Episode 148: Am I Wrong?

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Very Bad Wizards is a podcast with a philosopher, my dad, and psychologist Dave Pizarro having

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_02]: an informal discussion about issues and science and ethics.

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Please note that the discussion contains bad words that I'm not allowed to say, and

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_02]: knowing my dad some very inappropriate jokes.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_00]: The hell's wrong with you people?

[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I am not a monster!

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a person with thoughts and feelings!

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_00]: For God's sake, I'm a grad student!

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_07]: Attention to that bad wizard!

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Brains in U.S.

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Anybody can have a brain?

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Very good man.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Just a very bad wizard.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_09]: Welcome to Very Bad Wizards, I'm Tamler Sommers from the University of Houston.

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_09]: Dave, after a recent tweet of mine you texted me to say that I've officially joined the

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_09]: Intellectual Dark Web.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_09]: They haven't told me when my induction ceremony is yet, but when they do, do you want to come as my plus one?

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I'll take the dark pictures.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_01]: How about that?

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh nice!

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_09]: So the tweet and question...

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_09]: What?

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_01]: When I saw it dude, when I saw it I was like, oh god, you doing that?

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Why?

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Like why?

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_09]: Why?

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_09]: I know.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm gonna tell, I'm gonna say why, but let me just say what it is first.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_09]: Because I'm on record in this, on this podcast of saying that this is exactly the kind

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_09]: of thing I shouldn't do.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_09]: I think it wasn't that long ago, it was like two episodes ago.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_09]: So this is, it was about the Serena Williams match and we're gonna talk about that, right?

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_09]: Like Serena Williams against Naomi Osaka in the US Open final.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_09]: And Serena had trouble with the umpire, had kind of an outburst and it was this big,

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_09]: it was a big controversy that took away in my judgment from just an incredible run at the

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_09]: US Open by Naomi Osaka.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_09]: Anyway, Adam Weinstein, some guy I guess at Buzzfeed tweeted and the reason I know about

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_09]: this is because a listener that I like and that um, and his young philosopher Ryan Lake

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_09]: retweeted it and said he kind of agreed even though he didn't know much about tennis.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_09]: So this is the tweet that I was responding to.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_09]: I see dudes complain that Serena Williams is rude and I wonder if they grew up like me,

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_09]: watching McEnroe and Connors be celebrated for irascible court douchebaggery or nah.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_09]: It was the or nah that got me.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh it was his tone that bothered you.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, just the or nah.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_09]: It's an incredibly insufferable tweet and also just completely factually inaccurate.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_09]: People were all over McEnroe.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_09]: Nobody liked Connors.

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_09]: Nobody liked Connors and certainly nobody liked, no I mean people like Connors.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_09]: He was very popular.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_09]: Oh well, I mean.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_09]: But wait, wait, wait, wait, but nobody celebrated Connors yelling at officials.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_09]: McEnroe, every once in a while you would have people who liked that side of him because

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_09]: it was funny.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_09]: He could be funny about it but that was never true of Connors and there were so many people

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_09]: who criticized John McEnroe who unfairly lambasted him even when he was in the right

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_09]: or when it was reasonable and when you compare that to Serena not only was there not a

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_09]: double standard in the reaction, Serena was getting way, way, way more love than either

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_09]: of those two did after an incident like what happened to Serena.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_09]: So this is my judgment.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_09]: This is what I tweeted.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_09]: This is bullshit.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_09]: Plenty of people complained about McEnroe and nobody celebrated Connors' rants because he

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_09]: was just a dick.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_09]: Mc could at least be funny.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_09]: Serena is getting way more love than either of them for their outbursts which

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_09]: is fine she's Serena but this is just false.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_09]: So I tweet that and then this is what I have to live with in my life.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_09]: If I tweet anything like this my stepmother will retweet it and then my stepmother retweeted

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_09]: it but then Ben Shapiro.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_09]: I take it this is why you think I'm now inducted into the IDW.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_09]: Ben Shapiro retweeted it and I don't know for sure but it's probably my most

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_09]: retweeted and liked.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I put money on it.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_01]: What's it at now?

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_09]: It's like almost 2,000 likes and 334 retweets you know which I didn't want and was

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_09]: like that was never what I was after but I stand by everything I said and I'm not even

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_09]: sure I would do it again like I would just not do it even if I could because I really

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_09]: was bothered by how people reacted to that.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Well so okay so as you know we talked a little bit about this and we decided like at first

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I was like no Tam was not going to want to talk about this on the show but more broadly

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_01]: we didn't even realize how much tennis fans we were.

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_01]: We've never really talked about it so I grew up you know we watched soccer as a kid

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: but tennis was always on right if there was any tournament to this day you know my mom who could

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: give not a fuck about sports is a huge tennis fan and I loved watching it.

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I watched McEnroe and Connor were both old enough somebody accused you of not being old

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: enough which was the funniest exchange.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_09]: I was like yeah well thank you but unfortunately you're wrong I am old enough.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_09]: McEnroe was like the first pro athlete I was like such a huge fan.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah it is funny it's a it's a I texted to you that how predictable it was that you

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_01]: liked McEnroe and I was a fan of Yvonne Lendl had like zero charisma but.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_09]: That's not predictable because I didn't know that there were fans of Yvonne.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So I you know to me reading all of these exchanges and your tweet I can't help but think

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_01]: that people are just talking about very different things and there's this like outrage

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_01]: that's going over it's just missing its target so let me make an attempt at unpacking a little bit.

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So one is whether or not the ref's call and his subsequent calls to penalize a point was unfair.

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's that question right if there is a sense that this is unfair and

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_01]: the thing you should got penalized for was that in tennis you're not allowed to communicate

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_01]: with your coach during a match or even during warm-ups and apparently there was a hand signal

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_01]: that much is true he was trying to send her a hand signal.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_09]: To come into the net.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah whether or not she saw that hand signal it seems as if she probably didn't.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_09]: But the rule states that that's irrelevant he's not allowed to give her hand signals

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_09]: whether or not she sees.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Now I think what was that question was whether or not anybody else

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: right up as far as I understand it this is not an uncommon practice at all

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and to get penalized for it seems like it's not at least it's not par for the course to mix sports.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And now so but I think we can just some context on that it's not like it's never called

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_09]: it's rarely called and I don't it probably shouldn't be called in the final of a yeah

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_01]: it would be like calling a penalty and you know an extra time in a soccer game when it was you

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_01]: when there was like a tiki-tak penalty yeah right right and then there's the question of whether or

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_01]: not her tantrum is justified or not justified but whether we should we should condemn her

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_01]: or whether this is a bad sportsmanship or whatever and I think I'm fine saying that Serena shouldn't

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_01]: throw tantrums just as like I'm fine I actually hated Mackin row when I was growing up I hated

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Jimmy Connors a little bit less Mackin row just seemed to have this fucking delight in doing it

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and here is where I think I disagree with you just about some empirical facts about whether or

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_01]: not people of course of course he was condemned routinely for his tantrums but there were a lot

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_01]: of people who just did like him for his tantrums I mean and I don't think they were that funny

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_01]: like I don't like I think they were just genuine outbursts I think in interviews he was

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_01]: more personable and charming but I think his on-court behavior was as irascible as you know if

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_09]: if not more so lots of male players have outbursts Federer has I don't know if Nadal has but

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_09]: Jokovich has like all of these guys yeah they've had outbursts they've had rants nobody likes them

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_09]: because of those rants they're always regrettable they're always you like them in spite of the

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_09]: rants Mackin row might be the one exception I maintain because he could be clever and he could

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_09]: be funny but even but he was getting tons of shit but here the empirical disagreement is over the

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_09]: difference between them Serena is routinely celebrated my empirical disagreement with you

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_01]: was the claim that like that what matters here is that that Mackin row was was vilified in

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_01]: the press and I think that so he was but he was also glorified in a way that and it's not just

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Mackin row I mean people like Augusti who like they develop a reputation for sort of you know

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_01]: being emotional and and people that's part of who they are so Serena Serena I mean that is

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_09]: definitely true to the extent that it's true of Agassi it's even more true of Serena

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_09]: that she people love how much he care and rightly so and how much passion and competitiveness

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_09]: but for tantrum like but I don't know I don't think Agassi was celebrated for any tantrums

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I think Mackin row was for sure like that like I think if I recall correctly even had sponsorships

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_01]: that were sort of playing up on that bad boy image only I don't think Serena's but right

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_09]: so Mackin row did because that was part of his it's not part of Serena's identity

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_09]: it's not part of any other male's players identity to the extent that it was for Mackin row maybe

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_09]: Ely Nostazi but nobody liked Ely Nostazi either and the people who respond to say that he had a

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_09]: cute cuddly nickname now nasty Nostazi like that's not that's nasty has become like maybe

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_01]: now if you watch porn that's like that's that's by the way Nostazi's nickname is a horrible horrible

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_01]: cultural appropriation of one of the great rappers nasty Nostazi can you culturally appropriate

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_09]: something before like 30 years before that president born I don't know so like maybe so

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe so I just don't see anybody I mean maybe people people really celebrate Serena for

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: for her displays of emotion and maybe that's the case and maybe Mackin row is just the one example

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: you know I don't know of any woman who's been celebrated for that kind of behavior

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm perfectly fine saying that she shouldn't throw tantrums I don't like it and if people

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_01]: celebrated her for those tantrums I think it would be bad I think people celebrate her for

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of times especially like her behavior afterwards when she was being so kind to Osaka

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_01]: like you know okay so can I kind of can we go into the details of what happened because I

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_09]: watched did you watch the the final I didn't watch it live no so I watched it live so just to give

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_09]: context for my reaction and why I am I might seem like I care about this more than I should

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_09]: I watched it live I'm a big Serena fan I always I almost always root for her I wouldn't say I

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_09]: always but I almost always there's no other female tennis player that I that I like more

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_09]: and I'll also say that I think that both her and her sister but maybe Serena especially

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_09]: have been in the past treated unfairly and been victims of racist really bad treatment from

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_09]: the tennis community and that most of the time they rise above it in a way that is

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_09]: beyond admirable admirable right now I had also I've been watching this tournament and this Osaka

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_09]: I started to really like she's like this she's born in Japan but she's lived in the United

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_09]: States for most of her life but she has a very strong Japanese identity very polite very shy

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_09]: but also speaks her mind Serena was her idol she was why her father started started training

