Episode 172: Are You Free (to like the Chappelle special)?

[00:00:00] Very Bad Wizards is a podcast with a philosopher, my dad and psychologist David Pizarro having an informal discussion about issues and science and ethics. Please note that the discussion contains bad words that I'm not allowed to say and knowing my dad some very inappropriate jokes.

[00:00:17] Play the volume loud as you want to but don't touch my levels now. I got them set just like I like.

[00:01:08] Just a very bad wizard. Welcome to Very Bad Wizards, I'm Tamler Sommers from the University of Houston. Dave, what does it actually mean to be equal? I'm David Pizarro from Cornell University.

[00:01:24] When I remember to say my name is because I don't have an actual answer to your question. How can you not have an answer? A ready prepared answer to that question. Okay, ready to go.

[00:01:36] I guess it depends what you're equal to but my first thought is that being equal, this isn't a funny answer, but it's just come to mean being good. But there's a lot of shit I don't want to be equal to.

[00:01:53] Like almost, by nature a comparative term but it sounds now like it just means while everybody's equal that means like, I can imagine a little kid thinking for the first 10 years of their life that equal just means good.

[00:02:04] Wasn't that, remember that short story Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut where they had this society that handicapped people? Yeah, totally. So that everyone could be equal and the point of that was just being equal on its own isn't necessarily good. Right.

[00:02:25] That reminds me though there's a bunch of studies that try to look at what kids think about this, like what do kids think of as equal?

[00:02:33] And it's actually if you're going to try to answer the question of like what the origins of the concept are I think that's a good way to do it.

[00:02:42] But little kids are surprisingly sophisticated about like when you deserve a free sort of like when you deserve a pass or equality of distribution or quality of outcome.

[00:02:52] But primarily like they pay attention to whether or not you pulled your weight like from really early on like whether or not you deserve that. So is this about fairness or equality?

[00:03:01] It's about I think the studies are about fairness but it's trying to I think answer in part the question of what kind of equality or equivalence kids care about.

[00:03:17] So do they because you could imagine that kids are just straight up communists like equality of outcome or of like independent of effort, quality of distribution. So it's related but I don't know. This is the least funny answer I think I've ever given to an ear question.

[00:03:34] Well, it wasn't like it wasn't a question that would necessarily. I should have just said dick size and left it at that. Yeah, dick size is what it means to be equal.

[00:03:43] No, I asked it as my opening question in part because I forgot to until 30 seconds ago come up with one but also because that is a line that stuck out to me in the new Dave Chappelle special that we're going to talk about in the opening segment.

[00:03:59] We don't fully know what the other person thinks about it right. Right, right. We sort of saved our because I didn't watch it that right when it came out and you just watched it.

[00:04:11] And I tried to like not read too much about it before I watched it other than we heard that people reacted really negatively to it and just together our thoughts about it. I didn't do what you did. I did read about it and I never do that.

[00:04:27] I never read about a work of art before I watch it but all the sites that I like to go to like the ringer, the Atlantic, Vox sometimes vulture they all wrote about it and they were bright. Bright Bart that's how I found out about it.

[00:04:42] Right, that's your I'm sure they loved it right. I got an Amazon Alexa and first thing in the morning.

[00:04:49] But the reason I then like I wasn't going to watch it if you or at least I wasn't going to watch it soon if you hadn't told me to because like the way they described it in these sites with people that I generally respect.

[00:05:07] They made me not want to see it like not because I was worried about being offended, but they made the special sound like Chappelle had some sort of agenda.

[00:05:16] So I'm thinking okay so he did this special to bitch about cancel culture and PC culture and the reaction to his last specials on Netflix. And you know me I don't like when people whine about PC culture like and especially don't like when comedians do that.

[00:05:37] But then I watched it because you told me to and it I don't know like it was nothing like the way it was described to me. Yeah, so yeah, no go ahead.

[00:05:49] Well I was just going to say like of course it wouldn't be like it's Dave Chappelle he's an artist he's not he's not Dave Rubin or Brett Stevens or somebody you know like this is a guy that like he's talking about someone who got upset so quickly and Brett Stevens.

[00:06:06] We could do a whole opening segment on that. Wow.

[00:06:11] Yeah, so I actually came at it because I hadn't read anything about it and so I watched it and I was having the reaction that makes me kind of understand why these thought pieces came out afterwards saying that oh like he's being reactionary about all the cancel culture because I wasn't expecting it.

[00:06:30] So it was more about that than I than I thought it would be and he surprised me in how directly he was he was sort of goading the audience. It's funny I did not know it's we had totally different expectations. Yeah, I think that's why.

[00:06:51] But like I just didn't see it that way. Well I mean there's a point where he explicitly starts mocking the audience and his white person voice. Yeah.

[00:07:00] Which which you know we're saying like who do I sound like he's like you did something bad before now I'm gonna ruin you. Yeah, right.

[00:07:09] And I have to say sort of independent I think we can both agree on this like before we get into the nuts and bolts of like whether or not there's fair criticism and what that criticism is is primarily we want comedy to be judged on its funniness. Right.

[00:07:26] That's like the whole fucking point. And and that's to comedy is is specifically I think we both always thought as a as a sacred arena for people to practice that art form.

[00:07:41] And more so than probably any other public figure you're given free reign to say crazy shit as long as it's funny. And that said, I found this to be slightly less funny than the other Chappelle specials.

[00:07:56] And I think that I found it to be slightly less funny because he does seem to have feelings about this like he seemed legit to like care a lot about what was going on in a way that I don't know he usually has a distance and the distance makes it funnier.

[00:08:17] Like it was it was too close to home and you could tell and that just to me made it slightly less funny not because it was offensive.

[00:08:23] So I agree that he has feelings about this and his feelings might not be that far off from what people think they are.

[00:08:32] But what I thought that he did was wrap all of those feelings and the stuff where he's directly addressing it into the larger comedy structure of his whole routine and the whole set. And that it made sense.

[00:08:51] And I thought a lot of it especially maybe the first half was really funny and it was not that mean spirited like that.

[00:09:01] I also kind of expected it to be more mean spirited than it was about like, you know, the LGBTQ stuff was if anything kind of a warm bit.

[00:09:14] You know, if the part of me that agrees with you and then and not and maybe can understand the reaction to it was maybe some of the me too stuff which there was a few little funny bits in it.

[00:09:30] But but it wasn't it just didn't fully land for me and there are a couple other things that don't totally land. And I say slightly less funny than the other ones. To me, Chappelle is like that.

[00:09:43] But he's he's my hero in terms of comedy and Chappelle being slightly less funny. I still find hilarious and there are plenty of times where I was laughing out loud.

[00:09:52] And I think that and the only reason I say slightly less funny is because in those particular moments like I especially when he's saying to the audience that's you. That's what you sound like.

[00:10:05] There was just a little bit of bitterness which I'm not used to Dave Chappelle expressing in their comics who's like express persona is bitterness, which is fine.

[00:10:14] It's just that it seemed a little off the Chappelle who certainly talks about so many things with with care like stuff that he cares about especially stuff about racism in America but always with like that that distance where he kind of can't he doesn't.

[00:10:33] He's never going to let it bother him like he's not he's never going to fully let it bother him. Yeah, I mean I kind of felt that way about even that even that most direct looking into the camera looking at the audience.

[00:10:44] But he knows this first of all he knows that audience certainly doesn't feel that way and you know that leads into the Michael Jackson stuff which is some of the funniest stuff in the whole show. And you know obviously it's it's hugely inflammatory but he understands that right.

[00:11:05] He's like I'm a victim blamer. Like if you if you tell me our Chris Brown hit Rihanna I'll be like what does she do if you tell me Michael Jackson raped some kids I'll be like well what were they wearing. Yeah, right. Right.

[00:11:20] It's it's stuff that that he knows is he's designed it as sort of the like a design a sentence that would be the most inflammatory in today's culture for the specific purpose of seeing if people would get really upset.

