demanding obedience right and the occasional inquisition occasional inquisition exactly so it is very much kind of a proto dystopian kind of idea where like very much reminded me of

[01:17:34] Brave New World in what the inquisitor is saying that he is is going to give to human beings to like remedy what Jesus was trying to give to human beings because that was right it was a poisoned

[01:17:47] gift that and and he needs to take it away yeah he says he basically tells Jesus you don't fuck up you know you don't fuck yeah he uses the structure of this story of when Jesus was

[01:17:59] fasting in the wilderness for 40 days and the devil comes to him at his weakest and he tempts he tempts Jesus three times yeah and the first one is come on man you're the son of God like

[01:18:12] turn turn these stones into bread right and Jesus says no he just he doesn't he resist the temptation of of taking that easy way out even though he is you know 40 days without

[01:18:25] food at his weakest the second one is well why don't you just throw yourself off of this building that's the second one right yeah and you're like throw yourself off of this building

[01:18:36] and angels will catch you you're the fucking son of God right like they're not going to let you die angel will catch you and and you'll be fine they'll take care of you and everybody will know

[01:18:45] that you're god and he Jesus refuses this as well and then finally he says why don't you just you're the son of God why don't you just rule the whole world he shows them all of the kingdoms

[01:18:58] of the world he says just rule them yeah and he turns this down and you know as Christians like I was raised we're we're this is the devil tempting Jesus who has committed to these four

[01:19:11] days of fasting he's doing he's playing unfaithful we're told he's it's an unfair game Jesus is of course at his weakest of course all of these things are real temptations and Jesus must resist

[01:19:23] because if he had given in to any of those this would have meant his mission was a failure and the grand inquisitor is like those are the things that you should have done those are exactly

[01:19:35] the things that would have made the people you created happy right but instead you turned them down and then the crime I think is that he expected human beings to live up to that example

[01:19:47] but he's Jesus and human beings are human beings and they can't live up to that example they will they they will not turn down bread they will not turn down rule and law and order and

[01:20:00] this is the sort of unfair position that Jesus has put humanity into is set this kind of ideal that is impossible for them as earthly creatures to to attain right and more over the way in

[01:20:16] which he's doing this which is the devil's tempting him to essentially prove that he's God Christ is rejecting because that would be the easy way out right just like with Job what he wants

[01:20:30] is human beings to decide based on faith whether or not to follow him not because they might gain some material advantage like having free bread or whatever so so he's putting humans into this situation where they must through faith overcome all of those necessities and still believe

[01:20:48] in God he's given him he's given us this freedom and this freedom is is just suffering yeah yeah you know one of the things I think this is is a criticism of or at least a depiction of a

[01:21:02] as what Dostoevsky sees as a more Catholic understanding of how human beings can be in touch with Christ you need this mediator you need somebody that does have authority that's of this earth and it and it and it's not just every individual's free choice they have a structure

[01:21:19] they have popes and bishops telling them what to do and granting them a confession and and and setting up some sort of structure so that that is I think what the Jezeb you know this he's

[01:21:33] Jesuit I guess this grand inquisitor and the whole point of the church is to provide this bridge between you know sinful man and and God but Jesus himself didn't offer that and and in fact rejected it and so the grand inquisitor is taking at least as Dostoevsky is

[01:21:55] F. Ski is portraying it taking the kind of Jesuit Catholic ideal to its logical conclusion which is totality you know like all freedom is taken away from them right so that they can live

[01:22:09] in a way that is tolerable for for human beings and if and and and and like trick them into believing you know they can believe they're free like maybe they'll believe that this is

[01:22:19] freedom and and he says you know granted this people have to do this so there'll be a few hundred thousand who have to suffer you know because they're the ones who are providing the

[01:22:30] structure but the millions will be happy and you know Ivan is actually as he's telling the story he is making the grand inquisitor essentially say the devil was right he is saying I

