Episode 149: Death, Immortality, and Porn (Intuition) Pumps

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Very Bad Wizards is a podcast with a philosopher, my dad, and psychologist Dave Pizarro having an informal discussion about issues in science and ethics.

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_05]: Please note that the discussion contains bad words that I'm not allowed to say, and knowing my dad, some very inappropriate jokes.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_06]: There is no shame in dying for nothing. That's why most people die.

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_11]: The Queen in Mars has spoken!

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_11]: Pay no attention to that dance!

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_12]: Ask anybody can have a brain? Very good man! Just a very bad wizard.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_09]: Welcome to Very Bad Wizards, I'm Tamler Sommers from the University of Houston. Dave, after the pretty good response to our IDW-tinged last episode, what topic do you want to cover today?

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_09]: The witch hunt against Brett Kavanaugh or how gender studies and critical theory are destroying America?

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_07]: I would rather talk about the chilling effects of free speech on campus.

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_09]: It's good, yes. You can't say anything anymore.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_07]: I feel it's a coddled generation.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_07]: I know, maybe that's why we've gotten increasingly less repugnant over time.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_09]: That's a streak we're looking to break today.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_07]: I am nervous.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_07]: You are really?

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_09]: Oh my god, you have been chilled.

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_09]: I've been chilled.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_09]: So here's what we're talking about. Let's just for once say what we're doing on the episode before.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_09]: So in the second segment we're going to try to make David Pizarro less afraid of death.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_09]: From Cornell University.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_09]: Less afraid of death by reading a couple things.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_09]: One, that talks about why immortality wouldn't be a good thing, wouldn't be something that we could desire.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_09]: And two, a study that you brought to my attention that presents evidence for the view that people are happier when they're about to die than you would expect.

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_09]: Right?

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_07]: That's not the best way of describing it.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_07]: So both conceptual and empirical evidence to disabuse me of this patently irrational fear of death.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_07]: Crypling.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_07]: Crypling.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_07]: He's crippling even.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_07]: That's why I drink.

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_09]: And as a special bonus for all you Twin Peaks fans, stay tuned after the final music at the end of the episode, Eliza Summers.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_09]: My daughter will be joining us to explain her Twin Peaks theory.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_09]: And we had a nice little discussion about that.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_09]: But in the first segment we had this idea.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_09]: First of all, some listeners have a complaint that we're less repugnant in recent years.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_09]: Now it could just be because we've gotten older, but it could just be who knows.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_07]: That would be, I was thinking about that the worst, the worst explanation if this is true, which I'm not sure it is, would be that we matured.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_07]: I know.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_07]: That would be horrible.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, so here's a text that started what we're going to do for this first segment.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_09]: A text series that Dave and I had.

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_09]: So it started because somebody tweeted us about our last episode and there was just something about the tweet.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_09]: It sort of misunderstood us and then kind of carried on.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_09]: And in the end said we must be dualists.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_09]: It was something about our conversation we had with Sam Harris.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_09]: And I just knew, I don't know how I know it.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_09]: There's no theory I have.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_09]: I knew that this was going to be enough, even though you never respond to people on Twitter or hardly ever,

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_09]: that there was something about this one that you were going to, and you did.

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_09]: So then I texted you and said, I can predict with 90% accuracy which tweets you'll reply to.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_09]: And then you said, please text me first and stop me.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_09]: And then said there should be like a freedom for friends app.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_09]: So this is a device that keeps me, that I've recommended, that keeps me up from going online.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_09]: And he says where you can remotely disable someone's ability to be online like a friend.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_07]: Right, so Tamler could turn off my Twitter access remotely.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_09]: Exactly.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_09]: Or you could turn off mine or even better Reddit.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_09]: And then you said I'd allow you to be my surrogate for Twitter decisions but not for Pornhub.

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_09]: And I said, then forget it.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_09]: And then you said I don't want granular control.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_09]: This is your text.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_09]: Make it so I could only make you watch Midget Granny porn.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_09]: And so then I said that's all I watch anyway.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_09]: And I said it would be like a Frankfurt case.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_09]: And this is a reference to Frankfurt examples in philosophy where somebody is manipulating you

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_09]: or controlling your choices in such a way that you can only make one choice.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_09]: But it turns out that that's the choice that you want anyway.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_09]: So they never really have to do anything because you're making the choice that they want you to choose.

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_09]: So even though you couldn't do otherwise, you're still doing what you want to do.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_09]: And according to Harry Frankfurt that means you're still morally responsible even if you couldn't do otherwise.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_09]: So I'm already watching.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_09]: The only thing I'm watching is Midget Granny porn.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_09]: So the fact that he's making it so that that's the only kind of porn I can watch.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_09]: Well that's anyway.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_09]: You thought you then said and this is what we're...

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_09]: We should make porn examples of famous thought experiments.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_09]: And I thought that was a great idea.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_09]: Maybe your best idea that you've ever had in the six years we've been doing this podcast.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_07]: So let's do it.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_07]: Let's...

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, like just to be serious, I think that pedagogy and philosophy is suffering right now.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_07]: I think this is a problem of the educational system.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_07]: I think this is a problem of modern training in graduate school and philosophy.

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_07]: I think the solution to this is to point out the real world relevance,

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_07]: the need even for careful critical conceptual analysis with something that the kids today can relate to.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay. So I've come up with...

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_09]: I've come up with three. Two that I really like.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_09]: One that I feel like is just too boilerplate.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_09]: I'll do that one at the end.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_09]: You want to go first?

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, I'll go first with the example that I led with in the text conversation.

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_07]: Modified slightly.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_07]: This one was tailored just for Tamler.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_07]: So here it goes.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_07]: You, you Tamler or you listener, believe and want to watch incest porn.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_07]: This is your thing.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_07]: You really love incest porn.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_07]: And so you type it into your porn hub search box

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_07]: and you look for two sisters, your sister incest porn.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_07]: You actually believe that they're sisters.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_07]: Unbeknownst to you though, these are just actresses.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_07]: They met that day on set.

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_07]: They're just totally pretending to be sisters.

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_07]: Come to find out though that they were both put up for adoption by the same parents

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_07]: and are actually sisters.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_07]: So Tamler, did you actually get off to sister porn?

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_07]: That's the question.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_07]: This is, and this is the, I've labeled this thought puzzle,

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_07]: get earring off.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_07]: I like that.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_09]: It was between get ear, get eorgasm or get earring off.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_09]: It's a really interesting question.

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_09]: Now of course it really is, that's very parallel to a get ear case

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_09]: if you just substitute like did you know that they were sisters, right?

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_07]: Right, but here I want to know whether you really got off to incest porn.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_07]: For those of you who may not have heard the 18 different episodes

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_07]: where Tamler complains about get ear cases, this is a famous case in epistemology

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_07]: where the question is what is knowledge?

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_07]: And so you present these kinds of situations where you quote unquote know something

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_07]: but you know it's sort of...

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_07]: Well no, you have a bullet justify.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_09]: It's meant to show that knowledge is not just justified belief

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_09]: or true justified belief because you have a belief, it's true and it's justified

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_09]: but the way in which it's true is not related to how it's justified or something.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_07]: Right, so in this case they are sisters.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_07]: You believe they are sisters.

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_09]: And argue, yeah it's not totally clear that it's a justified belief in that case, right?

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_07]: Exactly, this is I'm taking some poetic license here, some artistic freedom

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_07]: to make this into the one get ear style case that Tamler would actually...

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_09]: Well I would say yes if I had to but I need to think about a lot of different variations

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_09]: and counters and refinements to that.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_09]: Like if it's three sisters, three sisters and a brother, like you know...

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_07]: Just different relationships. You get a publication out of each and every one of them.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_09]: Alright, here's my first one.

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_09]: It's titled A Theory of Porn.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_09]: You are in a hypothetical original position where you know nothing about your sexual tastes.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_09]: You don't know if you're straight or gay or pan, you could be pan as the kids say now.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_09]: You don't know if you're into bondage or lesbians or old women or little people

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_09]: or men or teens or whatever.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_09]: And now you have to set up a porn site and that porn site only has seven categories.

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_09]: After you decide on those categories the veil of ignorance will be removed

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_09]: and you'll be... I'm actually quoting roles here.

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_09]: Turned out into a society...

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_09]: That's a funny kind of expression at that point.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_09]: But you'll be turned out into a society where that is the only porn site available.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_09]: What categories would you choose? Or is it rational to choose?

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_07]: This is a great question. I mean if we want our porn to be just...

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_07]: It has to be answered.

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_07]: We have to achieve some reflective equilibrium on what the categories would be.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_07]: And I think that true ignorance makes this almost intractable

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_07]: because my initial reaction is well you want to represent for instance

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_07]: heterosexual desires, homosexual desires, maybe a few common fetishes

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_07]: but that is all informed by what I already know about the empirical state of the world

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_07]: and the frequency with which people have it.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_07]: I think you are left with in this case the veil of ignorance fails miserably

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_07]: and you might as well roll the dice.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_07]: You might as well literally use a random number generator

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_07]: and pick one of the porn type categories.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_09]: I actually think in the veil of ignorance you are given empirical information

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_09]: about the way people happen to be their psychologists.

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, you are given some information about the psychology.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_09]: So you might be able to get information about people's sexual proclivities.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_09]: In fact that information didn't porn hub tabulate that information.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_07]: They did. But it can't be too much information.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_07]: This is maybe we'll link to our Thought Puzzle episode.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_07]: This is sort of the crux. What information do you really have?

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_07]: Because it can't be... Rawls doesn't want it to be really empirical information

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_07]: about people's desires. He wants to sort of intuit from what he thinks

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_07]: might be a universal set of intuitions about distribution.

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_07]: So you need to know for instance that it has to be about sex

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_07]: and you need to know that people are sexually attracted to some things

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_07]: and you need to know that they'll be motivated to watch those.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_09]: But why can't you be... Like know that like 80% of people

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_09]: like to watch straight porn, 3% like step-sisters, step-mother.

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, you could. What would be the maximum?

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_09]: Right. You would want to make sure that...

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_09]: I actually think that's right. You want to make sure that everybody

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_09]: has something on the site.

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_09]: You wouldn't want to be the one person who like there's nothing on there for you.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_09]: There's no category. So that would be an unjust website.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_09]: And then after that point you would want the only way that people could get

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_09]: more categories to enjoy would be also if that would help the people

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_09]: who are enjoying the fewest categories.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_07]: Right. Agreed. Agreed.

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_07]: Although definitely one category should just be called the original position.

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_09]: Which is just a bunch of disembodied people like fucking each other.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_07]: It's just... I just think it's doggy style. I think that's the original.

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_07]: Right.

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_07]: Mine, I have a couple of ones that are quick and easy.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_07]: They're more like paradoxes, classic paradoxes.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_07]: The first is what I think everybody assumes when they first hear

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_07]: the title of this one, Burden's Ass.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_07]: So you have a website that presents only two preview windows

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_07]: and you love ass.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_07]: And on the left is just an awesome ass.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_07]: Could be whatever. Man, woman, whatever.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_07]: On the right side there's an equally awesome ass.

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_07]: Now they are both clearly of equivalent attraction to you.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_07]: Do you have any rational basis to choose which one to click on?

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_07]: And will it be the case that if you don't, you will simply starve

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_07]: and never be able to satiate your sexual desire.

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_07]: You'll just sit there for the rest of your life trying to choose

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_07]: between the two equally attractive options.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah. That's a tough one, right?

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_09]: Like you'll never, if you're in that position, like you'll just

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_09]: never have an orgasm ever again.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_09]: That's right.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_07]: But the whole time you'll be really wanting one.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_07]: You'll just have no motivating reason to go either one.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_09]: All right.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_09]: My second one is a paradox too.

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_09]: So let me just do that also.

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_09]: I think this is my favorite.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_09]: It's called The Impossible Waxer.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_09]: A porn star for brazzers also works at a salon on the side

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_09]: and she gives Brazilians to every porn star at brazzers

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_09]: who doesn't wax herself.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_07]: That was, I had one of them.

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_07]: That was my last one too.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_09]: And she gives Brazilians to no one at brazzers

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_09]: who doesn't wax herself.

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_09]: Does she give herself a Brazilian?

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. This is the downfall of logical.

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_07]: At least the formal logic doesn't attempt to solve

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_07]: philosophical problem.

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_09]: This is like incompleteness proof, essentially.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it is.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_07]: My version was not as creative but very efficient.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_07]: A fluffer fluffs all those who do not fluff themselves.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_07]: Who fluffs the fluffer?

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_07]: So think about it.

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_07]: Poor Bertrand Russell is spinning in his grave.

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_07]: I hope I appreciate it.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_09]: All right, I have one that I don't think is that good

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_09]: because it's just sort of obvious,

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_09]: but a woman named Mary lives in a room with no access

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_09]: to sex or stimulation of any kind.

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_09]: She reads sex books, anatomy books, biology

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_09]: and learns every fact there is about orgasms.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_09]: But then one day she's let out and has sex

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_09]: and has an orgasm.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_09]: Does she learn anything new?

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_07]: I feel like that's this example that you give

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_07]: is a little too close to home.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_07]: It's sort of described as the first 20 years of my life.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_08]: So you had read everything there is to know.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_08]: Pretty much.

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_07]: I was a shy kid.

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_07]: I had no game.

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_07]: But I was curious.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_07]: So I would go to the library

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_07]: and quite literally just read everything

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_07]: that I could get my hands on.

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_07]: Not erotica, like just how sex works, that kind of thing.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_07]: So yes, that knowledge was not very...

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_07]: I would say that I did not know what sex was.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_09]: So dualism is true.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_09]: The Twitter guy was right.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_07]: Man, that tweet was inscrutable.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_09]: There's another one that I just never got to

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_09]: but I feel like somebody maybe throw that to the listeners.

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_09]: Chinese Room, that experiment.

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_09]: Glory Hole, that's all...

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_09]: That's as far as I got.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_09]: But I'm sure there is.

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_09]: You know.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_07]: There is, there is.

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_07]: And there has to be a play on the word semantics.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_07]: Of course.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_09]: Alright.

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_09]: Is that repugnant enough for you?

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_09]: Listen to this.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_09]: I hope so.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_07]: Just so you know, Tamler has told me that

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_07]: all of the porn he watches is organically sourced and humane.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_07]: He very much goes out of his way to make sure that...

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_09]: Exactly.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_09]: Right.

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_09]: So there's no moral issue here with what we're doing.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_09]: That's right.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_09]: Because yeah, there probably are like factory porn.

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_07]: There very much are.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_07]: It's one of those issues that much like you and your meat eating.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_07]: I turn a blind eye to.

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_09]: I wonder what Will McCaskill thinks about porn.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_09]: Like probably fine with it, right?

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_09]: For the most part.

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, oh yeah.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_07]: There's one.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_07]: I think there is an example to be made out of a utility monster

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_07]: who gets more enjoyment out of porn than anyone else.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_07]: There has to be something there.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_07]: He gets all the porn.

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_07]: Alright, should we take a break?

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_09]: Yep, let's take a break and we'll be right back to talk

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_09]: David out of his fear of death.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_07]: Welcome back to Very Bad Wizards.

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_07]: We'd like to take a moment to thank all of our listeners,

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_07]: all of our supporters.

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_07]: We really appreciate everything you guys do,

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_07]: your communication to us, the discussion that you engage in,

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_07]: even your inscrutable tweets about how we're dualists secretly.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_07]: Somewhere deep down inside we appreciate it.