[00:11:34] I don't think that like well I guess I don't like I don't think like he's trying to get people upset. I think he's just like I'm playing this part right now.

[00:11:44] Well that's what I mean like that's in design part of his design was to be that like one of the beautiful things about his performances or his worked out material is that he is telling this.

[00:11:54] The is it's thematic and it's a it is a narrative and there is a reason why he adopts this persona but here's what so there was an article that I read on a website called Two Smart Brothers.

[00:12:05] Yeah, I did you see that one is the one like the worst white people. Yeah. And and there they say something that I don't think is entirely unfair.

[00:12:15] I don't like I don't think that I think they're just wrong but the author there says that what Chappelle is doing is trolling his audience. I think that's the wrong take. I can see why somebody would say oh it sounds like Chappelle is trolling his audience.

[00:12:30] And if you believe that then his jokes here are really he's showing animosity toward his audience. So if you believe that he's really trolling then then I can see why you would be not happy with this.

[00:12:46] I would still say that like well whatever you can't get that mad at a comedian like I'm just genuinely believe like you can get a bad at what a comedian does in his or her life.

[00:12:57] But to get mad at a comedian for what they say on their set is bullshit to me. Yeah right but but it wouldn't be as funny if you thought it's funny because I went in with the expectation that that's probably what he was going to do.

[00:13:09] It wouldn't have totally surprised me if he had although I think that's just kind of think about it hard enough. But I just thought from the outset oh no that's not at all what he's doing this is like these jokes these jokes that he's telling even the most

[00:13:25] inflammatory ones he's doing that to be funny. He's not doing it to make people mad. He's not doing it to start a controversy. He's doing it to be funny and most of the time it is really funny.

[00:13:36] Yeah so okay so I think I don't think he's being hostile to the audience either. I think it's in that moment I wasn't quite sure as I was hearing him say that in his white voice but so I don't I don't think he was.

[00:13:49] And I think that you know Chappelle is the style of comedy where he's trying to point out in an artful way like not with an in your face set of statements

[00:13:57] but he's trying to point out something that's true and maybe some inconsistencies and make you know he's a sharp he's a sharp reader of what's going on in society.

[00:14:06] And I think his whole Chappelle show was was so good at pointing out the kind of bullshit that's going on when it comes to race in America that that's what that's like so that's the bar that I expect you know he's not a one liner.

[00:14:22] He's not Mitch Hedberg. He's not just being funny for me. He's being funny because you're like oh fuck that's true. And so I'm holding him to that standard. So I'm like OK is it true that everybody is being a little bitch the way that he's sounding right now.

[00:14:36] And maybe it is true but I'm convinced now that he's not being listener hostile in the way that I thought as you say like I actually think he's being pretty. He has a heart.

[00:14:48] There is a warmth to Chappelle where you don't think that he's not caring of the people even the people that he's he's mocking. And if anything I think he he's maybe a little too willing to take the perspective of bad people.

[00:15:08] I mean I think that's what he does to hilarity when he says shit about like our Cal you know like when he says that in the Q&A. That might be the funniest thing in the whole. We shouldn't ruin it. Just now we're not going to run it.

[00:15:26] We're going to make sure you watch the app. It's like you have to go through all the credits and then there's a Q&A.

[00:15:31] I think it's a very long winded way of trying to get to my point which is like here's the way in which I think he might be purposefully saying inflammatory things that are funny.

[00:15:39] One not just to point out what he thinks is truth and two not just to protect the interests of rich people that he's friends with which is another accusation that he's that is floating around that but but I think what he's doing is a super smart.

[00:15:54] This is his third Netflix special of a three special deal.

[00:15:58] I think that he is he is being super strategic in going out and saying these things so that if people don't want to listen to him they'll ignore him and he'll go out on his own terms so that he is not a Kevin.

[00:16:14] He's not Kevin hearted out of comedy. He is saying like look this is a test of the sort of immune system of my audience.

[00:16:23] If you're OK with me making jokes about little boys spreading their buttholes for Michael Jackson then then be my audience and if not like cool right but but like I think he did it very explicitly to tease apart the wheat from the chat from his audience.

[00:16:41] So I have a slightly different idea of what he's up to here but like I think if you're going to write about this special and I don't think any of the people they mentioned it but I don't think any of the people pose this question and took it seriously.

[00:16:56] Why does he start out with that Anthony Bourdain line so he comes out interesting that you're going to say that because I was going to start saying I'll let you finish but I was going to say why does he start out with that Prince song and we might be making a similar point but go right.

[00:17:09] Sorry. So and you're right that he starts out with the Prince song and focuses on the line in it and he says it's the key line trying to run from from run from the destruction. You know I didn't even care.

[00:17:23] Then he says good people of Atlanta we must never forget Anthony Bourdain killed himself and then he goes a little like this isn't funny.

[00:17:33] Like he goes into a little like the best job show business managed to produce and still he hung himself in in a French like luxury suite. Why do you think he led off with that.

[00:17:47] Like to me that is a that kind of thematically ties what he's doing in the special but I want to know before I give my idea what do you think.

[00:18:00] You know it's funny I was so stuck on the the lines of Prince that I didn't reflect too much on why he starts with that joke.

[00:18:07] I was curious to whether or not you had any feelings like even gut reaction because I know you were a huge Anthony Bourdain fan but I want to know how resilient your spirit was. But I could take it. I heroically. You are a moral hero.

[00:18:24] I think that what he's saying I mean this is a trait but like it's a let's take perspective like let's let's never forget what perspective means and how easily somebody could perhaps be.

[00:18:41] I don't know like a lot lose to think that your life is miserable as Anthony Bourdain means perhaps you're out of touch with what it really means to be miserable which is completely unfair to mental illness so I don't not.

[00:18:52] I don't think Dave Chappelle is saying it that way but but that's sort of what I think about this the reason that he's saying he had a wonderful life and he like that's not suffering.

[00:19:04] Yeah so I have a almost the opposite take to me he leads off with that and he falls up with this funny story of a friend who just had a real down and out like up and then down and out story and he never thought of killing himself that.

[00:19:19] When you're looking at people and you're looking at what's okay to joke about it what's not okay to joke about him and who's really suffering and who's really happy.

[00:19:30] You can't go by these outward signs fame celebrity wealth like what your job is but you already more right than I was sorry I just wanted to interject thank you you're already more right than I was.

[00:19:44] It's it's so much more particular eyes to like individuals and you can be something you can look to the whole world like you are just the luckiest person on earth and actually be suffering tremendously which is why we and I think this connects to some of his me to or the PC backlash stuff.

[00:20:05] We have arbitrarily chosen this these categories of people that we're getting mad about comedians making fun of and that just ignores the fact that there's this whole range of ways we can either be happy sad advantage disadvantaged.

[00:20:24] Yeah so that that to me is what he's going is doing in that.

[00:20:28] And there's yeah no I like that and interpretation who knows right like he might he might be saying this as well but one of the things that I was thinking as you were saying that was that he also.

[00:20:40] I think one of the themes in Chappelle's comedy is the resilience of African Americans in it throughout history and I think another thing that he might be saying is.

[00:20:53] Look at how somebody who has suffered like my black friend who had got shit on like that how it wasn't even a consideration of his to complain in this you know and and to like seriously think that life wasn't worth living that maybe.

[00:21:14] Maybe in the context of Dave Spells other comedy what he's he's saying that black people in America has suffered have suffered so much that this isn't a thing this wouldn't even like the thought the thought wouldn't enter your mind to complain about that or to think that your life should end because of that and

[00:21:31] maybe that's another way in which he's pointing out that especially you know and I think this is one of the things that he's saying about LGBTQ people is that they are resilient in a way that that these jokes would hurt a third party more than it would hurt them right you know.

