Bonus Episode: Top 5 Deadwood Characters

[00:00:01] Okay, welcome to a very special bonus episode for our beloved Patreon supporters. We are doing an episode on Deadwood, my favorite TV show of all time, one that I hope many of you have already seen and if you haven't, hopefully this bonus episode will inspire

[00:00:39] you to watch it. It's one of those shows that I don't know anybody who has watched it who doesn't like it, who doesn't love it pretty much. David Pizarro Yeah, it's moving up to be my number one too.

[00:00:54] Every time I rewatch it I'm like, I don't know if any other show achieves this level of greatness. Sopranos is usually my number one but Deadwood is three seasons, it's tight. Sopranos has some bad episodes. David Pizarro Right, I agree.

[00:01:14] That's my problem with the Sopranos, it's not its fault. If Deadwood had gone on for six or seven seasons it would have had some kind of dead weight too but it just didn't and in some ways going off the air when it did just

[00:01:28] left us grasping desperately for more. Sopranos Yeah, that's right. They teased us. That always works. David Pizarro So we're going to do our top five Deadwood characters. It's a show of amazing characters, some of the best characters.

[00:01:45] I mean yeah, we'll talk about Al Swarangin because he's not even eligible for our list because I think he might just be the best television character in TV history. Sopranos Agreed. David Pizarro Agreed, yeah. So we'll see if we have any overlap on our list.

[00:02:04] We have one bit of overlap that we didn't expect and that is in our bourbon. Sopranos That's right, I ran out to buy bourbon, sort of because you can't record a Deadwood episode without drinking. It just feels wrong.

[00:02:18] So I ran out and I bought what became my favorite bourbon, Angels Envy and sure enough when Tamler held up his bottle he was drinking the exact same thing. But a good one. David Pizarro I rarely am out of bourbon.

[00:02:36] I try to make sure that that won't happen. It's toilet paper on the other hand we may soon have some trouble finding bourbon. Sopranos I don't understand that but yeah, I went and bought a bunch of liquor actually and I was like yeah,

[00:02:51] fuck toilet paper making a liquor run. David Pizarro Yeah what's the deal with the toilet paper? Sopranos It's not like coronavirus gives you diarrhea. I don't understand it, it's just hysteria.

[00:03:01] But it's hysteria that affects us because if you just want to buy toilet paper like a normal human being and then have to use my hands like an animal. David Pizarro Alright so yeah we're going to talk about our favorite characters.

[00:03:16] Let me give just the briefest of brief summaries of the setting of the show for anybody who hasn't seen it. I don't think our list will be spoilery at all. It's not really a show that can be spoiled but obviously if you've seen the show

[00:03:36] you'll know who we're talking about so it will be more enjoyable. But for those who haven't and who don't mind listening to spoiler episodes. Sopranos We'll eventually be light spoilers when we talk about the characters I'm sure.

[00:03:48] David Pizarro Here is what the setting of the show is and I'm going to quote Jim Beaver, the actor who plays Ellsworth who, spoiler alert may appear on my list. He wrote the description on IMDB just the show summary.

[00:04:04] I think especially for season one this sets it up. The town of Deadwood, South Dakota in the weeks following the Custer Massacre is a lawless sinkhole of crime and corruption. Into this uncivilized outpost ride a disillusioned and bitter ex-lawman

[00:04:24] Wild Bill Hickock and Seth Bullock, a man hoping to find a new start for himself. Both men find themselves quickly on opposite sides of the legal and moral fence from Al Sweringen, saloon owner, hotel operator and incipient boss of Deadwood.

[00:04:42] The lives of these three intertwine with many others, the high-minded and the low-lifes who populate Deadwood in 1876. So it's this fascinating overlap of real life characters, real life events. Deadwood, South Dakota really was this uncivilized outpost. This was North and South Dakota didn't become a state until 1889.

[00:05:06] And so it was a town that was where people looked for gold and tried to protect themselves against outside forces created by David. The lawlessness of these towns could feel like a trope in these westerns but that's just how it was.