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_09]: her at a very young age kind of modeling it so I really liked her I found myself rooting for her

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_09]: during the match because she's a really likable and an incredible talent and unflappable and

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_09]: really she's strong I won't say I knew her before this tournament but I started rooting for her

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_09]: during this tournament and found myself to my surprise rooting for her to beat Serena in

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_09]: the match because this is her idol and Serena is her you know this is this is which is weird

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_01]: because usually usually you root for like the clear dominant ones like you know the patriots and the

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Celtics like you usually favor people who are winning so you can just ride that that way

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_09]: there's nothing to do with the fact that I grew up in Boston no not but moving on

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_09]: so Osaka crushes her in the first set six two and is down a break in the second set but

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_09]: immediately breaks back and somewhere in there either before Serena broke her or when

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_09]: or when Naomi Osaka broke back the first violation happened now this is it's a violation

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_09]: it's a violation that is although Serena has to suffer it it is a violation on the coach for

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_09]: signaling right it's not a violation that says Serena saw it or that they have some special code

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_09]: or anything like that you didn't need it was clear that what he was telling her to do

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_09]: and Serena reacted to that by saying I'm not a cheater I'm a mother I'm not a cheater

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_09]: I would never cheat I would rather I would rather lose than cheat but nobody called her a cheater

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_09]: it was a violation that the coach committed and that is a and that is a genuine violation

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_09]: that probably the umpire shouldn't have called but nobody called her a cheater and she well

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: she wouldn't let it like what yeah I think that that from the perspective of player like she

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_01]: didn't even realize that the coach had signaled that so she's getting this call saying that you

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: the rule is that there's communication and that's what's the rule is it's forbidden

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_01]: that the that the coach is not allowed to it says no communication between the coach and the player

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_01]: right and that's open for interpretation obviously because because is an intended

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_01]: communication does have to be received but that's not even important what what I think

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_01]: is being caught by surprise that you were accused of exchanging signals in a way that you

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_01]: know is violating the rules and getting penalized for it like if anything I thought you you would be

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_01]: in pro of like in favor of her defending her honor being leveled like she didn't know that

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: her coach had actually tried that you would say like yeah like that's basically like she didn't

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_09]: know it but let's assume for the sake of argument that she genuinely surprised but but yeah we

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_09]: don't know we don't know for sure uh the coach seemed to the coach definitely did it he admitted

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_09]: afterwards I think she couldn't she there's no way that she was completely shocked even if she

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_09]: didn't see it that the coach had done it right right because it's a standard thing that coaches do

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_09]: she's been in matches where that's been called before right and so she knows that this is now

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_09]: this gets called this was called twice in the US Open not only twice they're all like a hundred

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_09]: matches and it was only called twice before but it does get called and to say that it is

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_09]: an tantamount to an accusation of cheating is in my view ludicrous it is a violation it is a

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_09]: gamesmanship violation that a lot of people do like taking too long to serve you know taking

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_09]: bouncing the ball too many times I mean that you could say that's cheating you're not allowed

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_01]: to do that but it yeah this I mean this one you don't agree that this one strikes more

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: as cheatery than than taking too long I mean there's a difference between

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_01]: like getting illegally coached and and bouncing the ball too many times and one I think the

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_01]: clear goal is to get an edge up on the competition unless you're really doing something weird with

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_09]: that ball both of them no no no you're you're taking too long either to to psych them out or

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_09]: to give yourself more time to rest before the next point I mean you're always doing these things

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_01]: for an advantage right yeah but you could do a little bit of that stuff psyching out that's not

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I just like it seems to me that on the face of it the communication between coach and player

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_01]: okay so is a clear clear instance of a cheatery attempt so even so okay yeah what even granting you that

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_09]: she had to know that there was a good chance that the coach really did signal her so and that's

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_09]: what he was calling that's what the the guy was calling right and and given that it is

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_09]: technically correct it's a technically correct call to keep at him which she was at every change

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_09]: over I'm not I demand an apology I am a mother I would never cheat I demand an apology I could

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_09]: she kept at it at every at every change over so then the next change over or at the end of

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_09]: another game she throws her racket down and breaks her racket and that's another violation

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_09]: nobody disputes that that's a violation you're not allowed to do that and because she had had

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_09]: the earlier violation now that's a point against her and then she kind lost her mind again demanding

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_09]: apologies there's no way the judge can apologize or the umpire can apologize for making a technically

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_01]: correct call there's no well but this is true in all sports right like the amount of complaining

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_01]: that you get in sports is like it's never the case that they're going to reverse a call

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_01]: it so but what I just want to be clear because I actually you know no but but

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_01]: she wanted an apology no I know but like the words that she chose I just want to be clear

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_01]: whether you think that it was that she threw a tantrum that that is is wrong and like when

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Maca throw through tantrum you it was wrong too but you somehow like yeah I love Serena like I

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_09]: don't think that this detracts from her greatness I'm just saying she was clearly in the wrong

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_09]: she was riling the crowd up for something that they shouldn't have been riled up for

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_09]: she was taking the spotlight away from a young star from who idolized her and she knew she was

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_09]: doing this and bringing in the fact that she was a mother rubs me the wrong way too in that that

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_09]: had nothing to do with what was going on and the whole thing about hugging her afterwards

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_09]: like like any like half decent person would do that this girl was crying you've ruined the great

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_09]: what could have been the greatest moment of her life she has played a part in in really diminishing

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_01]: that sure I just I mean but that doesn't mean we can't give her credit for doing it because she

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_01]: didn't have to do it like I think she would have been a she would have been a horrible person to

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_09]: not do it but I give I think she saw way more credit than that like and I don't think it was

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_09]: this incredibly nice gesture I think it was Serena at some level realizing oh man like I

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_09]: really shouldn't have reacted in this way to to what happened because it wasn't that bad yes maybe

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_09]: there's a double standard maybe when he called her him a thief he's no I actually not even maybe I

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_09]: don't think he should have given the game penalty yeah that's I think that's at the heart of it

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's why I'm more resistant to this because I think that that giving the game the

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_01]: the a game away or a game a penalty just taking a whole game and just giving it to

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Osaka like Osaka didn't want well that's part of the rule though he can't give an

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_09]: he can't give another penalty besides that right so in normal circumstances they would just warn

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and you know plenty of players have come out to say like I've said so much worse

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_01]: shit and only gotten warnings and I think that's at the heart of this which is

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and this is something we can never know you know and maybe the ump doesn't even know

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_01]: whether or not that decision was driven by some double standard of treatment for Serena as a

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_01]: person Serena as a woman Serena as a black person who knows who knows all we know is that

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_01]: normally that wouldn't occur and it wouldn't occur in under these circumstances that's what's at debate

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_01]: is whether or not this is by dint of her being either a woman or or a black person or a black

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_01]: woman right and that we can't that's one of those questions where given the context that

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_01]: you so I you pointed to like what they've dealt with in their past I don't see it as a stretch

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_01]: that she would be incensed thinking that it might be one of those incidents okay so I'm with you there

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_09]: but my objection to her behavior comes before that like how she acted before the game was taken

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_09]: away from her yeah because this was all said in motion before that and then yes do I think

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_09]: the umpire under those circumstances should should just have said look if you say one more

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_09]: if you call me a thief one more time or you ask that I apologize one more time I'm gonna have to

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_09]: take a game away from you I don't want to do that but I'm gonna have to do it and then if she had

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_09]: done it then you know you know there's nothing he can do but but he so that's fine but the fact is

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_09]: that that how she acted before that was is a is a real problem because she was already taking away

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_09]: from Osaka who is and and Osaka was winning and this was her way of of taking as she would never

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_09]: have reacted that way if she had been winning to that for sure I think and but this is a little bit

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_01]: why I think that that and even this conversation I think it becomes like I it's like I'm with you

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_01]: on and I even texted you that I'm with you on just the condemnation of of her behavior before

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_01]: the decision that's why I was saying that I think people are arguing sort of they're crossing

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_01]: their streams here in a weird way where the outrage is about the decision to dock her a point

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and the other people are saying but like you're not you're not admitting that her behavior was

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_01]: horrible and every everybody knows that that behavior was horrible and she was throwing

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: a tantrum and lost control and I think those two things are are totally right well yeah and

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't even know about horrible but just definitely well that's what that that's what

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_01]: me a little bit right because I was I was like if you're a Mackinac fan then you have a high

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_01]: tolerance for that stuff I've never liked when Connors or Mackin road did that shit like I

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_01]: always thought it was so petulant um so I don't have a problem but so but that wasn't

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_09]: the narrative after this is what was frustrating about that guy's tweet is the narrative was

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_09]: that Serena was entirely the victim of this again Osaka who is really who my heart went out for in

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_09]: this whole thing she was just getting relegated to just nothing she won her she's 20 years old she

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_09]: won her first Grand Slam championship this was her first Grand Slam final she's idle the person

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_09]: she beat was her idol like none of that mattered Serena was a victim and that was the narrative

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_09]: so then to see people like this guy who I don't believe watch tennis when

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah along with people like Ryan Lake who I have a ton of respect for just sort of agreeing with him

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_09]: in spite of the fact that they didn't watch the match they don't know anything about tennis or

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_09]: the rules or anything it just struck me as like I get why these conservative people are react

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_09]: this way to like this kind of just unthinking like assumptions of racism and sexism but what I'm saying

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_01]: is is that you can understand those reactions since they were after the game that they were responding

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: to the events as they unfolded in their completion like the the docking of one point

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_01]: like if they think that that was unfair and whether or not it was consciously done so that

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_01]: it was a result of of who Serena is that then that's that seems like that's what they're reacting to

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_09]: but that's not what the guy's tweet is I see dudes complain that Serena Williams is rude not

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_09]: I see like that he's not talking about the umpire at all yeah and that's I agree you're one of

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_01]: those dudes that's complaining about her rudeness yeah and there's there's no

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and there's this is why it's horrible like there's no subtlety in these discussions either

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_01]: you agree that everything bad that happened to Serena seemed is because of her being a woman or

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_01]: a black American or you seem just to be like didn't deny that any any anybody's comments at all about

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Serena are racist or anybody's actions toward her like it's it's one or the other in a way where

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_01]: it's like it's clearly it seems to me that she shouldn't have thrown a tantrum and also

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_01]: the umpire probably shouldn't have done that and whether or not one of them is

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_01]: but it gets just lost in the just gives me a fucking stomach ache the way people react on