[00:21:51] And then he talks about like that transgender person who thought his that stuff was hilarious and I think you're right actually that he says something very much reflects what you're later in the show about when he's talking about poor white people and he says you know poor black people are exactly the same except poor white people think like what's going on why am I poor like I shouldn't be poor and that.

[00:22:21] Just thought never occurs to poor black people.

[00:22:24] And again it's like that it's it's what you're saying it's like they don't have the expectation that would allow them to get really upset about their circumstances like his his his friend as opposed to Anthony Bourdain but I but I don't think he's dismissing the fact that Anthony Bourdain was suffering it's just like it's all a package.

[00:22:46] Yeah and I don't think so either.

[00:22:48] And that gets yeah you're right I think and it gets to the heart of what I want to say in defense of Dave Chappelle which I think could be it could be that this isn't the case like it could be that he has lost any empathy with the with the people that he's making that he's making jokes about.

[00:23:06] And if that were the case I think he would cease to be as funny and you know look like I'm not a member of any of the disadvantaged groups that he's mocking.

[00:23:15] If you're offended you're offended and like no one can take that away from you if you think that you didn't like his jokes then don't like his jokes but I do think that it is actually his his comedy comes from a pretty deep understanding of what it means to be shit on and and not like this is in the you know this isn't some people

[00:23:35] that he's a piece of social justice that he's working on they're just jokes but I think his jokes depend on a real understanding of like like the dynamics between the lesbian gay transgendered bisexual people.

[00:23:48] Like he's capturing something really funny when he's describing they're all riding in a car and that thing that he's capturing is not something that that would be easily accessible if you didn't actually have some pretty good knowledge about the people in those communities.

[00:24:03] And good relationships with good relationships right yeah no I totally agree like that's what I mean about that being a kind of a warm bit because they have their own little you know resentments and disputes you know it makes it sound like a family. Like.

[00:24:23] Exactly exactly this way as any comedian he might have jokes that don't hit aren't as insightful or that even that even betray some some ill feelings towards certain groups that but but all in all like I think as we've said before I mean you're kind of making when you you're banking a lot on what you know about a comedian when you hear them say this when you hear them say these jokes and I think you know we we have a

[00:24:50] We've had to come to terms with this with Louis CK because of what Louis K does that mean that we can't have faith in him as somebody who can make these jokes maybe not but Dave Chappelle to me has not he's not lost that ability yet.

[00:25:02] Not at all I actually think the way people are writing about it is it shows a fundamental misunderstanding about like the form that they're writing about it is a it's they're writing about something that's an art and they talk about it as if it's

[00:25:20] like a like a speech or like an opening segment on like the same Harris would give or something like that.

[00:25:29] Like you know for all the people who don't think it's funny that's totally fine but at least approach it in the spirit that it is given in the spirit of the form which is it is a it's a comedy set it is a well structured comedy set that

[00:25:47] that doesn't represent the obvious or superficial agenda that it might appear to now.

[00:25:55] So let me ask you let me ask you this because I I mean I tend to agree with you but but I don't want it to or at least I don't believe that a comedian by just because they're a comedian that they are beyond reproach for their jokes so I think that there are

[00:26:18] ways in which you could cross the line in comedy.

[00:26:22] You know I can't think of any off the top of my head but but there is there's an interesting feature of comedy which is that that line is almost part of what it means to be a stand up comedian in in sort of as we define it in modern society like the

[00:26:38] the the birth of modern stand up comedy is is like you if you don't play with that line.

[00:26:46] You run the risk of not being funny like I but I agree I don't mean that they're beyond reproach for their humor it's just that you should approach the form as the form and not as some sort of like op-ed or something yeah

[00:27:03] I here's the last thing I want to say about it if you know the last third of it is kind of making fun of the opioid crisis and they're like poor white people and they're sort of level of entitlement but again showing that same quasi empathy

[00:27:20] but also ripping into them. If that had been all he had done.

[00:27:24] Like I don't think a lot of these you would have gotten a lot of these same reactions and I think that is also a kind of hypocrisy that he's exposing it would have been okay if he was making fun of the people that you think it's okay to make fun

[00:27:40] of yeah but it's not okay if he makes fun of people who you think are have and that goes back to that Anthony Bourdain thing it goes back to the what does it actually mean to be equal.

[00:27:51] I think he is to the extent that he's philosophically interested in something there it is exposing those kinds of not fine grained enough ways of looking at the world and who it's okay to make jokes about and who it's okay not to make jokes about.

[00:28:06] Yeah I think that the sort of progressive left cultural like elite are they don't know what to do with someone like Dave Chappelle and because he clearly doesn't follow along you know he's like a libertarian in the political not only by analogy where you can't put them in one or two of the categories you

[00:28:31] sort of need to like have another way of assessing them he makes people uncomfortable because he doesn't follow along party lines and it's unclear you know the whole time you're sitting there like which side is he on which side is he on which side is he on

[00:28:43] and if you're listening to comedy that way then then lost its fun. That's like listening to the right way.

[00:28:49] You're listening to find out what team what team he's on and I will say this that thing that you bring out about about up about the white opioid crisis is spot on I haven't seen anybody jump to defend the.

[00:29:02] Poor white people who are addicted to opiates and I don't know if that's because those aren't powerful people and nobody cares or because because he did a better job of showing sympathy.

[00:29:13] You know he's he does a really interesting thing in the special where he gives you something and he takes it away so just when you're like okay he's on the right side he says something super like.

[00:29:22] Blocked up to not make you comfortable with it but if there's a point which he says where were you during the crack epidemic in the black community and you know it was a sickness.

[00:29:34] Just like it's a it's an epidemic now as a sickness it was an epidemic then as a sickness as well and that's there's no don't do drugs like.

[00:29:44] Yeah that was one of the most poignant things he said like there where is the just say no campaign for white people addicted to opiates and I think again like Dave Chappelle.

[00:29:55] He didn't disappoint me with his ability to point some of that shit out now you might disagree you might disagree about the abortion shit that he said whatever like hope find disagree.

[00:30:04] The last thing I'm going to say though is the the Prince song where he says gonna run from this trying to run from the destruction you know I didn't even care is I think that Dave Chappelle might be bordering on nihilism with his sort of frustration at the culture.

[00:30:20] Like I think that he genuinely might not care anymore. Like not about the people that he's talking about but just about like being a comedian about dealing with it.

[00:30:34] Well she shouldn't care because he's beloved and he has these Netflix specials that and he is you know and I think he knows that like I think he get like if he played the oh I can't say anything now like I'm going like.

[00:30:49] If he played that card it would be bullshit because aside from a handful of people at the Atlantic and Vox and Vulture and you know vice or wherever.

[00:31:03] I think most people like he's he's a beloved comedian and maybe some people are disappointed with this one but in general he's very successful and he just doesn't like he should be not getting too worked up about the.

[00:31:18] Cancel culture and all that stuff and whatever happened to you know yeah which is what I was worried about but I felt like he understands that.

[00:31:30] And he's playing with it he's playing with that you know preconception and he's playing with what's going on in the media and all the debates but he doesn't really care.

[00:31:41] Yeah and one thing that I that that is I think very like good to remember about this is that. Chappelle when he walked away from the Chappelle show because of what he perceived of as is sort of. Baked in racism into the way things are being done.

[00:32:00] Because of like a guy like a camera guy laughing at a joke for the wrong reason or something. Yeah and you could call him you could say that he's the most sensitive person of them all like he walked away from but but he walked away.

[00:32:13] Not to make a big deal of it he walked away and didn't didn't speak to the media for a few years and he walked away from like a billion dollar deal. So this was this was not just him getting offended.

[00:32:28] This was him saying like this is not this is not a part of what I want to be of all people like he is sensitive to the real damage that is going on in society and like the real harm like.

[00:32:40] I think that he should be given a pass for like you know we should laugh at his jokes. Well when they're funny yeah which I did. Again just last thing watch the epilogue because there's some really good stuff in there.