[01:22:46] we didn't follow your path like this is 1500 years after you came here we built this structure but it's actually the path of satan that we followed and even give some a story in Revelation of writing the harlot who rides the beast and mystery is written on her

[01:23:04] and he's essentially saying that'll be us we are what you called satan and he was right and at the end of time people will recognize that we were right and just one thing to add to that he says the inquisitor says there are people who

[01:23:23] have to suffer and it's us because we know that this is all in some sense a big lie everybody else doesn't everybody else has what human beings need which is this kind of law

[01:23:35] and purpose and food and miracles you know fake miracles and but we don't because we know the truth we know that there is none of that that we're making it up the hundred thousands yeah that millions will be happy except for the hundred thousand of those who govern

[01:23:52] and so like we are in that existential place of not of uncertainty and and and free choice but we will suffer it so it's almost like he's the new jesus like suffering for humanity to

[01:24:07] and and you know and also in a way that is very reminiscent of a kind of utilitarian form of especially in that time period the kind of utilitarian utopia where yeah i think i think

[01:24:20] i read somewhere that dosiecki was like you know like the he just didn't like the communism of that was growing in russia but not yet like in member and notes from underground there was this

[01:24:31] idea of the crystal palace and that was this also this utopian ideal where everything was just run according to rigid laws about what would make human beings the happiest with all the scientific

[01:24:42] knowledge we had that i think this is a you know the kind of catholic version of that of that same sort of idea there it's really interesting it's just pitting this kind of radical existential freedom against suffering right i mean that's what and and he is

[01:25:02] he is rejecting freedom in the favor of having some possibility of human happiness and harmony and rejecting honesty rejecting reality in some sense of it's you know the i don't know like i teach brave new world and there's this discussion between the you know one of the people

[01:25:23] who run brave new world which is very much set along the lines of what the grand inquisitor wants where there are people who have defined purposes and very rigid structure and they're well fed

[01:25:32] and they get uh and there's just these people at the top that know that there is this other world of art and and love and monogamy that that only they know about the other people don't even know

[01:25:44] about so they don't suffer from lack of access to it but they do and so in some sense they are sacrificing themselves and i think this is part of every totalitarian sort of version of human

[01:25:59] happiness is there have to be people who know the truth in order for other people to be happy blissfully the secret yeah right um the noble lie like plate you know this is like play yeah

[01:26:12] the noble lie in in play does republic is the similar kind of thing but there are the people the philosopher kings who know the truth i haven't says um when just when wrapping up he says who knows

[01:26:24] maybe this accursed old man talking about the inquisitor who loves mankind so stubbornly in his own way exists even now in the form of a great host of such old men and by no means accidentally

[01:26:34] but in concert as a secret union organized long ago for the purpose of keeping the mystery of keeping it from unhappy and feeble mankind with the aim of making them happy

[01:26:44] and the way that this ends is he actually kicks he lets jesus go that's christ go right but he says but but you but don't come back because i will don't come back and christ kisses him on the lips

[01:26:55] doesn't he never responds he just kisses him on the lips and it's unclear what that kiss means and then aliyusha also does that to iven after he tells him that story so i have like i have an

[01:27:07] interpretation of what that means okay after your interpretation i just have a question too um my question if it just i'll tell i'll say it really quickly because it might have to do with your interpretation i wasn't quite sure whether the rebellion and the grand inquisitor how they're

[01:27:24] related are they supposed to be serving the same purpose or dual purpose in the for the sake of a similar argument um here's one way to understand it he gives the moral case for rejecting god and the rational case for rejecting god but then there is this

[01:27:42] objection that there is this kind of christ like response that you can make to that and the grand inquisitor is saying no christ has no help here you know he's one of the problems

[01:27:55] not he's not part of the solution he's part of the problem so that's one maybe somewhat simplistic way of understanding how they're related i i think part of the reason that human beings cause so much suffering is because they have this freedom and they have this lack of

