Episode 141: Implicit Bias

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Very Bad Wizards is a podcast with a philosopher, my dad and psychologist Dave Pizarro having

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_00]: an informal discussion about issues in science and ethics.

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Please note that the discussion contains bad words that I'm not allowed to say and knowing

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_00]: my dad some very inappropriate jokes.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_01]: If you have a happy childhood, you tend to want your child to have a happy childhood

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_01]: so you tend to want to keep the bad things out and I don't think that's good because

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_01]: you don't prepare them for the world.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to Very Bad Wizards, I'm Tamler Sommers from the University of

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Houston.

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Dave, today we're going to tackle a controversial subject involving race that many people would

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_02]: rather just avoid.

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Does this mean we're making a bid to join the intellectual dark web?

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that the criterion?

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_09]: Talking about race, I thought the criterion was having fancy pictures taken of you kind

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_09]: of in the dark.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the like, so every person who has that gets to be part of the intellectual dark

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_02]: web?

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh maybe.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_02]: That's unnecessary but I don't think it's a sufficient...

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_09]: It's not sufficient.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_09]: I think we're too liberal to be part of the intellectual dark web just appears

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_09]: to be people who on the face of it are liberal but turn conservative or maybe just

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_09]: conservatives who liberals hear about.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_02]: But who have been the victim of some overreaction by the left I think.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_09]: Except for Joe Rogan, I don't think anybody's overreacted.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_09]: It's true.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_09]: Is he part of the intellectual dark web?

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, he was part.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_09]: He had a dark picture.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So we need some conceptual analysis of the intellectual dark web clearly.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_09]: For those, why don't you say what it is?

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it was a New York Times magazine article written by Barry Weiss that had a

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_02]: lot of photos of people like Sam Harris and my stepmother, Christina Huff-Summer's

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and I guess Joe Rogan.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I chose how far I read into the essay, not that far.

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I think Dave Rubin was another one.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And who else was part of it?

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_09]: Brett Weinstein.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Brett Weinstein, the Evergreen State.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_02]: He's had quite a couple of years.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh man, that's pretty impressive.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Like what does Nicholas Christakis see Brett Weinstein and be like, hey, why the hell

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_02]: didn't this happen to me?

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, Nick Christakis actually is doing research.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_09]: You know, he's just like.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh oh.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Are you shitting on Brett Weinstein?

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know what he does.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_09]: I d-double for you people will come after you.

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't understand the metaphor anyway.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_09]: The dark web is like where you go to find Kitty porn and like, you know, drugs.

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, believe me, familiar.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that the intellectual dark web is where you go to find dangerous ideas.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_09]: Do you think that liberals use a porn mode on their browser

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_09]: whenever they navigate to Quillette?

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Is there a browser that just honestly calls it porn mode

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_02]: since there's no other reason you would ever-

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't think so, but private browsing.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_09]: That'd be hilarious if, you know, your spouse comes home

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_09]: and they're like waiting, they're sitting at the table and you're like, what?

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_09]: They're like, I checked your browser history.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_09]: What are you talking about?

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_09]: Really?

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_09]: Reason.com really?

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_09]: Like.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_02]: It was just, well, we haven't had many debates in the house recently, you know?

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_09]: We used to.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_09]: We used to.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_02]: We used to get into controversial discussions all the time.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And now we like never do.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_02]: We just same routine every night.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_09]: So excuse me if every once in a while

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_09]: I want to find something I'm not getting at home.

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_09]: Maybe race is related to IQ.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Have we talked about that in 10 years?

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm too tired.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_02]: See, this is what you always say, you're too tired, you know?

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_09]: It's a good thing these websites exist

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_09]: because we're also, I would just have to go somewhere else.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_09]: So you should be thankful I'm staying.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_09]: I would have to pay for my challenging ideas.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_09]: Oh God.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_09]: Always, always erase your internet browsing history.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, you don't need to anymore.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_09]: But not yet.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_09]: You don't need to anymore.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_09]: Although it's suspicious if it's too clean.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_09]: So you have to like toss in, you know, some.

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_02]: That's only if your wife or husband

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_02]: or girlfriend or boyfriend checks your browser.

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what you're at a point in the.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_02]: That's not happening.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I've never had trust.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, so what we are going to talk about

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_02]: is the implicit association test.

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_02]: We were going to do personality psychology,

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_02]: but we didn't have the time to do the necessary research

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_02]: for our Patreon selected episodes.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_02]: So we are doing the second place.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Vote getter, which is the IAT.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_09]: Implicit, well, implicit bias more generally, let's say.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_09]: Because of which the IAT will probably dominate

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_09]: the conversation.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_09]: But but yes, then the whole notion

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_09]: of implicit as opposed to explicit bias.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_09]: Now that's good.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_09]: That's exactly right.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Before we get there, do we have anything more to say

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_02]: about the intellectual dark web?

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I love my stepmother.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm glad she's getting some attention.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't read the whole article of those.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_02]: People say it was more nuanced than what you might think

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_02]: of an article like that if you hear about it.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know if that's true or not,

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_02]: but I hope that it is.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_09]: My my only feelings are

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_09]: that the name is Courtney.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it is a little self congratulatory

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_02]: in a somewhat cringy kind of way.

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_09]: But yeah, you know, gives me the corny chills.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_09]: It's like that's the emotion I like to call.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and also the thing that I don't like about it is

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't like when people who have fairly

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_02]: mainstream views that are being celebrated

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_02]: by a large percentage of the population,

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, it has this kind of like we're mavericks

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of feel to it.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, Jordan Peterson was one of them.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Jordan Peterson, right.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that, you know, maybe they

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: are more willing to go against the grain on certain issues

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_02]: than other people.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, Sam Harris is probably more willing to go against

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_02]: the grain than certain people on on the left on certain issues.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think it would, I don't know.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't know if it's fair.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't strike.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_02]: It strikes me that these aren't people with revolutionary

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_02]: or radical ideas.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I mean, like, you know, like on that list

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_09]: are people with arguably the top podcast in the nation.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_09]: One of the bestselling books, if not the bestselling

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_09]: book of the year.

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_09]: It's a little hard to put them in.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_02]: His 12 rules.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_02]: But this is why maybe the article may address

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_02]: the complexity of that.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's really just the name that we would be

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_02]: complaining about.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_09]: That's why that's why it was my only comment.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_09]: I really have no nothing else to say.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_02]: But it would save your angry tweets and emails.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_09]: I think they could just, I think that you need to have

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_09]: a fancy picture in the dark.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_09]: And you have to believe that the gender wage gap isn't

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_09]: nearly as big as people say it is.

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_09]: Those two beliefs, I think capture everybody on that list.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: That's probably true.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I saw that you well just got online for Skype.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Either he's angling to come on again or he's about

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_02]: to record one of his podcast.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he doesn't need us.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_02]: He doesn't need us.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_02]: They're drinking kind of early.

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_02]: They're drinking their big two beers.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Whoa.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I can't believe it.

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_02]: They're actually having two beers on their podcast.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_09]: We have at least four drugs in my system now, you know,

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_09]: but I don't title my podcast, you know,

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_09]: blow Adderall and antidepressants.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Speaking of which, I speaking of podcasts where people

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_02]: drink and talk about how they drink and make that

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_02]: sort of central part of promoting the podcast.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_02]: My stepmother, member of the Intellectual Dark Web,

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_02]: has a podcast called The Femm Splainers.

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And that is a good title, I think.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_02]: That is a good title.

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_02]: The Femm Splainers with Danielle Crittenden,

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_02]: who is one of her very good friends out in Washington, D.C.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and someone I like a lot too.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_02]: She is also the wife of David Frum.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_09]: And are they drinking?

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_09]: They're drinking on their podcast?

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_02]: They have cocktails though.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And I may go on their podcast at some point.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, you know, I think that a lot of people

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_09]: really look forward to your holiday podcast.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_02]: With Christina, yeah, absolutely.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And it is a, she's a good person to have to get

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_02]: so that people who have a caricatured view

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_02]: of her positions can get a more nuanced view

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_02]: of her position.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_09]: Right.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Even you, even you with your SJW curious tendencies.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So we thought before we get to the implicit bias topic

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_02]: in the main segment, we thought we would list

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_02]: some of the things that we have enjoyed

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_02]: or at least a couple of the things

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_02]: that we have enjoyed recently

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_02]: that we've been watching.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_02]: People always tweet us and email us

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and ask us if we've seen this or that.

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Here is a couple of things that we've been watching

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and that we recommend.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Dave, you want to start?

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I'm just going to, you know, I love watching

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_09]: sort of just having my iPad on, watching TV

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_09]: sort of in the background.

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_09]: And there's a few Amazon Prime video shows

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_09]: that I really have enjoyed.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_09]: The first is Sneaky Pete, which is a great premise.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_09]: Giovanni Robisi plays an ex-convict

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_09]: who takes on the identity of his cellmate

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_09]: to sort of avoid the trouble that he's facing

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_09]: upon leaving prison.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_09]: And he's doing this long con.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_09]: So it's basically, I love movies and TV shows

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_09]: where con artists do cool things for cons.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_09]: And this is just a version of that.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_09]: But I think it's well acted.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_09]: The other one is Bosch, which is like a police procedural

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_09]: takes place in LA.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_09]: The lead role is played by Titus Welliver,

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_09]: who was in Deadwood.

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_09]: And I just like that guy.

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_09]: And it seems like it might be just sort of a

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_09]: boring police procedural, but I think it's

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_09]: actually really interesting.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_09]: Well done, shot in LA.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_09]: If you like LA or you've lived in LA,

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_09]: you'll recognize a lot of it.

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_09]: I think it's great.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_09]: And to end it off, there's been one season of a show

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_09]: called Goliath with Billy Bob Thornton on Amazon Prime Video

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_09]: who plays a sort of just a washed up lawyer

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_09]: who apparently was brilliant but is now an alcoholic.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_09]: Again, these things sound like tropes,

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_09]: but it's really well done.

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_09]: So apparently he was a great litigator

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_09]: but just got bored and now spends his life as an alcoholic.

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_09]: But of course something happens that brings him back

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_09]: into the world of law.

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so I have a couple of movie recommendations.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_02]: These are two movies that I've seen recently

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_02]: that really enjoyed that I think our listeners

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_02]: may not have seen.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_02]: The first is Briggsby Bear,

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_02]: which has supporting performances

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_02]: by Mark Hamill and Greg Keneer.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Those are probably the only two people you've heard of.