[00:32:54] The stuff he says about Trump and why he doesn't talk about Trump is kind of brilliant. All right when we come back we'll talk about a new development in a famous study on free will.

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[00:35:55] Again simple habit dot com slash very bad wizards. Thank you to Simple Habit for sponsoring this episode. Surviving several gunshot wounds is a wake up call and a miracle in itself. No doubt. What were your thoughts as you lying in the hospital recuperating from the gunshots?

[00:36:17] They shot me. Straight up. Straight up. I just can't make the name really. Really. Welcome back to very bad wizards this is that our very favorite time of every show at least some shows. What does that say? I don't know.

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[00:41:08] Okay before we get to our main topic we're recording this much later we recorded a second segment last time and it just was really bad it was ugly. It was.

[00:41:23] Yeah not because we fought not the good kind of bad that you guys are going to want to hear but just the boring kind of bad like we just.

[00:41:29] We weren't we weren't into it you could hear the unenthusiasm in our and we care about our listeners way too much to put that out. Yeah that's actually true I mean like I really felt bad about putting that out. All right so.

[00:41:44] Today for our topic like Tamler said second try to topic we're talking about a classic so this is an Atlantic article that just came out based on some research I guess it was just published that is tackling this.

[00:42:00] Classic set of experiments by a neuroscientist named Benjamin Libet that for a long time have been hotly debated but for some people used as a great example demonstration of a case in which we think that our conscious intention is controlling our actions is actually shown at least purportedly to not be the case.

[00:42:25] And these were a set of studies that Libet did in the 80s using a particular quirk of brain activity that had been discovered 20 years before so basically the big picture is this that.

[00:42:41] Libet showed that when people were given the simple instruction to perform a motor movement so like raise your finger or taps tap your finger.

[00:42:51] That if you're recording brain waves through EG you could actually see that before the participant consciously had the realization that they were going to initiate the action so the instructions are whenever you whenever you want.

[00:43:09] You can decide to tap your finger so he had had people actually say when it was they decided by looking at a timer right in front of them that. Few milliseconds up to one full second beforehand the brain seemed to initiate a surge of activity.

[00:43:30] And that this predicted whether or not the people were going to tap their finger. And so importantly this was revealed as happening before the person reported that they had ever had the conscious voluntary phenomenology that they were choosing to lift their finger and this was taken by many.

[00:43:49] Although Libet was a little more careful himself about this but it was taken by many as being sort of a paradigmatic example of how our sense of freedom of agency of voluntariness is an illusory sensation because after all we can see that the motor activities.

[00:44:10] Presumably the thing that's about to initiate motor activity has started to happen before you even thought that you were going to make that choice. It has a great opening line in this article the death of free will began with thousands of fingertips. That's right.

[00:44:25] So what this article is reviewing is some recent research showing that that brain activity that was called the labeled by the neuroscientist who discovered it the readiness potential because I'm not going to try to say that. No, it's. Stupid fucking German. Try to say it. Better shaft potential.

[00:44:46] But it's better shaft potential. Shops right shots potential. Yeah, you have to you have to like buried shafts potential. I get the anti-Semitism has to come from the back of your throat. Well, you can I can't you can do that like naturally. It brings a very tough potential.

[00:45:08] My voice gets shrilly when I do my German. So this readiness potential was actually in of itself an interesting finding.

[00:45:17] It was a couple of neuroscientists these German neuroscientists who gave it this name were trying to study the brain in a way that they thought was more interesting that rather than measure how external stimuli influenced brain activity.

[00:45:33] So like flashing a light or showing you a picture or touching you or whatever to see how it would affect the brain in this sort of classic input output kind of way.

[00:45:45] They were interested in brain activity for internally generated choices like they wanted they wanted to explore voluntary action in this in the sense of self initiated action. And so they wanted to find a way to see what was going on in the brain when people were making decisions.

[00:46:05] So in some way they were actually looking for the wheel part of the brain, right?

[00:46:11] They wanted to to see if you could measure that and what they what they found was through a pretty interesting technique was that this activity seemed to coincide with voluntary choices that were made by participants in the lab.

[00:46:29] Strap to eG's but you couldn't see this activity on its own.

[00:46:34] What you have to do is because this little readiness potential is actually a pretty weak brain signal what they had to do was record a bunch of instances of voluntary action and average all of those and then you can start seeing the spike in brain activity because it's like an order of magnitude smaller.

[00:46:56] And when they did that by looking at the full recordings of people before and after they made choices, then you can see that spike. And it's 20 years later that Libert took that spike and tried to use a more precise measurement of voluntary choice.

[00:47:10] And that's when he showed what he showed. Okay. So the new results that this article is describing, they give an alternate explanation of what the Barachschaft potential, what it's actually doing and what it's reflect.

[00:47:30] But let's just take for a second the LeBat experiments under the assumption that that is what the Barachschaft potential. Right. Let's assume that it is readiness potential as in it is a motor, it is a precursor to your motor, your choice for motor action.

[00:47:46] So I think we both see the same, and we probably discussed this in our earlier episodes of Free Will.

[00:47:51] We probably both believe this that this was never a great piece of evidence for or against Free Will or at least not anymore of a concern than the more conceptual arguments.

[00:48:05] Right. I mean, I would say even stronger like it is, it's baffling to me that this is something that people thought that this was going to be a threat to Free Will.

[00:48:18] And here's why. What would Free Will have to be? Like what did these people imagine Free Will was? And what would it have to be neurologically in order to accept that it existed, that it was real? What would they find?

[00:48:36] Right. So I guess the idea is you have your brain just minding its own business, doing the things that brains do and then the person would report, I want to tap my finger and that would not have any kind of precursor or anything.

[00:48:58] It would just all of a sudden right following that initiate like brain activity. Is that? I think so. OK, so let me get I'm going to be the most charitable I can to why people might think this is the way.

[00:49:11] So I think that it does hinge because if it's just anything in the brain, then that has to obviously be the case that that's ridiculous because obviously something has to happen in your brain in order to make an intention happen.

[00:49:26] I think that it might really depend on whether you believe that this readiness potential is a marker of motor activity because if you believe that it's a marker of motor activity and not something like a marker of judgment or choice or

[00:49:44] or voluntariness, then maybe it's a little bit more threatening because if you saw that the part of your brain that was that made choices. What do you mean by motor activity?

[00:49:56] So I mean like the part of your brain that is responsible for for for controlling your your body right. The motor cortex.

[00:50:07] I can see where if you if there was a good way of seeing like this judgment part of the brain or some other part of the brain that wasn't the motor activity, then it might be closer to the well, of course we would expect that something happens before the motor activities initiated.

[00:50:25] But this is sort of like it could be saying you were before you were done pondering whether or not you're going to move it, your body was starting to move it. Okay, so to go back to my question then what would they find if free will existed then?

[00:50:45] Yeah, well that's the feel like you've gotten to the the the heart of the question because I think you there's no I think that one of the deep deep problems with offering any empirical evidence for the absence of free will is that unless you can come up with a conceivable empirical finding that would be supportive of free will then it's a fool's errand.

[00:51:11] I think that in this case though it would be less distressing if it was that you see the intention part of the brain light up and then you see the motor movement in your fingers.

[00:51:24] So you see when you're aware of the choice you see that part light up as if this is yeah like this is yeah as if this is how the brain works and then you would see the motor part but this right and you could say even if even if you saw in the brain.

[00:51:40] Whatever intentional system even if you saw like a little blip before you finally decided well then then I might say well maybe that's just as threatening but but at least it goes along with the story that the brain something is caught has to cause my intentions and then my intentions cause my motor behavior.

[00:51:59] But but I don't know that's that's the most charitable.

[00:52:03] I think that might at least explain why people at first found it to be extra interesting now let himself didn't even believe that this wasn't like here's one of the things that I don't remember if it says in this article like.