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Twitter you know I like it's there's no subtlety there there's no and and what really freaks me out

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_01]: a little bit is in your tweet when you you in fact were specifically talking about that point

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_01]: that guy had made I don't think it gets read that way I think it gets read as like why are

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_01]: people seeing racism and sexism where there is none and that's why like all the Ben Shapiro folks

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_01]: like it and it's and you are more subtle than that like you right yes thank you and it just gets kind

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_09]: of like yeah but I will say that in the responses to it I don't know if I agree that the responses

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_09]: to it now there's some that are over the top but a lot of them are just agreeing with me that

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_09]: the reaction to Mackinac and Connors was also people people really didn't like them for when

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_01]: they did this stuff and the truth is that some people will like them some people will hate them

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_01]: right some people like Serena's Alper some people don't like and and in some cases it really is

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_01]: because I like you know did you see that Australian cartoon depicting Serena I didn't see

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_01]: it I read about it yeah it's just like it's it's like it's one of those things where

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_01]: you know maybe as an Australian he doesn't realize like the imagery that he's using

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_01]: it's it's just like a mammy throwing a tantrum with like super nappy hair in the air like in

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_01]: a stereotypical face it's like really just a horrible image and it's like well look like I

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't need to argue that everybody who disagrees with Serena's behavior is doing

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_01]: so because they're racist but all I do know is that that give you know given the history in this

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_01]: country and her own personal history it's it's not difficult to arrive at a story that the way

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_09]: that she ended up getting treated was was because but but I also think you're being too easy on

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_09]: the side that was frustrating me because people were just unthinkingly assuming that this particular

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_09]: incident that anytime somebody even gave a reasonable like expressed reasonable frustration

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_09]: that Serena Williams had kind of fucked over this young star who was beating her and taken away

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_09]: from the triumph that she should have experienced like people who were frustrated about that like

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_09]: me even people who are big Serena fans like that that somehow we were complicit in some overall

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_09]: thing and I just think that that's that's not good that people do that it's it's not good and it

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_01]: happens it happens on both both ends and in some ways the liberal reaction is is in some

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: domains even even sharper and more black and white where it's it's almost as if what

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_01]: what you were communicating wasn't the thing that you were saying it was the fact that you were

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_01]: tweeting against anything against Serena that put you on a team that they didn't see

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_01]: as the right team that's it like I'm not saying you did it I'm saying that's how

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_09]: that's how the tweets are interpreted well but I'm not sure that I agree like you know

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_09]: I then had interchanges with people I know you know or people I know from social media like Ryan

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_09]: and Mike Davy and we like were able to like I think I communicated to them how I felt and

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_09]: to a lot of people like but now I'm sure there were some people that I was communicating sending

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_09]: signals that I definitely didn't want to send yeah but it's not like people aren't capable

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_01]: of detecting any kind of nuance no it's an argument yeah it's an argument more about

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_01]: like the the severity of the response among some people where you know they'll just see it as

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_01]: dog whistling or whatever they call it and and it's sad because that actually means I'm it's

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_01]: it means that you're less likely to try to engage in subtlety over twitter which maybe

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_01]: that's yeah that's maybe that's just the last is that a bad thing I mean twitter is just like

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_01]: it's yeas and booze and then like whatever whatever specific thing is being yead and boot about

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_01]: right and and it's just not I don't know it's a fucking dumpster fire I I do think that this

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_09]: made me so should we just and feel free to say no should we just get all the intellectual

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_09]: dark web like the stuff out on the table like I think this incident and the Louis C. K. doing a

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_09]: surprise set at the comedy cellar for 10 minutes like has has made me sort of I don't know like

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_09]: I understand now the the sort of conservative reaction against yeah um I'm I mean I'm

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_01]: it's I maybe maybe by understand you mean something different because I feel like I I've

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_01]: understood it you know especially being raised pretty conservative but um well yeah that's that's

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_01]: the playground that is the playground the playground is now what worries me is that I

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I've seen I think and we've talked about this we see people getting pushed

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_01]: in one direction or another by by praise and reinforcement where like you you know

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_01]: you're by all accounts a liberal person and the liberal response or at least I shouldn't say the

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_01]: liberal look the neat the knee jerk um response that your dog whistling somehow that your racist

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_01]: gets you sort of pushed out of the left and moved a little bit more toward the right and I

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_09]: see that is like this is this is how it starts like this is how it begins I know

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_01]: it does worry me and in some ways the left you know Jesse single has has been very vocal about this

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_01]: sort like to as as people on the left to not accept to be blind to the irrationality of the

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_01]: left and not to point it out as a member of the left is is just as bad as being a member of

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_01]: the right and not pointing out the irrationality and the knee jerk reactions on the right

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and both of these things are pernicious horrible effects on public discourse and we

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_01]: should you know if a republican calls out a liberal for being too emotionally reactive about

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: something then it's so easily dismissed um likewise the other way around it like we have to be the

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_01]: ones to call to call our own people out yes and say yeah I know I agree um in that spirit

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_09]: okay can we briefly discuss the Michael Chee uh oh yeah which I thought was really interesting

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_09]: and that was the best and most interesting take on Louis CK and it was like expressing more

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_09]: our like I didn't even understand why I was frustrated with the left's reaction to it

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_09]: but then after reading this just indie wire piece I realized that's it so I think I read I don't

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_01]: remember if I read the whole Michael Chee piece but tell so so summarize so the the background is

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_09]: Louis CK for those who doesn't this was like two culture war news cycles ago but so Louis CK

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_09]: for the first time since you know the New York Times article about whipping his dick out comes on

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_09]: the the comedy seller which is what they do if you go to the comedy seller you might chances are

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_09]: if you're there on a Friday or Saturday night some big time comic will come on and do a surprise set

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_09]: and they do it for free and they're trying out new material but last time I was there Ray Romano

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_09]: came on and that was the big surprise and Louis has done this up 100 times and it's fun

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_09]: for the crowd and that's just how it is and so he came on he did about 10 minutes of material

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_09]: didn't acknowledge anything just it was just 10 minutes of new material people were clapping and then

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_09]: it was this weird phenomenon afterwards almost every single article that came out was just

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_09]: appalled and shocked with he's learned nothing we've learned nothing it was like the whole

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_09]: me too movement had been set back because of what Louis CK did but then like whenever I would talk to

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_09]: people nobody would think that at all but that was every single article that I read was and I

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_08]: find that I found that really bizarre and I found the whole thing like he's like oh so I guess he

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_08]: doesn't have to suffer any punishment or and I guess he doesn't have to like take any consequences

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_09]: for what he did and and there was something about that that I just found so bizarre like

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_09]: I think there's room for disagreement as to how much he deserves how much you know how much

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_09]: punishment he deserves but the idea that he suffered nothing just seemed crazy to me and so

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_08]: then I read this thing from Michael Che where he says let me get the thing up so I can just

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_09]: quote him and so Michael Che Saturday Night Live Guy also another comic and he says

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_09]: what's interesting to me about these articles against Louis CK performing is how important

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_08]: fame is to people a lot of what I read says that CK shouldn't get to be a famous

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_08]: comedian anymore because to them he's still winning isn't that strange and then this

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_09]: is the key quote Louis CK can be shamed humiliated lose millions of dollars lose all of his projects

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_08]: lose the respect of a lot of his fans and peers and whatever else that comes with what he did

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_08]: but since he can still do a comedy set for free at at a 200 seat club a year later it means he

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_08]: got off easy and I think that's absolutely right like and I would the only thing I would add

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_08]: to that list of the consequences that he suffered is he has two teenage daughters that now know what

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_08]: he did like like imagine Bella or for me Eliza just knowing that that's what I've done like

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't think of anything worse than that my daughter would not just not forgive me

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_01]: she's just not forgive me ever we're gonna have to I might come back to restorative justice

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_08]: and and and just beg for I mean we'll completely alter your relationship so like I guess that's what

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_08]: I it was it's this it's this disconnect for me that he got off easy like I don't think he has

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_08]: got off easy and I think if you take all those things into account it's totally reasonable to

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_08]: think that after nine months plus all of that stuff that he could be working on some material at the

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_01]: comedy set yeah I you know last time we talked about Lucy K when when the shit hit the fan

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_01]: one of the things we're saying was that any discussion about severity and the calibrated

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of moral sanctions for different kinds of infractions like that that has just gotten

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_01]: lost a long time ago so he there's just you know like Bill Cosby on the one hand and I don't know who's

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_01]: a who's a saint Michael Landon how about that for an old an old reference um and you're I you

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_09]: I bet he was a scumbag actually there's no way he wasn't a scumbag all right Mr. Rogers

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_01]: that's a Mr. Rogers yeah okay that's somebody who's a undeniable saint and there's no there's no

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_01]: people just they they're inferring some sort of intent in your communication when you say something

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_01]: like uh well what Aziz Ansari did doesn't deserve the same response as what Bill Cosby did

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_01]: like that enough that statement that you are willing to talk about that is enough to just

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_01]: get people like saying all life's matter yeah yeah exactly which is dickish they know what they're

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_01]: doing when they sit um and you don't think all lives matter only uh yeah I fell into the trap

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_01]: but all lives includes black lives how could you be against it but there's another really

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_01]: interesting thing and that gets to something else that we've talked about which is the nature

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_01]: of his public persona and why it seems more egregious to you know if if Louis C. K. were a

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_01]: welder who had whipped his dick out and then went back to welding like a couple months later

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_01]: no one would care a is not famous but even if you were a famous welder I don't know

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_01]: like uh CEOs have engaged in a horrible behavior and they and they go back to work

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and and I don't think they get a different job yeah maybe at a different job right

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_01]: but what's a different job you know what's a different job for Louis C. K. is

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_01]: is a different club a different deal with a different movie yeah production company

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_01]: it's unclear it's unclear what what he's supposed to do um other than start working at subway or

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_01]: something you know would that be would that fit him or but I still think if he just took a job

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_01]: in the back of a writer's room people would have less problem with it I think there is some

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_01]: lay perception that both because his comedy is is a reflection of you know we're laughing at the

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_01]: insightful truthful things about his life that that's been marred somehow and that his that

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_01]: that it is such a public performance of that yeah I think is what's getting people riled up

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_01]: here's where I want the market to really kick in if you don't if you don't want Louis

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_01]: C. K. to perform then don't support him and I know that might sound like a cop out but for