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_07]: Because after all, it led to the opening segment.

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[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_07]: facebook.com slash Very Bad Wizards

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[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_07]: where we pop into every now and again and engage in discussion as well.

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, and I do.

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_09]: Should do less often.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_09]: Or at least me.

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_07]: Even the Twitter discussion about our last,

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_07]: some of the comments about our last episode

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_07]: where we talked about Serena and Lucy Kay,

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_07]: which we're definitely taking a break from.

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_07]: Definitely.

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_07]: We're, they were, I was kind of proud.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, there was disagreement, but it was kind of civil.

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_07]: It was for Twitter at least.

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_07]: It was pretty amazing.

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_09]: For Twitter, it was, yeah, it was almost impossible.

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_09]: They're right.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_09]: But I would say it was even civil just in general.

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_07]: Just in general on regular.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_07]: And I don't know.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, I know that we have listeners across a very wide spectrum

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_07]: of that kind of ideology.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_07]: And I'm proud of it.

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm proud of the fact that they can,

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_07]: they can talk to each other or a little safe space.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_09]: It gives hope in a,

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_09]: and especially a media landscape that seems more and more hopeless.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, hopeless and toxic.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

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[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_07]: and you get bonus content that you might enjoy.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_07]: In fact, we've gotten, I think,

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_07]: quite a bit of discussion and appreciation

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_07]: for something I didn't even listen to yet,

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_07]: because I haven't watched the Twin Peaks third season.

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_09]: And I guess you won't listen to my little bonus segment

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_09]: with my daughter either.

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_09]: Stay tuned for that, people who have watched.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_09]: I got to also rate us on iTunes.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_09]: Please review us on iTunes.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_09]: I think that helps us reach a larger audience.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_09]: And there's been a lot of encroachments on iTunes

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_09]: from other podcasts, I think.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_09]: All right, so it seems like there's two reasons

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_09]: you might be afraid of death

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_09]: and you might have this crippling fear of death

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_09]: like Dave has.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_09]: And one of them is that you cease to live,

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_09]: that you're not living anymore.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_09]: So that's one problem with it.

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_09]: And two is just the actual experience of dying itself.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_09]: So, not totally on purpose,

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_09]: we came across a couple things that challenge

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_09]: both of those desires.

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_09]: The desire to want to keep on living

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_09]: and also the worry that the experience of death

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_09]: will be bad.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_09]: So the first thing we'll talk about is an article

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_09]: on Eon who we have sometimes on occasion

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_09]: sort of mocked their philosophy articles,

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_09]: but I thought this one was really, really good.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_09]: And actually they've been very good recently.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_09]: It's by Paul Sager and it's called

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_09]: On Going On and On and On.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_09]: And it talks about a paper by Bernard Williams,

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_09]: a philosopher we've talked about a lot on this show.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_09]: And an article that he wrote about why immortality

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_09]: would not be a good thing.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_09]: Why that's something that we shouldn't desire.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_09]: And so that's what we'll talk about first

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_09]: and then the second thing we'll talk about is

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_09]: a study that shows that the experience of dying

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_09]: is more positive than you might think.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_07]: And I want to say after engaging in sort of

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_07]: quasi or squarely political discussions,

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_07]: we're always looking for something to lift up our spirits.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_07]: So we thought death would be a very nice contrast

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_07]: to the misery of talking about this.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_09]: So Bernard Williams starts out his essay.

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_09]: He has an essay called The Markropolis Case,

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_09]: which you can find online.

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_09]: I actually looked at it.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_09]: Reflections on the tedium of immortality.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_09]: And he uses as an example this woman

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_09]: who by the time she turned 42,

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_09]: so it's too late for you here.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, God.

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_09]: She drinks some sort of elixir that keeps her

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_09]: at that age forever, at age 42 forever.

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_09]: And then 300 years pass

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_09]: and at that point she experiences everything

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_09]: she's wanted and now her life is cold

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_09]: and empty and boring and withdrawn.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_09]: She has nothing left to live for,

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_09]: so she stops drinking the elixir

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_09]: and destroys it and is able to die.

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_09]: And so this is the question.

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_09]: So if you could be,

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_09]: if you could have granted this desire

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_09]: for immortality,

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_09]: is that something that you should actually want?

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_07]: Right.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_07]: It's very easy to just in an offhanded way

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_07]: say, well, I want to live forever.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_07]: But in saying I don't want to die,

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_07]: you're kind of saying that,

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_07]: but sometimes you explicitly say that.

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_07]: And in fact, belief in the afterlife

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_07]: is usually belief in living forever.

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_07]: Seems pretty obvious that that would be

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_07]: the opposite of dying

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_07]: and that's what we would want

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_07]: because we don't want to die.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_09]: And so Williams' argument is you would not want this.

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_09]: And the reason is because at a certain point

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_09]: you would run out of what he calls categorical desires.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_09]: So categorical desires are things

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_09]: that you want to keep on living

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_09]: in order that you can do it.

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_09]: So like I have a categorical desire

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_09]: to scuba dive in the Galapagos Islands.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_09]: Like that's, I've been wanting to do that

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_09]: for very long time.

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_09]: I'll be pissed off if I die

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_09]: and I don't get to do that at some point in my life.

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_09]: That is a categorical desire.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_09]: And then we have all these other kinds of desires

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_09]: that if I happen to be alive,

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_09]: I would want to do.

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_09]: But I don't want to go on living

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_09]: in order to do it.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_09]: So the example in the Eon article

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_09]: is getting a cavity filled.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_09]: Like if you're going to keep on living,

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah, you want to get the cavity filled,

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_09]: but you don't want to keep on living

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_09]: in order to get the cavity filled.

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_09]: It's not something that is motivating you

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_09]: to keep on living.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_09]: So the categorical desires are the desires

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_09]: that motivate you to want your life to be extended.

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_09]: The contingent desires are just the desires

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_09]: for things knowing that your life is extended.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_09]: And Williams' point is you'd run out of

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_09]: categorical desires and once you've run out

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_09]: of categorical desires, there's nothing left

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_09]: for you as you anymore to motivate you.

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_09]: And that would be a dreary alienating experience.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_07]: Right.

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_07]: I can definitely catch the intuition

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_07]: that after a while,

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_07]: shit would get old.

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_07]: Like you would want to die after a while

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_07]: and that if you couldn't die,

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_07]: it reminds me of Groundhog Day, the movie.

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_07]: Like there is a spell in which

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_07]: so he's reliving the same day.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_07]: There's a spell in there where he is just

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_07]: so bored of everything that all he does

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_07]: is try to kill himself in various ways.

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_07]: And I can see immortality being a curse

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_07]: if that's the point you get to

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_07]: where we're not living out the same day

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_07]: but given enough time,

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_07]: you're living out the same shit over and over again eventually.

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_07]: And so it could seem unsatisfying.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean continue the paper because I don't know

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_07]: that this is really a fatal objection.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_09]: Well why not?

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_09]: And then I'll talk about the Schaeffler problem too.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean it seems to me that

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_07]: that's a claim

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_07]: that doesn't seem

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_07]: born out in human experience.

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_07]: Like the world is finite

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_07]: but there is a lot of shit to do

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_07]: and there is nothing in the number say

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_07]: 75 or whatever the average age is

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_07]: to indicate that like doubling that

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_07]: would all of a sudden or tripling it

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_07]: or quadrupling it,

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_07]: you would all of a sudden run out of things to do

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_07]: or you would cease to be able to

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_07]: inculcate new categorical desires.

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_09]: But at some point you would.

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah so...

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_09]: It's okay like you can...

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't think Williams Point depends on it being

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_09]: 300 years old.

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_09]: It could be 3,000, it could be...

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah I don't know.

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_07]: I actually was having an argument

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_07]: with my housemate about this last night

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_07]: because I was saying that I was actually

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_07]: defending Williams.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_07]: But it is possible that so long

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_07]: as there are things to do

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_07]: and so long as there are other people around

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_07]: that you could simply just like we go through

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_07]: 75 years of doing different shit

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_07]: without getting bored,

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_07]: you can imagine that as the world changes

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_07]: you could just continue to do this

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_07]: at least until the world ends.

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_09]: Right.

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_09]: Like think about if you were alive 2,000 years ago

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_09]: the world is completely different than now.

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_09]: So there's all...

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah so the question is

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_09]: can you generate enough new categorical desires

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_09]: continually to make that worthwhile?

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_09]: So then I guess Williams' response

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_09]: to that would be

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_09]: but it's not you anymore at that point.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_09]: There's no you that's keeping going.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_09]: There's just a new person

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_09]: with new categorical desires.

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah perhaps but

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know that that wouldn't also apply

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_07]: in this perfidiant way to life

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_07]: across 75 years.

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_07]: It's very possible

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_07]: that it is just

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_07]: a true claim that

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_07]: Tamler at your age

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_07]: is almost certainly not you

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_07]: in that sense as Tamler age 12

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_07]: because you have so many different categorical desires

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_07]: and so I think that the continuity of self

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_07]: might not depend on that.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_07]: I would be comfortable just

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_07]: in having whatever if it's illusory

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_07]: then it's illusory

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_07]: but that continuation of self over time

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_07]: so that I actually have the memory

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_07]: of 300 years ago

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_07]: and that I used to have different desires.

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_09]: So then it's almost an empirical claim

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_09]: that at some point

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_09]: you're just going to get sick of the living.

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_07]: Right now and that gets

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_07]: to what I think

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_07]: turns on more of a mathematical claim

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_07]: that I don't know what to think of

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_07]: because I'm not smart enough but

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_07]: if they're like infinity is just

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_07]: a really really wacky concept

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_07]: but if you live eternally

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_07]: will you end up

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_07]: repeating everything?

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_07]: Will you exhaust the possibility

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_07]: of things to do

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_07]: just by mathematical definition

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_07]: that is will you

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_07]: in infinite universes

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_07]: there just exists

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_07]: a universe with one slightly different thing.

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_07]: In living eternally

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_07]: would you experience

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_07]: everything there is to experience

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_07]: multiple times?

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_09]: This is like the eternal recurrence

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_09]: like Nietzsche

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_09]: did not

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_09]: turn into a porn thing

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_09]: but I suppose you could.

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_07]: Condemn to jerk off

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_07]: to the same thing

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_07]: You better pick well, you better choose well.

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah and that turns on

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_07]: like right so it's hard

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_07]: to nail down that concept of infinity

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_07]: and it does still seem to

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_07]: be contingent on

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_07]: where you're living

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_07]: and like are you around

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_07]: other things because

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_07]: I take it that the thought of just

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_07]: floating around as a conscious

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_07]: creature in the void

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_07]: even though in some sense you're assuming that's like horrible.

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_09]: Should we talk about Scheffler's?

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah so and actually

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_09]: we could do this book at some point

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_09]: it's a very short book

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_09]: Samuel Scheffler from NYU

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_09]: has suggested that the real problem

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_09]: with the fantasy of immortality

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_09]: is that it doesn't make sense

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_09]: as a coherent desire.

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_09]: Scheffler points out that human life

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_09]: is intimately structured by the fact

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_09]: that it has a fixed

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_09]: even if usually unknown

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_09]: time limit.

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_09]: We all start with a birth then pass through many stages of life

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_09]: before definitely ending

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_09]: in death.

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_09]: In turn Scheffler argues

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_09]: everything that we value

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_09]: and thus can coherently desire

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_09]: in an essentially human life

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_09]: must take as a

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_09]: given the fact that we are temporally

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_09]: bounded beings.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_09]: We can imagine what it would be like

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_09]: to be immortal but

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_09]: in doing so we will obscure

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_09]: a basic truth that because

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_09]: death is a fixed fact everything

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_09]: that human beings value makes sense

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_09]: only in light of our time being finite

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_09]: or choices being limited

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_09]: and our each getting only so many

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_09]: goes before it's over.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_07]: Right so I think there's something

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_07]: that's

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_07]: deeply true about this

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_07]: you know and we've talked about this

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_07]: in terms of sort of the sense

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_07]: of meaning in life

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_07]: there is something about

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_07]: the knowledge that life is limited

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_07]: that

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_07]: creates the

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_07]: bonds that we have so

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_07]: and we get a sense

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_07]: of meaning out of knowing that we

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_07]: have a limited time

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_07]: to exist.

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_07]: It sounds right to me that

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_07]: that is

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_07]: such a fundamental part

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_07]: of our existence that it's hard

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_07]: to imagine what it's like to be

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_07]: outside of that and what it would mean

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_07]: to have those desires.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_07]: I think that when I think of

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_07]: immortality I just think my template

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_07]: is just this life

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_07]: over and over like all of my

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_07]: desires here but now just keep multiplying it

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_07]: just keep multiplying keep multiplying it.

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_07]: I can see where you know

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_07]: and in fiction sometimes

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_07]: where people

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_07]: there are people who become internal beings

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_07]: they stop caring about all

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_07]: sort of temporal things.

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_09]: That's the issue

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean like

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_09]: think about doing something like

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_09]: working on a project writing a grant

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_09]: writing a book

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_09]: if you knew you were going to

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_09]: live forever is there any motivation

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_09]: to do those things now?

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_07]: Right paradoxically

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_07]: you have you're living forever

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_07]: and you're by dint of living forever

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_07]: you're losing the capacity to have

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_07]: those fulfilling meaningful tasks.

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah those things I need to get this

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_09]: done now

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_09]: and I need to now it could just be

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_09]: that you need to get it done now

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_09]: because otherwise

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_09]: you won't get a good raise and you'll be less

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_09]: comfortable for this but

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_09]: that tends to be not

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_09]: why we do these

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_09]: things like it's just our whole

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_09]: category of desiring might depend

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_09]: and valuing might depend

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_09]: on the fact that we know we're not going to be

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_09]: here forever.

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_07]: Right what you said

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_07]: about like yeah maybe you're doing the project just because you need

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_07]: a paycheck just because you need to sleep in a bed

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_07]: with a roof over your head

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_07]: that is just very much the contingent desires

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_07]: like no one wants to live because they want

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_07]: to be able to pay their bills and have a roof over their head

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_07]: like that's not

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah so like

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_09]: in this sense but it's different in the sense

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_09]: that it's not

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_09]: like Williams thought you could still

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_09]: have categorical desires but maybe

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_09]: you'd run out of them in this case you wouldn't

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_09]: even you would have a hard time

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_09]: having categorical desires in the

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_09]: first place because

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah because the very things that we

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_07]: desire are

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_07]: intrinsically linked to

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_07]: the kind of existence that we have.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_09]: Do you think that this matters

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_09]: like how many people

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_09]: if anybody is also

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_09]: so immortal?

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean I was thinking about that

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_07]: because belief in the afterlife say the

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_07]: traditional Christian view of heaven is

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_07]: that you're with family and friends and all the

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_07]: good people and you're all living forever

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_07]: and you can all interact with each other

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_07]: and there's

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_07]: some infinity of existence

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_07]: with other creatures

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_07]: who are also infinite.

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_07]: it's so hard for me to conceive of that

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_07]: that I find myself

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_07]: this actually

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_07]: it doesn't seem at all

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_07]: comforting to think I'm going to live forever

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_07]: with the same people.

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_09]: You're still like

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_09]: we're gonna be doing this forever.

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean shit already feels like forever

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_09]: when we record. It feels like eternity.

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know yeah.