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I went into this having heard a podcast

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_02]: recommended to me of film people that I trust

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and I knew nothing about it

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's how I think it's best to go into it.

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's a great movie.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I think anybody that I've recommended it to

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_02]: that has seen it, has enjoyed it

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and enjoyed it way more than they thought they would.

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I just recommend checking that out.

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_02]: It's available on Amazon,

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_02]: but I think you'd have to buy it

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_02]: or you could just sign up for Stars.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's available on Stars

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_02]: if you just sign up for that,

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_02]: for a preview or something of Stars

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and then you'll be able to see it

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_02]: or one of the movie channels.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_02]: It's great.

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_02]: It's really funny and sweet

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and good and it's good to watch with your kids.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Another one that's good to watch with your kids

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_02]: that I just watched is Paper Moon.

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_09]: I haven't heard of that one either.

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a movie from the early 70s

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_02]: written and directed by Peter...

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_02]: No, sorry, not written by,

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_02]: but directed by Peter Bogdanovich

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and starring Ryan O'Neill

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and Tatum O'Neill.

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_02]: It's set in the Depression.

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_02]: It's shot in gorgeous black and white.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a beautiful movie.

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_02]: It's an absolutely stunningly beautiful movie.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's about a con man

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_02]: who comes to the funeral

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_02]: of a woman that he knew

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and clearly slept with at some point,

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_02]: leaving a now orphaned young daughter

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_02]: played by Tatum O'Neill.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I think she was shooting it

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_02]: when she was nine or 10.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_02]: She gives the most remarkable

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_02]: heartfelt, beautiful, and hard performance.

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_02]: She's like smoking in the movie

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and this is definitely from the 70s.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_02]: You couldn't have this movie right now.

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's thoroughly entertaining

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_02]: and really moving.

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_02]: If you want to see a child performance,

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_02]: the child just knocks it out of the park.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I would strongly recommend Paper Moon.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_02]: The thing that I've been watching on TV,

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_02]: this is the show that I've been watching

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_02]: with my daughter and my wife.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_02]: My wife and I have seen it

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_02]: multiple times.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think once a child,

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_02]: my daughter's just turned 14.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_02]: She was definitely ready to see the wire

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and we've watched the first three seasons of the wire

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and she loves it

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and is very moved by it,

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_02]: very attached to the characters.

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And so obviously I think most of our listeners

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_02]: have probably seen the wire

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_02]: but maybe some of you have children

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_02]: that you might be wary of showing

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_02]: a show like that too.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I was not surprised

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_02]: because I know Eliza has sophisticated

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_02]: viewing tastes, but I was very encouraged

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_02]: by how much she embraced the show

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and was challenged by it

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and moved by it. It's great.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm going to toss in one really quick last one.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_09]: I love card magic,

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_09]: but this is also just a documentary

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_09]: about a card magician who happens to be blind.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_09]: It's more than about that.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_09]: It's called DELT, about a guy named Richard Turner.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_09]: He just does amazing things with cards

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_09]: just by touching them.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_09]: He's actually a card sharp like he's

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_09]: trained to be able to cheat really well.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_09]: Completely blind can do all kinds of things

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_09]: with cards that most people cannot do

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_09]: with both their eyes. It's a great document.

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Alright. When we come back,

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_02]: our bid to join the Intellectual Dark Web

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_02]: will be complete as we talk about implicit bias.

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[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back to Very Bad Wizards.

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_02]: At this time we'd like to take a moment

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_02]: as we always do after the break

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_02]: to thank all the people who engage with us,

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_02]: who tweet us, who email us,

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_02]: who give us shit on Reddit and Facebook.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_02]: This is the kind of community that we love.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_02]: It's the kind of...

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_02]: It's what makes us so happy

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_02]: to keep doing the podcast

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and we really appreciate it.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_02]: We say this a lot

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_02]: but I think we have one of the highest levels

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_02]: of engagement from...

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Not our engagement but your engagement.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_02]: We hope that continues

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and we hope you keep getting in touch with us.

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_02]: You can email us at VeryBadWizards at gmail.com

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Tweet us at tamler, at peas,

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[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_02]: You can go to our Reddit page.

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[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_02]: It does help to get people

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_02]: who might not be aware of us to see it.

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[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_02]: There's usually a good conversation of each episode.

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you'd like to support us in more tangible ways

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[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Our supporters, we save us a lot but we mean it a lot

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_02]: and we just posted for our $2 and up supporters

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_02]: a lengthy...

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, it was supposed to be a 20-minute conversation.

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_02]: It was supposed to be a 20-minute conversation

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_02]: on the entire history of you from Black Mirror Season 1

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and it turned into about a 60-minute conversation

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_02]: that I enjoyed.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_02]: It was not edited so I didn't go back and listen to it

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_02]: but I really enjoyed it

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and I hope our patrons enjoyed it as well.

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, thank you.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_02]: All right. Let's get to implicit bias.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_09]: So as Tamler said this was the number two pick.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_09]: I actually thought it would win as a pick because of how

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_09]: salient, relevant, current the topic is.

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And how much it reflects a larger conversation

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_02]: about the politics of scientific research?

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_09]: So it reflects politics in general

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_09]: and reflects divisiveness in America

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_09]: and so I wanted to start off by maybe defining what it is

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_09]: that people mean when they say implicit bias

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_09]: because it's not always clear.

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, for sure that term is abused

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_09]: so there are some cases in which people act

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_09]: in very explicitly prejudicial ways

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_09]: but it's still referred to as implicit bias.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_09]: So I wanted to bear with me, give a little bit of history

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_09]: about why we refer to these kinds of attitudes

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_09]: or beliefs as implicit.

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_09]: And it really comes from an older literature

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_09]: in cognitive psychology where the term implicit

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_09]: was used for instance heavily in the study of memory

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_09]: and the distinction between implicit and explicit memory

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_09]: is something every intro psych student learns.

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_09]: There are things that you have conscious access to

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_09]: like what your name is, what you did

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_09]: where you went on vacation last year.

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_09]: Those things are available to your conscious memory.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_09]: They're explicit but then there are a variety of things

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_09]: that you in some way know

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_09]: but have no real ability to formulate that you know it.

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_09]: And so one really easy example of that

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_09]: is what you might call procedural memory.

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_09]: So you are able to ride a bike

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_09]: or if you learned to drive a stick shift,

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_09]: to drive a stick shift,

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_09]: you don't have really any explicit ability

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_09]: to say how you do it or what you're doing.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_09]: You just kind of know it.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_09]: There are other things,

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_09]: the other demonstrations of implicit memory

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_09]: that aren't procedural.

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_09]: So for instance you can be shown to have a memory

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_09]: that you're unable to report through a variety of procedures.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_09]: I won't get into those particular priming procedures

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_09]: but I think it's really well illustrated by an anecdote.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_09]: This might be apocryphal

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_09]: but it nonetheless is a very, very good example

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_09]: of the difference between explicit and implicit memory.

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_09]: So take Anteregrade Amnesic,

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_09]: people like the guy in Memento.

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_09]: They cannot form new long-term memories.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_09]: That is they remember about anywhere

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_09]: between 10 seconds and 2 minutes of their current life

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_09]: but as soon as that's done it's just out of there.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_09]: So you tell somebody a joke,

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_09]: you get one of these patients and you tell them a joke.

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_09]: They laugh because they've heard it for the first time

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_09]: but you know that when you come back in 5 minutes

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_09]: they won't have any memory of that joke.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_09]: At least they won't have any explicit memory of that joke.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_09]: In fact they won't have any explicit memory of you

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_09]: or who you are

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_09]: but if you keep telling them that joke

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_09]: coming back every 5 minutes,

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_09]: they laugh less.

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_09]: They laugh less and less.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_09]: So at some level they have an implicit memory

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_09]: that you can measure in this case by say laughing

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_09]: that is a reliable indicator

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_09]: that there is some form of knowledge

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_09]: that has been stored and is being accessed

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_09]: but that the person has no explicit access to.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_09]: It is very well established

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_09]: that we have these kinds of implicit memories.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_09]: There are a variety of ways

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_09]: in which you can induce an implicit memory

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_09]: in the lab and show that it has an effect.

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_09]: That basic approach,

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_09]: that division between explicit and implicit

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_09]: was sort of ported over to the study of social psychology

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_09]: and the study of attitude

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_09]: because for a long time it was known

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_09]: that if you want to study some topics

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_09]: like if you want to study racism

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_09]: for instance in America,

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_09]: let's black-white racism,

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_09]: a lot of the discussion will be around that.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_09]: It used to be that you could just ask people

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_09]: what do you think about black people?

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_09]: You could ask white people what they thought about black people

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_09]: and they would actually tell you.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_09]: Of course that stopped being an easy way

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_09]: to assess prejudice

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_09]: but there was still a belief

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_09]: that clearly there were prejudicial behaviors

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_09]: but people were unwilling to report it

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_09]: and then there was the belief that perhaps

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_09]: it was even more that people

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_09]: weren't just willing to report it

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_09]: but perhaps they didn't have access

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_09]: to some of the attitudes and beliefs

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_09]: much like you don't have access to implicit memories

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_09]: but nonetheless they reveal themselves

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_09]: in some way or another.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_09]: And so in the early 90s

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_09]: there was a big push of bringing tools

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_09]: using cognitive psychology

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_09]: over to social psychology

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_09]: and we now refer to the field

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_09]: sometimes as social cognition

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_09]: and there were a variety of methods

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_09]: that were used to try to assess

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_09]: people's implicit attitudes towards something

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_09]: and by attitude here I mean valence

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_09]: like a positive or negative attitude.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So would this be an example

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_02]: of an implicit attitude?

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's say I think

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_02]: that I harbor nothing but affectionate

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_02]: loving attitudes towards

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_02]: my brother or something like that

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_02]: but there's certain

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_02]: aspects of the way I act

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_02]: that makes it seem like I'm really angry

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_02]: at him about something

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_02]: and so if you ask me

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_02]: am I angry at my brother

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I will say no and I won't be lying

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I will genuinely believe that the answer to that question is no.

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_09]: Right, yeah that could be

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_09]: in fact there is some work on

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_09]: implicit attitudes toward close relationships

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_09]: that tries to assess just that

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_09]: and many people believe

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_09]: that we have valence attitudes towards everything

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_09]: that is at some level your mind

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_09]: is quickly categorizing things

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_09]: into I like it versus I don't like it

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_09]: even if it's very very weak

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_09]: and even if you don't notice it.