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_01]: these situations in which like he hasn't to my knowledge been arrested or you know

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_01]: like there is a real reason why we should choose what media to consume and why we

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_01]: should care if we want to speak about whether we think this person deserves our attention

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and our time then just fucking ignore him if you don't I don't know but so

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_09]: so that's I completely agree with you but that that would put you at opposed to

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_09]: almost every article that came out right afterwards because a lot of them were

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_09]: lambasting the got the comedy seller owner for letting him do the set you know

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean I think that's that's contrary to the spirit in which I think this stuff should

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_01]: be taken care of I would disagree in the sense that you should not confuse I think this is what

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_01]: people think they think this one guy with his little comedy club who let Louis C. K. on stage

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_01]: is reflective of society letting white men slide with like pretty nasty behavior toward women

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_01]: right now maybe that's the case and and you know maybe there's needs to be a symbolic

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_01]: you know like lynching of Louis C. K. but to just complain about it I it's not I don't

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_01]: know he's just gonna get more people he's gonna he's just gonna get more attention

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_01]: he's gotten more attention now than anything else like Michael Richards got just ignored

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_09]: right I think like I think of partly because the market will decide in a way that

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_09]: the people don't like which is I think people would be here here's what I think

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_09]: so I have absolutely no problem with him performing at the seller

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_09]: or the someone letting him perform at the seller I do think it might have been

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_09]: incumbent on him to mention what happened which apparently he didn't do and I would be

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_09]: fascinated with a Louis C. K. special you know now he puts them up on his own site anyway so

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_09]: like he doesn't need I'd be fascinated with that if part of it included him reckoning

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_09]: with what he did yeah I would be much less interested if he was just gonna do another sort of

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_09]: Louis C. K. like stand-up special like part of I think what is driving people to want

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_09]: him to return is he seems like somebody that could do something interesting with

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_09]: the humiliation and and really reckoning with the wrongs that he committed

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah yeah and if you did if you did something independently like that and really sort of

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_01]: combine a comedy special with with sort of a soul soul searching about what happened because

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I like I don't want none of what I'm saying about the market taking care of this

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_01]: is to is to at all say that that I think that I like what he did or in fact even that I would

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_01]: you know I don't think I would buy a movie of his now if it just if he just ignored it

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_01]: like and just try to get on with it but not everybody can be Bill Cosby you know

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_01]: not everybody there has to be a way for men behaving badly to

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_01]: to make better to reconcile there has to be a way in which we start allowing people to

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_01]: to just say like I fucked up and you don't have to like me but I need you to hear what I did

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_01]: or whatever and not just silence everybody who does wrong because I think we have I think

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_01]: along the lines of what you're saying we have a lot we could learn from him saying

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_01]: some of the most powerful testimony is of this the sort I did this I used to do this I used to be

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_01]: this and now I did otherwise like you know I don't know there's too much and we do have to be able

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_09]: I know Matt Damon got into big trouble but we do have to be able to make distinctions in terms of

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_09]: what you know like while still not exonerating a person or yeah or still acknowledging that

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_09]: that what they did was bad we can't lump everybody together we really do otherwise I don't know it

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_09]: seems like the temptation will be to exonerate everybody rather than convict everybody like

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_09]: Roxanne Gay who's you know New York Times column or guest columnist I guess she wrote

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_09]: something kind of outraged at Louis CK for coming back but then even she was very frustrated I saw

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_09]: this on Twitter that people were lumping a Zezan sorry in with Louis with Louis CK and Harvey

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_09]: Weinstein but I think you could be similarly outraged that people are lumping Louis CK in

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_09]: with Harvey Weinstein because they're completely different kinds of offenses yeah I mean our

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_01]: minds aren't really built to to make these sharp these very very clear definitions but

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_01]: but that's all that saying is that it takes effort and the other thing I'll say is that we have

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_01]: to be I think really vigilant that we're applying the same you know once we get if we are able

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_01]: to get calibrated then we have to make sure that we're calibrated equivalently among whatever

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_01]: you know black guys who do something bad and women who do something bad in the same way

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_09]: like as long as we're vigilant about that we have to be similarly forgiving if a woman whips out her

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_09]: dick than if a man her strap on wait women don't have can I can I say there's one other element

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_09]: though to both these stories it was actually the thread that connected them to me which is

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_09]: that at least you know right following the event the reaction from the media the popular media

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_09]: seemed very much at odds with the reaction of people that I know now the people that I know are

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_09]: liberal and racist academics no I mean even you know and and I think there is something

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_09]: to maybe the fact that for the people who were really outraged by Louis C.K. going up or

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_09]: that was an opinion that they felt confident expressing but the people who weren't didn't

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_09]: feel that way didn't feel confident expressing it right this is not to I'm not going full John

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_09]: height here at all you know listeners know my feelings about that yeah but but I but I do think

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_01]: that that this this is a result of the particular like the particular context in which you find

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_01]: yourself I think that the same might be true for the right wingers but but there are powerful

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_01]: media outlets I don't know I don't know if we're just more likely to read the liberal

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_01]: media I honestly don't know but I will say this you're so much more of a moral busy body

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_09]: than you ever like to admit there was something about these two stories that got me I mean there's

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_09]: been a hundred other ones that I couldn't give a shit about like the Sarah Jiong thing like

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_09]: couldn't give a shit either way like let everybody get all worked up about your consistent in

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_01]: your inconsistency exactly and we are and we're actually what should be really bothersome is

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_01]: that the only reason that you're like that is because of some combination of your environment

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and your yes did we even say we didn't we didn't

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah go for it on today's episode god if it if this even becomes an episode

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_09]: we're gonna be talking about a paper by George Scher philosopher Rice who I know pretty well and

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_09]: who I like a lot um called but I could be wrong about what to do once we realize that our moral

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_09]: beliefs are contingent upon a lot of cultural environmental factors and that we have no

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_09]: specially good reason to think that our beliefs are true and that the people who

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_09]: disagree with us their their beliefs are false after having convincingly argued for

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_09]: moral position especially aft all right all right well let's take a break and we'll be right back

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_01]: welcome back to very bad wizards welcome all new idw listeners who have come because of

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_01]: tamils because Ben Shapiro cosigned cosigned tamler on on twitter this is all just

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_09]: all just a long con to get to get listeners to indoctrinate you into our left wing

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_01]: identity politics exactly so no thank you to all our listeners we really really appreciate

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[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_01]: your tweets your emails your facebook posts your it keeps us going and we read them all

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_01]: we read them all especially in those nights of insomnia where I can't I can't handle doing

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[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_09]: messages so just don't facebook message especially Dave because he doesn't read them yeah no I

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_01]: there I have an aversion to facebook but but I don't know I don't know why we're still trying to be

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[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_01]: we really really appreciate and at least tamler has done some good work in giving the promised

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_01]: bonus content so tamler you recently released three is that right three hour episode three hour

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_09]: episode breaking down Twin Peaks the series but especially the latest season and fire walk with me

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_09]: but certainly it was great it was yeah did I mention it was with Jesse Graham Natalia

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_09]: Washington the philosopher and psychologist from Utah both big Twin Peaks fans that were as

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_09]: obsessed with it as I was and it was awesome I really enjoyed that conversation and we could

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_09]: have gone we might do another one we've already in talks to do another one based on a series of

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_09]: questions a couple of which have been asked by already by our listeners in response so yeah

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_01]: there's been really good feedback so if you want to be able to listen to that you can become a

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_01]: patreon supporter that's for two dollars and up per episode supporters and we'll do more of those

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_01]: hopefully I can catch up let me ask you really quickly how important is fire walk with me crucial

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_01]: it is okay all right uh so i gotta watch that it's not damn it it's like it's it's argued

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_09]: it might be his best movie like it's amazing erase her head no so if you would like to support

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_01]: us and listen to the bonus content you can go to patreon.com slash very bad wizards you

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I also I know i'm going to now say this for the next three months but i'm also very close

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_01]: to having the new beat the new beat cd the beats without rhymes volume four volume four volume

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_01]: four I know so if you would like to support us that way through the more tangible means patreon.com

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_01]: slash very bad wizards or you can go to our support page and there are a couple of other

[00:54:55] [SPEAKER_01]: ways to support us you can give us a one-time donation via paypal and you can go to amazon

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[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_01]: just get a little piece small percentage of of the things that people buy and that that we really

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_01]: appreciate that yeah so thanks for everybody thanks to everybody I should say for for all

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_01]: your support we're just a mess at this point we really are working out all right okay oh wait

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_01]: no let me say really quickly uh do you know when your audiobook is coming out I think it's not coming

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_01]: out till november okay well if you can't wait for the audiobook buy tamler's book and write him

[00:55:39] [SPEAKER_01]: angry emails but but tell a friend if you've already bought it and if you liked it i think we

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_01]: haven't plugged your book in a while so no i wanted I forgot all about it yeah you've moved on like I

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_09]: care about honor or something I don't totally remember am i pro con do you remember ben

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_09]: Shapiro says great job no he doesn't that's the fucking problem if you would ben Shapiro

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_09]: if you're listening how about uh how about promoting the book three or four more tweets

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_01]: the dog whistle to our crowd and I'll get you I'll get you that yeah what's next how many more dog

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_09]: whistles do you just sit down well let's first take care of that that's the good thing about

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_09]: Sam Harris he doesn't require any dog whistles that's right all right so today we're gonna talk

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_09]: about a yeah paper by George sure um philosopher at rice as I said called but I could be wrong

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_09]: it's very simple paper it it reckons with two facts that are undeniable I think although the

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_09]: second one needs to be argued for and we can talk about that the first is I often disagree

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_09]: with others about what I morally ought to do I disagree with other people about what the right

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_09]: moral thing to do is and so that's number one I think that's obviously true uh the second one

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_09]: is the moral outlook that supports my current judgment about what I ought to do has been

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_09]: shaped by my upbringing and experiences for just about any alternative judgment there is some

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_09]: different upbringing and set of experiences that would have caused me to acquire a moral outlook

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_09]: that would in turn have supported this alternate judgment so you know I'm pro-choice but there's

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_09]: another kind of upbringing and set of experiences that I could have had that would have led me

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_09]: to be pro-life and so on down the line for all these moral positions that we take and moral

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_09]: choices that we make so what do we do about that when we recognize that there

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_09]: that a lot of our moral beliefs and moral convictions and the things that make us