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_09]: So here's a couple of things

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_09]: that would make me definitely not want to

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_09]: live forever. I think

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_09]: you know even

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_09]: setting aside the considerations more practically

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_09]: like if you got old

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_09]: and you're like just

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_09]: getting decrepit like but you're still living

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_09]: that would be

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_07]: it's like being a it's like the tragedy

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_07]: of being made a vampire when you're elderly.

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_07]: Exactly

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_09]: and then

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah I think

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_09]: like if like I don't want to

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_09]: like watch Eliza

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_09]: die like as an old woman

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_09]: and and then like her kids

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_09]: die and then you know

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_07]: well that's

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_07]: because you're not properly detached in the

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_07]: Buddhist way.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_07]: No but that's the point

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_07]: I think in a lot of these sort of

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_07]: speculative fiction whether it's vampires

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_07]: or some other kind of immortal

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_07]: they often express

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_07]: this

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_07]: the first round of friends and family

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_07]: that dies off right then you make new

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_07]: attachments and they die off you're basically

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_07]: condemned to watch everything you ever cared about

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_07]: get old

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_07]: and die and at that point

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_07]: it seems to me the only solution is really

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_07]: to find another source of meaning

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_07]: and devalue the life of

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_07]: any finite being.

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_09]: And that so the Greek gods are

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_09]: another good representation like a real

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_09]: exploration of what the difference would

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_09]: be if you were immortal

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_09]: versus mortal

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_09]: and so the gods are immortal

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_09]: they live forever humans

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_09]: are mortals but they have attachments to

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_09]: the mortals they have

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_09]: you know they have sex with them

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_09]: they fall in love with them

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_09]: they fight with them

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_09]: and

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_09]: I was talking about this

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_09]: because we're reading the Iliad in my

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_09]: great books class human situation

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_09]: with the students of what that

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_09]: like how does that

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_09]: make them feel about the humans

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_09]: so on one hand

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_09]: it makes

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_07]: By the way I hear that book is epic

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_09]: I do

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_09]: yes

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_09]: the on the one hand it's like

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_09]: you know it's sort of sad for them to see

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_09]: the people that they love

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_09]: get old and die including some of their kids

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_09]: but it also does seem

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_09]: like it makes them

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_09]: detached from the

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_09]: humans in a way that they'll use

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_09]: them more as playthings sometimes

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_09]: and like set them off against each other

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_09]: maybe because

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_09]: you can't get too attached

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_09]: to

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_07]: right it makes the gods seem cruel

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_07]: but I always thought that

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_07]: the pantheon of gods

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_07]: in not just the Greeks

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_07]: but in Norse mythology as well

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_07]: I always thought like that's weird

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_07]: that they are being so human

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_07]: like that they're interacting right

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_07]: you would think that being eternal

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_07]: and invulnerable and all

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_07]: powerful would mean that

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_07]: why would you care

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_07]: about these little cockroaches running around

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_07]: and so they're like

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_07]: I guess before this conversation I just thought well that was just

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_07]: it's because we have such a bad template

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_07]: right we're just completely

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_07]: you know anthropomorphizing

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_07]: the gods which is I think

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_07]: the original use of the term anthropomorphism

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_07]: was attributing

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_07]: human-like qualities to gods

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_07]: because we're not capable

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_07]: really of thinking of the existence

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_07]: of an eternal creature who would

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_07]: you know what their desires would be

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_07]: so we just gave them our desires

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_07]: and that doesn't make sense

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_07]: unless they really are just

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_07]: you know

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_07]: like a little kid

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_07]: burning ants with a magnifying glass

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_09]: but they'd yeah

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_09]: right it wouldn't make sense

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_09]: that they would

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_09]: that you would create gods like that

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_09]: or that those would kind of evolve

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_09]: because yeah that's just terrible

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_09]: there has to be something

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_09]: that they're providing you

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_09]: and some attachment that they have of you

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_09]: to even think about them

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_09]: as any different from

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_09]: just other forces you don't understand

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_07]: right it's

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_07]: interesting because

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_07]: God as an eternal being like some monotheistic

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_07]: God who created the universe

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_07]: given this conversation

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_07]: it really does become unclear to me

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_07]: why it would ever

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_07]: care to create anything

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_07]: like what

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_07]: you know it's like let me create

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_07]: these things that are a sliver of time

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_07]: in

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_07]: my infinite existence

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_07]: and make them build buildings and sing to me

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_07]: or whatever

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_07]: that seems so weird like why would he care

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_07]: or she care

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_07]: about that right

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_09]: or she chilled

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_07]: no I'm just just

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah covering your bases

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah no

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_09]: but again like I think the

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_09]: monotheistic

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_09]: Christian especially God

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_09]: is supposed to be

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_09]: a little bit something that you

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_09]: can't fully conceive of

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_09]: that's just infused with love

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_09]: and like all the other hippie

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_09]: stuff right right

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_09]: but here's a counter to

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_09]: the claim that you wouldn't want to

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_09]: get old and just see everything

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_09]: that you cared about die

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_09]: pets right like

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_09]: it's more of a counter for me because you

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_09]: actually are convinced you shouldn't have

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_09]: pets for some reason but I love

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_09]: my pets and I'm grateful

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_09]: to have them and I know that

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_09]: they're gonna die and I'll watch them die

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_09]: and it's terrible but then

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_09]: I'll get a new one and then

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_09]: so why couldn't you just do that like

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_09]: that and I have

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_09]: deep love for my pets like

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm not it's this isn't

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_09]: right duct you I'd absurd him of this view I

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_09]: love my pets very very much

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_07]: right that's a that's a really

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_07]: good example and

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm trying to think what

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_07]: the difference is I

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_07]: there is something I don't know if it's relevant

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_07]: but there is something different

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_07]: about

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_07]: pets

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_07]: in that they really are just these

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_07]: creatures that give you unconditional

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_07]: love and and

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_07]: life is fairly simple

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_07]: and it's not that I don't want to say

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_07]: we're less invested in their life

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_07]: but it's definitely a less complex

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_07]: interaction

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_07]: that you have where you're struggling

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_07]: to

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_07]: to cooperate

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_07]: in some broad sense with the

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_07]: conflicting interests and desires

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_07]: of someone you love and work out

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_07]: all of the kinks in your relationship

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_07]: and to keep

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_07]: doing that and having people die it sort

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_07]: of reminds me of the despair that some

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_07]: people feel after they've had multiple

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_07]: relationships that ended

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_07]: with nothing permanent coming

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_07]: out of them they get some sort of

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_07]: fatigue

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_07]: like why am I going to start this

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_07]: next relationship if it's just

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_07]: going to end in arguing or whatever

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_07]: and

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_07]: and it seems

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_07]: it seems different

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_07]: right it seems like I would

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_07]: grow fatigued I agree with you you could have

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_07]: 10 dogs your whole life each of them living

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_07]: 12 to 15 years and this doesn't

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_07]: seem as miserable as

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_07]: as watching your children

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_07]: die over and over again because

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_09]: but I mean also part of that is

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_09]: we

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_09]: know the lifespan of a dog

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_09]: right so it's going to be much worse

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_09]: it would be much worse for us

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_09]: if our child

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_09]: dies if then if a

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_09]: dog dies but

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_09]: that's because we know the normal life span

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_09]: of it I mean it's not the only reason

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_09]: but it's one reason is we know the normal life span

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_09]: of a dog and we know the normal life span

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_09]: of a human and

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_09]: so I don't know if we can imagine

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_09]: how we'd feel about watching

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_09]: our daughter

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_09]: die our daughters die when they were

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_09]: 88 years old

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_09]: or something like that right right right

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah it maybe like is it

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_09]: a different totally different analysis

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_09]: if the question is

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_09]: do you want to live for 5000

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_09]: years and then die

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_09]: or do you want to live forever

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_07]: it's weird because I

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_07]: have this weird intuition

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_07]: that seems contradictory

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_07]: which is I never want to die

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_07]: but I don't want to live forever and in this essay

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_07]: Seger is that he pronouncing that

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_07]: describes this

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_07]: character from a Sanskrit

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_07]: poem

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_07]: where

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_07]: there's a warrior

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_07]: who's granted this boon of

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_07]: quote unquote death upon desire

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_07]: so

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_07]: he can die whenever he wants he's immortal

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_07]: but he could just choose to die whenever he wants

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_07]: and that's it seems like

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_07]: that's what I would want

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_09]: to be able to choose when you die

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_07]: right

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_07]: and I think that

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_07]: that my intuition

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_07]: that who wants to live

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_07]: 3000 years would probably

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_07]: be defeated if you got a

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_07]: 3000 year old and ask them if they want to keep

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_07]: living they probably would be like

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_07]: yeah I want to keep living in much the same

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_07]: way that like when you're young you're like oh I don't

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_07]: want to be whatever 85 years

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_07]: old

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_07]: but as the 80s approach you're like

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean I don't want to die

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_07]: but then there

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_09]: does come a certain point where you're like

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't like you're looking at the person

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_09]: and you're like I don't know like I just

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_09]: don't want to be that

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_07]: yeah but that's because

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_07]: life the quality of life really

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_07]: goes down right I think that if you had

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_07]: a spry 100 year old

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_07]: with all their wits about them and no

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_07]: major physical problems you wouldn't

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_07]: you there's no reason to want them to die

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_07]: or that they would want to die I think

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_07]: right say for

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah it's more from

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_09]: the younger perspective you say

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_09]: to yourself I don't want to be

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_09]: that and you start telling your family

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_09]: but

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_09]: like you have to like not let me

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_07]: get to that state

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_07]: right right you know there's an interesting

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_07]: medical problem

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_07]: or at least a policy

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_07]: issue here where people

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_07]: are often

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_07]: told to give advanced

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_07]: directives like what

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_07]: like do you want to live

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_07]: if you're on life support or given certain

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_07]: contingencies would you want

[00:49:56] [SPEAKER_07]: to die

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_07]: or would you want to be resuscitated

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_07]: and so people make

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_07]: people you know

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_07]: write up a legal document with these desires

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_07]: but there's research showing

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_07]: that what you think

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_07]: you want when you're healthy

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_07]: and young versus when you're

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_07]: old and in bed or sick even

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_07]: in bed it's very different your desires

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_07]: really change and it's

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_07]: unclear who the true

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_07]: like you know who is the authority here

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_07]: right David time one who is making

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_07]: a healthy decision like

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_07]: people say like I would never want to

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_07]: be

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_07]: live if I were

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_07]: paralyzed from the neck down

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_07]: right but then people who do get

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_07]: paralyzed

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_07]: they probably go through some depression

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_07]: but it's not like they're

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_07]: probably no different suicidal

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_07]: they bounce back

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_07]: so I want to say that to me

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_07]: the ultimate is this boon of

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_07]: death upon desire

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_07]: whenever I decide

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_07]: I also sometimes think like you know

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_07]: some vampires do this right they'll just

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_07]: go in their coffin for like a hundred years

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_07]: when you're getting kind of bored with things

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_09]: just be able to like switch things up

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_09]: like just come out in a totally new

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_07]: era yeah I sometimes I want to do that

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_07]: now just like voluntary

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_07]: like mild coma

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_07]: for a week because just been so

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_07]: shitty so I'm just

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_09]: getting a good night's sleep sometimes does

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_09]: that yeah are you like like

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_09]: I can't deal with this paper and alright

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_09]: so you go to sleep wake up early next day

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_09]: it's like oh this is easy like what was the

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_09]: problem

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_07]: although I haven't had that in a while

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_07]: but yes

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_09]: so that's

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_09]: the thing about the Scheffler piece he's saying

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_09]: that like all of a sudden we're

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_09]: granted immortality

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_09]: with like

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_09]: that like shatters our identity

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_09]: or at least this is one way of understanding

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_09]: it like all of a sudden we've been

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_09]: obliterated just

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_09]: with that knowledge because we don't

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_09]: understand life are

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_09]: who we are

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_09]: and what we're about has been

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_09]: entirely shaped by the

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_09]: finiteness of human life

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_09]: it's been premised on that

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_09]: and so now that we don't have

[00:52:06] [SPEAKER_09]: that it's like we're not us anymore

[00:52:08] [SPEAKER_09]: but I think your point

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_09]: like we're not us

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_09]: anyway like in 70 years

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_09]: and then you know

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_09]: 10 years so a lot of these identity

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_09]: things it's not clear that they're getting at

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_09]: a specific problem with immortality

[00:52:22] [SPEAKER_07]: right I don't know if it's just

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_07]: in principle violating what it means

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_07]: to be human to live for

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_07]: very long periods of time

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_07]: when it comes to like thousands

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_07]: and thousands of years or

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_07]: even at any given moment if you find

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_07]: me and you ask me do you want to die

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_07]: probably would say no

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_09]: well I don't know like that's the question

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_09]: in the Williams piece

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_09]: you might at some point she had

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_09]: that she could live and then

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_09]: she died and then

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_09]: she just said okay that's it I'm done

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_07]: yeah I mean

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_09]: would you take that right now

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_07]: take what 300 years

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_09]: just a button like that elixir

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_09]: where you can

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_09]: essentially as long

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_09]: as you keep drinking it you'll be alive

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_09]: but if you stop then you'll die

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_07]: yeah I don't see why not right

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean this is death upon desire sort of

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_07]: you know maybe it would get to a point

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_07]: where everybody

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_07]: I've ever known is completely dead

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_07]: but I kind of think that I would have

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_07]: you know in a

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_07]: ship of these way like

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_07]: I am I have continuity of relationships

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_07]: with new people

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_07]: over time and

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_07]: it doesn't seem to me to be an imprincipal

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_07]: objection

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_09]: but I mean like would you

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_09]: because knowing that would you

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_09]: would your attachments not be as deep

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_07]: yeah I don't know

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_07]: and I think this is where your pet analogy

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_07]: comes in right so

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_07]: so you live say

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_07]: 80 years your pets live 10 years

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_07]: that it devalues your relationship

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't at least

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_07]: in principle like I don't know I don't see

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_07]: given

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_07]: given the way we are now and the way we deal with people

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_07]: dying

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_07]: in our lives and the way

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_07]: we start kind of just keep on

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't see anything there's no

[00:54:12] [SPEAKER_07]: period of time in which I can say

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_07]: no this imprincipal will

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_07]: violate even what it means

[00:54:18] [SPEAKER_07]: to have an attachment I feel like we'll just

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_07]: continue doing what we're doing

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_07]: I feel like the worst that would happen is you just

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_07]: sort of enter into a

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_07]: this sort of

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_07]: depression or suicidal depression

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_07]: that people enter into all the time

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_07]: now and you may or you may not

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think that there's anything really about living

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_07]: for a very long time that would start

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_09]: doing that

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_09]: so here's a question on that point

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_09]: so I was just thinking what if dogs

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_09]: lived for

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_09]: 80 years instead

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_09]: of 10 years

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_09]: maybe we would be

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_09]: more attached to them

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_09]: than we are

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_09]: like imagine just having a dog

[00:54:55] [SPEAKER_09]: like I have a dog now that I've had since I was 5

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_09]: like that's

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_09]: like it's as much as

[00:55:02] [SPEAKER_09]: deep as my connection is to my dogs right now

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_09]: maybe it's shallower

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_09]: than it would be. Would you have a dog now

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_09]: that I also

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_09]: had no I'm saying if

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_09]: so what you

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_09]: said was you don't think that it would

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_09]: necessarily devalue because look at