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_09]: So I just quickly flash you

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_09]: a letter from an alphabet

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_09]: that you've never seen before

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_09]: the idea is that you will have some sort of reaction

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_09]: to this you'll either like it or you won't

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_09]: you might not even notice it

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_09]: but in a task you may choose that

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_09]: so this all sort of exploded

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_09]: with the work done by

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_09]: Anthony Greenwald and Mazurin Banaji

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_09]: the University of Washington

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_09]: and Yale University respectively

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_09]: because they develop a test

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_09]: using the knowledge of how to use

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_09]: reaction time measures that they had borrowed

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_09]: from cognitive psychologists

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_09]: to try to measure valence attitudes

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_09]: with a sort of clever reaction time

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_09]: measure that could assess attitudes

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_09]: that you might not even know that you had

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_09]: and Tamler you took one of these

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_09]: because anybody can take them right now

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah yeah so it's hosted at Harvard right

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah it's called project implicit

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_09]: it's a nonprofit organization they collect data

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_09]: they basically make a whole bunch of tests

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_09]: available for anybody to take

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_09]: we'll put a link to it it's implicit

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_09]: at project implicit.org

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_09]: but that directs to implicit.harvard.edu

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_09]: and the idea is that you can sort of

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_09]: see how your attitudes

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_09]: might be toward a variety of things

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_09]: so there are tasks

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_09]: that assess your attitudes

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_09]: about obesity or age or gender

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_09]: of course race and here's the basics

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_09]: of how it works I mean it's very

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_09]: you'll get the idea if you go and take this test

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_09]: and we'll also link to a couple articles

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_09]: that explain it very well

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_09]: but the basic idea is this is a relative assessment

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_09]: so you have on one side

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_09]: you have the word good

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_09]: so that's your left side

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_09]: on the right side you have the word bad

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_09]: and now in the middle at the bottom

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_09]: a word shows up and it says joy

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_09]: your simple task is

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_09]: to categorize that as good or bad

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_09]: joy is a word most people think is a good thing

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_09]: now I'll use the race

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_09]: I.T. as an example

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_09]: now you have the word black

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_09]: and the word white

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_09]: and our face comes up

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_09]: and the face is either of a black person

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_09]: or a white person

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_09]: and you have to sort

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_09]: so if it's a black face

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they now do African Americans

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and European Americans

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah maybe but who knows

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_09]: if black people are Americans

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_09]: in those pictures

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_09]: they might be French black people

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_09]: and so but yes

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_09]: so you sort those faces

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_09]: the critical trials are the ones where

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_09]: now you are going to be asked

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_09]: to simultaneously pair faces

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_09]: into either black or white

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_09]: and words into good or bad

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_09]: so now you have a pairing

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_09]: on the left of a white face

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_09]: with the word good underneath it

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_09]: and on the right side you have a black face

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_09]: with the word bad underneath it

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_09]: and you're asked to go as quickly as you can

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_09]: black face pops up

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_09]: you hit the right button

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_09]: the word death pops up

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_09]: you hit the right button

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_09]: the word joy pops up

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_09]: you hit the left button

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_09]: so you're sorting now

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_09]: black and white

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_09]: sorry white and good on one side

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_09]: black and bad on the other side

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_09]: your reaction time is measured

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_09]: you're instructed to go as fast as you can

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_09]: in fact if you go too slow

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_09]: your data is just discarded because

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_09]: it's useless it's supposed to be

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_09]: something that you can't control easily

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_09]: and that critical moment

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_09]: is when they flip it

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_09]: sometimes it's flipped first

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_09]: because it's counterbalanced

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_09]: and now the word good

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_09]: is paired with a black face

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_09]: so now whenever the word joy comes up

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_09]: you have to click the left button

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_09]: because the word good is there

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_09]: and a black face is there

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_09]: and it's the same button that you would click

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_09]: if you saw a black face

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_09]: so now you're doing black and good

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_09]: and white and bad

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_09]: rather than black bad white good

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_09]: and there is to make it very simple

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_09]: the difference between how fast you are

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_09]: at the white good black bad

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_09]: categorization task

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_09]: and the white bad

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_09]: black good categorization task

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_09]: is roughly the measure

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_09]: that they use for assessing

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_09]: how biased you are

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_09]: or what your

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_09]: attitudes are

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and then they ask you a bunch of questions

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_02]: to measure explicit bias

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and then they I assume

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_02]: use that as a sort of subtraction

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_09]: they don't

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_09]: use that

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_09]: they're using, that doesn't go into your IAT score at all

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_09]: they're just assessing

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_09]: the degree of correlation

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_09]: between your implicit attitudes

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_09]: and your explicit

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_09]: oh okay I see

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_02]: so it would be

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_02]: even if you were just explicitly racist

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess because the task doesn't ask you to

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_02]: to make any judgments

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_02]: it just asks you to do

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_02]: like a puzzle

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_02]: where there's always a right or wrong answer

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_02]: objectively right or wrong answer

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_02]: that will always count as implicit bias

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_02]: even if you also report explicitly racist attitudes

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_09]: that's right

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_09]: so you could be high on explicit bias

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_09]: in this case

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_09]: you could be

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_09]: let's just use the

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_09]: direction that would be most familiar

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_09]: you could have negative

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_09]: associations with black faces

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_09]: so you have a high score

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_09]: and you might be explicitly

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_09]: prejudiced

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_09]: or you could be

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_09]: low

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_09]: on explicit prejudice

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_09]: but high on the implicit test

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_09]: it would be really weird if you were very

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_09]: low on the implicit test

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_09]: and high on the explicit test

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_09]: sort of like a frank furtian

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_09]: sort of a second-order desire to be racist

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_09]: but you can't really get your

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_02]: well no it would be like

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_02]: who was it

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Herbert Gering

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_02]: or was it

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_02]: sort of had to force himself to

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_02]: to force himself to be cruel

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_02]: to overcome his empathy

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_02]: for Jews and try it

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_09]: so before we get into

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_09]: there are other tasks that measure

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_09]: that purport to measure implicit

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_09]: attitudes

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_09]: but I first want to talk to you, Tamler

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_09]: about

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_09]: just the notion

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_09]: that there is an implicit

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_09]: that there is a sort of

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_09]: level of attitudes that you might have

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_09]: that you don't, that you're not aware of

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_02]: do I find that plausible

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it sounds very plausible

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I would be surprised if

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_02]: you know we're aware of

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_02]: well I'd be surprised

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_02]: if there weren't a lot of attitudes

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_02]: that we have or the valence of which

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_02]: we are not

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_02]: either fully aware of or even

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_02]: aware of

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_02]: at any level

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_09]: right so it could be that you are

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_09]: really biased against

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_09]: pregnant women and

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_09]: when you get on a bus and there's pregnant women

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_09]: you don't look in her direction

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_09]: and you sort of ignore her when she speaks

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_09]: you don't really realize

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_09]: that this is the case, you have no idea

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_09]: why this would be

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_09]: the case you deny it

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_09]: but nonetheless it's sort of

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_09]: is influencing

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_09]: some aspect of your behavior

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_02]: so is that, this is my first question

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_02]: so

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_02]: for it to be

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_02]: an implicit attitude

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_02]: does it have to

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_02]: also influence

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_02]: behavior in some way

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_09]: that's a really good question

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_09]: and depending on who

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_09]: you ask

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_09]: the answer might be different

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_09]: so my answer is not

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_09]: necessarily

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_09]: but this takes the wind out of the

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_09]: sail of

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_09]: the sails of people who want to use these

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_09]: kinds of assessments as a way

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_09]: to combat behavior

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_09]: but I think that there are

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_09]: most likely

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_09]: that it's very plausible that there are

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_09]: attitudes that would never

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_09]: be expressed

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_09]: for a variety of reasons

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_09]: so you might harbor

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_09]: negative

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_09]: attitudes toward young black men

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_09]: but never

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_09]: for either societal

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_09]: constraints or because

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_09]: you don't believe that you should endorse these

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_09]: you never let yourself actually

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_09]: behave in a way

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_09]: that expresses

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_09]: prejudice so some people would claim

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_09]: well you just don't know

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_09]: that you are in fact expressing

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_09]: behavior but I don't think

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_09]: conceptually the link has to be

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_09]: the link only

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_09]: has to be that at the

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_09]: most minimal level if it is

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_09]: an attitude you should be able to

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_09]: see it in some degree

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_09]: but you can treat the IIT

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_09]: as a behavior of

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_02]: in some ways it's an unimportant

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_02]: conceptual

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_02]: distinction because

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_02]: the only way

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_02]: that this test matters

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_02]: is I think

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_02]: if it is tied to behavior

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_02]: in some way because

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_02]: if it turns out that

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_02]: people who are

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_02]: implicitly biased

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_02]: do not in any way

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_02]: behave in ways that

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_02]: are biased or

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_02]: prejudiced then

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_02]: it just wouldn't be that interesting

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_09]: and you might not even call it

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_09]: but you might say it's a wrong word

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_09]: to use right that

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_09]: bias is the wrong word

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_02]: that returns to the concept

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess the point is then it becomes

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_02]: a terminological issue

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_02]: but what makes it

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_02]: important what would make it have

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_02]: real world implications like we need

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_02]: diversity training and

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_02]: seminars to combat this

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_02]: is if it affected

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_02]: people's behavior

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_09]: I think that's right

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_09]: now what behaviors

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_09]: you think are important

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_09]: turns out to be when

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_09]: the scholars disagree

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_09]: about the nature of the

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_09]: evidence about whether this

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_09]: test predicts behavior

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_09]: they often disagree

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_09]: about whether the behavior that it has been

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_09]: shown to predict is important in any way

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_09]: so for instance

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_09]: one common task

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_09]: that has been used by social psychologists

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_09]: to assess prejudice like a behavior

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_09]: in the lab is

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_09]: that they'll have a black

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_09]: student sitting down in a chair

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_09]: and they'll have a white student

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_09]: come and they'll say just grab

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_09]: a chair and sit next to

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_09]: the person that you're going to interact

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_09]: with and they measure the distance

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_09]: to which the person puts the chair

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_09]: right so

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_09]: critics might say well this is a stupid measure

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_09]: but if the I.T.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_09]: predicts it which I believe it does

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_09]: to some degree

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_09]: they would say well look like

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_09]: this is not going to measure

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_09]: flag burning because people

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_09]: you know like this is not

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_09]: these are the kinds of things

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_09]: that actually

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_09]: do matter in everyday life like