[01:28:14] authority over their own actions if they don't know that god exists which most of the karamazov don't feel all of the karamazovs don't feel like they know then what is preventing them from acting according to their most perverse desires if they have perverse desires which they

[01:28:34] which all but aliyusha seemed to do or this all right so that is i think it's that freedom that the inquisitor wants to take away because it causes all the suffering described in the

[01:28:47] rebellion chapter maybe that's a better way of saying how they're related yeah yeah maybe i mean so i read it a little bit like here i'm giving you the moral the broad moral argument against

[01:29:00] if god exists against even people wanting to follow him and now here's my argument about why the church itself is corrupt and there's no there's no way out of it because you can get rid

[01:29:12] of the church but we'll just be miserable so like we're double fucks like both your belief in god and your adherence to the church are built on these wrong wrong ways of thinking yeah although

[01:29:26] i mean dostevsky is not a catholic or a jazooet i mean he's a russian orthodox which is pretty close to catholic is it yeah do that yeah it was just a split there was just a split in the catholic

[01:29:38] church and then the eastern the eastern have their own pope so they're all like so my understanding of his faith which is very minimal um i may be like reading something uh a little while ago for

[01:29:50] the last episode was that he didn't like the trappings of organized christianity and yeah so i mean i believe that he's just i think you just if you're christian in russia at that time you just

[01:30:03] were russian orthodox you know it's like but that's i believe that that that he rejected probably the structures of the church and this is actually relates to the the kiss in some sense if that's true i think that what dostevsky thinks the only response to this unbelievably well

[01:30:24] structured and compelling case against god faith maybe even living itself is kissing the world no matter what it is you know kissing kissing it in all of its in all of its horrors and in all

[01:30:44] of its glory so when he kisses that inquisitor after you know this kind of horrific speech that he gives it's i still love you in spite of uh in spite of what you've just told me

[01:30:57] i think this is what you know the zasima's brother does um once and and zasama himself in the duel there is this point where you love without reason and the kiss represents that loving

[01:31:10] with no real reason for love if you're pressed as to why you love you can't give an intellectual justification or even a moral justification but you embrace it nevertheless i i would like to

[01:31:24] to buy that view and maybe dostevsky even had that interpretation but in the hands of ivan that kiss seems to me to not be making elder's osma's point or all the osha's point

[01:31:41] i think this is why it's a good story it's so ambiguous because you can interpret it as just like the kiss that judas gave to jesus before betraying him and that kiss right

[01:31:51] before he walks out without saying a word could be interpreted as like fuck you you're going to you're fucked yeah yeah like you're no i fucked you like this this world that i gave you yep

[01:32:04] yeah you're fucked right now you peace out yeah you figured it out congratulations you still have to live here though right um yeah i think you're right in ivan's hands but when aliyusha does it i think he is re-interpreting the kiss in that way absolutely and may have

[01:32:22] interpreted it that way to begin with i mean yeah you get more resistance by aliyusha in this story than in the rebellion chapter yeah but in the end he realizes resistance isn't the way

[01:32:34] out of it it is that kiss yeah i think he reinterprets the kiss and when you said he may even think ivan meant that at some like deeper level than his conscious intention which is definitely not

[01:32:46] to have the kiss mean that but like right i mean because ivan then says goodbye kiss me once more yeah right like so ivan i think interpreted aliyusha's kiss as perhaps giving a different

[01:32:59] interpretation of ivan's own story that might be uh more edifying for ivan right yes and i think what lends credence to that interpretation is that he doesn't end this remarkable section he doesn't end the part there he ends it with elder azosama's dying speeches compiled together

[01:33:22] so we don't have time to talk about but it's interesting the way it's described that this is aliyusha's recollection and that he it's not just the dying speech but it's all these other things

[01:33:32] but i think the running motif in that whole section is this loving against all reason what you said it's an almost insane kind of love there is a it's a love that borders on lunacy and sometimes