[00:52:17] No it doesn't oh because people could stop themselves from acting right now that much was clear from the original that that experiments so what he called veto power yeah and I don't know that's that's the most charitable.

[00:52:23] Right now that much was clear from the original that experiments so what he called veto power yeah and I don't know how the fuck that isn't like. Well the bad.

[00:52:34] Yeah he said like he called it like free won't like that we had to talk power he actually thought that that's where free will now I think there are separate problems with that view but he thought that's where free will was in the veto power.

[00:52:47] And this article doesn't bring that up at all which is unfortunate.

[00:52:53] Let's just to build the case and be charitable let's add that the John Dylan Haynes experiments with put people in fmr eyes and told them to pick a choice right button A or button B and they could predict before the person presses the button.

[00:53:15] Which which button they would press based on the brain activity with somewhere between 60 to 80% accuracy right and right. And so again the idea is your brain is choosing before and I think this is a.

[00:53:38] Multiplied like just an insanely confused sentence but your brain is choosing before you're even aware that you're choosing your brain has already made the choice and so it's like this epiphenomenon of you deciding to press the button.

[00:53:56] So here's I looked at so Jerry coin your boy your number one. I don't even know about him before we started this podcast I think that that one of the first discussions we ever had you were you were citing Jerry coin yeah well he's your number one boy.

[00:54:14] So here is him describing both LeBat and the John Dylan Haynes study he says this has obvious implications for the notion of free will at least as most people conceive of that concept.

[00:54:29] We like to think that our conscious selves make decisions but in fact the choices appear to have been made by our brains before we're aware of them.

[00:54:39] The implication of course is that deterministic forces beyond our conscious control are involved in our decisions I.E. that free will isn't really free we don't really make choices they are made long before long before we're conscious of having chosen strawberry versus pistachio ice cream at the store.

[00:55:01] So I wanted to like ask you is it obvious at all that so these results if anything are showing that at least our conscious volition is is at least the claim is centered around the feeling the conscious feeling that of volunteering something.

[00:55:22] But I think that there are views about what freedom is that don't require us to have that full conscious control over it right.

[00:55:31] Certainly not over those kinds of decisions press button a press button B or tap your finger and really any any and any right because like all it takes is you know I like to sometimes point to this William.

[00:55:46] You know it's very dated William James had an art chapter on the will in his principal psychology and he gives this really really long chapter where he what boils what he thinks is the seat of free will is that every once in a while he thinks the brain is going on mechanistically just like anything else.

[00:56:05] And every once in a while we can hold a thought in our brain for a split second longer than it would have held and that that can completely change the course of our of our life or our day or our minute and that's what he thought free will was so like there.

[00:56:21] And the we there being what though yeah well the we being whatever he thought was magic about that moment where he chose to do but I only bring it up to point out that even somebody who believes is.

[00:56:36] In some supernatural dualism might still be able to hold that that suppose you decide through your supernatural magic your libertarian free will kicks in once a year to tell you to go right versus left.

[00:56:52] And that in turn causes all sorts of cascading effects like I that's not inconsistent with with free will that is a whole lot of our decisions might be.

[00:57:02] Unconcerned on unavailable to our conscious awareness and that wouldn't necessarily mean that we're not free yeah yeah so I mean it so let's talk about this so I just want to read one other quote this is from the nature article so if you think.

[00:57:15] Straw Manning by quoting Jerry coin here's an article from in nature by Kerry Smith about the John Dylan Haynes experiment and she she I think probably as humans we like to think our decisions are under our conscious control that we have free will.

[00:57:35] So that's what how how free will is defined here is that our decisions are under our conscious control philosophers have debated that concept for centuries and now Haynes and other experimental neuroscientists are raising a new challenge.

[00:57:50] They argue that consciousness of a decision may be a mere biochemical afterthought with no influence whatsoever on a person's actions according to this logic they say free will is an illusion we feel we truly are free will.

[00:58:04] We choose but we don't now so so let's talk about this conception of free will because I think that there's something fundamentally just incoherent about it right like let me not say incoherent.

[00:58:22] Let me just say we constantly and we know this make choices all the time that we're not aware of when we when we make.

[00:58:34] And I were constantly doing that we're only aware of afterwards that we made this right like this is this is bringing back my vague my distant memories of our earlier episodes where we actually discovered of each other that you think that most of your life.

[00:58:52] Is spent without making conscious decisions and I thought that most of my life was spent making them consciously and only a sum of it is automatic.

[00:59:01] Yeah I mean I feel like I'm constantly making decisions consciously well okay but you would admit I mean I don't know what the ratio is but it doesn't matter yeah exactly like you like I'm riding my bike to work and I'm constantly making these little choices and doing the things

[00:59:18] and it's not like I'm not thinking about it it's just that it's so obvious to me that I would report having me like conscious awareness of the choice well after I made it and so.

[00:59:32] Especially for these kinds of things when to tap your finger which button to press the idea that if some sort of brain processes is initiating that has some predictive power that could tell me before I am aware of what I'm doing.

[00:59:48] Which button to choose wouldn't that that would be totally consistent with my everyday experience and an everyday experience where I feel like I make choices and deliberate all the time not all the time. Okay but but you know many times during the day.

[01:00:10] I think that that this brings up an interesting question which is that my intuition is is that these choices to press either a and b or to lift your finger are not of the variety that you're talking about where you're sort of like mindlessly driving you know and I realize I've been driving to work when I was trying to drive somewhere else but I was just on automatic pilot.

[01:00:35] And I realize after the fact that I really never had any conscious phenomenology about that decision.

[01:00:42] I would think that being in the lab where your sole task is either choose a or b that you would be extremely aware of your volitional processes like everything is stripped away that's why I took these studies to be kind of.

[01:00:56] You know attempts at getting to the heart of what volition is we're stripping everything away all you have to do is think a or b. All right think a or b.

[01:01:11] I think that people and I don't know if they self report but I think they would say no I really did consciously choose air be. But they did consciously choose air be right so it's not like those mindless kinds of decisions.

[01:01:25] So OK my point is when I'm biking to work if I see like a traffic that there's traffic or maybe like an Astros game downtown and I have to decide whether to go on this street or that street.

[01:01:41] I have to make a choice and it is a choice that is of it's not just like the choice to pedal or like it's not pure auto purely automatic it is a choice and it feels like I've made a choice but it doesn't.

[01:01:55] It wouldn't surprise me at all it's very consistent with my phenomenology that there is some part of my muscle memory or something some sort of experience where that that's leaning me in that direction before I even am aware that that would.

[01:02:15] That that's what would happen here's another example right I think I've used this on the podcast before but maybe not like if I play poker.

[01:02:22] Because I have such a face that expresses like my emotions often people will know whether I'm going to fold if they're good poker players before I do right.

[01:02:34] And if you're married for a long time as I've been you often know before your spouse what they're going to choose even though they're trying to figure out what to choose.

[01:02:44] The point is that like of course that there's ways that we're leaning before we're aware of that like that just I think that that is an undeniable fact of introspective human psychology that often when we're making a decision we're leaning and maybe even strongly leaning in a direction without being aware of that.

[01:03:11] And then when we make and that would show up in our brain activity right and then when we make the decision maybe that's the moment where we feel like we've done it but if you told us afterwards oh well you know.

[01:03:25] Right so what you're saying is that there's that all of the things that influence leaning one way or another might actually show up in the brain before before you your conscious volition kicks in.

[01:03:37] And yeah I would say it's not just might like of course it has to like yeah has to show.

[01:03:43] No it has to I mean yeah and we should see there's a way in which like this this like this your problem really does require some conceptual on a lot of conceptual analysis perhaps because I think what you're saying is really a few things but one of them sounds like.

[01:04:00] Like what is the positive like the big problem about libertarian views of free will is that it's unclear what the conception of libertarian free will would ever be like from what we know about just how causes work. I think that's right.