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_09]: act in the way we do donate to various causes vote for various candidates they are based on

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_09]: things that are the result of in some way kind of an accident of our birth and the

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_09]: environment that we grew up in how can we act according to to these convictions when when we

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_09]: know this when we were if we're mature enough to recognize this what confidence do we have that

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_09]: we're being rational when we act according to these convictions right um that these two facts

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_01]: seem to undermine any hope that what we're acting on is justifiable is is is defensible

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_01]: rationally justifiable yeah rationally justifiable it seems to undermine it at least that I could

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_01]: have believed something completely different um through through just sheer circumstance um and this

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_01]: realization maybe would you know take the wind out of my sails when it comes to being motivated

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_01]: by my moral beliefs so much of our moral beliefs are about like well it is the right thing to

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_01]: do therefore I should act on it if you if you're not convinced that that's that it is the right thing

[00:59:15] [SPEAKER_09]: to do then why the fuck do you you know do you do it do you act on the conclusion that he draws and

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_09]: then we'll talk about the the meat of the argument but that it's true we have strong reasons to

[00:59:29] [SPEAKER_09]: doubt the truth of our moral beliefs and moral convictions because of the contingency of their

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_09]: origin and yet it's still rational to act according to those convictions right so let's talk about

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_09]: first of all whether I think we both probably agree with the premises but I think some other people

[00:59:53] [SPEAKER_09]: won't maybe some of our new bed Ben Shapiro listeners will think no we have the rational

[01:00:03] [SPEAKER_09]: right I know nothing about Ben Shapiro by the way so totally fair I know here he is retweeting you

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_01]: doing you a solid most ungrateful shitting on him yeah I want to take a step back because I think it

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_01]: is it is a particular kind of problem that's I don't know what my voice did there I said it

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_01]: like I was going through puberty it's a particular kind of problem um that is different from normal

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_01]: skepticism you're becoming a man say our empirical finally about about our empirical beliefs right so

[01:00:32] [SPEAKER_01]: there is a there's a standard sort of route to skepticism through the argument that well how are

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_01]: we to be sure about the empirical world around us for all we know we're brains and vats or we're

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_01]: being controlled by an evil demon that's giving us hallucinations um and therefore we can't really

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_01]: be certain that the world the underlying reality is the same as the way we perceive it to be

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_01]: he says you know yeah fine that's that is a class of argument but but it's not quite like the one

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_01]: that he's mounting here because for one there's convergence of uh you know if I see uh pothole

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_01]: in the street you probably see one too like there is the fact that we agree on basic basic

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_01]: perceptual facts about the world around us is enough to to just say well it doesn't doesn't matter so

[01:01:25] [SPEAKER_01]: much look if there is an evil demon or for brains and vats it really has no implications so the

[01:01:30] [SPEAKER_01]: argument goes here for the way in which we act we we act on the things that we perceive this he

[01:01:37] [SPEAKER_01]: says this kind of argument is is a little bit more distressing because there isn't that level

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_09]: of agreement well yeah exactly there's no there's no positive evidence that we are brains and vats

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_09]: but there is positive evidence that our moral beliefs are the result of that's right our contingent

[01:01:58] [SPEAKER_09]: circumstances and backgrounds and environment right yeah it's uncontroversial um but it will

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_01]: matter later on he gets into this it will matter what the nature of that disagreement is

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and this is the first worry that I had about about this which is I think a lot of times

[01:02:18] [SPEAKER_01]: philosophers and and baby psychologists too that we overestimate the degree of moral disagreement

[01:02:25] [SPEAKER_01]: it talks about this a little bit but I think that in many many cases moral disagreements

[01:02:31] [SPEAKER_01]: are really just disagreements about about facts of the matter right so you might take like

[01:02:37] [SPEAKER_09]: immigration or something which might seem like a moral disagreement but probably a lot of the

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_09]: disagreement there is over the economic and maybe you know the the economic consequences of

[01:02:51] [SPEAKER_09]: our immigration policies and the amount of crime that is either increased or decreased by it

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_09]: there's a lot of facts that people disagree disagree upon and where they made aware of those

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_09]: facts they might have different judgments but still I actually don't think that I think you're

[01:03:15] [SPEAKER_09]: right about that but I don't think that affects his argument because we sometimes often don't have

[01:03:24] [SPEAKER_09]: any necessarily good reason to think that we have our facts right either right yeah maybe so but I

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_01]: but then it becomes a different sort of argument which is is there a reliable way is you know

[01:03:38] [SPEAKER_01]: epistemologically reliable way to get facts clear and that seems like less daunting of a problem

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_09]: because so my point is I think what you were leading to was that this uncertainty is about the

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_09]: only the moral disagreement and I think we can incorporate some of the factual uncertainty into

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_01]: this argument too yeah like maybe but I think what I wanted to emphasize was that the we

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_01]: know when we would see a right scientific answer like if we could fast forward a thousand years

[01:04:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and the claim was that the earth is going to get hotter unless we do this if we could fast

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: forward a thousand years there would be a true answer there for us awaiting and that

[01:04:17] [SPEAKER_01]: doesn't seem to be the case with a moral fact which is in general what I want to talk to you about

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: like it seems to assume that what we care about are uncovering moral facts is that right this

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_09]: this argument really sort of yeah I don't think so I I think this is at bottom a paper about

[01:04:38] [SPEAKER_09]: how do we make confident judgments about what we have reason to do now I took it that what

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_09]: you were saying was that sometimes these moral disagreements are actually at bottom not moral

[01:04:53] [SPEAKER_09]: disagreements but factual disagreements right which is true but I still think there's still

[01:05:00] [SPEAKER_09]: that question given that we don't know the facts for sure yeah and we still have to make a decision

[01:05:07] [SPEAKER_09]: we have to make a decision now what do we do we can't wait a thousand years to see who is right

[01:05:13] [SPEAKER_09]: we have to make the decision now and so now we're faced with this is it am I just going into this

[01:05:21] [SPEAKER_09]: blind or do I have reason to do anything or or or not now I think the problem gets even more

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_09]: what's the word it's unwieldy just vexing I don't know yeah if you if it's not even a factual

[01:05:39] [SPEAKER_09]: disagreement but yeah say a moral disagreement at bottom you know maybe the abortion debate

[01:05:46] [SPEAKER_01]: is an example or like capital punishment right like uh that people who kill ought to die right

[01:05:51] [SPEAKER_01]: it's sometimes that turns on an empirical disagreement like when people say that the

[01:05:56] [SPEAKER_01]: that the reason to have it or not have it is because of the effect it will have on future

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_09]: crime yes what about if you're so forget you're saying it's not about deterrence I

[01:06:08] [SPEAKER_09]: whatever its effect on deterrence is is not the issue the issue is that somebody who has killed

[01:06:14] [SPEAKER_09]: somebody does deserve to die and the state is if is right to put them to death the state has the

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_01]: right to do that or anybody let's just say let's just say anybody like they just deserve to die

[01:06:26] [SPEAKER_01]: like like right let's say you say yes I say no we seem to be at a standstill right and part of

[01:06:32] [SPEAKER_01]: it means to have a moral belief is is to think that it is true and to think that yours must not be

[01:06:39] [SPEAKER_09]: true if it's contradicts mine and but that's yeah if you had had my background or then you would be

[01:06:47] [SPEAKER_01]: believing what I believe right and so he says like how does that not fuck us up right how does

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_01]: it not fuck us up that that's the case and um what I what I want to hear you say a little

[01:06:58] [SPEAKER_01]: bit more about is that in the way that I framed it for instance you believe that someone who

[01:07:02] [SPEAKER_01]: kills ought to die I don't is it only a problem if I think there's a just an underlying objective

[01:07:10] [SPEAKER_01]: truth isn't it only vexing if if I think that that there is a true statement there

[01:07:19] [SPEAKER_09]: and one of us so your idea is if we don't think there's a fact of the matter

[01:07:27] [SPEAKER_09]: then we won't have a problem acting according to that belief yeah so say I like and this will get to

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_01]: a little bit later in his argument too but say I love chocolate ice cream and you hate it yeah

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not vexed by this like I know that the reason I like chocolate ice cream is just that

[01:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I was born and raised in a particular way my genetics are certain way and yours are not

[01:07:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and I have reason to act on my preference and you don't and that doesn't seem to

[01:07:53] [SPEAKER_01]: to toss my aesthetic judgments into into question in the same way that

[01:07:57] [SPEAKER_01]: that they would for a moral question but I think only because we think that moral questions really

[01:08:01] [SPEAKER_09]: have a correct answer to them I mean I actually think that that's along the lines of what he's

[01:08:06] [SPEAKER_09]: going to end up arguing in the conclusion of that moral judgments end up being just like

[01:08:13] [SPEAKER_09]: all these other judgments that we make aesthetic or other kinds of value judgments

[01:08:18] [SPEAKER_09]: that maybe we're not that committed to there being a fact of the matter but I just to

[01:08:24] [SPEAKER_09]: try to entertain this idea so let's say somebody has killed our best friend

[01:08:32] [SPEAKER_09]: and we found the person who did it one of us thinks we should kill him the other one doesn't

[01:08:39] [SPEAKER_09]: and now one of us has the gun and has to like let's say I have the gun and I have to decide

[01:08:44] [SPEAKER_09]: whether to do it or not you're saying screenplay by Tamler Summers exactly a film do you're saying I

[01:08:55] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm saying I should now as I am deciding whether to pull the trigger like it really matters to me

[01:09:04] [SPEAKER_09]: whether I think that I have any good reason to think that my view is more right is better

[01:09:12] [SPEAKER_09]: founded more plausible than yours because I'm about to make a big fucking decision it's not right so

[01:09:18] [SPEAKER_09]: it's not like chocolate ice cream this is like this is like I'm going to either take a life or

[01:09:23] [SPEAKER_09]: not take a life and so I would want to be fairly certain not necessarily that my view is objectively

[01:09:31] [SPEAKER_09]: true but at least that it's a kind of a plausible way to act under the circumstances

[01:09:38] [SPEAKER_01]: right there's some level of naive you know so not to toss around the lingo too much but so there's

[01:09:43] [SPEAKER_01]: some sort of naive cognitivism or realism or objectivism that's like a not fully fleshed out

[01:09:50] [SPEAKER_01]: but in the way that people think about those moral beliefs like they think that they're true