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_09]: pets it doesn't seem to

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_09]: devalue our attachment to them that

[00:55:22] [SPEAKER_09]: they are right but then

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_09]: I was just suggesting maybe

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_09]: if they lived longer

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_09]: we would be even more attached

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_09]: to them so in fact it does

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_09]: devalue our attachment to them

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_09]: the fact that they only live for 10 years

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_07]: yeah it's an interesting question because I can

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_07]: see the intuition going the other way where

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_07]: given that you

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_07]: know

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_07]: that you only have 10 years with them

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_07]: that you

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_07]: you just you really

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_07]: and this is why I guess

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean that was your original point and I guess

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_07]: my response was the relationship we have

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_07]: with pets is very different like

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_07]: a dog

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_07]: you got a good 10-12 years with them

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_07]: you can always go as they start getting older

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_07]: you just start giving them more love

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_07]: because you know your time is limited and you're just like

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_07]: you know you're just

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_07]: pampering them and you're just

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_09]: you become a more giving lover

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_07]: so I don't know there is something

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_07]: you know

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_07]: there is a comfort in

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_07]: the uncertainty of knowing

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_07]: when anybody you care about is going to die

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_07]: I think that that really

[00:56:25] [SPEAKER_07]: right we kind of have a

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_07]: sense with pets

[00:56:29] [SPEAKER_07]: right there is a plus or minus

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_07]: a few years and that is within our lifetime

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_07]: and

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_07]: and even then it's hard because

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_07]: you always think they could go a little bit longer

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_07]: but with human beings

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_07]: it would be really hard to become

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_07]: really good friends with somebody who

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_07]: had a lifespan of 10 years

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_07]: yeah like would you enter

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_07]: a relationship into a relationship with somebody

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_07]: who knew was going to die

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_07]: for sure was going to die yeah

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_07]: like maybe a death row inmate

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_09]: this is getting really morbid but

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_09]: and there are people who have that situation

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_09]: you know their

[00:57:02] [SPEAKER_09]: husband or wife is going to die in

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_09]: 5 years and I don't think

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_09]: I think number

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_09]: 1 but see this is forced on them

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_09]: yes but like

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_07]: they're not choosing to enter

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_07]: into a relationship with

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_09]: but once they know about it they're glad

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_09]: they know about it

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_09]: like let's say I was

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_09]: I was asking I talked

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_09]: about this in my class too if I knew that I only

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_09]: had one year to live

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_09]: would I tell

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_09]: Eliza would I tell my wife

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_09]: Jen

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_09]: and I thought and I said in class

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't think I would tell my daughter

[00:57:37] [SPEAKER_09]: but I'd probably tell my wife and then I came home

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_09]: and I sort of and my daughter was like

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_09]: I would be so fucking pissed at you

[00:57:44] [SPEAKER_09]: if you didn't she doesn't think she said

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_09]: fuck right she said I'd be so mad

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_09]: at you if you didn't tell me

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_09]: because of all the times that

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_09]: like you know she was doing

[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_09]: some bullshit instead of

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_09]: spending time so just

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_09]: instead of spending time with me in the

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_09]: in the last year so as devastating

[00:58:01] [SPEAKER_09]: as it would be she would want to know that

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_09]: so that she can make the most out of it

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_09]: but I think that might generalize

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_09]: to maybe

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_09]: our knowledge of that makes us

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_09]: want to make the most of our time

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_09]: on earth

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_09]: and if you take that away from us

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_09]: that uncertainty about

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_09]: when we're gonna die or the

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_09]: finite limit

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_09]: that we know we're gonna die and then

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_09]: we no longer have that kind of

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_09]: urgency to propel us

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_07]: right you know it reminds me

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_07]: rewatching the Sopranos for the end

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_07]: time and there is

[00:58:38] [SPEAKER_07]: so fucking good

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_07]: I think it was second season

[00:58:42] [SPEAKER_07]: where

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_07]: Tony Sopranos just entered into just real

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_07]: real deep depression

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_07]: and

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_07]: the thing that snaps him out of it is the attempted

[00:58:52] [SPEAKER_07]: the hit that his uncle put

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_07]: out on him he survives it

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_07]: narrowly

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_07]: and he's just like boom he's just kicked

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_07]: right out of that depression right he's

[00:59:02] [SPEAKER_07]: all of a sudden just happy to be alive

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_07]: this is the story of the Sopranos

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_07]: I think everybody

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_07]: you get comfortable in thinking you're gonna

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_07]: be around forever nothing

[00:59:12] [SPEAKER_07]: about it's gonna happen and then and then something snaps

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_07]: you out of it temporarily

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_07]: you know maybe eternally

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_07]: this is the thing is that if you know you're never

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_07]: gonna die

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_07]: you both have

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_07]: the certainty that the

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_07]: people you love have a finite existence so

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_07]: you might want to create a deeper connection

[00:59:29] [SPEAKER_07]: with them and you would do that over and over again

[00:59:31] [SPEAKER_07]: much like a pet but on the other

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_07]: hand

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_07]: you don't ever have that sense of urgency for

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_07]: yourself right about anything

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_07]: for anything there's

[00:59:41] [SPEAKER_07]: no there's no sees the day

[00:59:43] [SPEAKER_07]: every day is like another day

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah that's why I don't even know if

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_09]: I would want to take that elixir

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_09]: like or you know have the elixir

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_09]: because I do think a lot

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_09]: of the ways in which I approach life

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_09]: and enjoy life

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_09]: involves that knowledge that

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_09]: you know this could be it sounds

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_09]: cliche but yeah sees the day

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_09]: like you don't know if this day will be your last

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_09]: you take that away

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_09]: I do know like for sure

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_09]: that this day this week

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_09]: is not gonna be my last or this month

[01:00:14] [SPEAKER_09]: or this year yeah that

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_09]: maybe that does take away some of

[01:00:18] [SPEAKER_09]: the visceral way

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_09]: I understand myself

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_09]: and I understand what I'm doing

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_07]: right it's

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_07]: really hard to

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_07]: try to intuit what that does to us the only thing

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_07]: I can think of is

[01:00:31] [SPEAKER_07]: you know when you're really young you kind

[01:00:34] [SPEAKER_07]: of feel immortal

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_07]: invincible

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_07]: and I don't know

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_07]: if that

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_07]: has a substantive influence

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_07]: on the way that you approach life

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_07]: but you really do feel

[01:00:47] [SPEAKER_07]: the yeah you just don't think

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_09]: you're gonna die you know in some

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_09]: abstract sense that you are but you don't

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_09]: feel it at any level

[01:00:54] [SPEAKER_09]: but on the other hand you can completely

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_09]: enjoy life and

[01:00:58] [SPEAKER_09]: there is exactly so

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_09]: that's sort of a counter

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_09]: to what I was suggesting which is

[01:01:05] [SPEAKER_09]: it doesn't seem to bother kids

[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_09]: but then that could also be something about being

[01:01:09] [SPEAKER_09]: kids yeah I know

[01:01:11] [SPEAKER_07]: that's exactly it's

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_09]: they're like they're not worried

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_09]: about anything they're like

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_07]: it's almost it's very

[01:01:19] [SPEAKER_07]: sad when the anxiety starts creeping in

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_07]: I remember when my daughter

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_07]: was

[01:01:25] [SPEAKER_07]: a toddler

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_07]: she loved it when I would like punch

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_07]: the accelerator

[01:01:30] [SPEAKER_07]: right and like it was just so fun for her

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_07]: she'd ask me like do this sometimes on

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_07]: an empty street I would just be

[01:01:37] [SPEAKER_07]: going slow and then for like five seconds

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_07]: and just take off and she would feel

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_07]: everybody and then at some point

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_07]: she was like don't like

[01:01:45] [SPEAKER_07]: don't do that dad like she was like really upset

[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_07]: with me for doing it and I

[01:01:49] [SPEAKER_07]: realized that in between those two times

[01:01:51] [SPEAKER_07]: she had realized that existence

[01:01:53] [SPEAKER_07]: ends right and

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_09]: that you were like a really bad dangerous

[01:01:58] [SPEAKER_09]: driver did I

[01:01:59] [SPEAKER_09]: should we talk about the other the

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_09]: actual process of dying

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_07]: yeah this is a recent paper

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_07]: published by a set of psychologists

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_07]: among them

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_07]: Kirk Gray whom some marlishers might know

[01:02:11] [SPEAKER_07]: Adam weights Michael Norton

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_07]: and

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_07]: I think two students who

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not ignoring on purpose I just don't know

[01:02:19] [SPEAKER_07]: them Amelia Gorinson and Ryan Ritter called

[01:02:21] [SPEAKER_07]: dying is unexpectedly positive

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_07]: and this this is an interesting

[01:02:25] [SPEAKER_07]: idea I mean there the there are limitations

[01:02:27] [SPEAKER_07]: to the method in which you do this but one of the

[01:02:29] [SPEAKER_07]: reasons I like this paper was because they

[01:02:31] [SPEAKER_07]: use pretty interesting

[01:02:35] [SPEAKER_07]: sources of

[01:02:35] [SPEAKER_07]: data to try to answer the question

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_07]: is the process of dying really

[01:02:40] [SPEAKER_07]: as bad as you think it might be

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_07]: and they did

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_07]: probably they did two things they looked at

[01:02:46] [SPEAKER_07]: blog posts

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_07]: of people who were dying from a terminal illness

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_07]: and

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_07]: and who eventually died so they had

[01:02:54] [SPEAKER_07]: a record of of blog posts

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_07]: over time from cancer patients and

[01:02:58] [SPEAKER_07]: people with ALS

[01:03:00] [SPEAKER_07]: people who who generally

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_07]: still had their cognitive faculties intact but

[01:03:04] [SPEAKER_07]: who knew they were going to die and who

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_07]: who kept kept a blog

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_07]: and they

[01:03:10] [SPEAKER_07]: coded those entries for

[01:03:12] [SPEAKER_07]: positivity or negativity using

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_07]: a program that counts up positive

[01:03:16] [SPEAKER_07]: or negative emotion terms and

[01:03:18] [SPEAKER_07]: also having people

[01:03:20] [SPEAKER_07]: code them and rating

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_07]: them for how positive or negative and then

[01:03:24] [SPEAKER_07]: they had people write

[01:03:26] [SPEAKER_07]: fake blog posts

[01:03:29] [SPEAKER_07]: pretending as if they were

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_07]: terminally ill and they had people code

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_07]: those as well and really so this is just

[01:03:34] [SPEAKER_07]: demonstrating a prediction error that people

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_07]: when they write

[01:03:38] [SPEAKER_07]: a hypothetical

[01:03:40] [SPEAKER_07]: blog post about what it must be like to be dying

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_07]: it is more negative

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_07]: right there are more negative terms

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_07]: and there are fewer positive terms

[01:03:48] [SPEAKER_07]: and what they argue is that our intuition

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_07]: that the process of dying is full of negative

[01:03:52] [SPEAKER_07]: affect is wrong at least

[01:03:54] [SPEAKER_07]: relative

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_07]: to what people actually

[01:03:58] [SPEAKER_07]: seem to be expressing

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_07]: the second way that they looked at this was by looking

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_07]: at the last words of

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_07]: death row inmates

[01:04:06] [SPEAKER_07]: and again the intuition

[01:04:08] [SPEAKER_07]: being that it would be

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_07]: sad or angry

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_07]: or bitter or whatever

[01:04:13] [SPEAKER_07]: that knowing that you're about to die

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_07]: with 100% certainty in this case

[01:04:19] [SPEAKER_07]: would

[01:04:20] [SPEAKER_07]: be they would

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_07]: express negativity and in fact

[01:04:24] [SPEAKER_07]: compared to people who

[01:04:25] [SPEAKER_07]: were asked what would you say

[01:04:28] [SPEAKER_07]: if you were a death row inmate about to die

[01:04:30] [SPEAKER_07]: those words were also more

[01:04:32] [SPEAKER_07]: positive

[01:04:32] [SPEAKER_07]: now they say that

[01:04:35] [SPEAKER_09]: there's a lot of religion

[01:04:38] [SPEAKER_09]: that influences

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_09]: the death row inmates

[01:04:41] [SPEAKER_09]: and maybe also but yeah

[01:04:43] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean that's interesting

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_09]: I want to read their last paragraph

[01:04:47] [SPEAKER_09]: it says given the growing aging population

[01:04:50] [SPEAKER_09]: this work has potential to inform

[01:04:52] [SPEAKER_09]: the contentious political

[01:04:53] [SPEAKER_09]: debate surrounding

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_09]: palliative care currently

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_09]: the medical system is geared toward

[01:04:59] [SPEAKER_09]: avoiding death and avoidance

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_09]: that is often motivated by views

[01:05:03] [SPEAKER_09]: of death as terrible and tragic

[01:05:05] [SPEAKER_09]: this focus is understandable

[01:05:07] [SPEAKER_09]: giving cultural narratives of death's

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_09]: negativity but our results

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_09]: suggest that death is more positive

[01:05:13] [SPEAKER_09]: than people expect

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_09]: meeting the grim reaper may not be as grim

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_09]: as it seems so

[01:05:18] [SPEAKER_09]: it turns out like you know they want

[01:05:21] [SPEAKER_09]: to use these results to at least

[01:05:23] [SPEAKER_09]: suggest that we should

[01:05:27] [SPEAKER_09]: reallocate

[01:05:28] [SPEAKER_09]: resources in medicine

[01:05:30] [SPEAKER_09]: based on this idea

[01:05:32] [SPEAKER_07]: yeah

[01:05:33] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean I agree with the conclusion

[01:05:36] [SPEAKER_07]: in the sense that I think that

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_07]: we are so hyper focused on

[01:05:40] [SPEAKER_07]: extending life

[01:05:41] [SPEAKER_07]: often at the expense of quality

[01:05:44] [SPEAKER_07]: of life and that this is

[01:05:46] [SPEAKER_07]: something that is

[01:05:47] [SPEAKER_07]: perhaps counterintuitively to many people

[01:05:50] [SPEAKER_07]: a net bad

[01:05:52] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_07]: whether these results

[01:05:56] [SPEAKER_07]: one issue with these

[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_07]: results is

[01:06:00] [SPEAKER_07]: if you are really

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_07]: f**king pissed off that you are going to die

[01:06:02] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know that you are keeping a cancer blog

[01:06:04] [SPEAKER_07]: right

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_07]: there is a selection

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_07]: bias here where presumably

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_07]: the prison death row inmates

[01:06:14] [SPEAKER_07]: don't suffer

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_07]: from this everybody who is going to die

[01:06:17] [SPEAKER_07]: gets the chance to say last words

[01:06:19] [SPEAKER_07]: but it is sort of a

[01:06:21] [SPEAKER_07]: different very different thing

[01:06:23] [SPEAKER_07]: what your last words are

[01:06:24] [SPEAKER_07]: right before you get executed

[01:06:28] [SPEAKER_07]: there is a different

[01:06:29] [SPEAKER_07]: motivational goal

[01:06:30] [SPEAKER_07]: and in both cases

[01:06:33] [SPEAKER_07]: these are communicative

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_07]: they are not necessarily reflective

[01:06:37] [SPEAKER_07]: of their internal state

[01:06:38] [SPEAKER_07]: they are communication that they are making to the outward world