[01:33:47] expresses itself in as lunacy yep yep and i think that aliyusha finds it sometimes hard to let himself to that lunacy to lend himself like to allow himself to go those places like he's described

[01:34:02] early on as not one who's prone to mysticism he's very realistic so he is having to learn this way of thinking about the world from zosama's speeches well yeah i mean it's a question of how

[01:34:16] mystical you have to be with this because you don't you so you don't have to believe in anything specific right you just have to love and and if you can do that like you can but you can be an

[01:34:28] i think you could still be an atheist even you know yeah but i think you're right that the i remember what i was saying now that there is this inability to rationally justify that love

[01:34:39] yeah that requires you to set reason aside and this is sort of a very like kirk agard was sort of like this where he was like you know obviously we use reason but when it comes down to to belief

[01:34:53] we just take that complete the leap of faith and reason has nothing to do with it there's the zosama's brother just to give an example of what you just said as he was dying says my

[01:35:07] dear is why do we quarrel boast before each other remember each other's offenses let's go to the garden let us walk and play and love and praise and kiss each other and bless our life and then

[01:35:17] in response to that the doctor says he's not long for this world your son from sickness he is falling into madness and and and so like i think dostoevsky is not he's very sincere i think about

[01:35:29] this love it is a love he's not being satirical or ironic about it it is it is sincere and yet he also sincerely understands that it might be crazy that it might literally be mad a form of

[01:35:44] madness and he's not going to resolve that for us right the the madness that the other father expresses at the beginning of this section where he sees devils everywhere is so different than

[01:35:56] zosama's brother where he sees love everywhere and that sandwich is you know that's the that's the you can either see devils everywhere or you can love everything right and you don't even have and

[01:36:06] if you if you love everything like they talk about the comely young man that he saw zosama when he was 18 years old who i don't think was particularly religious but just had this

[01:36:15] instinctive love for the birds and the fish and the mist and the river and the beauty of the world and the mystery of the world and it says for each blade of grass each little bug aunt goldenby knows

[01:36:30] its way amazingly being without reason they whit their witness to the divine mystery they ceaselessly enact it yeah and if you don't if you're logical about it you will end up

[01:36:41] being where ivan is i think maybe is yeah like you will be isolated you will be alone you will be incapable yeah and i think zosama sending allio shout to people like that because because

[01:36:51] in some sense they don't know they're alone they don't they don't realize it they they need they need somebody to show them this love you know i had an interest a thought that

[01:37:03] while you were speaking um that there is a love for life that is expressed by zosama his brother a real real love for life that is very different than the lust for life that's

[01:37:18] described in the in the caramazas like the the fjodor and to some extent dimitri who embraced life they embrace the cup but what they embrace it with is is based sensuality

[01:37:33] that's not that kind of higher form of love yeah and the question is why is that different or superior or better and here's where i have i wanted to ask so what the inquisitor says that

[01:37:47] human beings need is they need to obey they need to give up their freedom in exchange for the the kind of security and meaning and purpose and food that they crave and the price of that has

[01:38:04] to be their freedom and i think we are supposed to reject that right we're supposed to be on or if you are on the religious yeah i wasn't yeah i'm totally not sure what ivan what side ivan

[01:38:16] was taking but i don't mean ivan thinks you're supposed to reject it maybe he thinks you should accept it or it's a tragic dilemma that there is no proper solution right but i think

[01:38:24] from that aliyosha is supposed to reject that right like if he's yes he's supposed to reject that there needs to be this you know these priests that are deceiving mankind and and banishing christ from the world and setting up all these noble lies to make the people

[01:38:42] stupid and happy but then what do the elders demand of their novices it is this pledge of obedience where the elder can then tell them what to do and they have to do it so in some sense

[01:38:56] the elders are making the same demand that the inquisitor is saying that human beings need which is obedience they need to sacrifice their freedom now in one case it's for security and