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_09]: you know looking

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_09]: at a black person suspiciously when they walk into

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_09]: your store or acting

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_09]: nervous when you're walking you know crossing

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_09]: the street those are the

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_09]: kinds of behaviors that

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_09]: that actually

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_09]: they're not trivial they might be

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_09]: they pale in comparison

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_09]: to you know voting

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_09]: for Trump

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_09]: to you know wanting segregation

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_09]: to be brought back to the United States

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_09]: but so some of the argument

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_02]: some of the argument is about how much

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_02]: those matters. So and I know

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_02]: there's some controversy of how reliably

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_02]: it even predicts those

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_02]: kinds of behaviors certainly for individuals

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_02]: in fact

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_02]: my sense from reading the stuff

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_02]: that you gave me was

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_02]: it didn't predict

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_02]: for individuals

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_02]: well so yeah. But it could predict for groups

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_09]: so this is

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_09]: also up for

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_09]: debate and we'll put a link to

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_09]: Jesse Single who

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_09]: is a great science

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_09]: journalist has written a couple of pieces

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_09]: he wrote a very long piece in

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_09]: in January

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_09]: on the nature

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_09]: of this test and whether it predicts

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_09]: anything and he sort of

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_09]: reviewed the research and concluded

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_09]: that in fact it suffers from so many

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_09]: problems and it doesn't predict

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_09]: behavior. My reading of the

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_09]: research is different than his

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_09]: so I think that he comes

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_09]: down too hard

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_09]: on on the task in

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_09]: terms of whether it can predict behavior

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_09]: and it it really

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_09]: turns on some some academic

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_09]: debates that we won't get into but like

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_09]: what kinds of things that you

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_09]: count as predicting behavior

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_09]: what you include

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_09]: when you do a meta analysis which is just

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_09]: an analysis of all the studies

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_09]: that you can find that have tried to find a link

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_09]: and certainly there are

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_09]: moderators

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_09]: such that for some things

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_09]: it's a better predictor of behavior than

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_09]: for other things

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_09]: but nonetheless even the people

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_09]: who are the staunchest defenders that it predicts

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_09]: behavior as measured by

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_09]: anything

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_09]: admit that it is

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_09]: a weak predictor of behavior

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_09]: effect sizes which is sort of

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_09]: a standard statistical way of describing

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_09]: the relationship between two variables

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_09]: they're low

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_09]: they're pretty low so

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_09]: when you want to predict whether

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_09]: or not somebody who

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_09]: scores biased on the

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_09]: IIT

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_09]: is going to engage in any

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_09]: specific prejudicial behavior

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_09]: you don't have a great shot

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_09]: right you are more

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_09]: likely to be wrong

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_09]: than people might think

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_09]: and that's what gets lost

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_09]: in the discussion about this stuff

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_09]: right this is not a

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_09]: sort of golden

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_09]: road to

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_09]: the real causes of behavior

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_09]: and there are a lot of reasons

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_09]: why that might be the case

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_09]: usually these studies

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_09]: use a limited number of measures

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_09]: the test itself

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_09]: suffers from some

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_09]: methodological problems

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_09]: and you wouldn't expect the

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_09]: relationship to be too high

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_09]: in an ideal world you would have multiple

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_09]: tests of an implicit attitude

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_09]: and you would assess

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_09]: prejudicial behavior over a long

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_09]: period of time and see

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_09]: in multiple ways and see

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_09]: whether or not you actually get predicted power

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_09]: but it is

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_09]: really difficult to do that so we often

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_09]: use just one measure

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_09]: to assess implicit attitudes

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_09]: and we often use one or two measures

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_09]: of behavior because we are constrained

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_09]: in the lab

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and it seems like having read about

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_02]: the controversy surrounding

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_02]: this a lot of the controversy

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_02]: also

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_02]: revolves around

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_02]: what has been said about

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_02]: the results including

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_02]: by the authors

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and the kinds

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_02]: of policies that it

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_02]: has led to people

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_02]: implementing

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_02]: the depressing part of this

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_02]: controversy and it is a depressing

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_02]: controversy I got depressed as I was

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_02]: reading deep into it

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_02]: today

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_02]: seems to be

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_02]: not on the very technical nature

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_02]: of the debates about whether it predicts

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_02]: behavior at the individual level

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_02]: or the group level

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and to what extent and to what the

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_02]: degree and what the effect sizes were

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and what the reliability of the test is

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_02]: what the validity of the test is

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_02]: it is

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_02]: more what people

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_02]: have said that it shows

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_02]: contrasted with what it actually shows

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_09]: with what it actually shows yeah

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_09]: so I'll give a little sort of

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_09]: history

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_09]: of this because I was

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_09]: a graduate student at Yale

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_09]: when Mazrin Banaji

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_09]: had a very, very active lab

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_09]: and the

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_09]: IIT the implicit association test

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_09]: that we just described was being

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_09]: sort of their lab

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_09]: was conducting a ton, a ton

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_09]: of studies looking at

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_09]: the IIT. There was

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_09]: just this huge

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_09]: explosion of research

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_09]: using the IIT because

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_09]: it seemed like such an easy way

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_09]: to get at

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_09]: people's attitudes and the idea

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_09]: was

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_09]: the thinking was that this was a

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_09]: way to tap into the

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_09]: unconscious mind and so their original

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_09]: theorizing was that

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_09]: these were slow forming

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_09]: attitudes that were learned over a long

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_09]: period of time that would be very hard to change

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_09]: and so

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_09]: you're raised in the United States

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_09]: you sort of at

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_09]: some level

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_09]: beyond your own

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_09]: awareness you're constantly

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_09]: faced with stereotypical

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_09]: representations of black

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_09]: men and over time

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_09]: that will show up

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_09]: in the IIT

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_09]: and there was a lot of excitement

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_09]: about it

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_09]: a ton of studies were run

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_09]: it really exploded

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_09]: when Malcolm Gladwell

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_09]: talked about it

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_09]: like most things in social psychology

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_09]: so it gained

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_09]: a lot of explosion and you're right

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_09]: that the controversy has been really around

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_09]: here is one layer that is

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_09]: depressing

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_09]: one interpretation of what this is

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_09]: measuring

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_09]: is simple associations it's called

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_09]: the implicit associations test so

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_09]: if you pair A and B enough times

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_09]: you will probably

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_09]: score

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_09]: on this test you will demonstrate

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_09]: that A and B

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_09]: are associated with you

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_09]: so black and bad or white and good

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_09]: whether or not

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_09]: that is reflecting valence

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_09]: that you have an attitude about this

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_09]: is up for debate it could just be

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_09]: simple associations

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_09]: without valence

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_02]: right so that you've seen a lot of

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_02]: movies where the black person

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_02]: has been the bad guy

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_02]: exactly and so

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_09]: but people

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_09]: you know

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_09]: sociopsychologists included like to say

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_09]: that this is

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_09]: a measure of implicit

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_09]: bias so a valence

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_09]: like you literally if you score low

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_09]: on or if you

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_09]: score such that you

[00:49:01] [SPEAKER_09]: reflect a strong

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_09]: association between black and bad in

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_09]: comparison to the

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_09]: white and good that you are biased

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_09]: right that it is

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_09]: racism it's not your everyday racism

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_09]: but it is nonetheless racism

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_02]: but it would have even that right

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean it has to

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_02]: tie to behavior in some way

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_02]: even if it's a small way

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_02]: even if it's a

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_02]: extra suspicious look

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_02]: or even to people that you see

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_02]: in your store

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_02]: or people who you know

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_02]: walk on the street

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_02]: or people that you interact with at work

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_02]: for it to be anything more

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_02]: than just a measure

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_02]: of the kind of

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_02]: of the kind of audio

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_02]: visual media you were exposed to

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_02]: as a child it needs

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_02]: to have some sort of predictive effect

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_02]: on behavior. Yeah

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_09]: the thing is well one

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_09]: it's hard

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_09]: to actually measure that stuff

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_09]: right so

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_09]: even though there's been an explosion

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_09]: of research on this there is surprisingly

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_09]: little good research

[00:50:08] [SPEAKER_09]: looking at

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_09]: at people's

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_09]: prejudicial actions over time

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_09]: in a way that you would really want

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_09]: to if you were testing

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_09]: the statistical relationship between these two

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_09]: and so it remains unclear

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_09]: there is a lot of evidence that there is

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_09]: there is some effect on behavior

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_09]: one of the

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_09]: most compelling cases that's mentioned

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_09]: even by Jesse Single in his article

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_09]: is

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_09]: work done by a friend of mine

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_09]: Matthew Nock who is a professor

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_09]: clinical psychology at Harvard

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_09]: and who won the MacArthur Genius Award

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_09]: a couple years ago

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_09]: he and Mazrin Benaji

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_09]: who is also my friend

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_09]: and she's a wonderful wonderful

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_09]: person. She does not come off well

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_02]: in Jesse Single's

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_02]: in one of his articles.

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_09]: So I should say

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_09]: the IT people, Mazrin Benaji, Brian Nocic

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_09]: these are personal

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_09]: close friends of mine as is Matt Nock

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_09]: so this may

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_09]: be one reason to take my

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_09]: sort of discount

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_09]: my positivity here but I think

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_09]: so research by Matt Nock

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_09]: and Mazrin Benaji show that implicit

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_09]: that an implicit

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_09]: associations test

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_09]: measuring

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_09]: self harm, self injury

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_09]: so associations between

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_09]: yourself and self

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_09]: injury

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_09]: are actually very very powerful predictors

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_09]: of whether or not somebody is going to

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_09]: injure themselves or attempt

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_09]: suicide.

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_09]: It's a striking finding.

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_09]: That at least adds some nuance

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_09]: that

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_09]: there's one question about, there are questions

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_09]: about the test itself

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_09]: you know one of the problems is it's

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_09]: always a relative measure

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_09]: it's the score of black versus white

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_09]: there are

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_09]: test retest reliability

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_09]: issues. There are all kinds of

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_09]: issues that Jesse

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_09]: Single raises about the test itself

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_09]: but there is no reason

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_09]: to think that

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_09]: it would be equally good

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_09]: at predicting behavior across all

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_09]: domains so it could be

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_09]: that it predicts

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_09]: for instance in this self injurious and

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_09]: suicidal ideation

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_09]: or suicidal attempts paper

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_09]: it clearly predicts that behavior

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_09]: and there is evidence that the degree

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_09]: to which you're implicit in your explicit

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_09]: beliefs converge

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_09]: that's the best predictor behavior

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_09]: so if you both score

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_09]: anti-black

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_09]: and you kind of say

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah I kind of don't like black people

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_09]: the implicit test

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_09]: predicts above and beyond

[00:52:40] [SPEAKER_09]: just the explicit test

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_09]: right so

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_09]: So can I

[00:52:45] [SPEAKER_02]: are you done with that thought?