[01:06:41] [SPEAKER_07]: and I can very much see

[01:06:42] [SPEAKER_07]: like if I were dying

[01:06:45] [SPEAKER_07]: I would not pepper my

[01:06:47] [SPEAKER_07]: communications to my family with negativity

[01:06:49] [SPEAKER_09]: bitterness and

[01:06:51] [SPEAKER_09]: anger

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_07]: temporal existence

[01:06:54] [SPEAKER_07]: if only I had a few more years

[01:06:56] [SPEAKER_07]: even though I might be feeling that

[01:06:58] [SPEAKER_07]: so it is unclear to me

[01:07:00] [SPEAKER_07]: this is a measure

[01:07:02] [SPEAKER_07]: of what they think they are measuring

[01:07:04] [SPEAKER_07]: there is two problems

[01:07:06] [SPEAKER_09]: there is the problem

[01:07:07] [SPEAKER_09]: the selection bias

[01:07:10] [SPEAKER_09]: of just that you would

[01:07:12] [SPEAKER_09]: bother to write anything at all

[01:07:14] [SPEAKER_09]: especially public

[01:07:16] [SPEAKER_09]: suggests that you have a more positive

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_09]: feeling

[01:07:19] [SPEAKER_07]: if you are very depressed you are not ready to block

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_09]: if you are depressed and angry

[01:07:23] [SPEAKER_09]: there is no reason to write

[01:07:25] [SPEAKER_09]: you are not going to be motivated to write

[01:07:27] [SPEAKER_09]: and then there is the question of

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_09]: even if you set that aside

[01:07:31] [SPEAKER_09]: is what you write expressive of how you really feel

[01:07:35] [SPEAKER_09]: that's right

[01:07:35] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean the death row case

[01:07:38] [SPEAKER_09]: is clear

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_09]: often you are trying to atone

[01:07:41] [SPEAKER_09]: you are trying to talk

[01:07:43] [SPEAKER_09]: to the victims families

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_09]: you are motivated

[01:07:48] [SPEAKER_09]: by certain religious

[01:07:50] [SPEAKER_09]: concerns and

[01:07:52] [SPEAKER_07]: and it is all that is left of your legacy

[01:07:54] [SPEAKER_07]: in that moment too

[01:07:55] [SPEAKER_07]: what are you going to leave the world with

[01:07:57] [SPEAKER_07]: right and I guess the cancer blog

[01:08:00] [SPEAKER_09]: would be the same kind of thing

[01:08:01] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah

[01:08:04] [SPEAKER_09]: so yeah

[01:08:05] [SPEAKER_09]: do they address the selection bias

[01:08:08] [SPEAKER_09]: issue

[01:08:09] [SPEAKER_07]: I did not

[01:08:11] [SPEAKER_07]: read them addressing that

[01:08:14] [SPEAKER_07]: because that seems

[01:08:16] [SPEAKER_07]: yeah

[01:08:17] [SPEAKER_07]: pretty devastating as a critique

[01:08:22] [SPEAKER_07]: you are not

[01:08:23] [SPEAKER_09]: I didn't think of it

[01:08:26] [SPEAKER_07]: yeah no I didn't see

[01:08:27] [SPEAKER_07]: I could have missed something

[01:08:29] [SPEAKER_07]: but they certainly don't discuss it in any

[01:08:32] [SPEAKER_07]: in any sort of systematic way

[01:08:34] [SPEAKER_07]: and I don't think they talk about it in the general

[01:08:37] [SPEAKER_07]: discussion

[01:08:38] [SPEAKER_07]: you know and maybe they would say

[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_07]: well still

[01:08:42] [SPEAKER_07]: it says something

[01:08:43] [SPEAKER_07]: that compared to people

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_07]: who are predicting writing a

[01:08:47] [SPEAKER_07]: cancer blog or an ALS blog

[01:08:49] [SPEAKER_07]: whatever that they are still more

[01:08:51] [SPEAKER_07]: positive than what those people

[01:08:53] [SPEAKER_07]: and that

[01:08:55] [SPEAKER_07]: to me seems right like maybe

[01:08:57] [SPEAKER_07]: we

[01:08:59] [SPEAKER_07]: think that it's going to be more negative

[01:09:00] [SPEAKER_07]: or maybe we think that you wouldn't even have it in you

[01:09:02] [SPEAKER_07]: to write a positive thing at that time in life

[01:09:05] [SPEAKER_07]: when people actually do have it in them

[01:09:06] [SPEAKER_07]: to communicate positivity

[01:09:07] [SPEAKER_07]: but I just don't know

[01:09:09] [SPEAKER_07]: whether that's as we just said

[01:09:11] [SPEAKER_07]: whether that's actually evidence that they are

[01:09:13] [SPEAKER_07]: feeling positivity

[01:09:15] [SPEAKER_07]: it's still an interesting finding that they

[01:09:17] [SPEAKER_07]: are more likely to

[01:09:19] [SPEAKER_07]: communicate positivity they have an interesting

[01:09:21] [SPEAKER_07]: I think it's just in a footnote

[01:09:23] [SPEAKER_07]: they were interested in whether

[01:09:25] [SPEAKER_07]: not just your average person

[01:09:27] [SPEAKER_07]: could tell the difference between a real

[01:09:30] [SPEAKER_07]: and a fake

[01:09:31] [SPEAKER_07]: yeah and people

[01:09:37] [SPEAKER_07]: couldn't

[01:09:37] [SPEAKER_07]: guess whether it was real or fake

[01:09:39] [SPEAKER_07]: so at least it passed muster

[01:09:41] [SPEAKER_09]: it's interesting

[01:09:43] [SPEAKER_09]: exercise actually to write

[01:09:45] [SPEAKER_09]: a blog post about dying

[01:09:47] [SPEAKER_09]: when you don't think you are dying

[01:09:50] [SPEAKER_07]: it really is and I wonder

[01:09:51] [SPEAKER_07]: yeah I wonder

[01:09:53] [SPEAKER_07]: you know they mentioned this

[01:09:55] [SPEAKER_07]: this body of work and in fact

[01:09:57] [SPEAKER_07]: the program that they used to

[01:09:59] [SPEAKER_07]: count up the words

[01:10:00] [SPEAKER_07]: to count up the emotion words

[01:10:03] [SPEAKER_07]: was developed originally by a researcher

[01:10:05] [SPEAKER_07]: named James Pennebaker

[01:10:07] [SPEAKER_07]: at UT Austin

[01:10:09] [SPEAKER_07]: who showed this

[01:10:11] [SPEAKER_07]: effect

[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_07]: many times that the process

[01:10:15] [SPEAKER_07]: of writing itself

[01:10:17] [SPEAKER_07]: is therapeutic

[01:10:19] [SPEAKER_07]: so the classic finding

[01:10:21] [SPEAKER_07]: is that you got

[01:10:23] [SPEAKER_07]: people who have been through a traumatic experience

[01:10:27] [SPEAKER_07]: if they just write down their traumatic experience

[01:10:30] [SPEAKER_07]: they actually have better

[01:10:31] [SPEAKER_07]: physical and mental health outcomes

[01:10:34] [SPEAKER_07]: you know

[01:10:35] [SPEAKER_07]: whenever time to measurement is

[01:10:37] [SPEAKER_07]: months down the line

[01:10:38] [SPEAKER_07]: then people who did not write it down

[01:10:41] [SPEAKER_07]: so they randomly assigned to write or not write

[01:10:43] [SPEAKER_07]: and so he was

[01:10:45] [SPEAKER_07]: interested in figuring out what

[01:10:47] [SPEAKER_07]: it was about the writing itself that was

[01:10:49] [SPEAKER_07]: that was doing the work

[01:10:51] [SPEAKER_07]: and I think last I checked

[01:10:53] [SPEAKER_07]: at least his argument

[01:10:55] [SPEAKER_07]: is that it forces

[01:10:57] [SPEAKER_07]: you to sort of

[01:11:00] [SPEAKER_07]: organize your thoughts

[01:11:02] [SPEAKER_07]: in a way that

[01:11:06] [SPEAKER_07]: because you have to organize

[01:11:08] [SPEAKER_07]: your thoughts in order to communicate them

[01:11:09] [SPEAKER_07]: linguistically and put them down on paper

[01:11:12] [SPEAKER_07]: what that's doing

[01:11:14] [SPEAKER_07]: that sort of cleaning up house

[01:11:15] [SPEAKER_07]: in your cognitive

[01:11:18] [SPEAKER_07]: in your mental world

[01:11:20] [SPEAKER_07]: and that that is doing good

[01:11:22] [SPEAKER_07]: work that is doing some work

[01:11:24] [SPEAKER_07]: toward

[01:11:26] [SPEAKER_07]: giving you clarity

[01:11:27] [SPEAKER_07]: and understanding and that's

[01:11:29] [SPEAKER_07]: that's good for you

[01:11:31] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean I totally feel that not from trauma

[01:11:34] [SPEAKER_09]: fortunately I'm lucky

[01:11:35] [SPEAKER_09]: but like when I write lectures

[01:11:38] [SPEAKER_09]: that I

[01:11:39] [SPEAKER_09]: am just learning what I

[01:11:41] [SPEAKER_09]: truly think about something

[01:11:43] [SPEAKER_09]: learning a lot just by

[01:11:45] [SPEAKER_09]: the active process

[01:11:47] [SPEAKER_09]: of writing it and trying to convey

[01:11:50] [SPEAKER_09]: it to people so

[01:11:51] [SPEAKER_07]: that's right and you realize the gaps in your knowledge

[01:11:53] [SPEAKER_07]: when you try to explain

[01:11:55] [SPEAKER_07]: something

[01:11:56] [SPEAKER_07]: it really is forcing you

[01:11:58] [SPEAKER_07]: to dig deeper

[01:12:00] [SPEAKER_07]: and figure out what exactly you're trying to say

[01:12:02] [SPEAKER_07]: and I can see

[01:12:04] [SPEAKER_07]: how that might

[01:12:06] [SPEAKER_07]: just be good for you when it's something that

[01:12:08] [SPEAKER_07]: in case of trauma

[01:12:10] [SPEAKER_07]: things like PTSD

[01:12:11] [SPEAKER_07]: you are

[01:12:14] [SPEAKER_07]: having a reliving

[01:12:16] [SPEAKER_07]: of these experiences over and over again

[01:12:18] [SPEAKER_07]: and it's a jumble

[01:12:20] [SPEAKER_07]: and it's confusing

[01:12:22] [SPEAKER_07]: and emotional

[01:12:23] [SPEAKER_07]: and just the active

[01:12:24] [SPEAKER_07]: of organizing your thoughts might help

[01:12:27] [SPEAKER_07]: sort of alleviate

[01:12:28] [SPEAKER_07]: the confusion at least

[01:12:30] [SPEAKER_07]: the confusion isn't the best word but

[01:12:33] [SPEAKER_07]: the

[01:12:34] [SPEAKER_07]: the impact of

[01:12:36] [SPEAKER_07]: the disorganized

[01:12:38] [SPEAKER_07]: emotions and thoughts you have about the event

[01:12:41] [SPEAKER_07]: yeah that's interesting

[01:12:42] [SPEAKER_09]: maybe do a

[01:12:43] [SPEAKER_09]: that paper

[01:12:45] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah

[01:12:48] [SPEAKER_09]: alright should we wrap up hopefully

[01:12:50] [SPEAKER_09]: or else this episode will become

[01:12:52] [SPEAKER_09]: traumatic for our listeners

[01:12:54] [SPEAKER_07]: and we'll have to and then we definitely won't write about it

[01:12:58] [SPEAKER_09]: so yeah

[01:12:59] [SPEAKER_09]: well do you feel better about dying now

[01:13:02] [SPEAKER_07]: I was gonna make a joke that

[01:13:04] [SPEAKER_07]: no but I actually feel

[01:13:06] [SPEAKER_07]: a little better

[01:13:08] [SPEAKER_09]: maybe podcasting also helps

[01:13:10] [SPEAKER_09]: that's right

[01:13:12] [SPEAKER_07]: it helps me want death more

[01:13:16] [SPEAKER_07]: it's just multiple mechanisms

[01:13:18] [SPEAKER_08]: it helps you prefer death

[01:13:21] [SPEAKER_08]: to just keeping

[01:13:22] [SPEAKER_08]: recording

[01:13:24] [SPEAKER_07]: exactly

[01:13:28] [SPEAKER_07]: anyway to all of the listeners I hope you don't die

[01:13:31] [SPEAKER_09]: yes

[01:13:32] [SPEAKER_09]: and if we're not dead

[01:13:35] [SPEAKER_09]: we will

[01:13:37] [SPEAKER_09]: see you next episode for our

[01:13:39] [SPEAKER_09]: 150th episode

[01:13:40] [SPEAKER_09]: holy shit

[01:13:42] [SPEAKER_09]: damn we didn't plan it

[01:13:44] [SPEAKER_07]: let's do nothing special

[01:13:48] [SPEAKER_07]: did sisyphus celebrate his 150th

[01:13:50] [SPEAKER_07]: roll up the rock

[01:13:53] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think that's where

[01:13:55] [SPEAKER_07]: yeah I don't think that's where meaning is

[01:13:57] [SPEAKER_07]: derived

[01:13:58] [SPEAKER_09]: and for those of you who have watched

[01:14:00] [SPEAKER_09]: the what's

[01:14:02] [SPEAKER_09]: probably the greatest artistic achievement

[01:14:04] [SPEAKER_09]: of the last

[01:14:06] [SPEAKER_09]: 25 30 40 years

[01:14:08] [SPEAKER_09]: Twin Peaks

[01:14:09] [SPEAKER_09]: stay tuned as

[01:14:12] [SPEAKER_09]: Eliza Summers will join me

[01:14:14] [SPEAKER_09]: and she's just gonna solve it

[01:14:16] [SPEAKER_09]: she's just going to wrap it up

[01:14:19] [SPEAKER_09]: in a tidy little bow

[01:14:20] [SPEAKER_09]: put us all out of our misery

[01:14:22] [SPEAKER_09]: trying to figure out what the hell

[01:14:24] [SPEAKER_09]: happened so stay tuned

[01:14:26] [SPEAKER_09]: after the music

[01:15:02] [SPEAKER_12]: very good man

[01:15:09] [SPEAKER_12]: just a very bad wizard

[01:15:12] [SPEAKER_09]: okay

[01:15:13] [SPEAKER_09]: and I am here

[01:15:16] [SPEAKER_09]: happy to be joined by

[01:15:18] [SPEAKER_09]: Eliza Summers

[01:15:19] [SPEAKER_09]: my daughter who you hear

[01:15:22] [SPEAKER_09]: every episode

[01:15:23] [SPEAKER_09]: right at the beginning of giving you a

[01:15:25] [SPEAKER_09]: warning about how inappropriate we're

[01:15:27] [SPEAKER_09]: gonna be she recorded that when she was 7

[01:15:29] [SPEAKER_09]: she is now 14

[01:15:31] [SPEAKER_09]: just starting her freshman year in

[01:15:33] [SPEAKER_09]: high school how's that going Lay?