[01:39:07] purpose in another case it's you know in this case it is for being at least maybe having access to this great transcendent love but in both cases it seems like you give up your freedom

[01:39:20] or do or not at least it seems like a tension that i will that i was puzzled by absolutely i mean i think it is a tension and i think that there is when when dosiefsky is describing the elder system

[01:39:34] and he's pretty ambivalent about it at least he makes his characters express some misgivings about that whole thing but even just being a member of a monastery is giving up your freedom and i think that's why the important step that elders osama lets aliyusha go i think that's

[01:39:54] an important step i think that he doesn't just let him go he tells him to go yeah he doesn't give him a choice and he has to obey because that's the deal it's like a contract yeah but he's telling

[01:40:06] you know he's like he's forcing him to go out and actually stop submitting to anybody right right he's like wow i took it as like uh get out of here i never liked you anyway like sit calm

[01:40:20] like way to get somebody to leave but like i if what you're saying is he wants to him to leave so that he can make his own choices and be freer that's what i reject because he says

[01:40:32] obedience fasting and prayer are laughed at obedience fasting and prayer yet they alone constitute the way to real and true freedom so he is defending the monastic life there by saying that

[01:40:46] it's the only way to get to true freedom is through obedience to this rigid structure now you're right that he's sending him out but he also thinks that unless you you take the step of giving up

[01:41:02] your freedom you're like one sense of freedom you will be isolated so you need to fully give that up and and you know this this reminds me of like the kind of play does view of for you know the

[01:41:15] positive liberty and negative liberty right it's like true freedom your true self is free when you're obey that's the kind of thing that bothered isaac berlin about playdough and these other more totalitarian visions of freedom but then this this is what it seems like sasuma is saying

[01:41:34] which i don't totally get because it seems like something does stevecki would reject so there's some other layer of this yeah i mean i think that the the distinction that may be being drawn

[01:41:45] here by dosiefsky is that the there is a debauched view of obedience that the church in the case of the grand inquisitor is doing and that is biopressing people and keeping them ignorant

[01:41:58] and i think that sasuma is trying to express that your true freedom will be arrived at when you get rid of your desires your worldly desires and you let yourself sort of be with god and

[01:42:10] submit to god's will and then and only then are you is your spirit truly free yeah and you're going in with eyes wide open right right and now i don't know that i buy that distinction but i think i even

[01:42:22] would say no i was that's just also what i was talking about right but i think that but i think that maybe ali oshan sasuma would understand this is very different than what the grand

[01:42:33] inquisitor was trying to do yeah i agree i think that's a nice distinction like it is a deformed view of right of obedience that's demanded and it's one that involves lies and it's one that

[01:42:47] involves telling giving them certainty where there is no certainty you know that's right that's right and giving them some sort of universal purpose when there is no obvious universal purpose exactly

[01:43:02] but you tell them that there is there is also like it is very mystical i think and or esoteric almost there's this i don't i didn't write down the page but i quoted it that is why philosophers say

[01:43:15] it is impossible on earth to conceive the essence of things sorry i'm laughing because i literally turned to that page too because i have that that sentence underlined it's page 320 yeah and it reminded

[01:43:29] me that sorry to interrupt your reading of it but it reminded me that um the dosy fski was a fan of Kant and he had read Kant yeah yeah and this idea that he says god took seeds from other worlds and

[01:43:42] sowed them on this earth raised up his garden and everything that that could sprout sprouted but it lives and grows only through its sense of being in touch with other mysterious worlds if this

[01:43:53] sense is weakened or destroyed in you that which has grown up in you dies then you become indifferent to life and even come to hate it so it is this sense of another world and it's not necessarily

[01:44:03] the christian kingdom of heaven but it's something that can allow this lingering maybe it's like this oceanic feeling maybe it's this i don't know this extra in the new realm yeah yeah the new