[01:09:54] [SPEAKER_01]: in some meaningful way they're not just saying like no I kind of like but I think that's also

[01:09:58] [SPEAKER_09]: because of the gravity of the some of these decisions you know like deciding whether to

[01:10:03] [SPEAKER_09]: have an abortion deciding whether like like this is this is these are you don't think it's

[01:10:08] [SPEAKER_01]: serious to choose chocolate or but you know but it might be like if you were talking about

[01:10:15] [SPEAKER_09]: you know what career to go into not necessarily a moral decision unless you're Willow MacAskill

[01:10:20] [SPEAKER_09]: but like you know it also might you might want to think holy shit I have good reason

[01:10:26] [SPEAKER_09]: to think that this is and that might be more parallel right what you're saying is we're

[01:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: when we're talking about moral beliefs versus just simple preferences we might be confounding

[01:10:38] [SPEAKER_01]: it with severity or seriousness of gravity of the gravity of the judgment so so maybe

[01:10:45] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe we wouldn't think that it's a fact to I mean part of what it means to make a moral claim

[01:10:51] [SPEAKER_01]: is that it is serious I suppose so I'm trying to think of a trivial moral claim like I ought not

[01:10:57] [SPEAKER_01]: park in a handicap spot or something right like if I really truly believe that to be morally

[01:11:03] [SPEAKER_01]: right even though the consequences I mean maybe to a handicap person trying to to park there that day

[01:11:09] [SPEAKER_01]: even though there's a gajillion of those it seems like right there's like 12 of them and

[01:11:15] [SPEAKER_09]: nobody's ever in yeah I know it's the most they're right in front of the store so unfair

[01:11:22] [SPEAKER_01]: um yeah I don't know that I'm listening Ben Shapiro this is actually an interesting empirical

[01:11:29] [SPEAKER_01]: question do low like fairly non-consequential and in the sense that they're not serious there's not

[01:11:35] [SPEAKER_01]: grave moral decisions are we less likely to I think claim that they're true I think we're

[01:11:41] [SPEAKER_09]: I think we're probably less likely to or false it's true but we're also less I think

[01:11:46] [SPEAKER_09]: we're definitely less likely to be bothered by the the considerations that he's pointing to

[01:11:51] [SPEAKER_09]: if I think that I ought not to park in a handicapped spot it's and then I reflect that the reason I

[01:12:01] [SPEAKER_09]: think that is because I grew up in my family always never parked there and it's just not

[01:12:06] [SPEAKER_09]: going to bother me that much that that's the result so let's sort of I think you could

[01:12:12] [SPEAKER_09]: disagree with and I think maybe some of our listeners do disagree with the claim that

[01:12:19] [SPEAKER_09]: we don't have good reason to believe that our moral beliefs are the correct ones

[01:12:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean this is exactly remember in in our Sam when we recorded our episode with Sam Harris

[01:12:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I think he on waking up right yeah on waking up you know you were expressing something like

[01:12:37] [SPEAKER_01]: like this and I think we both feel this way it's always good to to just be a little humble about

[01:12:43] [SPEAKER_01]: whether or not we're believing the right thing because we might be wrong and Sam was like well

[01:12:49] [SPEAKER_01]: no I'm not because we were talking specifically about the abortion paper that we had he said

[01:12:55] [SPEAKER_09]: I think I'm not I'm not vulnerable to some of those biases and those you know wrong

[01:13:01] [SPEAKER_01]: right because he's really he had really thought it out right so his view and I think a lot of

[01:13:05] [SPEAKER_01]: people might in fact think that especially listeners to this podcast who who obviously spend a lot of

[01:13:10] [SPEAKER_09]: time thinking about moral shit right yeah and I think that George sure has a good line about

[01:13:15] [SPEAKER_09]: this he says if I'm tempted to think otherwise if I'm tempted to think that my beliefs are really

[01:13:20] [SPEAKER_09]: well founded he said I need only remind myself how often such situations arise if I am entitled

[01:13:27] [SPEAKER_09]: to assume that you have been less successful than me in purging your thinking of causally

[01:13:33] [SPEAKER_09]: induced error then I must be entitled to make the same assumption about the great majority of others

[01:13:39] [SPEAKER_09]: with whom I disagree about the vast numbers of intelligent and sophisticated vegetarians pacifists

[01:13:47] [SPEAKER_09]: postmodernist deconstructionists gender feminists pro-lifers proponents of partial birth abortion

[01:13:55] [SPEAKER_09]: neutralists advocates of hate speech codes fundamentalists libertines rigorists and

[01:14:01] [SPEAKER_09]: egoists I don't know what a rigorous is to name just a view but although it is certainly possible

[01:14:07] [SPEAKER_09]: that I have been more successful in avoiding error than some of these others this is likely on

[01:14:12] [SPEAKER_09]: statistical grounds alone it strains credulity to suppose that I have been more successful than

[01:14:18] [SPEAKER_09]: all or even most of them it would be something of a miracle if out of all the disputants

[01:14:24] [SPEAKER_09]: it was just me who got it all right I think that's by the way like George sure has a slightly

[01:14:32] [SPEAKER_01]: conservative bent as you could probably say but like libertines like this sounds awesome

[01:14:38] [SPEAKER_09]: like you're one of those people who disagree yeah and a guy well I am a hardcore rigorous

[01:14:47] [SPEAKER_09]: I honestly don't know what that is to you I have no idea what a rigorous

[01:14:51] [SPEAKER_09]: George yeah um and you're a proponent of partial birth abortion

[01:14:59] [SPEAKER_01]: well if you're gonna eat meat you might as well kill babies um I care as I've said I care about

[01:15:07] [SPEAKER_09]: consistency more than anything so so his point is is that that position that Sam Harris maybe

[01:15:14] [SPEAKER_09]: we're unfairly attributing to him is really implausible and I think while Sam sort of

[01:15:19] [SPEAKER_09]: boldly stated that that's his view I and we didn't we often act as though yeah we're

[01:15:27] [SPEAKER_08]: we're right and we have good reason to think that we're right well and this is part of sure

[01:15:32] [SPEAKER_01]: sure is and and by the way Sam has admitted to changing his mind on our podcast so it's not

[01:15:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't believe Sam that he always thinks but that that point that like where were we to not

[01:15:45] [SPEAKER_01]: have the belief that we had arrived at this through some reliable process is the very point

[01:15:50] [SPEAKER_01]: of the paper which is that there is a reason we walk around thinking that we arrived at it through

[01:15:54] [SPEAKER_01]: the right means um when whenever we do reflect on it because not thinking that would seem to really

[01:16:00] [SPEAKER_01]: undermine what like why like why would you act so seriously on a belief that you have such

[01:16:06] [SPEAKER_09]: little faith in right why would I go to the polls and vote for candidates if I really didn't

[01:16:13] [SPEAKER_09]: think I had any better reason than the people who are going to vote exactly the opposite way than I am

[01:16:20] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah you might I mean you might as well flip a coin in a two-party system yeah so but this is

[01:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: different than thinking there is no right answer which might also deflate deflate you like you

[01:16:30] [SPEAKER_01]: might you might go into it thinking like well there are no moral that like a moral any moral

[01:16:35] [SPEAKER_01]: claim is ridiculous to begin with so I have like this is just like me saying I like ice cream

[01:16:40] [SPEAKER_01]: so fuck you I'm gonna vote for the NRA or whatever um this is this is an argument that

[01:16:47] [SPEAKER_01]: would undermine somebody who who walks around thinking that they have good reason to act yeah

[01:16:54] [SPEAKER_09]: I take it most people I mean so I don't know if this is part of the conclusion or this is

[01:17:00] [SPEAKER_09]: you know if you have a judgment that's not necessarily a moral judgment but say a judgment

[01:17:07] [SPEAKER_09]: about what movie to go see or something like that between a bunch of movies reflecting on

[01:17:14] [SPEAKER_09]: the causal now that doesn't work as well because in that case even if your your judgment about

[01:17:25] [SPEAKER_09]: what movie to see is is the result of your contingent history it's still your contingent

[01:17:30] [SPEAKER_09]: history yeah so maybe that's but maybe that's what he says about moral beliefs too yeah

[01:17:35] [SPEAKER_01]: right so yeah that gets us to that but but I very much think that things like aesthetic judgments

[01:17:42] [SPEAKER_01]: it is not it is not a that much of a difficulty that that these contingent facts gave rise you know

[01:17:47] [SPEAKER_01]: the fact that I was born and raised in the time and place that I do I know that's why I like rap

[01:17:52] [SPEAKER_01]: music like there's no getting around that that's why I came to enjoy rap music and and it's

[01:17:58] [SPEAKER_01]: it would be weird for me to say everybody ought to like rap music at the expense of other forms

[01:18:03] [SPEAKER_01]: of music because it's not that's not at all tied to my expression of liking rap music so what he

[01:18:10] [SPEAKER_09]: what he wants to do is block the inference from I have no good reason to believe that my own moral

[01:18:16] [SPEAKER_09]: judgments are more likely to be justified or true than those of innumerable others who

[01:18:22] [SPEAKER_09]: disagree with me so block the inference from that too I cannot rationally base my actions

[01:18:28] [SPEAKER_09]: on my own moral judgments right that's the thing that he's he does at the end of the paper he says

[01:18:38] [SPEAKER_09]: I need to demonstrate that rational for me to base my actions on my own moral judgments

[01:18:44] [SPEAKER_09]: not just because I think that I have really strong reasons for believing that the judgments

[01:18:51] [SPEAKER_01]: are justified or true but rather the analogy is to any other form of practical deliberation

[01:19:00] [SPEAKER_01]: where you might have equivalent reason to doubt the rationality of at least of the process by

[01:19:05] [SPEAKER_01]: which you've got those beliefs but you nonetheless still act on them right yes I mean take an example

[01:19:11] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know if this is moral but I think it might be like that what we talked about last time

[01:19:16] [SPEAKER_09]: which got some debate on our Reddit subreddit you know whether I should have used the n word or not

[01:19:23] [SPEAKER_09]: right right and that's a question that you know in the end I determined that I should say it but

[01:19:31] [SPEAKER_09]: bleep it out I know that there are people there are plenty of people who disagree with that

[01:19:35] [SPEAKER_09]: and so the question is knowing that there are plenty of people who disagree knowing that

[01:19:41] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't have any great reason to think that my view on it is more well founded or justified than