[01:04:17] Now here's a question so like why like why do people find these compelling and I think that it's because I feel like I know I have control when I am aware of it making a decision.

[01:04:31] And if you tell me that something else was in control like if I am you know if I'm asking you to tap a button and unbeknownst to you like I'm actually remote controlling you.

[01:04:43] And you thought and this is the classic Dan Wagner arguments if you thought that you had that it had been caused by your choice and you come to find out that it was a remote control.

[01:04:56] Then I think that's what's threatening to people that like in a case where I really really did think that it was me because it was caused right after my conscious desire.

[01:05:07] And you tell me now that it wasn't me then that's that seems threatening and like rhetorically I think that these these studies are just like I think you could show this in so many different ways but these studies are just trying to rhetorically make that point.

[01:05:22] Except that in this case it's your it's not some external person controlling you it's your brain which always controls you all the time because we're assuming that like do listen isn't true.

[01:05:36] Like this whole idea of I thought I chose it but it was actually my brain that chose it is like that it's insane it's lunacy.

[01:05:45] Yeah you're right that's the difference between the Wagner so so in the classic sort of Dan Wagner experimental setup it is somebody else choosing it and he tries to use that to argue that therefore your conscious volition is never indicative of it being you so you shouldn't trust it which is I think also ridiculous because

[01:06:08] But yeah your brain is you it is your interface this is the interface that we have with the world that is it that is all any anybody who wants to believe in some notion of freedom.

[01:06:19] This point has been made by a good jilly people if you want to believe in some coherent notion of freedom you have to come to terms with the fact that your brain is a part of the natural world.

[01:06:29] I don't think that it is required for anybody to believe in the important kind of freedom and here maybe we can switch it into responsibility.

[01:06:40] Oh I was going to say we should say what the actual new results are but yeah let's talk about the new result like before we get into responsibility these new results are as follows which again if you're sort of convinced like like we might have been that the LeBet studies never showed what they were supposed to show then.

[01:06:59] Then these new results are just for neuroscientists like they're not that interesting but I think it's relevant to the discussion. It is relevant so what what these researchers showed or as the article says one of them had an epiphany. I hope someone writes of my insights once in 2019.

[01:07:20] And that was that hey you know what there's been this kind of going assumption that this readiness potential is indicative of some sort of readiness to engage in this motor activity.

[01:07:34] But what if it's not what if what's going on is that the brain is just constantly being activated in a particular way sort of randomly.

[01:07:46] In the same way that noise is present in a whole lot of other systems right you just have this general background noise this ebb and flow of the brain's activity.

[01:07:56] And that what what these original German researchers in LeBet were were capturing when they when they measured this readiness potential was just the random ebbing and flowing of the brain's activity.

[01:08:15] And it just so happens that in the complete absence of any other input for like environmental input or any reason any anything that you might consider an input into your decision which is what these lab studies were trying to do like make this devoid of all context.

[01:08:36] That maybe the thing that is going to get you to move is something like whether or not your brain happened to be like the wave of activity in your brain happened to be kicking in in that area when you were given the instruction.

[01:08:54] So to quote this rather it would mean that the noisy activity in people's brains sometimes happens to tip the scale if there's nothing else to base a choice on saving us from endless indecision when faced with an arbitrary task.

[01:09:07] The readiness potential would be the rising part of the brain fluctuations that tend to coincide with the with the decisions. This is a highly specific situation not a general case for all or even many choices. Right.

[01:09:19] Like it reminded me of the classic burdens ass thought experiment where for example where the there's a donkey stuck between equidistant between two bales of hay and because the donkey can't decide which one to go to it dies of starvation.

[01:09:36] It's not it's not the perfect example but like imagine you have nothing else to base your decision on some of the brains noise kicks in and and pushes you one way or another or else at least I think the article is claiming or else we would sit in states of indecision for these these kinds of tasks.

[01:09:55] And they did a control study right they include a control condition in which people didn't move at all.

[01:10:02] An artificial intelligence classifier allowed them to find at what point the brain activity in the two conditions the birds if LeBet was right that should have happened at 500 milliseconds before the movement.

[01:10:14] But the algorithm couldn't tell any difference until about only 150 seconds before the movement the time people reported making decisions in the LeBets original experiment. And I think the idea is that you see the same patterns of brain activation.

[01:10:31] We're showing that the ebb and flow of brain activity is is the same in both cases. It's just that in in the LeBet cases the conditions in which you're given the instruction to tap.

[01:10:44] That's what's like kicking in the tap but the activity is the same in the control people and this is the background noise. So let me just read the quote Neuroscientists know that for people to make any type of decision our neurons need to gather evidence for each option.

[01:11:03] The decision is reached when one group of neurons accumulates evidence past a certain threshold. Sometimes this evidence comes from sensory information from the outside world but LeBet's experiment. Sugar pointed out provided its subjects with no such external cues to decide when to tap their fingers.

[01:11:23] The participants simply acted whenever the moment struck them those spontaneous moments must have coincided with the haphazard ebb and flow of the participants brain activities. They would have been more likely to tap their fingers when their motor system happened to be closer to a threshold for movement initiation.

[01:11:41] So yeah there I think their view in looking at the actual paper is that this is just constant random background noise and if it just so happens to coincide with the instructions for the task basically you know.

[01:11:56] And for any given neuron to fire it has to have a bunch of neurons firing before it that will give it enough chemical signal to decide to fire so it's either will happen or it won't and so that build up they're saying your brain is constantly in this state of like edging.

[01:12:16] And LeBet is making you come. LeBet is like killing the edge.

[01:12:27] But like isn't it interesting to like I don't know if you had this thought but what this article is reporting is illustrates nicely this what it would mean to have libertarian free will because it is not like this is a kind of a

[01:12:45] critique of the LeBet interpretation of what's going on with the readiness potential. So he's saying it's not it's it's not that this particular action got predicted before but it's just this random brain noise that's actually determining whether you're going to act or not.

[01:13:01] And that is as people have pointed out not that's not like that's going to save free will. I don't know if it was just my random brain activity that's like that's not any better.

[01:13:14] Yeah I didn't. I guess I thought that it's not any better for this kind of decision right. So it would. Fuck there's a can you hear this. Yeah I can but I don't know if the recording can. Well probably if you can because it's coming through the.

[01:13:38] Well I'll just say this I'm sorry there's a leaf blower it doesn't matter it's noise it's just noise at worst what it would show is when you're not given any information to help you make a choice and it's supposed to be just completely spontaneous.

[01:14:00] That is something that the random fluctuations of your brain might actually be what's behind you making that choice right.

[01:14:11] Yeah so so at most that's what it would show is that given no further information if you're just told to press a button or not or to press a or B or to tap a finger whenever you feel like it based on nothing except your own just caprice then maybe some random fluctuations of your brain will predictively

[01:14:37] or even determinatively but I feel like that's obvious like of course something is going to make me decide to tap a finger if I'm not given any other parameters that would influence me one way or the or another something has to make me make the choice right.

[01:14:56] That's so disanalogous to most of the decisions that we associate with free will when we do have information when we have information from all sorts of all sorts of influences and we are processing that and trying to make the choice right.

[01:15:14] The idea that this would generalize to all decisions is crazy and it doesn't have to be my brain. It could be anything you could tell me like the wind in the room is what's making me choose or sudden drop in temperature or like a leaf blower or whatever like if I have no other information then sure something's got to give me the impulse to decide or not.

[01:15:40] Like again it's this conception of free will which is just it's this thing that I don't even know what that what that could possibly be.

[01:15:49] I completely agree that there is no conception of freedom that that makes any sense along those lines right some it has to be something now. If that thing is a leaf blower and you thought it was your priorities. But you can't have priorities in this case.

[01:16:09] Well but this so this gets to something that kind of bugs me that I that I hadn't really thought about.