[01:44:17] mineral realm of cons or forms it could also be it's an illusion like to the forms in any case it's all there is a reality that you cannot perceive yes you only get like vague inklings of

[01:44:28] it being there and that is as non euclidean as you can get that is that is the opposite of what's keeping i mean this is what's keeping Ivan from being able to endorse something like that is if

[01:44:40] that's your source of joy in this life or purpose then i just don't see it like i'm maybe you know maybe your world does frighten and confuse me like this but this is and different and i reject it

[01:44:55] anyway because yeah it's too unjust and immoral right because like what is the numinal what is the world of forms what is the heavenly you know mysterious other what is that doing for that

[01:45:05] little girl exactly and so i think this is a conflict that is deep embedded in like life and also for dostoevsky and that's why i think he gives such compelling versions of both or if anything sort of makes the case against it at this point stronger because

[01:45:22] there is something that borders on i don't not fanaticism that's the wrong that's too pejorative but just insane about the love that zosema is describing it is a love that is

[01:45:35] seems disconnected from i don't know like yeah yeah and you're you're right that i think that this is this can only be written by somebody who not only has thought obviously a lot about the

[01:45:48] problem but who who's actually conflicted because there is you don't get the sense that he's mocking either of these positions he writes so compellingly that i can see if you're already leaning toward one side you might think that side one yeah right exactly um right yes it's it's

[01:46:07] brilliant all right we should this is i mean if we had to do one that was long this was the one to do this would be exactly so it's like two two chapters that are the most as you said some of

[01:46:20] the most profound things written ever yeah all right well we will i hope like there's not a letdown this the rest of this book well you know for a murder mystery it's no murder yeah there's

[01:46:34] not a murder so i think we'll probably get that in the next section but who knows we're just here for the ride we are diving in a leap of faith uncertain embracing the uncertainty in the mystery

[01:46:50] all right join us next time for this on the very bad wizards brothers caramans of mini series all right uh yo i'll and paul thank you for taking two minutes to really appreciate the life of tamler summers yeah

[01:47:50] yeah you all you have something to say yeah i was i i actually to be honest i i'm not like kissing his ass here i had no idea he was turning him he looks so it youthful like it must be fueled by his

[01:48:05] inner rage it does it does clear the skin somewhat i mean he he is he does seem useful he is something like a kid uh no i was telling him this as we're recording today that um he looks

[01:48:18] younger now than he did when i first met him when he was like drinking copious amounts of bourbon and not exercising at all yeah well it's the podcast sponsorship money going for you know uh

[01:48:28] stem cell but it's that's why rich people live longer paul is actually 102 yes it was a book it was some good book deals i got to get a big stock of the blood of healthy young people

[01:48:45] and every six months they take away my blood and give me new blood it really it's very refreshing so so so what role would you say tamler plays in the podcast is like

[01:48:56] perfectly 50 50 what is he the straight man are you the straight man are you i've always thought of myself as the straight man but but um tamler because he's always the one opening the podcast

[01:49:06] and sort of directing and saying like see you guys later i think he's the spiritual leader but i'm the power bottom i think many people view you as a long-standing guest on the podcast

[01:49:19] introduces you and every oh you're having to start it again you know it's really nice of tamler to keep having david that yeah did you guys did you ever talk about role assignments or did you

[01:49:29] just sort of naturally fall into that not at all but for me i was like i was the reluctant uh one to join um but he's like clearly the the the driving force in terms of the one who is motivating

[01:49:44] me to to do this and i think that we fell into a natural groove of me responding to his outrageous things um and then every once in a while i'll say something that's outrageous and people like

[01:49:58] will be will be you know it's a board that i said something outrageous i'm like he says outrageous shit all the time yeah but you're used to it yeah is it a plan dynamic between you two that

[01:50:10] he's extremely online and you have no idea what the shit is not not at all i i mean i can't i said early on like i said i can't stand politics so if i can avoid all of that stuff um then i will