[01:19:49] [SPEAKER_09]: the people who disagree with me do I have good reason to still go ahead and do it

[01:19:54] [SPEAKER_09]: and George Scherz says yes I do yeah simply because it's my it's there's still even though

[01:20:04] [SPEAKER_09]: I might not be as justified it's still my reasons and my background and so that justifies or that

[01:20:13] [SPEAKER_01]: makes it rational for me to act according to that right so this this is the the step that

[01:20:19] [SPEAKER_01]: that confused me a little bit but it's clear it became clear when you realize that the

[01:20:25] [SPEAKER_01]: question that he's starting with is simply that of is it rational to act on your beliefs

[01:20:30] [SPEAKER_01]: which which makes sense I think in the way that you said it the fact that they are my beliefs

[01:20:38] [SPEAKER_01]: motivating me to act it's not irrational to act on them however what it sound what the paper

[01:20:48] [SPEAKER_01]: sounded like it was gonna do was offer a way out of actually endorsing those beliefs as

[01:20:56] [SPEAKER_01]: rationally justified so because because what he's saying basically is well look like to me it

[01:21:02] [SPEAKER_01]: became clear when you said like what option like what would be your other option to act

[01:21:06] [SPEAKER_01]: in an opposite way like that would be really weird right like it would be really weird if

[01:21:10] [SPEAKER_01]: you said like I grew up like believing in pro-choice and now that I've come to doubt whether

[01:21:19] [SPEAKER_01]: or not that process was a reliable one at acquiring moral truth and that other people who believe

[01:21:24] [SPEAKER_01]: the opposite of me might have the exact same sort of sense of its rightness and in both cases

[01:21:31] [SPEAKER_01]: it's just an accident of our upbringing it would be extra irrational for me to then just flip my

[01:21:37] [SPEAKER_01]: decision right that doesn't make any sense at all the only thing we have in some way

[01:21:42] [SPEAKER_01]: the way I read the argument is the only thing we have to go on our own moral beliefs so

[01:21:47] [SPEAKER_01]: it's not irrational to go on them it still leaves me with some skepticism about my moral

[01:21:52] [SPEAKER_09]: beliefs so but I mean again think about what your other options are yeah which you could flip a coin

[01:22:00] [SPEAKER_09]: like do I have an abortion or not I think the other live option that he considers is okay maybe

[01:22:09] [SPEAKER_09]: I just act according to my non-moral beliefs and anytime there I just completely disregard my

[01:22:16] [SPEAKER_09]: moral beliefs and only act according to non-moral beliefs and that's where he says those

[01:22:22] [SPEAKER_09]: they're not different really you know and maybe this is a place to press the argument but he says

[01:22:30] [SPEAKER_09]: look you don't have any better reason to believe you know your non-moral value judgments than your

[01:22:38] [SPEAKER_09]: moral value judgments you don't have any better reason to believe they're justified so I'm willing

[01:22:43] [SPEAKER_01]: to grant that given if you do believe that the the veracity or whatever the rightness of

[01:22:50] [SPEAKER_01]: your moral beliefs is undermined by by their contingent nature I'm you know I'm convinced that

[01:22:57] [SPEAKER_01]: it's still rational to act on them but what I'm not convinced about is that that this is

[01:23:05] [SPEAKER_01]: at the same level of uncontroversial rationality of acting on your say aesthetic judgments

[01:23:10] [SPEAKER_01]: even so it just really is something completely like it is not intrinsic to my aesthetic judgment

[01:23:17] [SPEAKER_01]: that it that they be objectively right in a way that it is seems to be for my moral judgment and

[01:23:22] [SPEAKER_01]: importantly because and I think this is what one of the reasons that that maybe he gets away with

[01:23:29] [SPEAKER_01]: this limited argument one of the one of the differences is that my moral beliefs are

[01:23:34] [SPEAKER_01]: generally not just about what I ought to do but about what everybody else ought to do and

[01:23:39] [SPEAKER_01]: there it it seems to me to be really important that I'm believing the right thing

[01:23:45] [SPEAKER_01]: because my moral actions don't just influence my deliberations for action they influence my desire

[01:23:51] [SPEAKER_01]: to influence you know my desire to change the behaviors of others who are acting wrongly and

[01:23:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that it given these two arguments about disagreement and about the contingent nature

[01:24:03] [SPEAKER_01]: of our beliefs it doesn't seem rational to try to convince somebody else of the moral truth

[01:24:09] [SPEAKER_09]: of my position right yeah no I completely get it so one sort of conclusion you might draw from this is

[01:24:20] [SPEAKER_09]: okay if it's a totally if it's a personal decision that I have to make about my own conduct well

[01:24:28] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah I gotta just act according to what I think is right at the time and but when it comes to

[01:24:36] [SPEAKER_09]: condemning other people for their moral beliefs or when it comes to trying to persuade or in some cases

[01:24:47] [SPEAKER_09]: compel other people to act according to my moral beliefs I need I better be convinced that

[01:24:55] [SPEAKER_09]: my judgments are more well justified than competing judgment right exactly so I don't think he

[01:25:04] [SPEAKER_09]: tackles that alternative or that question too well but I think there's the grist for that by saying

[01:25:14] [SPEAKER_09]: okay but we do still have to have laws and we do still have to vote for those laws and we do still

[01:25:23] [SPEAKER_09]: engage in blaming and praising behavior and so again what is your alternative you could be

[01:25:31] [SPEAKER_09]: completely less a fair but now you're by doing that you're taking a moral position too yeah but

[01:25:38] [SPEAKER_01]: that's why I think it's important because because of that social nature of these moral beliefs and

[01:25:43] [SPEAKER_01]: the desire to regulate everyone else I think it is important to have to not just sort of accept

[01:25:49] [SPEAKER_01]: the you know premise B that these beliefs are completely contingent but to actually try to

[01:25:55] [SPEAKER_01]: to figure out a process by which we're gonna acquire things that might be and I don't want to

[01:26:02] [SPEAKER_01]: say true because I think that that's part of what makes this argument problematic to begin with

[01:26:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that and this is going to be very very poorly fleshed out and we're already

[01:26:14] [SPEAKER_01]: been recording for too long but I think something like

[01:26:19] [SPEAKER_01]: morality and moral rules and moral beliefs are really about finding a way to live

[01:26:25] [SPEAKER_01]: with other agents in the world who have intentions desires hopes and beliefs

[01:26:30] [SPEAKER_01]: in a way that that can make everybody live in some functional harmony and there is no

[01:26:38] [SPEAKER_01]: there just is no objective fact about whether something is right or wrong including whether

[01:26:46] [SPEAKER_01]: or not it's right or wrong to kill somebody who's killed someone you love like that I think it is

[01:26:54] [SPEAKER_01]: something that is worked out between people living in a society as to what is the best way of

[01:27:00] [SPEAKER_01]: getting together in this society and I know it sounds like a relativistic argument but

[01:27:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think so I think that there is a reliable way in which like you can talk to

[01:27:09] [SPEAKER_01]: people and arrive at things that are fair and agreed upon without having to give up whether or

[01:27:18] [SPEAKER_01]: not there is a right a better or a worse way of making moral judgments but without having to

[01:27:24] [SPEAKER_01]: think that these like we have to just like if we dig far deep enough we'll find the

[01:27:29] [SPEAKER_09]: ultimate moral rules right you are you know you might think of society I know a lot of

[01:27:34] [SPEAKER_09]: people do think of society that way the really morality at bottom is just how are we supposed

[01:27:39] [SPEAKER_09]: to set up a society so that we can all get along in the best possible way I I think though that

[01:27:46] [SPEAKER_09]: the problem comes when there's still going to be all these decisions like do you support

[01:27:53] [SPEAKER_09]: affirmative action policies or something where it you know maybe you have to set a policy

[01:27:59] [SPEAKER_09]: and your department or you're you know about whether to give favor to more diverse candidates

[01:28:07] [SPEAKER_09]: you're gonna have to go by what you believe without being certain that what you believe is

[01:28:12] [SPEAKER_09]: either is well founded on that and you just there's no way out of that I don't think yeah

[01:28:17] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah I actually like in this discussion I make it I think something there I have a little

[01:28:22] [SPEAKER_01]: bit more clarity about what about what I think about the situations which is that

[01:28:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it gets us into trouble to think that there is a right or wrong answer to say affirmative

[01:28:34] [SPEAKER_01]: action that people just are you know they don't get it or they do get it right and I and I think

[01:28:42] [SPEAKER_01]: that that having a bit of humility about what right might be including the empirical you know

[01:28:48] [SPEAKER_01]: the empirical objectives as well as concerns about justice if if we released a little bit

[01:28:54] [SPEAKER_01]: of stubbornness in thinking that there was a you know that once we found the secret code of all

[01:28:59] [SPEAKER_01]: that is right and true and moral that it would give us the answer to affirmative action we just

[01:29:05] [SPEAKER_01]: admit that hey there is no true like in fact in some situations it seems very appropriate

[01:29:12] [SPEAKER_01]: in some situations it might not be appropriate for either empirical concerns or concerns about

[01:29:16] [SPEAKER_01]: justice and the only way to get around it sometimes is to say well look like we're

[01:29:21] [SPEAKER_01]: going to slightly value this thing in the hopes that it will bring about this thing but

[01:29:26] [SPEAKER_01]: but I am open to reevaluating and saying this shit didn't work or this was wrong

[01:29:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and I think that that attitude can give us progress but the attitude that there is a

[01:29:38] [SPEAKER_01]: right thing or a wrong thing we'll just all it will do is keep us fighting yeah no I agree

[01:29:43] [SPEAKER_09]: and it's a point that exudes from the paper which is that we should have humility

[01:29:51] [SPEAKER_09]: about our moral beliefs and we should be humble when we enter moral debates with other people we

[01:29:58] [SPEAKER_09]: should recognize the contingency of our beliefs and the way in which that gives us reason to

[01:30:07] [SPEAKER_09]: doubt their truth or doubt whether they're justified in comparison to the people we're debating with

[01:30:15] [SPEAKER_09]: he doesn't really say that in the paper though like he kind of you would get from the paper that

[01:30:25] [SPEAKER_09]: just act like you believe it's true you know right embrace your chocolate ice cream embrace

[01:30:31] [SPEAKER_09]: your chocolate ice cream now it's what's funny is knowing George he is he has a lot of humility

[01:30:37] [SPEAKER_09]: as a person when he enters these debates like yeah I have moral disagreements with him and