[00:52:47] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, so the variety of behaviors

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_09]: is all I was saying will affect

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_09]: the relationship between

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_09]: the task and behavior

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_02]: what

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_02]: the implications of what I'm about to say

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_02]: are so I'm just going

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_02]: to put it out there

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_02]: so my result

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I can't believe I've held off

[00:53:10] [SPEAKER_02]: reporting it this long

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_02]: showed that

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_02]: there's no, I have no

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_02]: automatic preference between African Americans

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and European Americans

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_02]: now

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_02]: let's say that's reliable in fact

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I did take this about 8 years ago

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and it wasn't that

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_02]: it showed that I had

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_02]: implicitly racist attitudes

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, me too

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and now when I take it

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_02]: it shows this

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_02]: let's say that the reason for

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_02]: this, the reason for my good

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_02]: score now is

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_02]: what I think is plausible

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I've lived in Houston

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_02]: for 10 years, I interact with black people

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_02]: all the time

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_02]: my child's teachers are black

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_02]: the people I work with in the university

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_02]: are black

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and I have overwhelmingly

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_02]: positive interactions with black people

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's been going on for

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_02]: the last 8 or 9 years

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_02]: so let's say

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_02]: that can explain why I score better

[00:54:12] [SPEAKER_02]: on this now than when I had only lived

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_02]: in Houston for 2 years

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_02]: before that I'd lived in one of the

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_02]: whitest places you could possibly live

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Morris, Minnesota where my daughter

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_02]: was the black kid because

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_02]: she had slightly swarther skin

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_02]: than the blonde Swedish

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Lutherans that mostly

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_02]: populate that area

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_09]: Didn't everybody knew she was a Jew?

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_02]: But they hated her more

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_02]: because she was black

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and let's further

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_02]: say that this

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_02]: result would generalize

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_02]: to a lot of the people

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_02]: that the more you interact

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_02]: it's kind of a contact hypothesis idea

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_02]: the more you interact with people

[00:54:51] [SPEAKER_02]: the less some of your earlier

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_02]: implicit attitudes that might have been

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_02]: cemented by watching a lot of

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_02]: TV and movies from

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_02]: the time that we grew up

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_02]: those things start getting

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_02]: overridden by just

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_02]: your day to day interaction

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and your life

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_02]: so let's say all those things are true

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess here's my question

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_02]: does that, would that mean

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and let's say my explicit attitudes

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_02]: are not racist

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_02]: it didn't seem like it measured

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_09]: it asked a bunch of questions

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I was giving

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_02]: sincerely non-racist

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_02]: but I knew

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_02]: which ones were racist

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_09]: a lot of those are crazy, would you be bothered

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_09]: if black people moved into your neighborhood

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_02]: or came over

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_02]: for dinner, schools

[00:55:39] [SPEAKER_02]: should be segregated

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_02]: old timey question

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_02]: so I just doubt that there

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_02]: segregationists who take this test

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe they get drunk

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_02]: and they want to see how high they can score

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_02]: but

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I have two questions

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_02]: does this make me less racist than somebody

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_02]: who maybe lives

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_02]: has all those sort of right attitudes

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_02]: but lives

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_02]: in a less diverse place

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and hasn't had the kind of day to day interaction

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_02]: that would allow them to score

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_02]: better on a test like this

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and to that question

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I might say yes

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_02]: in a very qualified way

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_02]: that I'm less likely maybe to have

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_02]: a sort of those really

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I might be less likely to not sit near

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_02]: a black person

[00:56:25] [SPEAKER_02]: than some of those behavioral measures

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_02]: but then here's the other question

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and I think this is what

[00:56:32] [SPEAKER_02]: depressed me and bugged me

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_02]: so let's say that this generalize

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_02]: to a lot of people in diversities

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_02]: like Houston

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_02]: would that mean that

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_02]: that black people

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_02]: face less discrimination in Houston

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_02]: because the people are less racist

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_02]: in this way

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and there I

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_02]: my suspicion

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_02]: is the answer to that question

[00:56:55] [SPEAKER_02]: is definitely not

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_02]: or at least not necessarily

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_02]: because so many

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_02]: of the deep

[00:57:03] [SPEAKER_02]: problems with discrimination

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and race are structural

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and those the difference

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_02]: in the kind of schools that

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of poor black people could go

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_02]: compared to a lot of white people

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_02]: the difference in

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_02]: criminal justice, the difference

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_02]: in housing policies

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_02]: all those kinds of issues

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_02]: so that even if

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_02]: the on average the population

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_02]: is less racist

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_02]: in this way

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_02]: it wouldn't

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_02]: be a consolation

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_02]: or it wouldn't mean

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_02]: it wouldn't have

[00:57:37] [SPEAKER_02]: what I think is

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_02]: the real issue how much discrimination

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_02]: a black person is

[00:57:43] [SPEAKER_02]: likely to face based

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_02]: on where they live

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_02]: the kind of environment they come from

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and I think that's

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_02]: the depressing part for me is

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_02]: that in all the controversy

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_02]: about is centered around

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_02]: something that seems like

[00:58:01] [SPEAKER_02]: it's the smallest little

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_02]: tip in the iceberg

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_02]: about what the real issue

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_02]: with racism

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_02]: is it just the tip?

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_02]: just the tip

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and addressing

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_02]: implicit bias in the ways that

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_02]: some of the people are addressing it

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_02]: with

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_02]: diversity seminars

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah let's get there

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_02]: it's like a bandaid

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_02]: on like a little

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Mickey Mouse Bandaid on like a gut shot

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_02]: or something like that it just

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_02]: it doesn't it's not

[00:58:35] [SPEAKER_02]: the issue and yet

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_02]: so much of the discussion

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_02]: revolves around it

[00:58:42] [SPEAKER_02]: right

[00:58:43] [SPEAKER_09]: so I totally agree with you

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't well let me

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_09]: actually give my answer

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_09]: to your questions even though

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_09]: they might have been just rhetorical

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_09]: the person who

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_09]: who does not have

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_09]: the opportunity to come into

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_09]: to have positive contact

[00:59:01] [SPEAKER_09]: with black people

[00:59:02] [SPEAKER_09]: and they score low they score high

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_09]: on the implicit attitude test

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_09]: are they more racist? I think the

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_09]: only answer there is

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_09]: if we had good measures

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_09]: of racist behavior

[00:59:15] [SPEAKER_09]: whether they include it

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_09]: you know job hiring

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_09]: or crossing the street

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_09]: when a black person is coming their way

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_09]: or getting upset

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_09]: if their daughter's dating a black man

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_09]: all of those things I think

[00:59:29] [SPEAKER_09]: would be

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_09]: far more important than the score

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_09]: on the implicit association

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_09]: task now I do think

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_09]: that their score

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_09]: would be higher and that this would

[00:59:41] [SPEAKER_09]: be related to behavior if we could measure

[00:59:43] [SPEAKER_09]: it if that behavior

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_09]: in the right way

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_09]: but it's an open question

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_09]: still I think in this country

[00:59:51] [SPEAKER_09]: if you are solidly middle

[00:59:53] [SPEAKER_09]: to upper middle class and you were raised in a completely

[00:59:55] [SPEAKER_09]: white neighborhood and you never really

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_09]: interact with black people you might be

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_09]: more likely to lock your door

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_09]: roll them up kids

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_09]: if we're taking that

[01:00:05] [SPEAKER_09]: as a measure of racism

[01:00:07] [SPEAKER_09]: then I would say

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_09]: that that would

[01:00:11] [SPEAKER_09]: be more likely to happen now whether

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_09]: that's racism or not is here's the part

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_09]: that depresses me the critics

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_09]: of the IIT

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_09]: in particular the notion of implicit bias

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_09]: in general

[01:00:23] [SPEAKER_09]: within academics

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_09]: are good scholars and they're definitely

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_09]: attacking on methodological

[01:00:29] [SPEAKER_09]: grounds and they know way more stats

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_09]: than I do and they dig into the data

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_09]: I do however

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_09]: think that there is a

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_09]: fundamental disagreement in whether

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_09]: or not we ought to call

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_09]: people who score to stick with the

[01:00:43] [SPEAKER_09]: race example who score

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_09]: strongly negative black

[01:00:47] [SPEAKER_09]: associations on the IIT whether

[01:00:48] [SPEAKER_09]: we are to at all label them

[01:00:51] [SPEAKER_09]: as biased or racist

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_09]: and I think that a lot

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_09]: of the energy

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_09]: on one side that wants

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_09]: to say hey look isn't it

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_09]: crazy how we can assess how racist everybody

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_09]: is that is driven

[01:01:05] [SPEAKER_09]: in part

[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_09]: by this desire to

[01:01:08] [SPEAKER_09]: show that you know

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_09]: racism hasn't disappeared

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_09]: and then the critics are

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_09]: driven by this real antipathy

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_09]: toward saying that this is racism so like

[01:01:19] [SPEAKER_09]: I am a member

[01:01:20] [SPEAKER_09]: of the ACLU

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_09]: and I voted for Obama and all

[01:01:25] [SPEAKER_09]: of my behaviors are ones that aren't racist

[01:01:27] [SPEAKER_09]: how dare you call me a race on the basis of this

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_09]: shitty test that you put online

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_09]: and

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm sympathetic to both of those claims

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_09]: your last

[01:01:36] [SPEAKER_09]: point is surely one that everybody agrees

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_09]: on I mean this is

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_09]: these are people who are studying

[01:01:42] [SPEAKER_09]: individual psychology

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_09]: and in particular a very very

[01:01:46] [SPEAKER_09]: specific way in which you might acquire

[01:01:49] [SPEAKER_09]: a negatively valenced attitude

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_09]: about a class of objects

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_09]: whether it's a race or not

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_09]: and I think that anybody who thinks

[01:01:56] [SPEAKER_09]: that this is a panacea

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_09]: for

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_09]: combating

[01:02:03] [SPEAKER_09]: the problems that have to do with race in this

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_09]: country is smoking crack

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_09]: and that's what really

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_09]: pisses me off

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_09]: I didn't read too much about the

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_09]: Starbucks fiasco but my