[01:50:25] paul i don't remember telling you this but we were talking about your podcast you all and how at first when you would come on as a guest um you were quieter uh you were sort of like i felt like

[01:50:37] sometimes i had to coax you to give your opinion but now with mickey you're just like slapping him around sometimes yeah well it's like stepping into somebody else's relationship right when you're the third you you want to like respect those boundaries you want to know your place you

[01:50:52] don't want to just like jump in there and take charge uh whereas with mickey yeah he and i now we know where we're at you know mickey is mickey has the funniest way of forcefully holding zero opinions

[01:51:10] you like swear that he's opinionated but you realize that he's not really yeah yeah yeah yeah you know they're like silicon valley saying strong opinions loosely help yeah he just like takes that to the logical extreme now paul you're like the the podcast you're like the um

[01:51:28] you're like the center square of hollywood squares you like show up on everybody's stuff um haven't you been convinced yet to have your own to do your own i don't know it seems like i i see it

[01:51:39] done well so if you guys and just seems like a lot of work i mean at the technical level at the editing level so it's a lot of work because i'm really happy that you guys do the

[01:51:50] work and just dropping in paul's an interesting type in that there's no sense in which you pull punches or don't speak your opinion but you're so amiable when you say that i have slipped sometimes

[01:52:03] actually on your podcast and we were talking a bit about um about a guest you had on who for the purpose of not slipping yet i won't say who it was but but we were making uh we were kind of

[01:52:14] mocking him and then and then um he tweeted about it and he was listening i felt so bad it never occurred to me that anybody would listen to it yeah i feel like you learn that

[01:52:26] lesson pretty quickly that if you're talking about somebody they're probably going to be listening to you i don't know if i've learned it yeah maybe paul i've always been struck by the way you and

[01:52:39] you know the one other person that i know of who does this is actually barack obama um talking that is that is that is the only time in my life i had such a nice complementary comparison

[01:52:51] it's almost always steven and i am very good continue on very this is boris johnson really we're going i the ability to talk in paragraphs such that if you transcribe what comes out of your

[01:53:11] mouth it is a coherent set of sentences that would seem totally reasonable if somebody had sat down and typed them out and then somebody who like i lose track of my own sentences like where

[01:53:22] they started by the time i get to the end i just don't know how you do it and i i suspect that you kind of just gripped everything that you're gonna say sneakily and then you sort of have a

[01:53:32] fronctor off to the side or something i was kind of reading it out um no thanks i i you know now i'm gonna be totally in our particular course just to make just to make your point in

[01:53:45] everyday conversation i'm not like that i'm not my best behavior when a lot of people listening i try to be coherent and make sense but but i really am as you guys know in everyday conversation

[01:53:56] the kind of guy who started talking in an after a while i say so okay i don't know why i'm telling you the story now but this this is this is tamar's day this is tamar's day that i was

[01:54:10] this story probably has to be cut out but i i know i told this to paul but i don't remember yoel if i told you that the person who who commented on that subreddit when somebody asked

[01:54:20] who is the most eloquent public intellectual that you know and so there is tamar told me this story he saw his name on some subreddit at you know so a bunch of people are being listed i'm

[01:54:33] sure paul was on there i'm sure sam was on there and then somebody put tamar summers and uh somebody replies and says you know i love tamar summers but putting him on the list of

[01:54:44] most eloquent public intellectuals i just don't think fits and the guy replies and says no no i know that was the joke and for for tamar to tell me that story was just like a little slice of the

[01:55:01] i think the the sweetness and the humility that doesn't it's not obvious on on the podcast you know it was a it was a touching little moment that he was willing to tell me this

[01:55:10] terrible story about how that's amazing so i'll end on that note of uh tamar i think you're more eloquent than you get credit for um at least when you write a happy birthday

[01:55:23] and uh thanks paul and yoel for for talking to me about tamar and yeah happy birthday oh that was nice that was nice