[01:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: um

[01:15:37] [SPEAKER_01]: thank you Tamler it's pretty good

[01:15:40] [SPEAKER_09]: anyway

[01:15:41] [SPEAKER_09]: we are going to be or she is

[01:15:43] [SPEAKER_09]: going to be sharing her theory

[01:15:44] [SPEAKER_09]: about Twin Peaks

[01:15:47] [SPEAKER_09]: and Firewalk with me

[01:15:49] [SPEAKER_09]: and

[01:15:51] [SPEAKER_09]: the essentially David Lynch

[01:15:54] [SPEAKER_09]: related

[01:15:54] [SPEAKER_09]: material that we have been obsessed

[01:15:56] [SPEAKER_09]: with now for

[01:15:58] [SPEAKER_09]: over a year right

[01:16:00] [SPEAKER_09]: it's been about a little over a year

[01:16:02] [SPEAKER_09]: we've been obsessed with it it's pretty much all

[01:16:05] [SPEAKER_09]: you and I talk about we just

[01:16:07] [SPEAKER_09]: watched Last Highway last night

[01:16:08] [SPEAKER_09]: again so so don't

[01:16:11] [SPEAKER_09]: listen to this unless you have seen

[01:16:13] [SPEAKER_09]: all this stuff

[01:16:14] [SPEAKER_09]: and if you want to hear more of my

[01:16:16] [SPEAKER_09]: thoughts

[01:16:18] [SPEAKER_09]: way more of my thoughts than you'd ever

[01:16:20] [SPEAKER_09]: want to hear probably

[01:16:22] [SPEAKER_09]: um you could become a Patreon member

[01:16:24] [SPEAKER_09]: because there is a 3 hour recording

[01:16:26] [SPEAKER_09]: so Eliza

[01:16:28] [SPEAKER_09]: solve Twin Peaks the

[01:16:30] [SPEAKER_09]: return put me out

[01:16:32] [SPEAKER_09]: of my misery not figuring

[01:16:34] [SPEAKER_09]: out how it all fits together

[01:16:37] [SPEAKER_01]: okay

[01:16:38] [SPEAKER_01]: so here's the thing I noticed

[01:16:40] [SPEAKER_01]: in

[01:16:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like in episode 16

[01:16:44] [SPEAKER_01]: at the end of episode 16

[01:16:45] [SPEAKER_01]: um when in the road

[01:16:47] [SPEAKER_01]: house with Audrey and

[01:16:49] [SPEAKER_01]: the end of episode 18

[01:16:51] [SPEAKER_01]: when um Cooper

[01:16:53] [SPEAKER_01]: or Richard and Kerry Page

[01:16:55] [SPEAKER_01]: are at the

[01:16:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Palmer House there are a lot

[01:16:59] [SPEAKER_01]: like a lot a lot of parallels

[01:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: first they

[01:17:03] [SPEAKER_01]: they've both achieved their goals

[01:17:05] [SPEAKER_01]: of Audrey just

[01:17:07] [SPEAKER_01]: got out of the house and Cooper

[01:17:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and went to the road house

[01:17:10] [SPEAKER_01]: cause that's what she wanted to do

[01:17:12] [SPEAKER_01]: she wanted to go to the road house

[01:17:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and Cooper like found Laura

[01:17:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and took her home and then

[01:17:17] [SPEAKER_01]: something from real life is involved

[01:17:20] [SPEAKER_01]: like in episode 16

[01:17:22] [SPEAKER_01]: when the announcer says

[01:17:23] [SPEAKER_01]: ladies and gentlemen, Audrey's dance

[01:17:26] [SPEAKER_01]: that's what the song

[01:17:28] [SPEAKER_01]: was actually called in real life

[01:17:31] [SPEAKER_01]: on the soundtrack

[01:17:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and um

[01:17:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and then in episode 18

[01:17:36] [SPEAKER_01]: it's the actual owner

[01:17:38] [SPEAKER_01]: of that house

[01:17:40] [SPEAKER_01]: in real life

[01:17:41] [SPEAKER_09]: oh you've never even said that to me before

[01:17:45] [SPEAKER_09]: that idea

[01:17:46] [SPEAKER_09]: the no the Audrey's dance

[01:17:48] [SPEAKER_09]: being part of sort of

[01:17:50] [SPEAKER_09]: an allusion to what's actually real

[01:17:52] [SPEAKER_09]: and also Edward Severnson

[01:17:54] [SPEAKER_09]: is this real name instead of Eddie

[01:17:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and then Delaro is like

[01:17:58] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah is it a reality

[01:18:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and then

[01:18:02] [SPEAKER_01]: something traumatic and like in scary

[01:18:04] [SPEAKER_01]: happens in 16

[01:18:06] [SPEAKER_01]: it's the fight while she's dancing

[01:18:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and she's like sucked into the past

[01:18:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and then it like

[01:18:12] [SPEAKER_01]: violently takes her out of it

[01:18:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and in episode 16

[01:18:16] [SPEAKER_01]: you mean 18? yeah episode 18

[01:18:18] [SPEAKER_01]: um

[01:18:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's when the house

[01:18:22] [SPEAKER_01]: slash Sarah Palmer screams Laura

[01:18:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[01:18:27] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean it could also be

[01:18:30] [SPEAKER_09]: where

[01:18:31] [SPEAKER_09]: Sarah Palmer is not there

[01:18:33] [SPEAKER_09]: his goal is to bring her back home

[01:18:35] [SPEAKER_09]: and nobody knows who he's talking about

[01:18:38] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah it's not as violent as this

[01:18:39] [SPEAKER_01]: episode 16 but I think it still works

[01:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: as a parallel it's just something that

[01:18:43] [SPEAKER_01]: takes them out of like they're expecting

[01:18:46] [SPEAKER_01]: like Audrey's just expecting

[01:18:47] [SPEAKER_01]: to make it through her dance and Cooper's expecting to

[01:18:50] [SPEAKER_01]: do

[01:18:50] [SPEAKER_09]: it's real life intruding

[01:18:53] [SPEAKER_01]: real life intruding on the

[01:18:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Twin Peaks

[01:18:57] [SPEAKER_01]: like fantasy

[01:18:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and then

[01:19:00] [SPEAKER_01]: they both have almost

[01:19:02] [SPEAKER_01]: like the same exact look

[01:19:03] [SPEAKER_01]: on their face when Audrey's

[01:19:05] [SPEAKER_01]: running back to Charlie and she says like get me out

[01:19:08] [SPEAKER_01]: of here and then when Cooper says

[01:19:10] [SPEAKER_01]: what year is it they have like the same

[01:19:12] [SPEAKER_01]: exact look on their face like a like total

[01:19:14] [SPEAKER_01]: utter confusion

[01:19:15] [SPEAKER_01]: that I think is almost like

[01:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: when you wake up from a dream

[01:19:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and you're like kind of

[01:19:21] [SPEAKER_01]: disoriented

[01:19:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and then in

[01:19:26] [SPEAKER_01]: episode 16 this is where it gets

[01:19:28] [SPEAKER_01]: different

[01:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Audrey wakes up in a mental institution

[01:19:31] [SPEAKER_01]: institution and then

[01:19:33] [SPEAKER_01]: says what we're all thinking what

[01:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: like what

[01:19:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and then

[01:19:40] [SPEAKER_01]: but

[01:19:41] [SPEAKER_01]: in episode 18

[01:19:43] [SPEAKER_01]: it cuts to the red room

[01:19:47] [SPEAKER_09]: and almost like he's beginning another cycle

[01:19:50] [SPEAKER_01]: yes like

[01:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: well we don't know about the cycles yet

[01:19:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't talked about it yet

[01:19:54] [SPEAKER_01]: he's starting over

[01:19:56] [SPEAKER_09]: and maybe she's not starting over

[01:19:59] [SPEAKER_01]: right it's like he's pushed away reality

[01:20:01] [SPEAKER_01]: but

[01:20:03] [SPEAKER_01]: another parallel though

[01:20:04] [SPEAKER_01]: is in the credits

[01:20:07] [SPEAKER_01]: of episode 16

[01:20:08] [SPEAKER_01]: they play Audrey's dance

[01:20:11] [SPEAKER_01]: backwards

[01:20:11] [SPEAKER_01]: like how they

[01:20:14] [SPEAKER_01]: cause the red room how it's made

[01:20:16] [SPEAKER_01]: is um you like

[01:20:18] [SPEAKER_01]: say it backwards and then play it forward

[01:20:21] [SPEAKER_01]: so it's almost like the real life version

[01:20:23] [SPEAKER_01]: of the red room

[01:20:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and then the parallel to that

[01:20:27] [SPEAKER_01]: would be the red room but I don't know

[01:20:28] [SPEAKER_01]: totally know how to interpret that I just noticed

[01:20:31] [SPEAKER_01]: that as another parallel

[01:20:33] [SPEAKER_01]: um which

[01:20:35] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of makes me believe

[01:20:37] [SPEAKER_01]: that

[01:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: both Audrey

[01:20:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and Cooper

[01:20:43] [SPEAKER_01]: are stuck

[01:20:45] [SPEAKER_01]: in this in these cycles

[01:20:47] [SPEAKER_01]: of having something they can't let go

[01:20:49] [SPEAKER_01]: of and

[01:20:51] [SPEAKER_01]: like

[01:20:53] [SPEAKER_01]: like projecting a reality

[01:20:55] [SPEAKER_01]: so that they can relive it over

[01:20:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and over and over again

[01:21:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and with Audrey I think we saw

[01:21:03] [SPEAKER_01]: the last cycle and then her waking up

[01:21:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and Cooper I think

[01:21:07] [SPEAKER_01]: we saw at least three cycles

[01:21:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and then him not waking up

[01:21:11] [SPEAKER_09]: right um

[01:21:13] [SPEAKER_09]: he still has a way to go to wake up

[01:21:15] [SPEAKER_09]: but the Audrey

[01:21:17] [SPEAKER_09]: story is an example of what happens

[01:21:20] [SPEAKER_09]: maybe

[01:21:21] [SPEAKER_01]: if you do wake up and then the Nadine

[01:21:24] [SPEAKER_01]: story

[01:21:25] [SPEAKER_01]: is like a success story of that

[01:21:27] [SPEAKER_01]: it's like um

[01:21:29] [SPEAKER_01]: the Nadine of

[01:21:31] [SPEAKER_01]: shoveling yourself out of the shit

[01:21:33] [SPEAKER_01]: right and um

[01:21:35] [SPEAKER_01]: that's what Audrey and Cooper need to do

[01:21:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and so it's almost like Nadine

[01:21:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and then Audrey in the middle and then

[01:21:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Cooper it's like

[01:21:43] [SPEAKER_09]: Nadine shoveled herself out of the shit

[01:21:45] [SPEAKER_09]: by finally recognizing

[01:21:47] [SPEAKER_09]: that she has been

[01:21:49] [SPEAKER_09]: possessing and um

[01:21:51] [SPEAKER_09]: somebody and

[01:21:53] [SPEAKER_09]: keeping somebody that she loved from being

[01:21:55] [SPEAKER_09]: happy

[01:21:57] [SPEAKER_09]: and

[01:21:59] [SPEAKER_09]: she couldn't admit that to herself because that's a

[01:22:01] [SPEAKER_09]: terrible thing to admit that you're

[01:22:03] [SPEAKER_09]: preventing the person you love from being

[01:22:05] [SPEAKER_09]: happy and then she did

[01:22:07] [SPEAKER_09]: and that was full success

[01:22:09] [SPEAKER_09]: Audrey

[01:22:11] [SPEAKER_09]: so Audrey has she

[01:22:13] [SPEAKER_09]: is she like where is she in the shit

[01:22:16] [SPEAKER_09]: like is she

[01:22:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I think

[01:22:19] [SPEAKER_01]: in reality she's in a mental institution

[01:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: right and um

[01:22:24] [SPEAKER_01]: she

[01:22:25] [SPEAKER_01]: has the things that she can't let go of

[01:22:27] [SPEAKER_01]: that she needs to shovel herself out of

[01:22:29] [SPEAKER_01]: is just the need to escape

[01:22:31] [SPEAKER_01]: from she's always had

[01:22:33] [SPEAKER_01]: like she's always wanted to leave Twin Peaks

[01:22:35] [SPEAKER_01]: in this last

[01:22:37] [SPEAKER_01]: cycle it was leaving the house and I think it's just

[01:22:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to leave the mental institution

[01:22:41] [SPEAKER_01]: that's part of it like she just wants to escape

[01:22:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and so

[01:22:45] [SPEAKER_01]: she's on the pathway to escaping

[01:22:47] [SPEAKER_01]: she's escaped her illusion

[01:22:49] [SPEAKER_01]: um and we just

[01:22:51] [SPEAKER_01]: haven't seen yet her

[01:22:53] [SPEAKER_09]: she has to find a way to be happy

[01:22:55] [SPEAKER_09]: right with a kind of

[01:22:57] [SPEAKER_09]: domestic life that she might have

[01:22:59] [SPEAKER_09]: with some real life husband

[01:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: which I think

[01:23:03] [SPEAKER_01]: so one of the cycles

[01:23:05] [SPEAKER_01]: for sure is the Dougie cycle

[01:23:07] [SPEAKER_01]: where he's

[01:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: stuck in this

[01:23:11] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of clue I mean totally clueless

[01:23:13] [SPEAKER_01]: he doesn't know where he is but he has a wife and he has a kid

[01:23:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and then he wakes up his Cooper

[01:23:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and then destroys Bob

[01:23:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and bad Cooper and I think

[01:23:21] [SPEAKER_01]: that's part of his like

[01:23:23] [SPEAKER_01]: subconscious saying this is what you want

[01:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: because Dougie we we

[01:23:27] [SPEAKER_01]: hate at first and then we fall in love we think he's so great

[01:23:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's it's almost like the original

[01:23:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Twin Peaks like all the characters are

[01:23:33] [SPEAKER_01]: lovable everyone's like

[01:23:34] [SPEAKER_01]: such a good guy or everyone's such

[01:23:37] [SPEAKER_01]: a good person and um

[01:23:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's just like everything works out

[01:23:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and Cooper acknowledges

[01:23:43] [SPEAKER_01]: that by sending another Dougie

[01:23:45] [SPEAKER_01]: home he wants them to have a happy ending

[01:23:47] [SPEAKER_01]: but he can't he can't

[01:23:49] [SPEAKER_01]: yet just do that for himself

[01:23:51] [SPEAKER_09]: so is the is the idea

[01:23:53] [SPEAKER_09]: that everybody has this kind of fractured

[01:23:56] [SPEAKER_09]: subconscious

[01:23:58] [SPEAKER_09]: part of which

[01:23:59] [SPEAKER_09]: is trying to keep them trapped

[01:24:00] [SPEAKER_09]: and part of which is trying to

[01:24:03] [SPEAKER_01]: escape yes and for Audrey

[01:24:05] [SPEAKER_01]: because when you see her

[01:24:07] [SPEAKER_01]: she would always see

[01:24:09] [SPEAKER_01]: she's almost fighting with herself like she always has a different

[01:24:11] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of

[01:24:12] [SPEAKER_01]: the part of her that wants to stay at the house

[01:24:15] [SPEAKER_01]: is the part that wants to stay in the illusion

[01:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and the part of her that wants to leave the house

[01:24:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and go to the road house

[01:24:21] [SPEAKER_01]: is the part of her that wants to wake up from the illusion

[01:24:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and she's constantly fighting

[01:24:25] [SPEAKER_09]: so that's complicated though

[01:24:27] [SPEAKER_09]: because going to the road

[01:24:29] [SPEAKER_09]: house in some ways

[01:24:31] [SPEAKER_09]: is going oh so is the dance

[01:24:33] [SPEAKER_09]: so she got to the road house

[01:24:35] [SPEAKER_09]: is the dance then

[01:24:37] [SPEAKER_09]: like a last gasp of tempt

[01:24:38] [SPEAKER_09]: to pull her back into the illusion

[01:24:41] [SPEAKER_01]: we thought it might have been a good thing when we saw it