[01:02:14] [SPEAKER_09]: sense is that they were giving implicit bias

[01:02:16] [SPEAKER_09]: training as a way

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_09]: to address this

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_02]: okay we fixed the problem

[01:02:22] [SPEAKER_02]: like we're doing implicit bias training

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_09]: and this gets to a little bit

[01:02:26] [SPEAKER_09]: I didn't discuss which is

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_09]: there's a recent paper that just came out

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_09]: trying to look at

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_09]: Brian Nosik is one of the

[01:02:34] [SPEAKER_09]: co-authors

[01:02:36] [SPEAKER_09]: I think it's brand new

[01:02:37] [SPEAKER_09]: I'll link to it as well

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_09]: trying to show whether

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_09]: implicit

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_09]: bias reductions

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_09]: have any effect on behavior

[01:02:47] [SPEAKER_09]: and that's a very depressing one

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_09]: like that actually

[01:02:51] [SPEAKER_09]: shows that even if there is a link

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_09]: between implicit bias

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_09]: and behavior

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_09]: that is

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_09]: fairly small as a predictor

[01:03:01] [SPEAKER_09]: for all the reasons that we've talked about

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_09]: but

[01:03:04] [SPEAKER_09]: moving people down on

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_09]: trying to get their score down on the IIT

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_09]: through a variety of means

[01:03:11] [SPEAKER_09]: doesn't seem to do much

[01:03:12] [SPEAKER_09]: to their behavior

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_09]: and that's not a huge surprise

[01:03:17] [SPEAKER_02]: right? if there are

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_02]: these implicit attitudes

[01:03:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and if they do influence behavior

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_02]: in these subtle ways

[01:03:23] [SPEAKER_02]: it's going to take more than a two day seminar

[01:03:26] [SPEAKER_02]: to change that

[01:03:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's going to take

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean I honestly think that

[01:03:33] [SPEAKER_02]: my guess is

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_02]: it would be hard to measure this

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_02]: but I suppose you could if you were so inclined

[01:03:38] [SPEAKER_02]: to measure

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_02]: somebody moving from a less diverse environment

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_02]: to a much more diverse environment

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and then

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_02]: measuring how they test

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_02]: after that

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_02]: but

[01:03:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and again even then

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: so let's say that

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_02]: had an effect

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_02]: but the thing that I think

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_02]: drives people crazy

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_02]: about these

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_02]: diversity

[01:04:05] [SPEAKER_02]: seminars

[01:04:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and also the way that people talk about their score

[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_02]: on the implicit association test

[01:04:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Jesse Singal has

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_02]: he says it's almost like a ritual now

[01:04:14] [SPEAKER_02]: where you have to confess your score

[01:04:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and also confess how taken

[01:04:19] [SPEAKER_02]: aback you were by your score

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_02]: it has this kind of

[01:04:23] [SPEAKER_02]: confessional white guilt kind of

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_02]: now I'm cleansed

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_02]: by admitting that I'm privileged

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and racist

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and I know that's not true

[01:04:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and I know a lot of these people are also in addition

[01:04:36] [SPEAKER_02]: to that actually working

[01:04:38] [SPEAKER_02]: for causes that will

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_02]: that can have and supporting causes

[01:04:42] [SPEAKER_02]: that can have real effects

[01:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: but I think that's the unfortunate thing about the debate

[01:04:47] [SPEAKER_02]: and the controversy surrounding it

[01:04:49] [SPEAKER_02]: is that

[01:04:50] [SPEAKER_02]: the people engaging

[01:04:53] [SPEAKER_02]: it and I think this is on both

[01:04:54] [SPEAKER_02]: both sides

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_02]: but maybe

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_02]: but maybe like the sort of

[01:05:00] [SPEAKER_02]: the kind of white liberal

[01:05:02] [SPEAKER_02]: who likes to

[01:05:03] [SPEAKER_02]: disclose this

[01:05:05] [SPEAKER_02]: information and try to address it

[01:05:10] [SPEAKER_02]: there's something about it that strikes me as

[01:05:12] [SPEAKER_02]: well

[01:05:13] [SPEAKER_02]: as you're letting yourself

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and others off too easy

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and distracting from the real problem

[01:05:20] [SPEAKER_09]: it's a super safe

[01:05:22] [SPEAKER_09]: way

[01:05:23] [SPEAKER_09]: to say that you're addressing by a racist

[01:05:26] [SPEAKER_09]: and

[01:05:27] [SPEAKER_09]: I so

[01:05:30] [SPEAKER_09]: is a few things so

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_09]: I think that if there is a value

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_09]: to

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_09]: this work on implicit bias

[01:05:38] [SPEAKER_09]: the value is

[01:05:40] [SPEAKER_09]: an academic one so

[01:05:41] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm interested in

[01:05:44] [SPEAKER_09]: how attitudes are formed in the structure

[01:05:46] [SPEAKER_09]: of the mind there is interesting

[01:05:48] [SPEAKER_09]: there are interesting questions about how

[01:05:50] [SPEAKER_09]: the human mind works

[01:05:52] [SPEAKER_09]: that this work can address

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_09]: and working out the kinks

[01:05:55] [SPEAKER_09]: in the

[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_09]: keep doing it I love it it's good work

[01:06:00] [SPEAKER_09]: there's some value in that

[01:06:03] [SPEAKER_09]: there is also some value

[01:06:06] [SPEAKER_09]: in taking

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_09]: the task

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_09]: and realizing that you might have

[01:06:12] [SPEAKER_09]: these automatic

[01:06:14] [SPEAKER_09]: associations

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_09]: I can say the first time I took a task it was

[01:06:17] [SPEAKER_09]: it was kind of a weird thing

[01:06:20] [SPEAKER_09]: to

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_09]: noticeably

[01:06:23] [SPEAKER_09]: see how much harder one was

[01:06:25] [SPEAKER_09]: than the other so there is

[01:06:27] [SPEAKER_09]: some value if it can get a conversation

[01:06:29] [SPEAKER_09]: going if it can get you to

[01:06:30] [SPEAKER_09]: reflect but the way that it's been

[01:06:33] [SPEAKER_09]: used now as

[01:06:35] [SPEAKER_09]: the source

[01:06:37] [SPEAKER_09]: of problems

[01:06:39] [SPEAKER_09]: in the workplace or in society in general

[01:06:41] [SPEAKER_09]: is gonna

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_09]: I agree 100% with you

[01:06:44] [SPEAKER_09]: like that's not a two day

[01:06:47] [SPEAKER_09]: workshop talking about implicit bias

[01:06:48] [SPEAKER_09]: is going to

[01:06:50] [SPEAKER_09]: piss off white people who say they don't have a racist

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_09]: bone in their body

[01:06:54] [SPEAKER_09]: and it's

[01:06:56] [SPEAKER_09]: not gonna change probably their implicit or

[01:06:58] [SPEAKER_09]: explicit attitude

[01:06:59] [SPEAKER_09]: and it's gonna get

[01:07:01] [SPEAKER_09]: bunch of white people who already know that

[01:07:04] [SPEAKER_09]: they're you know

[01:07:06] [SPEAKER_09]: exactly in the self-congratulatory way

[01:07:08] [SPEAKER_09]: that you were describing

[01:07:09] [SPEAKER_09]: the sort of

[01:07:12] [SPEAKER_09]: confessional it's gonna make them happy

[01:07:14] [SPEAKER_09]: about what they've done to be

[01:07:16] [SPEAKER_09]: less racist and I don't think it will have

[01:07:19] [SPEAKER_09]: an effect on them either

[01:07:20] [SPEAKER_09]: and

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_09]: so

[01:07:23] [SPEAKER_09]: it sucks that

[01:07:26] [SPEAKER_09]: there's no easy way out of the race

[01:07:28] [SPEAKER_09]: problems in this country

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_09]: there's no easy way out

[01:07:31] [SPEAKER_09]: and anything that gives people

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_09]: the feeling

[01:07:36] [SPEAKER_09]: that it won't take hard

[01:07:38] [SPEAKER_09]: work of like actually black people

[01:07:40] [SPEAKER_09]: and white people talking to each other

[01:07:43] [SPEAKER_09]: no one reforming

[01:07:44] [SPEAKER_09]: major institution structural stuff

[01:07:47] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah

[01:07:48] [SPEAKER_09]: all of that stuff

[01:07:50] [SPEAKER_09]: is it's a hard solution

[01:07:52] [SPEAKER_09]: it's a hard solution and I think the solution

[01:07:56] [SPEAKER_09]: seems even harder

[01:07:58] [SPEAKER_09]: now given that

[01:07:59] [SPEAKER_09]: that it seems as if now

[01:08:03] [SPEAKER_09]: thought that racism had subsided

[01:08:05] [SPEAKER_09]: quite a bit more than it probably

[01:08:07] [SPEAKER_09]: had because

[01:08:09] [SPEAKER_09]: the nature of public

[01:08:11] [SPEAKER_09]: communication is

[01:08:13] [SPEAKER_09]: just such that I don't even believe

[01:08:15] [SPEAKER_09]: that people are ashamed

[01:08:17] [SPEAKER_09]: to report their racist beliefs

[01:08:18] [SPEAKER_09]: the way that they might have been

[01:08:21] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah I mean I wonder if the controversy

[01:08:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the height of this

[01:08:25] [SPEAKER_02]: controversy was in during the Obama

[01:08:27] [SPEAKER_02]: years where

[01:08:30] [SPEAKER_02]: people

[01:08:31] [SPEAKER_02]: people might be more likely to say

[01:08:33] [SPEAKER_02]: hey look we voted for

[01:08:35] [SPEAKER_02]: a black president

[01:08:37] [SPEAKER_02]: twice we're not racist anymore

[01:08:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and if this had

[01:08:41] [SPEAKER_02]: a kind of

[01:08:43] [SPEAKER_02]: pragmatic

[01:08:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and again I'm uncomfortable

[01:08:46] [SPEAKER_02]: about this Jesse Singler

[01:08:48] [SPEAKER_02]: talks about this in one of his

[01:08:50] [SPEAKER_02]: one of the articles that I read which is

[01:08:52] [SPEAKER_02]: look look even if this isn't

[01:08:54] [SPEAKER_02]: that good a measure or it doesn't predict

[01:08:56] [SPEAKER_02]: behavior it's good for white people to recognize

[01:08:58] [SPEAKER_02]: that

[01:09:00] [SPEAKER_02]: the country is still racist and that

[01:09:02] [SPEAKER_02]: they might harbor racist attitudes

[01:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: it's just a good thing for them