[01:16:15] So now on this story right this this novel understanding of what this readiness potential is they're saying well look like it's this ebb and flow of brain activity that's random when LeBet gives instructions to lift your finger or not.

[01:16:33] Since you're essentially indifferent and have no other causes acting upon you then that kicks in and makes you decide based on when that wave of brain activities is coming in.

[01:16:50] And in people who are not given any instructions at all that wave of activity can be demonstrated in much the same form right like there's no difference in that wave of random activity.

[01:17:02] So what is it that is kicking you into lifting your finger in the non control condition.

[01:17:13] There's still reeks to me of something in baked into the way that these neuroscientists are talking about this that says yeah like what LeBet was showing was the random influence before the decision is kicking in.

[01:17:29] We can show those random influences are there even in people who aren't given the instruction but in people who are given the instruction.

[01:17:38] This is getting their movements above a threshold so what's that other bit that was necessary like what's that other piece of the decision that is actually making your your motor activity initiate.

[01:17:51] It's something else probably in your brain but it is not the Brech the Brechers potential which was the whole argument against free will in the first place right.

[01:18:05] So if that thing is going constantly like this fucking leaf blower then you know there's some other activity and who knows when that you know how that activity coincides with your conscious awareness we don't know.

[01:18:17] But but it's it's this isn't the thing that's doing it and if this is your argument against free will which is an insane argument to begin with then it's it's it doesn't work anymore.

[01:18:34] Right so so it is I think that that what's bothering is that the thought that that this.

[01:18:43] That the status of free will somebody might think either either rises or falls depending on whether or not the LeBet interpretation is right or the particular studies or which of the brain activities is being shown or what that brain activity means the thought that that bears any like.

[01:19:01] It has anything to do with whether or not an action is free is. I think just untenable and so. It's weird to think that like oh yeah we've shown that LeBet LeBets redness potential isn't what he thought it was.

[01:19:20] To then say therefore maybe we do have free will right which I don't think to be fair the author saying. You're granting a premise that you shouldn't grant.

[01:19:30] Exactly exactly and I think that at the heart of it this has been our perennial view of some of this this work which is that there is nothing.

[01:19:41] There is no empirical finding that could debunk free will because unless you're going to tell me that there is an empirical finding that show demonstrates free will that could vindicate. Yeah and this is not to say before all of our Sam Harris fans jump on us.

[01:20:01] I at least I'm not mounting an argument for freedom by saying that none of this matters. I just think that whatever argument you mount against freedom won't if it's good include an argument about LeBet studies or any other neuroscientific studies or any other psychological studies right.

[01:20:18] Yeah and even Sam Harris I saw that he tweeted that one of his biggest regrets was mentioning the LeBet studies as evidence against the idea of free will that it even if it if the results were what they appeared to be it wouldn't way against or for one way or the other.

[01:20:43] Is this an instance of Sam actually agreeing that he was wrong or is this an instance of Sam doubling down on his view that he's right about free will and that it shouldn't have matters about LeBet one way or the other.

[01:20:56] Well that's a you know that's a question for Sam and his therapist but. No I mean I think he is I mean he called it his biggest regret about the book right like and I don't think it was just because of these results.

[01:21:12] I think that this is a tweet that I don't even have up in front of me but the implication is Dan Dennett I think I think Dan Dennett pointed this out and then Sam Harris saw because Sam's called out specifically in this article yeah.

[01:21:26] And like you say we have been on this issue for a long time to say that these kinds of experiments disprove free will is to assume that free will is something that it like it's nonsensical.

[01:21:43] Yeah that that no finding could support and in which case it would be an unfalsifiable hypothesis both that you have it or that you don't. Yeah that's why we call it metaphysics right.

[01:22:00] So how does this why is the LeBet study you know this was in the 80s right and people were talking about it your number one boy Jerry coin keeps referring to it as an argument like how does this happen these articles.

[01:22:18] Remember the article on worms having free will yeah. So here's my I'm going to throw out a hypothesis for how this happens. It is a market failure.

[01:22:29] Nobody loses money when people offer these confused analyses of free will or its absence in fact on the contrary they probably get money.

[01:22:43] So this is something where it's all the incentives are pointing in the direction of making a mistake that you don't have to be a genius to at least recognize once it's repeatedly pointed out to you. It's interesting.

[01:23:02] So a couple of like there's part of me agrees with you but actually want to know like what it is specifically that makes this a marketable hypothesis.

[01:23:13] One possibility is that sort of in this Gladwellian way anything that challenges a deeply held belief by what we might call a scientific finding is marketable. Yeah. And until those get debunked people weirdly have a desire to slurp up that stuff or at least some people do.

[01:23:38] And they even have a desire to slurp up stuff that goes against it right but not to let it die.

[01:23:45] And when I was doing a little bit of research on this topic I'm not going to link to it because I think that the way that I'm going to describe this blog post shows why I don't think it would be fair.

[01:24:00] But it was a person who was clearly somebody who had been apparently trained in psychology but they had a big post arguing this was earlier a few years ago arguing like really strongly against all of the things that were going on.

[01:24:15] And I think that's all of the people who thought that LeBet showed that we have no free will. And it's not that I disagreed with the criticisms.

[01:24:24] It's that the criticisms ended up being used to support that spirituality is integral part of science and that you know and and I don't want to mock the poor person because I think they their hearts in the right place about about those criticisms.

[01:24:39] And I did read in such a motivated way and I think it read in such a motivated way because they were explicit about their spiritual beliefs.

[01:24:48] But people who are like hardcore you know I feel like there is this strand of contrarianism where people certain kind of people love to point out the harsh truth to fellow human beings that you're a sucker and there is no such thing as free will.

[01:25:05] And here's the science to back it up without ever having critically analyzed any of that science. No that's true there's definitely that there is this we've talked about this I think literally since the first episode where we like you can't handle the truth maybe that's the second episode.

[01:25:21] That's exactly what I'm saying.

[01:25:23] You know like you that there is there's a market for that there is also a separate market it's not our market although it's maybe like I'm edging into that market the spiritual science needs spirituality right so this is what I'm talking about is there is a market for not putting this to bed on every side you know of maintaining the premise of

[01:25:51] this at least that these studies have some sort could mount some sort of threat or if not that it supports some kind of spiritual understanding of the universe which then can be mocked marketably by the other side and that's how this keeps going.

[01:26:13] And this is if you want to talk about a threat to free will this is a threat to free will that market forces are controlling how you feel and think about free will.

[01:26:25] You know what I mean this is this is the real threat you think you're like figuring this out and deliberating about what counts and what doesn't but actually it's you know what will make the most money the kind of Marxist.

[01:26:44] The well this is why Jordan Peterson selling a lot of books whether he likes to admit it or not a Marxist analysis of his book sales is the appropriate.

[01:26:55] There's one thing that you said that I that I think I disagree with which is that you don't have to be a genius or that you know like in order to figure out that these are shitty arguments.

[01:27:06] I think that it's easy to underestimate how difficult it is to sift through some of this stuff and actually come up with a coherent notion of what it would mean say to have free will you know what is free to mean at all what is determinism.

[01:27:21] I think they're actually like really hard and and and when some scientists tells you that they found this on the I think that there is a on the face of it threat.

[01:27:34] Right I think that it takes a good deal of training to or at least reflection to realize that this isn't the threat that we thought yeah no that you're right I as it was coming out realized I had overstated my point you don't need to be a genius to recognize it but you need some familiar

[01:27:51] clarity and some background and just some time where you've thought about these issues to recognize it that doesn't explain the people who are writing about it and the people and the neuroscientists who are making the claims and the Jerry coins and like that doesn't explain those people it just.

[01:28:12] I actually think that like it's a nice analogy to the blogger I was talking about who wanted to defend their spiritual beliefs that people who are really convinced of the truth of determinism.

[01:28:26] Sometimes I feel like they're like perhaps I think there's what there's two things one is that scientists are surprisingly uncritical of some of these issues right like that that everything is cut and dry and you can develop a sort of arrogance about.