[01:24:43] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's not it's the last

[01:24:45] [SPEAKER_01]: attempt like no stay

[01:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and then

[01:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: she takes that she goes back

[01:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: to the

[01:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and she falls into the past

[01:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and then the last

[01:24:57] [SPEAKER_01]: attempt from the other side

[01:24:59] [SPEAKER_01]: is the fight and that throws her out of it

[01:25:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and that wakes her up

[01:25:02] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah

[01:25:03] [SPEAKER_09]: right

[01:25:07] [SPEAKER_09]: so for Audrey

[01:25:08] [SPEAKER_09]: then what she's going for

[01:25:11] [SPEAKER_09]: so Nadine when she's

[01:25:12] [SPEAKER_09]: fully out of the shit like you said

[01:25:14] [SPEAKER_09]: like she even says I think

[01:25:16] [SPEAKER_09]: at one point like I'm so happy

[01:25:18] [SPEAKER_09]: like she has found happiness

[01:25:20] [SPEAKER_09]: by liberating it

[01:25:22] [SPEAKER_09]: what's happiness for Audrey

[01:25:24] [SPEAKER_09]: is it going to be

[01:25:26] [SPEAKER_09]: to be satisfied with her husband

[01:25:28] [SPEAKER_09]: do we really think her husband is that guy

[01:25:30] [SPEAKER_09]: it doesn't seem like

[01:25:31] [SPEAKER_09]: a happy Audrey even if she

[01:25:34] [SPEAKER_09]: accepts

[01:25:35] [SPEAKER_09]: that she can't escape

[01:25:38] [SPEAKER_09]: you know the town or there she like

[01:25:40] [SPEAKER_09]: is that going to ever

[01:25:42] [SPEAKER_09]: or maybe it is maybe that's

[01:25:44] [SPEAKER_09]: the best that life has to offer

[01:25:46] [SPEAKER_09]: for Audrey

[01:25:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know

[01:25:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what having is because

[01:25:51] [SPEAKER_01]: it's always been her thing is to

[01:25:54] [SPEAKER_01]: she's always wanted to leave

[01:25:56] [SPEAKER_01]: she's always been like

[01:25:58] [SPEAKER_01]: wanting something that she can't have

[01:25:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and so I don't know what happiness is

[01:26:02] [SPEAKER_01]: for her it could be just leaving

[01:26:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Twin Peaks that's possible

[01:26:07] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's also I think

[01:26:09] [SPEAKER_01]: she doesn't know I don't think she knows

[01:26:12] [SPEAKER_01]: either she just has to take it one step of the time

[01:26:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and break free of this illusion because that

[01:26:16] [SPEAKER_01]: is staying in the shit

[01:26:17] [SPEAKER_01]: it's not shoveling yourself out of it

[01:26:20] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah

[01:26:21] [SPEAKER_09]: and one thing just to another

[01:26:23] [SPEAKER_09]: parallel that I thought of

[01:26:25] [SPEAKER_09]: when Cooper and

[01:26:27] [SPEAKER_09]: Audrey both are in that moment

[01:26:29] [SPEAKER_09]: that you described earlier where

[01:26:31] [SPEAKER_09]: they've been shocked and they're

[01:26:33] [SPEAKER_09]: realizing all of a sudden both of them

[01:26:36] [SPEAKER_09]: show their age

[01:26:38] [SPEAKER_09]: like

[01:26:38] [SPEAKER_09]: you know Laura

[01:26:41] [SPEAKER_09]: sorry Audrey has just been dancing

[01:26:43] [SPEAKER_09]: in that way that she kind of

[01:26:45] [SPEAKER_09]: danced and she was getting into it

[01:26:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and she looks like her old self

[01:26:48] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah and then

[01:26:51] [SPEAKER_09]: and then Cooper was like

[01:26:52] [SPEAKER_09]: are you Sarah Palmer

[01:26:54] [SPEAKER_09]: and then like you know he was kind of

[01:26:55] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah are you no no no to the

[01:26:57] [SPEAKER_09]: to the woman at the house to

[01:26:59] [SPEAKER_09]: the woman and

[01:27:02] [SPEAKER_09]: then both of them are just

[01:27:04] [SPEAKER_09]: shocked back not just into

[01:27:06] [SPEAKER_09]: reality but also into

[01:27:07] [SPEAKER_09]: how old they actually are

[01:27:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's like

[01:27:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I've always noticed

[01:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: or I've always thought of

[01:27:15] [SPEAKER_01]: like TV show

[01:27:17] [SPEAKER_01]: like TV

[01:27:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and like us watching

[01:27:21] [SPEAKER_01]: metaphors and that's definitely

[01:27:23] [SPEAKER_01]: one of them is David Lynch is like

[01:27:25] [SPEAKER_01]: they're old they're not these old characters

[01:27:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's something that is

[01:27:29] [SPEAKER_01]: definitely clear in that part

[01:27:31] [SPEAKER_09]: and it's us so then it's also a criticism

[01:27:33] [SPEAKER_09]: of us we want them to be back

[01:27:35] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of criticisms of us yeah

[01:27:37] [SPEAKER_09]: it's like part it's partly our fault

[01:27:39] [SPEAKER_09]: that they're trapped in these cycles

[01:27:41] [SPEAKER_01]: totally like we're

[01:27:43] [SPEAKER_01]: we're forcing them to be these characters

[01:27:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and Cooper's so into being this character

[01:27:47] [SPEAKER_01]: that he can't he can't do it

[01:27:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and Audrey's closer

[01:27:51] [SPEAKER_09]: okay and think how happy we were

[01:27:54] [SPEAKER_09]: when Cooper's a hundred percent

[01:27:56] [SPEAKER_09]: I am the FBI

[01:27:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's so great the music

[01:27:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and like yeah we're

[01:28:01] [SPEAKER_09]: complicit in keeping him

[01:28:03] [SPEAKER_09]: trapped in that cycle

[01:28:05] [SPEAKER_01]: but um

[01:28:07] [SPEAKER_01]: what he needs to do

[01:28:09] [SPEAKER_01]: okay I'm gonna explain

[01:28:11] [SPEAKER_01]: the situation that I think he's in

[01:28:13] [SPEAKER_01]: um

[01:28:15] [SPEAKER_01]: he did something bad

[01:28:17] [SPEAKER_01]: um

[01:28:19] [SPEAKER_01]: 25 years ago

[01:28:20] [SPEAKER_01]: like raping Diane I think

[01:28:23] [SPEAKER_01]: he actually did rape Diane

[01:28:25] [SPEAKER_01]: combined with

[01:28:27] [SPEAKER_01]: he couldn't save

[01:28:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Laura or

[01:28:31] [SPEAKER_01]: his um

[01:28:33] [SPEAKER_01]: his partner's wife or Annie

[01:28:35] [SPEAKER_01]: depending Caroline right yeah Caroline

[01:28:37] [SPEAKER_01]: or Annie depending how real you think

[01:28:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Annie is um

[01:28:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and he also

[01:28:43] [SPEAKER_01]: he could have saved Laura

[01:28:44] [SPEAKER_01]: because he knew about Theresa Banks

[01:28:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and he had a suspicion that

[01:28:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Bob was gonna strike again

[01:28:50] [SPEAKER_01]: but he couldn't save her

[01:28:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and the reason I think

[01:28:54] [SPEAKER_01]: that Laura is in the middle of this whole

[01:28:56] [SPEAKER_01]: show is because she's combined

[01:28:58] [SPEAKER_01]: with she was raped

[01:29:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and he's she's someone that he couldn't

[01:29:02] [SPEAKER_01]: save so she's like

[01:29:04] [SPEAKER_01]: all of his problems in one person

[01:29:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[01:29:08] [SPEAKER_01]: so he can't he can't deal with

[01:29:10] [SPEAKER_01]: the all of those things

[01:29:12] [SPEAKER_01]: combined together and he's driven

[01:29:14] [SPEAKER_01]: himself crazy trying to

[01:29:16] [SPEAKER_01]: save her again and

[01:29:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and he's convinced himself

[01:29:19] [SPEAKER_01]: that he's only all good Cooper

[01:29:22] [SPEAKER_01]: or all bad Cooper he can't

[01:29:24] [SPEAKER_01]: he can't be

[01:29:24] [SPEAKER_01]: he can't be both of them right because he can't

[01:29:28] [SPEAKER_09]: make sense of the fact that

[01:29:30] [SPEAKER_09]: that he did something

[01:29:32] [SPEAKER_01]: that was so bad thought he was a good person

[01:29:34] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah right and um

[01:29:35] [SPEAKER_01]: that's why the black lodge is like

[01:29:37] [SPEAKER_01]: you can't you can't have

[01:29:39] [SPEAKER_01]: you can't have both of you out at the same time

[01:29:41] [SPEAKER_01]: like that's why they said he was stuck

[01:29:43] [SPEAKER_01]: in 25 there for 25

[01:29:45] [SPEAKER_01]: years and I think so that's

[01:29:47] [SPEAKER_09]: his projection of a black lodge

[01:29:50] [SPEAKER_09]: rule is that

[01:29:52] [SPEAKER_09]: only one of them can be out at the

[01:29:53] [SPEAKER_09]: same time when in fact it's the truth

[01:29:55] [SPEAKER_09]: is the opposite like both always

[01:29:58] [SPEAKER_09]: have to be out if you're a unified

[01:29:59] [SPEAKER_01]: person and really once he's

[01:30:01] [SPEAKER_01]: out at the same time as bad Cooper

[01:30:03] [SPEAKER_01]: like nothing happens it's not like

[01:30:05] [SPEAKER_01]: um

[01:30:07] [SPEAKER_01]: there's glitches or anything like they're just both

[01:30:09] [SPEAKER_01]: out at the same time and

[01:30:11] [SPEAKER_09]: right and so that's clearly

[01:30:13] [SPEAKER_09]: just his rule that he's made up

[01:30:15] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah that he can't deal he can't

[01:30:17] [SPEAKER_01]: live like he can't figure it out

[01:30:19] [SPEAKER_01]: that's what he needs to figure out is they have

[01:30:21] [SPEAKER_01]: you have to have both of them and what I think

[01:30:23] [SPEAKER_01]: the bad Cooper is

[01:30:25] [SPEAKER_01]: is his bad side

[01:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: like desperately trying

[01:30:29] [SPEAKER_01]: to like say like I exist

[01:30:31] [SPEAKER_01]: like I am here and he doesn't want

[01:30:33] [SPEAKER_01]: to go back into the black lodge he doesn't want to be

[01:30:35] [SPEAKER_01]: forced out and he tries

[01:30:37] [SPEAKER_01]: all these different ways like one of them

[01:30:39] [SPEAKER_01]: is you have a son because you raved

[01:30:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Audrey like you have

[01:30:43] [SPEAKER_01]: you have a son you can't just forget about

[01:30:45] [SPEAKER_01]: that right and

[01:30:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and then so Cooper's

[01:30:49] [SPEAKER_01]: imagination just kills Richard

[01:30:51] [SPEAKER_01]: like um

[01:30:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and then he goes and

[01:30:55] [SPEAKER_01]: then in episode 17 we're like this is so great

[01:30:57] [SPEAKER_01]: he's good Cooper he's gonna kill bad Cooper and he does

[01:30:59] [SPEAKER_01]: kill bad Cooper and we

[01:31:01] [SPEAKER_01]: thought that might have been a good sign but I think

[01:31:03] [SPEAKER_01]: it's really not it's really

[01:31:05] [SPEAKER_01]: bad actually right

[01:31:07] [SPEAKER_09]: so that like when he you will know

[01:31:09] [SPEAKER_09]: that he breaks out when he doesn't

[01:31:12] [SPEAKER_09]: put bad Cooper back in the

[01:31:13] [SPEAKER_09]: lodge or when they unit when

[01:31:15] [SPEAKER_09]: they doesn't destroy bad Cooper he

[01:31:17] [SPEAKER_09]: doesn't burn up he actually

[01:31:19] [SPEAKER_09]: like stays and

[01:31:21] [SPEAKER_09]: they can unify somehow

[01:31:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and and then

[01:31:26] [SPEAKER_01]: so so the

[01:31:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Dougie to bad to

[01:31:29] [SPEAKER_01]: destroying bad Cooper I think is one cycle

[01:31:32] [SPEAKER_01]: that he goes through

[01:31:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and then that ends and

[01:31:35] [SPEAKER_01]: he still hasn't saved Laura he's destroyed Bob

[01:31:37] [SPEAKER_01]: but he still isn't saved Laura so

[01:31:40] [SPEAKER_01]: he starts a new cycle

[01:31:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and that cycle is

[01:31:44] [SPEAKER_01]: um

[01:31:45] [SPEAKER_01]: going to Philip Jeffries and

[01:31:47] [SPEAKER_01]: um and taking him back

[01:31:49] [SPEAKER_01]: in time to try and save Laura that way

[01:31:52] [SPEAKER_01]: but that doesn't work

[01:31:54] [SPEAKER_01]: um she disappears she does

[01:31:56] [SPEAKER_01]: the same scream that she does in the

[01:31:58] [SPEAKER_01]: black lodge when she's being like forced

[01:31:59] [SPEAKER_01]: away and I think that scream is like

[01:32:02] [SPEAKER_01]: leave me in peace like you're

[01:32:03] [SPEAKER_01]: you're forcing like when she's

[01:32:05] [SPEAKER_01]: when she like goes up in the air that's because

[01:32:08] [SPEAKER_01]: she can't like she he's

[01:32:09] [SPEAKER_01]: making her like

[01:32:12] [SPEAKER_01]: um how like

[01:32:13] [SPEAKER_01]: stuck and she can't just be at peace

[01:32:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and be dead like

[01:32:17] [SPEAKER_09]: he can't he's drawing her

[01:32:19] [SPEAKER_09]: into his illusion

[01:32:22] [SPEAKER_09]: right his his delusion

[01:32:23] [SPEAKER_09]: that he has to be the one that saves people

[01:32:26] [SPEAKER_09]: and he has to be right in the same

[01:32:27] [SPEAKER_09]: way that we might be doing that to Cooper

[01:32:29] [SPEAKER_01]: right and and then

[01:32:31] [SPEAKER_01]: when he says

[01:32:33] [SPEAKER_01]: when Laura in that cycle says

[01:32:35] [SPEAKER_01]: where are we going and he says we're going home

[01:32:37] [SPEAKER_01]: like why would you want to take her

[01:32:39] [SPEAKER_01]: home that's the worst place for her

[01:32:41] [SPEAKER_01]: to go like that is

[01:32:43] [SPEAKER_01]: where all her torment and

[01:32:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and but he refuses to go home himself

[01:32:48] [SPEAKER_01]: himself and really

[01:32:49] [SPEAKER_01]: he hasn't switched like he

[01:32:51] [SPEAKER_01]: should go home and Laura should not

[01:32:53] [SPEAKER_01]: like Laura should be gone

[01:32:55] [SPEAKER_01]: from that home she should just

[01:32:57] [SPEAKER_01]: be dead and

[01:32:59] [SPEAKER_01]: so then when he takes

[01:33:01] [SPEAKER_01]: her home or when he when he tries taking

[01:33:03] [SPEAKER_01]: her home she does the scream but

[01:33:05] [SPEAKER_01]: you can't just leave me be

[01:33:07] [SPEAKER_01]: scream and then disappears and then disappears yeah

[01:33:10] [SPEAKER_01]: so that didn't work

[01:33:11] [SPEAKER_01]: got to try a new cycle

[01:33:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and so that cycle

[01:33:15] [SPEAKER_01]: is um

[01:33:17] [SPEAKER_01]: when he wakes up as Richard

[01:33:19] [SPEAKER_01]: um

[01:33:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[01:33:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't I and and it seems