[01:09:06] [SPEAKER_02]: to do I'm uncomfortable with the idea

[01:09:08] [SPEAKER_02]: of using science or fudging

[01:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: the science

[01:09:11] [SPEAKER_02]: to further

[01:09:14] [SPEAKER_02]: a goal that you think is

[01:09:16] [SPEAKER_02]: morally correct but

[01:09:17] [SPEAKER_02]: let's just say it did have that effect

[01:09:20] [SPEAKER_02]: now I think

[01:09:22] [SPEAKER_02]: that the

[01:09:24] [SPEAKER_02]: illusion that we are a

[01:09:26] [SPEAKER_02]: post-racial society has dissipated

[01:09:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I think

[01:09:30] [SPEAKER_02]: in the last couple years

[01:09:32] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah and

[01:09:34] [SPEAKER_09]: the sort of

[01:09:36] [SPEAKER_09]: the sort of need to

[01:09:38] [SPEAKER_09]: uncover the secret races

[01:09:41] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean that's what it's

[01:09:42] [SPEAKER_02]: the NFL just voted for a policy that

[01:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: doesn't allow black people

[01:09:46] [SPEAKER_02]: to protest like police violence

[01:09:48] [SPEAKER_09]: that's just so you know when I was

[01:09:50] [SPEAKER_09]: a grad student

[01:09:53] [SPEAKER_09]: Mazreen

[01:09:54] [SPEAKER_09]: Banaji

[01:09:56] [SPEAKER_09]: let me be in her office space

[01:09:58] [SPEAKER_09]: so the office space for the grad students

[01:10:00] [SPEAKER_09]: that she had was really nice

[01:10:02] [SPEAKER_09]: I was sort of in between

[01:10:04] [SPEAKER_09]: advisors and she said yeah you can be there

[01:10:06] [SPEAKER_09]: so

[01:10:07] [SPEAKER_09]: I would work every day with all the kids

[01:10:09] [SPEAKER_09]: we were doing the IIT research including Brian

[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_09]: Nocic and I said you know if you guys

[01:10:14] [SPEAKER_09]: really want to use this task

[01:10:16] [SPEAKER_09]: in a way that

[01:10:17] [SPEAKER_09]: could show that it works

[01:10:20] [SPEAKER_09]: why don't you make a version

[01:10:22] [SPEAKER_09]: that

[01:10:24] [SPEAKER_09]: shows

[01:10:26] [SPEAKER_09]: like sexy

[01:10:28] [SPEAKER_09]: half-naked women and sexy half-naked

[01:10:30] [SPEAKER_09]: men

[01:10:31] [SPEAKER_09]: and give it to

[01:10:34] [SPEAKER_09]: explicitly gay men

[01:10:35] [SPEAKER_09]: explicitly straight men

[01:10:38] [SPEAKER_09]: and

[01:10:39] [SPEAKER_09]: see if it's good

[01:10:41] [SPEAKER_09]: at uncovering people

[01:10:43] [SPEAKER_09]: who are gay but they're not willing to say

[01:10:45] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah

[01:10:47] [SPEAKER_09]: and I even

[01:10:49] [SPEAKER_09]: did some research I found the images

[01:10:51] [SPEAKER_09]: I called it the hiatus the homosexual

[01:10:53] [SPEAKER_09]: IIT undercover score

[01:10:54] [SPEAKER_09]: and I told Brian

[01:10:57] [SPEAKER_09]: Nocic about it and then I told Mazreen

[01:10:59] [SPEAKER_09]: and then he told Mazreen about it and she brought me in her office and she said

[01:11:02] [SPEAKER_09]: you will never do that

[01:11:06] [SPEAKER_09]: sounds like a good idea

[01:11:08] [SPEAKER_09]: I think it's probably somebody's done it by now

[01:11:10] [SPEAKER_09]: explicitly I was a maverick

[01:11:12] [SPEAKER_09]: I was ahead of my time

[01:11:14] [SPEAKER_02]: you could have then joined

[01:11:16] [SPEAKER_02]: the intellectual dark web

[01:11:18] [SPEAKER_02]: of that period

[01:11:21] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah we were still using

[01:11:22] [SPEAKER_09]: altavista back then there wasn't much of a web

[01:11:25] [SPEAKER_09]: but yeah

[01:11:26] [SPEAKER_09]: I think

[01:11:28] [SPEAKER_09]: that if

[01:11:29] [SPEAKER_09]: the public debate

[01:11:31] [SPEAKER_09]: about whether or not we have

[01:11:33] [SPEAKER_09]: secret racism

[01:11:34] [SPEAKER_09]: is very different

[01:11:36] [SPEAKER_09]: than the methodological

[01:11:38] [SPEAKER_09]: you know

[01:11:40] [SPEAKER_09]: academic debates

[01:11:41] [SPEAKER_09]: and we can separate them out

[01:11:44] [SPEAKER_09]: they're linked because you want

[01:11:47] [SPEAKER_09]: good science to

[01:11:47] [SPEAKER_09]: if there's even to be a debate

[01:11:50] [SPEAKER_09]: but I think

[01:11:52] [SPEAKER_09]: they're pretty separable and I think that

[01:11:55] [SPEAKER_09]: no matter how

[01:11:56] [SPEAKER_09]: strong the IIT gets at predicting behavior

[01:11:59] [SPEAKER_09]: if what we really care about

[01:12:01] [SPEAKER_09]: is making

[01:12:03] [SPEAKER_09]: the world or the U.S.

[01:12:05] [SPEAKER_09]: less racist then

[01:12:06] [SPEAKER_09]: we're not going to be able to do

[01:12:09] [SPEAKER_02]: just that

[01:12:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and in fact like this in some ways

[01:12:13] [SPEAKER_02]: might be a bad use of our

[01:12:15] [SPEAKER_02]: energies

[01:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: that we want to direct towards it

[01:12:18] [SPEAKER_02]: it's sexy, it's sexy

[01:12:19] [SPEAKER_02]: but it's very surface

[01:12:22] [SPEAKER_02]: it's very superficially sexy

[01:12:25] [SPEAKER_09]: it's like the Myers-Briggs

[01:12:27] [SPEAKER_02]: oh which we'll talk about

[01:12:29] [SPEAKER_09]: and there's been

[01:12:31] [SPEAKER_09]: I think rightfully so a fear

[01:12:33] [SPEAKER_09]: that employers would use the IIT

[01:12:35] [SPEAKER_09]: as a way

[01:12:36] [SPEAKER_09]: of either screening

[01:12:39] [SPEAKER_09]: hires or finding out

[01:12:41] [SPEAKER_09]: something about their own employees

[01:12:43] [SPEAKER_09]: which I think would be very irresponsible

[01:12:44] [SPEAKER_09]: given the sort of

[01:12:47] [SPEAKER_09]: unreliability of the test

[01:12:51] [SPEAKER_02]: can I ask

[01:12:53] [SPEAKER_02]: a couple of

[01:12:55] [SPEAKER_02]: final questions

[01:12:56] [SPEAKER_02]: which I just had in my head

[01:12:59] [SPEAKER_02]: so number one is this the same

[01:13:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Anthony Greenwald that wrote the Totalitarian Ego?

[01:13:04] [SPEAKER_09]: absolutely

[01:13:05] [SPEAKER_09]: and

[01:13:07] [SPEAKER_09]: that's such a great paper

[01:13:09] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah it is a great paper

[01:13:11] [SPEAKER_09]: he was Mazurin Banaji's

[01:13:13] [SPEAKER_09]: advisor, Mazurin Banaji was Brian Nozick's

[01:13:15] [SPEAKER_09]: advisor and the three of them

[01:13:17] [SPEAKER_09]: collaborated quite a bit

[01:13:18] [SPEAKER_09]: on the IIT

[01:13:20] [SPEAKER_02]: number two related to what you were just saying

[01:13:22] [SPEAKER_02]: so one of the things

[01:13:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that frustrates a careful

[01:13:26] [SPEAKER_02]: science journalist like Jesse

[01:13:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Sengal and I would

[01:13:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I can understand this

[01:13:31] [SPEAKER_02]: is exactly related to that

[01:13:34] [SPEAKER_02]: point about the academic

[01:13:36] [SPEAKER_02]: debate versus the popular debate

[01:13:38] [SPEAKER_02]: so

[01:13:40] [SPEAKER_02]: it seems like Anthony Greenwald

[01:13:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and Mazurin Banaji

[01:13:45] [SPEAKER_02]: when they

[01:13:46] [SPEAKER_02]: have responded to critics coming

[01:13:48] [SPEAKER_02]: like Jesse Sengal they had said

[01:13:50] [SPEAKER_02]: look this is an academic debate

[01:13:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and the devil is in the details

[01:13:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's really not appropriate

[01:13:56] [SPEAKER_02]: to debate this

[01:13:57] [SPEAKER_02]: in the popular press

[01:13:59] [SPEAKER_02]: because these are really technical

[01:14:01] [SPEAKER_02]: the issues that are being raised

[01:14:04] [SPEAKER_02]: are very technical in nature

[01:14:06] [SPEAKER_02]: it seems like you can't do

[01:14:08] [SPEAKER_02]: that and at the same time

[01:14:09] [SPEAKER_02]: also

[01:14:11] [SPEAKER_02]: promote it at a popular

[01:14:14] [SPEAKER_02]: journalistic level

[01:14:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and you know use it

[01:14:17] [SPEAKER_02]: to write a bestselling book

[01:14:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and you know

[01:14:21] [SPEAKER_02]: the press really so it seems like there is

[01:14:23] [SPEAKER_02]: an attempt and this

[01:14:25] [SPEAKER_02]: is one of the ways in which

[01:14:27] [SPEAKER_02]: at least as he portrays it

[01:14:29] [SPEAKER_02]: she and Anthony Greenwald

[01:14:30] [SPEAKER_02]: don't come off well is

[01:14:33] [SPEAKER_02]: they want to have it both ways

[01:14:34] [SPEAKER_02]: they want it to be

[01:14:36] [SPEAKER_02]: promoted and defended

[01:14:38] [SPEAKER_02]: in the popular press

[01:14:40] [SPEAKER_02]: but anytime there are critics

[01:14:42] [SPEAKER_02]: they want that to come

[01:14:44] [SPEAKER_02]: to be a really technical

[01:14:45] [SPEAKER_02]: thing that nobody finds out about

[01:14:47] [SPEAKER_09]: well I don't think that yeah

[01:14:49] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know Anthony Greenwald