[01:30:45] [SPEAKER_09]: he's one of the most productive people to have moral disagreements because he really does so I

[01:30:49] [SPEAKER_09]: think he has internal maybe he's internalized it so much that he doesn't think it needs to be

[01:30:54] [SPEAKER_09]: said in the paper but I think it definitely is the conclusion that you would naturally draw

[01:30:59] [SPEAKER_01]: from what he's arguing yeah and you know like to bring it back to our discussion say of Lucy K for

[01:31:05] [SPEAKER_01]: instance like what I'm what I don't think follows from this is that you would fail to condemn say

[01:31:12] [SPEAKER_01]: the initial actions of Lucy K they got in trouble I actually don't think that's what's going on

[01:31:16] [SPEAKER_01]: at all right so I think that it's it would be a failure it would be wrong to say that what

[01:31:20] [SPEAKER_01]: this leads us to is an inability to defend any moral claim and I think that one of the

[01:31:26] [SPEAKER_01]: problems is that you know the the term moral and all that it means encompasses so many different

[01:31:33] [SPEAKER_01]: beliefs but some of those beliefs actually pass the test of widespread agreement and I think

[01:31:38] [SPEAKER_01]: most people would think that let's not make it about Lucy K but just like a something like rape

[01:31:44] [SPEAKER_01]: that's just wrong what's that debate is what to do about it that's a more complicated issue

[01:31:50] [SPEAKER_01]: like the role of forgiveness or the role of justice those are the ones that there might be

[01:31:55] [SPEAKER_01]: less agreement about and those are the ones that we should be more humble about I don't need to be

[01:31:59] [SPEAKER_09]: humble about murder for instance right you know but I and so but this is exactly what we're often

[01:32:05] [SPEAKER_09]: not humble about one of the things that made me want to talk about Louie CK was seeing something on

[01:32:11] [SPEAKER_09]: Vox that said like what men don't get about the Louie CK thing so right there you're just

[01:32:18] [SPEAKER_09]: making it about and it was by a guy too which makes it that kind of extra insufferable like what

[01:32:26] [SPEAKER_09]: meant like this guy has figured it out but other men just don't get it the implication there is

[01:32:32] [SPEAKER_09]: there isn't room for reasonable disagreement on this and on us on an issue like that you know

[01:32:38] [SPEAKER_09]: the timing of him doing a set at the comedy cellar to not take a more humble attitude just seems

[01:32:51] [SPEAKER_09]: not only counterproductive but also just that level of just self deception about how obviously right

[01:32:59] [SPEAKER_01]: you are well yeah and I think that there is sometimes a little hand waving because you

[01:33:04] [SPEAKER_01]: you start and by the way I think we're just particularly sensitive to the left-leaning

[01:33:11] [SPEAKER_01]: claims of certainty because those are people we listen to follow but you know I was on

[01:33:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I was following a Twitter debate about this controversy in comic books that's just ridiculous

[01:33:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and it just happened upon a feed where it was just a bunch of like really really really harsh

[01:33:30] [SPEAKER_01]: misogynists and whatever who are just like no we're right like you're just dumb too

[01:33:35] [SPEAKER_09]: and of course we're always going to be harder on the people that yeah that we're exposed to

[01:33:40] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah it's but I think that this gets to the heart of it there's a little bit of a bait and switch

[01:33:47] [SPEAKER_01]: when you there is a thing that we should have widespread agreement about which is what he did

[01:33:51] [SPEAKER_01]: was wrong and you talking about the consequences in a nuanced way indicates to me that you just

[01:33:58] [SPEAKER_01]: don't get that it's wrong and that's not in fact what's going on I think that by moralizing

[01:34:04] [SPEAKER_01]: like by by treating some of the things that for which there is nuance and widespread disagreement

[01:34:10] [SPEAKER_01]: about facts and about values by treating them the same way in which we treat things for which

[01:34:17] [SPEAKER_01]: there is widespread agreement by like by lumping them all together as moral claims and saying

[01:34:22] [SPEAKER_01]: there is a truth or a falsity to it like you don't you don't you wouldn't think that murder

[01:34:25] [SPEAKER_01]: is okay you wouldn't think the rape is okay how can you think that luicy k performing is okay

[01:34:30] [SPEAKER_01]: there is where it's like no like we've made it a sort of a category mistake by calling these all

[01:34:36] [SPEAKER_01]: moral claims some of them are some of them just have the property of widespread endorsement

[01:34:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and most most societies throughout most of history have agreed that certain things are just wrong

[01:34:49] [SPEAKER_01]: there are some things that are just too fucking complicated that you have to really work out as

[01:34:53] [SPEAKER_09]: people living in a society but I guess so my point is when there is a case like this where there's

[01:35:01] [SPEAKER_09]: widespread disagreement and yet you still have a strong opinion about it what we're not good at

[01:35:09] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know if we ever were but we're certainly not today it seems like is acknowledging that

[01:35:18] [SPEAKER_09]: we that people who disagree with us are not obviously wrong or immoral and that as strongly

[01:35:28] [SPEAKER_09]: as we feel about it it's the title of the paper says we could be wrong we really could be wrong

[01:35:36] [SPEAKER_09]: like I think for those kinds of debates and it's precisely the ones where there's widespread

[01:35:42] [SPEAKER_09]: disagreements because it really just doesn't cause it's not a problem when there's why

[01:35:46] [SPEAKER_09]: if we all agree then whether we're right or wrong doesn't matter because we're gonna do it

[01:35:52] [SPEAKER_09]: but when we don't agree that that that level of humility hopefully could allow for respectful

[01:36:01] [SPEAKER_09]: debate and progress between two sides coming to understand each other so let me ask you this

[01:36:08] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe as a way of wrapping up when you responded to that tweet you said this is bullshit

[01:36:15] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah were were you intending to uh indicate a moral claim with certainty

[01:36:22] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah so one thing a takeaway is people need to show more humility and then they'll realize

[01:36:28] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm right about Serena and Louis E. K. I fear that that's the way that these arguments could be

[01:36:35] [SPEAKER_01]: used like you should be humbled at your beliefs about the thing that and then know

[01:36:38] [SPEAKER_09]: and that your humility will illuminate the obvious truth of what I'm saying

[01:36:46] [SPEAKER_09]: so okay why did I do it I think I did it it was football first NFL Sunday I'd had a few drinks

[01:36:54] [SPEAKER_09]: this had been really bothering me this has been bugging me no I mean why you did it I mean did

[01:36:58] [SPEAKER_01]: you really have certainty in your moral claim well it was more of an empirical claim

[01:37:03] [SPEAKER_09]: that I was right yeah so it wasn't a moral claim

[01:37:07] [SPEAKER_01]: but which gets us to this I think there's a bait and switch about what about like

[01:37:11] [SPEAKER_01]: well you're making a moral claim even though you know it was an empirical statement that there

[01:37:16] [SPEAKER_09]: was a double standard in the fans media response to Serena versus uh macro and Connors but you're

[01:37:23] [SPEAKER_09]: right that it was a morally like I you know you're sending but that's what's so fucked up

[01:37:31] [SPEAKER_09]: about discourse like just a basic factual disagreement you're sending out moral signals like that's

[01:37:37] [SPEAKER_01]: not yeah no that's the heart of what's wrong with it that's that's the heart

[01:37:42] [SPEAKER_01]: you know it's almost like they're not to be moral discourse in that setting

[01:37:46] [SPEAKER_09]: in Twitter on Twitter yeah it's almost ice cream flavors it's just it should all just

[01:37:53] [SPEAKER_01]: be about ice cream flavors and you know there was a time where people would tweet out like

[01:37:57] [SPEAKER_09]: they're like what they had for lunch and that was the joke about Twitter those were the days yeah

[01:38:02] [SPEAKER_09]: now it's like uh it's like I'm getting doxed in my life threatened remember when we used to tweet

[01:38:09] [SPEAKER_09]: about breakfast um yeah I still I maintain that death threats like aren't really death threats

[01:38:17] [SPEAKER_01]: there's no threat of death um I I have no well I do have an opinion on that you're not saying

[01:38:25] [SPEAKER_01]: that it's inconceivable that somebody could issue a real death threat because I can see why

[01:38:29] [SPEAKER_09]: no but I'm saying that uh empirically empirically that those things are they're not actually about

[01:38:36] [SPEAKER_01]: going to kill you right but but nonetheless they are threatening and so you might just think that

[01:38:42] [SPEAKER_09]: it's a level of threatening that I don't accept but you know like uh well this is this is a

[01:38:50] [SPEAKER_09]: totally different issue so we're not gonna this is gonna get cut out but like there is this

[01:38:54] [SPEAKER_09]: escalation of what counts as a threat and what counts as threats to your safety and although I

[01:39:00] [SPEAKER_01]: really do feel like you would be like you would be seeing red if somebody tweeted out a death

[01:39:07] [SPEAKER_01]: threat to your daughter totally yeah well kind of somebody did the first amazon review yeah right

[01:39:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and I don't so I don't think that you need to empirically believe that there's a connection

[01:39:18] [SPEAKER_01]: between you getting killed but no no no I'm just saying that people like this is something

[01:39:24] [SPEAKER_09]: that my Ben Shapiro followers know more about than I do but like this idea that people start to use the

[01:39:32] [SPEAKER_09]: term violence and safety in ways that sort of dilute what those words mean to a point yeah it's hard

[01:39:39] [SPEAKER_01]: to well you know yeah and again this becomes this this sort of black or white issue where

[01:39:44] [SPEAKER_01]: where then the opposing viewpoint means you shouldn't be bothered by these by anything

[01:39:48] [SPEAKER_01]: that anybody says ever yeah yeah I think that that's like that's the wrong thing like I was

[01:39:53] [SPEAKER_01]: bothered by that amazon review like yeah I was bothered by it but um

[01:40:00] [SPEAKER_01]: are you gonna send a couple of hard pipe hitting brothers to I had a quote public

[01:40:06] [SPEAKER_09]: no just say the word and I'll beep it out all right all right well thanks

[01:40:15] [SPEAKER_09]: for those if this ever comes out which is

[01:40:19] [SPEAKER_09]: okay I would think unlikely thanks for listening to us this long and yeah join us next time on very

[01:40:31] [SPEAKER_09]: bad

[01:41:14] [SPEAKER_06]: just a very bad wizard