[01:28:43] As scientists they know not only the things they know but also how to know the things that they don't know and that this they don't really. Give too much critical thought about the possibility that empirical science can't answer some of these questions.

[01:28:59] Like weirdly naive about that absolutely really really. Yeah like they're not skeptical of these kinds of studies at all in the way that they exactly the same way that they criticize the spiritual camp for being. Yeah well yeah. Similar in a suspiciously similar way yes.

[01:29:24] Yeah they're definitely more critical but then there I think I think the more pernicious actors which are the ones who.

[01:29:33] Actually know better like they actually are so in I can't tell this but the distinction between these two people who know that these studies wouldn't at all matter for whether or not say free will exist.

[01:29:50] But are so convinced say of the truth of determinism that they feel OK shlocking it as like to the masses. So do you think that there are a lot of people like that.

[01:30:00] I don't I don't think there are a lot of people like that but I do think that these are the people who are in the marketplace of ideas that you're talking about. I think that perhaps it is less a conscious intent than I am ascribing perhaps.

[01:30:15] Yeah I mean for all my ripping on Jerry Coyne. I don't think he's like that.

[01:30:21] No but coin is a biologist like you know I'm talking about people who have either good interdisciplinary training or even philosophical specific training who know that these can't be great arguments but that are.

[01:30:38] You know I feel this way sometimes about people who are convinced in the truth about the truth of consequentialism that they're willing to use any argument.

[01:30:48] You know who I'll use it as an example because he doesn't have a thin skin at all about this stuff and I've definitely told him this to his face before. Sometimes I think that Walter Sten and Armstrong does this.

[01:30:59] He's a really smart guy who knows what is a good argument and is a bad argument but sometimes I think he's OK. Leveling a bunch of bad arguments so long as he thinks that it might convince you of the truth of his position.

[01:31:14] The ends justify the means kind of.

[01:31:16] Yeah that's like it's yeah part of his ethics and and you know I'm not to cast aspersions on people other than Walter Sten and Armstrong whom I love but but I well and that's what like let me ask you man like are you going to.

[01:31:36] Feel those market pressures and ignore some good arguments that go against your views when it comes to your next book. Do you feel this is my next hypothetical book.

[01:31:48] I think that they are unconscious like I can't remember now of course we've already had our memory discussion but I can't remember a time where I've let consciously let something go that I know is bullshit and propagated it.

[01:32:03] That's why I think a lot of this is going on you know and of course it's it's it's too sharp a distinction. There are certain things where I'm kind of like am I not being skeptical enough but it's not like I actively already think it's bullshit.

[01:32:18] Maybe I think well I could you know it's this confirmation bias kind of thing maybe I could like try to be a little more skeptical and I decide not to you know because it wouldn't be compatible with the position I'm in.

[01:32:33] I'm defending but I think most of the time and I don't know if you're like this I'm pretty good about and this is like if you look at my books they're very even handed like if anything they're they're to a fault.

[01:32:48] Don't take a stand on things and I think it's because I often really try to reckon with the complexity and I'm often torn into directions and I try to have my work reflect that.

[01:32:59] Yeah no I think that is true of you. I think you have a shtick on our podcast where sometimes you're not like that but I don't think that's true of who you are but I also agree with you that it's it's the less charitable thing to say that people are doing it on purpose.

[01:33:15] I think a few people might be consequentialist reasons doing it on purpose but I think that it's so hard to know and when I think about the things that I have changed my mind about are the things that I am unsure about that I used to be sure about.

[01:33:29] It really is all because of having smart enough people around me who have been arguing their side enough that I actually start to think that that maybe I'm wrong and I don't know that that's a reliable process for the truth like that's also.

[01:33:45] It just might mean that I'm like easily swayed by the people around me. Right. You're impressionable. Yeah. No but here's the thing like we're also not in a position where if we promote a view like we get a lot of money if we are appropriately skeptical we don't.

[01:34:05] That's why I love podcasting to be on that's why I love this format because we don't have to in order to be doing whatever it is we're doing.

[01:34:13] But if it was like that for us you know like if we were constantly like being flooded with money when we defended a view that we ought to be more skeptical about like that's just not true for me then I you know maybe I would be less even handed about certain things

[01:34:32] You know what I mean. I don't know. Yeah.

[01:34:35] I feel like nobody losing money when these kinds of confusions get propagated is a problem like and I don't there's no real way of dealing with it but like that's you know because it's also true about news and like all sorts of different things but yeah it's it's yeah it has to be more than that because nobody loses money when any

[01:34:56] scientist says anything in any journal because nobody pays any attention but but but people like even in your field right like people's reputations get like ruined if they've been basing all their research on either fraudulent results or even you know bad you know not replicated through sort of fishy stat stuff right

[01:35:21] like people rep reputation get ruined by that nobody's reputation no science journalists reputation got ruined for the 20 years of like over promoting this LeBet stuff right like no and none of the people who participated it who sort of helped it along everybody's they're all fine.

[01:35:44] Yeah it's only poor LeBet who's turning over in his grave.

[01:35:48] Although you know that that's interesting because it's often taken as an argument in the other direction that we shouldn't smear people's reputations when they've been fabulously wrong even because that what that will do is provide an incentive for people to dig down and do shitty

[01:36:06] science like to keep doing shitty science so like now perhaps after this gets published somebody will double down and say no like these these original things were right and it might actually take longer for people to come to believe the true thing because their reputation is it

[01:36:26] Oh definitely this isn't going to like like it's not like oh no but we'll all wake up as if it's a bad dream the LeBets will finally have the truth. We'll finally know the truth. Yeah and everyone will wake up a betting market.

[01:36:42] Yeah I mean it could be that this is played its course you know this the LeBet thing and they're yeah and maybe it's run its course there's no there's no money to be made on either side and so it'll just die down.

[01:36:58] I think we're wrapping up but there are two things that I want to say before we finish for sure one of which is that this is by far like if you want to read criticisms of LeBet we like we didn't talk about all of it.

[01:37:11] No not at all. About whether or not people's self-report is reliable and the clock that they looked at and all that there are all kinds of reasons that you might be skeptical of the particular studies so. Almealy, Etinamias like tons of philosophers have written about this.

[01:37:27] Yeah and the second thing I wanted to say is that by far the biggest threat I ever had intracycally to the thought that I might be free happened when I was a firm believer in the existence of God and his foreknowledge.

[01:37:44] Like that's what shook me to my core like that God knows everything from time zero to time infinity.

[01:37:53] That was way bigger a threat to me than than any of this stuff even even the topical reports that you have a brain and nervous system like that was more like I was relieved to know that it was just coming from that.

[01:38:09] Raking news you have a brain and nervous at this point. At this point I'll take being remote controlled by somebody with free will. Yeah I mean we have never talked about that before and I don't think maybe we have.

[01:38:21] No I don't think so but it was like a yeah.

[01:38:24] Yeah it was something that was super formative for me and I think that it was one of the things that really got me into into looking into philosophy was being raised with this very very strict view that God.

[01:38:42] I was told both God knows everything for sure for sure and that you for sure for sure have free will and I remember frustratingly talking to in fact one of my friends fathers was a theologian and being like this can't fucking be right.

[01:38:59] Yeah that might be you know we could do an episode on for the threat of foreknowledge to free will. You know what we could have if you ever listens or decides to come back on our show.

[01:39:12] Sean Nichols was raised in a Calvinist tradition and dirt parable both at Cornell. Oh they were. I don't know if it's Calvinist specifically but I think it is or Luther huh yeah. Yeah one of those you're born going to hell so too fucking bad.

[01:39:32] I know it's like shut up. It would be cool to believe that you're already going to do whatever you want. Liberating. That's free will right there. That's going to hell anyway so fucking. All right. On that note. On that note join us next time on Very Bad Wizard.