[01:14:53] [SPEAKER_09]: very well

[01:14:54] [SPEAKER_09]: at least but

[01:14:55] [SPEAKER_09]: I do know Mazurin well and I think

[01:14:58] [SPEAKER_09]: that if I were to

[01:15:00] [SPEAKER_09]: guess I think that

[01:15:03] [SPEAKER_09]: that the way that Jesse framed it

[01:15:06] [SPEAKER_09]: is a bit unfair to her

[01:15:07] [SPEAKER_09]: so I think that what she

[01:15:08] [SPEAKER_09]: is saying is

[01:15:10] [SPEAKER_09]: I believe that this test

[01:15:12] [SPEAKER_09]: is in fact assessing

[01:15:14] [SPEAKER_09]: at some level

[01:15:16] [SPEAKER_09]: prejudice

[01:15:18] [SPEAKER_09]: and you science journalists

[01:15:20] [SPEAKER_09]: are coming to me and saying hey

[01:15:22] [SPEAKER_09]: Phil Tetlock and Blart Hanton

[01:15:24] [SPEAKER_09]: have published this stuff

[01:15:27] [SPEAKER_09]: about you know criticizing the IT

[01:15:29] [SPEAKER_09]: and

[01:15:31] [SPEAKER_09]: you know what do you think

[01:15:32] [SPEAKER_09]: it would be disingenuous

[01:15:35] [SPEAKER_09]: if she actually

[01:15:36] [SPEAKER_09]: I think believed that those criticisms

[01:15:39] [SPEAKER_09]: were damning

[01:15:40] [SPEAKER_09]: but she it's not as if she hasn't

[01:15:43] [SPEAKER_09]: published papers

[01:15:44] [SPEAKER_09]: right they've done meta analysis

[01:15:46] [SPEAKER_09]: they've responded to the academic papers

[01:15:49] [SPEAKER_09]: that criticize them I can see

[01:15:51] [SPEAKER_09]: why she wouldn't want to say well

[01:15:53] [SPEAKER_09]: the inclusion criteria for

[01:15:55] [SPEAKER_09]: the meta analysis that

[01:15:57] [SPEAKER_09]: Tetlock and Blanton use were

[01:15:58] [SPEAKER_09]: different because of this and this and this

[01:16:00] [SPEAKER_09]: and the you know the way that they scored

[01:16:03] [SPEAKER_09]: the IT was they didn't

[01:16:04] [SPEAKER_09]: put the blocks together they separated

[01:16:07] [SPEAKER_09]: them and you know I can see

[01:16:09] [SPEAKER_09]: why she would say that and I could see

[01:16:11] [SPEAKER_09]: how Jesse both in good faith

[01:16:12] [SPEAKER_09]: both acting good faith it would

[01:16:15] [SPEAKER_09]: come across as if she is deflecting

[01:16:17] [SPEAKER_09]: now

[01:16:18] [SPEAKER_09]: I think that if you asked

[01:16:21] [SPEAKER_09]: Maasreen maybe

[01:16:22] [SPEAKER_09]: at this point she wouldn't be

[01:16:24] [SPEAKER_09]: comfortable with some of the claims they made in

[01:16:27] [SPEAKER_09]: the book

[01:16:28] [SPEAKER_09]: some of the stronger claims they made in the book

[01:16:30] [SPEAKER_09]: I would think I know for

[01:16:32] [SPEAKER_09]: certain Brian Nosek is actually

[01:16:35] [SPEAKER_09]: back down quite a bit

[01:16:37] [SPEAKER_09]: he wasn't a co-author in the book but he is

[01:16:39] [SPEAKER_09]: he's

[01:16:40] [SPEAKER_09]: looking at the evidence very carefully

[01:16:42] [SPEAKER_09]: and doing work

[01:16:44] [SPEAKER_09]: showing that in many cases

[01:16:46] [SPEAKER_09]: it is not a good task

[01:16:48] [SPEAKER_09]: but

[01:16:50] [SPEAKER_09]: but I can see how that might be lost in translation

[01:16:53] [SPEAKER_09]: and so maybe the

[01:16:54] [SPEAKER_09]: better strategy would have been to say

[01:16:57] [SPEAKER_09]: these methodological critiques we've addressed here

[01:17:00] [SPEAKER_09]: right find a way

[01:17:02] [SPEAKER_09]: to communicate

[01:17:06] [SPEAKER_09]: to the popular press that these

[01:17:08] [SPEAKER_09]: methodological critiques aren't as important

[01:17:10] [SPEAKER_09]: as maybe they say there

[01:17:11] [SPEAKER_02]: or maybe just be like philosophers

[01:17:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and not have anybody care about

[01:17:16] [SPEAKER_02]: your

[01:17:18] [SPEAKER_02]: results and theories and arguments

[01:17:20] [SPEAKER_02]: to begin with

[01:17:21] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean you know if the barns

[01:17:24] [SPEAKER_09]: are all facades

[01:17:25] [SPEAKER_09]: but how many barns

[01:17:28] [SPEAKER_09]: were in your thought experiment

[01:17:31] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah what was the N

[01:17:33] [SPEAKER_02]: for barns

[01:17:34] [SPEAKER_09]: it's been argued that

[01:17:36] [SPEAKER_09]: the more barns in your thought experiment

[01:17:37] [SPEAKER_09]: the more your intuition

[01:17:39] [SPEAKER_02]: this is very technical and I'm sorry

[01:17:42] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not appropriate for debate

[01:17:43] [SPEAKER_02]: in the New York Times

[01:17:45] [SPEAKER_02]: in the USA today

[01:17:46] [SPEAKER_09]: leave me alone about the barns already

[01:17:50] [SPEAKER_09]: I've written it

[01:17:51] [SPEAKER_09]: I've written it up in mind go read that

[01:17:55] [SPEAKER_02]: in the Canadian Journal of Philosophy

[01:17:57] [SPEAKER_09]: my thoughts are well documented there

[01:18:01] [SPEAKER_02]: also in an edited volume with

[01:18:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Browlish

[01:18:08] [SPEAKER_09]: well at least in philosophy

[01:18:10] [SPEAKER_02]: no offense to the Canadian Journal of Philosophy

[01:18:12] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah

[01:18:13] [SPEAKER_09]: at least in philosophy

[01:18:16] [SPEAKER_09]: you've decisively demonstrated that

[01:18:20] [SPEAKER_09]: no one cares

[01:18:21] [SPEAKER_09]: that rule consequentialism collapses into

[01:18:24] [SPEAKER_09]: that consequentialism

[01:18:27] [SPEAKER_09]: solid

[01:18:28] [SPEAKER_09]: solid result

[01:18:30] [SPEAKER_09]: may nobody ever claim

[01:18:32] [SPEAKER_09]: that philosophy does not make progress

[01:18:35] [SPEAKER_02]: there's a big debate about that right now

[01:18:37] [SPEAKER_02]: oh really

[01:18:38] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah you must not have been online recently

[01:18:42] [SPEAKER_02]: have you been in a meditation or treat or something

[01:18:44] [SPEAKER_02]: how do you not know about this

[01:18:49] [SPEAKER_09]: I believe it collapses and I believe all people

[01:18:52] [SPEAKER_09]: who say that it doesn't collapse are only

[01:18:55] [SPEAKER_09]: motivated

[01:18:56] [SPEAKER_09]: by personal antipathy

[01:18:58] [SPEAKER_09]: toward

[01:19:00] [SPEAKER_09]: actual turns

[01:19:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and Native Americans

[01:19:06] [SPEAKER_09]: of course

[01:19:08] [SPEAKER_09]: I didn't even think you'd have to say that

[01:19:13] [SPEAKER_02]: alright well we did the best we could

[01:19:15] [SPEAKER_02]: on the IAT

[01:19:16] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe the listeners were right that we should

[01:19:18] [SPEAKER_02]: do personality psychology

[01:19:20] [SPEAKER_02]: although we'll see how we managed to

[01:19:24] [SPEAKER_02]: put you there

[01:19:26] [SPEAKER_09]: go for

[01:19:27] [SPEAKER_09]: we'll put a link to this but you should have said this at the beginning

[01:19:30] [SPEAKER_09]: go take some of these tests

[01:19:32] [SPEAKER_09]: some won't be surprising

[01:19:34] [SPEAKER_09]: because you have very strong explicit attitudes

[01:19:36] [SPEAKER_09]: so if you do like a flower

[01:19:38] [SPEAKER_09]: versus insect

[01:19:40] [SPEAKER_09]: it won't be surprised

[01:19:42] [SPEAKER_09]: you won't

[01:19:44] [SPEAKER_09]: you never know

[01:19:45] [SPEAKER_09]: you might learn something cool

[01:19:46] [SPEAKER_09]: like you like step sister

[01:19:50] [SPEAKER_09]: poor

[01:19:52] [SPEAKER_09]: didn't know

[01:19:53] [SPEAKER_09]: that before

[01:19:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know that I liked

[01:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: putting it in the search engine

[01:19:57] [SPEAKER_02]: but

[01:20:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know that I actually liked it

[01:20:02] [SPEAKER_09]: remember that guy's claim

[01:20:04] [SPEAKER_09]: in that book about lying

[01:20:05] [SPEAKER_09]: that we didn't read but we read the article about it

[01:20:08] [SPEAKER_09]: where he said that the data show

[01:20:10] [SPEAKER_09]: that men like overweight women

[01:20:13] [SPEAKER_09]: as measured by their behavior

[01:20:15] [SPEAKER_09]: I wonder if the IAT

[01:20:17] [SPEAKER_09]: would predict

[01:20:18] [SPEAKER_09]: this

[01:20:20] [SPEAKER_09]: porn watching habits

[01:20:22] [SPEAKER_09]: there would be a solid finding

[01:20:24] [SPEAKER_09]: fuck you Jesse Single

[01:20:26] [SPEAKER_09]: we have evidence

[01:20:28] [SPEAKER_02]: watch dog

[01:20:30] [SPEAKER_09]: leave Mazreen alone

[01:20:31] [SPEAKER_09]: I love her

[01:20:33] [SPEAKER_02]: we should have Jesse sing along

[01:20:36] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah we should

[01:20:38] [SPEAKER_09]: alright

[01:20:40] [SPEAKER_02]: join us next time on Very Bad Wizards

[01:21:25] [SPEAKER_08]: to that man behind the camera