[01:33:25] [SPEAKER_01]: like he really is a combination

[01:33:27] [SPEAKER_01]: of all three

[01:33:28] [SPEAKER_01]: the Dougie the good Cooper and the bad Cooper

[01:33:31] [SPEAKER_01]: because he's

[01:33:33] [SPEAKER_01]: he's like

[01:33:35] [SPEAKER_01]: he he just at that point when he's Richard

[01:33:37] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah he he just doesn't seem

[01:33:39] [SPEAKER_01]: like good Cooper anybody

[01:33:41] [SPEAKER_01]: he says that unified

[01:33:43] [SPEAKER_09]: in a way but not in a way

[01:33:45] [SPEAKER_09]: that is necessarily seems good right

[01:33:47] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah and

[01:33:49] [SPEAKER_01]: but the thing is it

[01:33:51] [SPEAKER_01]: does take place in reality like

[01:33:53] [SPEAKER_01]: not I'm not saying it's real

[01:33:55] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's taking the setting is

[01:33:57] [SPEAKER_01]: actual reality

[01:33:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and we know because Odessa is a real town

[01:34:01] [SPEAKER_09]: that census

[01:34:03] [SPEAKER_09]: and the Valero and yeah

[01:34:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and the I think that

[01:34:06] [SPEAKER_01]: restaurant probably exists um

[01:34:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and then

[01:34:11] [SPEAKER_01]: he goes to

[01:34:13] [SPEAKER_01]: to carry Paige's house

[01:34:15] [SPEAKER_01]: who is Laura Palmer

[01:34:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and he calls her Laura Palmer

[01:34:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and she's like I don't know who that is

[01:34:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's almost like

[01:34:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean she's obviously in a bad situation

[01:34:25] [SPEAKER_01]: she like

[01:34:27] [SPEAKER_01]: she killed somebody

[01:34:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and he actually looks like

[01:34:31] [SPEAKER_01]: like Bob killed like

[01:34:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Bob was removed from him like his

[01:34:34] [SPEAKER_01]: chest I don't know how to

[01:34:36] [SPEAKER_01]: interpret that exactly but that's what he looks like

[01:34:38] [SPEAKER_09]: well I have a way that you're definitely

[01:34:40] [SPEAKER_09]: not gonna like but yeah

[01:34:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I yeah um

[01:34:44] [SPEAKER_01]: so then

[01:34:46] [SPEAKER_01]: he uh he says

[01:34:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to take you home

[01:34:49] [SPEAKER_01]: basically he says I want to take you home

[01:34:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and um

[01:34:54] [SPEAKER_01]: he does and

[01:34:55] [SPEAKER_01]: you go to the Valero which is

[01:34:58] [SPEAKER_01]: an actual gas station

[01:34:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and then he takes her to the house

[01:35:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and then like

[01:35:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I then then all those that stuff happens

[01:35:06] [SPEAKER_01]: um that I talked about which is

[01:35:08] [SPEAKER_01]: parallel to um

[01:35:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Audrey

[01:35:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[01:35:13] [SPEAKER_01]: when it cuts to the red room

[01:35:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that just

[01:35:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't like to admit it

[01:35:19] [SPEAKER_01]: cause I like it's so frustrating

[01:35:21] [SPEAKER_01]: because it's obviously

[01:35:23] [SPEAKER_01]: way closer to reality

[01:35:25] [SPEAKER_01]: it's one of the last I think it's the last

[01:35:27] [SPEAKER_01]: step that we saw because it's

[01:35:29] [SPEAKER_01]: the shortest in the time period

[01:35:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's um it's

[01:35:33] [SPEAKER_01]: takes place in reality

[01:35:35] [SPEAKER_09]: and he's the closest to unified

[01:35:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and um

[01:35:41] [SPEAKER_09]: so you might think

[01:35:43] [SPEAKER_09]: if there were another season

[01:35:44] [SPEAKER_09]: and I'm not saying there even should be

[01:35:46] [SPEAKER_09]: but I'm saying

[01:35:49] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah then

[01:35:51] [SPEAKER_09]: that

[01:35:52] [SPEAKER_09]: the next cycle might be

[01:35:54] [SPEAKER_09]: him getting to the point

[01:35:56] [SPEAKER_09]: maybe where Audrey is right

[01:35:58] [SPEAKER_01]: but we see Audrey maybe as an

[01:36:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Nadine

[01:36:01] [SPEAKER_09]: and then Audrey is up

[01:36:03] [SPEAKER_09]: and now she's in the real world

[01:36:05] [SPEAKER_09]: whatever that is for her

[01:36:07] [SPEAKER_09]: and Cooper now

[01:36:09] [SPEAKER_09]: needs to do this

[01:36:10] [SPEAKER_09]: the sort of second to last

[01:36:14] [SPEAKER_09]: cycle

[01:36:15] [SPEAKER_09]: to get himself into

[01:36:17] [SPEAKER_09]: into reality

[01:36:19] [SPEAKER_09]: or truth and

[01:36:20] [SPEAKER_09]: and this is very Buddhist in the sense

[01:36:23] [SPEAKER_09]: that you

[01:36:25] [SPEAKER_09]: they have this idea that you keep reliving

[01:36:27] [SPEAKER_09]: this life

[01:36:29] [SPEAKER_09]: over and over again until you can finally

[01:36:31] [SPEAKER_09]: see the truth

[01:36:32] [SPEAKER_09]: you finally get enlightened

[01:36:34] [SPEAKER_09]: um but I think

[01:36:36] [SPEAKER_09]: here the idea is

[01:36:39] [SPEAKER_09]: that enlightenment isn't

[01:36:40] [SPEAKER_09]: necessarily just being

[01:36:42] [SPEAKER_09]: blissfully happy

[01:36:44] [SPEAKER_09]: it's a full kind of

[01:36:46] [SPEAKER_09]: acceptance I mean I think Nadine

[01:36:48] [SPEAKER_09]: is it's like that acceptance

[01:36:50] [SPEAKER_09]: of everything you've done

[01:36:52] [SPEAKER_01]: that her husband doesn't love

[01:36:55] [SPEAKER_01]: her but she's had it's

[01:36:56] [SPEAKER_01]: relief like I think it's just relief

[01:36:58] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah it's an acceptance

[01:37:00] [SPEAKER_09]: of he doesn't love me

[01:37:03] [SPEAKER_09]: like and I've

[01:37:04] [SPEAKER_09]: screwed him over

[01:37:06] [SPEAKER_09]: and I'm just accepting

[01:37:09] [SPEAKER_09]: that so that I can liberate him

[01:37:11] [SPEAKER_09]: and liberate myself

[01:37:12] [SPEAKER_09]: from this and like

[01:37:14] [SPEAKER_01]: it sucks that we didn't get to see Cooper

[01:37:16] [SPEAKER_01]: like that but he

[01:37:18] [SPEAKER_01]: he like us

[01:37:20] [SPEAKER_01]: like I think can't let go

[01:37:22] [SPEAKER_01]: of Cooper the F like Dale Cooper

[01:37:24] [SPEAKER_01]: the FBI agent like

[01:37:26] [SPEAKER_01]: um he loves that character

[01:37:29] [SPEAKER_09]: and bad Cooper he can't

[01:37:30] [SPEAKER_09]: accept that that's part of him

[01:37:32] [SPEAKER_09]: that that is part of who he is

[01:37:34] [SPEAKER_09]: in the same way that Audrey can't accept

[01:37:37] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah actually she's not

[01:37:38] [SPEAKER_09]: a Hollywood movie star like she might have been

[01:37:41] [SPEAKER_09]: if she had been

[01:37:42] [SPEAKER_09]: in the Mulholland Drive story

[01:37:45] [SPEAKER_09]: and no she's probably just going to live

[01:37:47] [SPEAKER_09]: in Twin Peaks as a married

[01:37:48] [SPEAKER_09]: 50 something year old and that's not great

[01:37:51] [SPEAKER_01]: like that's just not a great thing

[01:37:52] [SPEAKER_01]: but she at least has to accept it

[01:37:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and Cooper he has

[01:37:57] [SPEAKER_01]: to live with the really bad stuff that he did

[01:37:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's not fun

[01:38:00] [SPEAKER_01]: that's probably not a fun thing to do

[01:38:02] [SPEAKER_01]: but he has to do it

[01:38:03] [SPEAKER_09]: right he has to face up to the fact that he may have sexually assaulted

[01:38:07] [SPEAKER_09]: somebody that he cares about

[01:38:08] [SPEAKER_09]: deeply and that he really didn't

[01:38:11] [SPEAKER_09]: save the people that he

[01:38:13] [SPEAKER_09]: uh that he tried

[01:38:15] [SPEAKER_09]: to save yeah so no wonder

[01:38:16] [SPEAKER_09]: he's trying to like spin

[01:38:18] [SPEAKER_09]: these kind of illusions he's like he's kind

[01:38:20] [SPEAKER_01]: of a sucky FBI agent if he didn't

[01:38:23] [SPEAKER_01]: like he doesn't want to be that

[01:38:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and um

[01:38:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and then we as an audience

[01:38:28] [SPEAKER_01]: have to

[01:38:30] [SPEAKER_01]: like not

[01:38:32] [SPEAKER_01]: picture not

[01:38:33] [SPEAKER_01]: hold on to Twin Peaks and that's not great

[01:38:36] [SPEAKER_01]: like we like Twin Peaks but we have to

[01:38:39] [SPEAKER_01]: we have to

[01:38:40] [SPEAKER_01]: accept that they're older

[01:38:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's not it's not them and that's

[01:38:44] [SPEAKER_01]: what that's what David Lynch is

[01:38:46] [SPEAKER_01]: criticizing us for doing is like you're making

[01:38:48] [SPEAKER_01]: these characters do this

[01:38:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's

[01:38:53] [SPEAKER_09]: that's pretty good and it's very

[01:38:54] [SPEAKER_09]: we just watched Lost Highway

[01:38:56] [SPEAKER_09]: last night it's a

[01:38:58] [SPEAKER_09]: similar kind of

[01:38:59] [SPEAKER_09]: idea where the main character

[01:39:02] [SPEAKER_09]: in Lost Highway if you haven't seen it

[01:39:04] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't even know if it's a spoiler at this point

[01:39:06] [SPEAKER_09]: because David Lynch is so much

[01:39:08] [SPEAKER_09]: about this idea but

[01:39:10] [SPEAKER_09]: certainly one way of interpreting

[01:39:12] [SPEAKER_09]: that is a man who's done

[01:39:14] [SPEAKER_09]: something terrible and who

[01:39:15] [SPEAKER_09]: and can't accept

[01:39:18] [SPEAKER_09]: a certain part of

[01:39:20] [SPEAKER_09]: himself just spoiler alert if you haven't seen it

[01:39:22] [SPEAKER_09]: but in this case it's that he

[01:39:23] [SPEAKER_09]: can't possess his wife

[01:39:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and he killed her and he killed her

[01:39:28] [SPEAKER_09]: and she was cheating on him

[01:39:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and someone well he killed her

[01:39:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and then someone that he she was possibly

[01:39:33] [SPEAKER_09]: cheating on him and so

[01:39:36] [SPEAKER_09]: he keeps spinning

[01:39:38] [SPEAKER_09]: realities and justifying

[01:39:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and like yeah

[01:39:42] [SPEAKER_09]: um

[01:39:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and so it's very similar and it's

[01:39:46] [SPEAKER_09]: um and Mulholland Drive

[01:39:47] [SPEAKER_01]: similar to Mulholland Drive

[01:39:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and uh it's similar to a lot of

[01:39:52] [SPEAKER_09]: things inland empire if we

[01:39:54] [SPEAKER_01]: understood it probably yeah

[01:39:57] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe blue velvet

[01:39:59] [SPEAKER_09]: well

[01:40:00] [SPEAKER_09]: that one is a little harder to fit

[01:40:02] [SPEAKER_09]: into this pattern but yeah

[01:40:04] [SPEAKER_09]: all right should we wrap up

[01:40:06] [SPEAKER_09]: do we have anything else to say

[01:40:07] [SPEAKER_01]: that's good I mean yeah I don't think I should talk about James

[01:40:11] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah

[01:40:12] [SPEAKER_09]: forget James James is still cool

[01:40:14] [SPEAKER_09]: or James was never cool no

[01:40:16] [SPEAKER_09]: David Lynch said he was cool

[01:40:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and he thinks he wishes he was cool

[01:40:20] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah so

[01:40:22] [SPEAKER_09]: James could be part of this cycle too

[01:40:25] [SPEAKER_09]: right

[01:40:26] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah no I think it's

[01:40:27] [SPEAKER_01]: definitely possible because

[01:40:30] [SPEAKER_01]: why would he be a

[01:40:32] [SPEAKER_01]: big part of the show but

[01:40:33] [SPEAKER_01]: cause he doesn't have a relationship with either of them

[01:40:36] [SPEAKER_01]: but and it's not

[01:40:38] [SPEAKER_01]: as important I think to the

[01:40:40] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah

[01:40:41] [SPEAKER_09]: all right well

[01:40:43] [SPEAKER_09]: thank you Eliza

[01:40:45] [SPEAKER_09]: I feel better about it

[01:40:46] [SPEAKER_01]: me too I feel like I have a grasp on it

[01:40:49] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah but it always slips away

[01:40:51] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah cause we're gonna probably

[01:40:53] [SPEAKER_01]: talk about it later and then

[01:40:54] [SPEAKER_01]: have no idea now

[01:40:57] [SPEAKER_09]: it's like Laura is like

[01:40:58] [SPEAKER_09]: we're leading out

[01:41:01] [SPEAKER_01]: we're in a cycle of trying to

[01:41:03] [SPEAKER_01]: figure out ten weeks and we just

[01:41:05] [SPEAKER_01]: need to accept that it's

[01:41:07] [SPEAKER_01]: not explainable

[01:41:08] [SPEAKER_09]: that's exactly right

[01:41:10] [SPEAKER_09]: we are definitely in a cycle

[01:41:11] [SPEAKER_09]: like we walk the dogs

[01:41:14] [SPEAKER_09]: in a circle

[01:41:16] [SPEAKER_09]: talking about this stuff

[01:41:17] [SPEAKER_09]: and we make progress maybe

[01:41:19] [SPEAKER_09]: or yeah but we keep coming back

[01:41:22] [SPEAKER_01]: we take place closer to

[01:41:23] [SPEAKER_09]: keep slipping out of our grasp at the end

[01:41:26] [SPEAKER_09]: we're not even an Audrey

[01:41:27] [SPEAKER_09]: stage yet I don't think

[01:41:29] [SPEAKER_09]: all right thank you

[01:41:31] [SPEAKER_09]: and

[01:41:34] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm sure there'll be more

[01:41:36] [SPEAKER_09]: Twin Peaks talk on this podcast soon

[01:41:39] [SPEAKER_09]: thanks Lai