[00:05:28] This was the expansion of people into the west and for anybody who's not familiar, especially our international listeners, these just really were people looking for gold in these towns where there was no government yet and that ends up being a central plot point

[00:05:47] of Deadwood is sort of how they start forming de facto government. Yeah, and in a community. And these people don't know each other for the most part. They're strangers but they all happen to be in this town and it turns out that the nearby hills do have gold

[00:06:14] and so then it really, the show just becomes about this ragtag community of people in a, it's a hopeless battle against the forces of capitalism and political corruption who are trying to invade and destroy the town and the community.

[00:06:36] I don't know, what do you love about this show? Well, I mean there's the obvious part which is the language that these characters use like the writing of the dialogue is amazing. Every time I watch it, I'm consistently just amazed at the eloquence with which they speak

[00:06:59] but I also love the reality of how they depict the west. It's ugly, it's dirty, it's really that there's no, there's very little romanticizing of the wild west. You see it in all, it's just grossness. Yeah, it's foul mouthed. Yeah, it's foul, yeah.

[00:07:23] I guess the story is that people didn't really use those words but they cursed a lot. It's just curse words were different back then but the writers knew that what they wanted to do was communicate the tone of the speech,

[00:07:36] not the accuracy of the words and so there's more curse words per minute of show and this than I think in, I don't know. I wouldn't know what show would have more. According to Wikipedia the show had 2,980 fucks and an average of 1.56 fucks per minute of footage.

[00:08:02] That's like me in college. Yeah, it's like it. Yeah, so the language is incredible. David Milch is a true genius of dialogue. He wrote most of it in Iambic pentameter and if you actually listen to the dialogue and you try to break it down you can see it.

[00:08:23] I didn't know that. That's fucking awesome. It's incredible and he would just be on the floor, he had a bad back and he would just be on the floor just quoting and having someone write down what he was saying.

[00:08:38] He went over every script and made it in that kind of musical brilliance that really only he can do. It's really, they're perfectly matched David Milch in this setting. And the actors, they deserve so much credit for being able to pull that off.

[00:09:04] There's not many people I think who could deliver those lines so well. So we'll talk about them in the characters. And often given a new script right before they were about to shoot because he was constantly making changes.

[00:09:21] I remember reading an interview with Ian McShane who played Al Swarangin and he asked about that. How was it to have these really long monologues handed to you five minutes before you were supposed to shoot that scene? And he said, you know, it wasn't bad.

[00:09:43] I'll tell you what's bad is when you're given shit dialogue to learn in like ten minutes. Bullshit exposition. But this was poetry and I've like spent a lot of time learning how to recite poetry. So, you know. That's great. That's great.

[00:10:00] So those are some of the things I love. You'll probably talk about the real, like the real things are the characters and the character development over time. I think that's, you know, good dialogue will go nowhere if you don't have amazing character development.

[00:10:16] Yeah. I mean another couple, like I don't want to make it sound too bleak because it's probably the funniest of the prestige dramas, either that or the Sopranos, I guess the Y are two, but I think it's funnier than both of them at its heights.

[00:10:33] It's definitely not politically correct. And even when the larger struggle has a kind of futility to it, there's the bonds of the characters and the humor and the relationships give some reason for hope in the darkness, some light, you know.

[00:10:55] And in that sense I think it's very much like the wire where, you know, the institutions are lined up against them and they can't win that battle but they can still have relationships as a way of surviving.

[00:11:10] Yeah, the moments of true humanity that the characters show, you know, and I guess we could talk more about this, but it seems like it might be a very black-and-white setting at first, like a traditional spaghetti western maybe.

[00:11:27] But the characters gain this complexity and in that complexity, like one of the ways that they gain this complexity is the people you think are bad showing this deep humanity.

[00:11:39] And I was just watching, to get in the mindset of this, I watched the season finale of season one which has so many great moments. And it was bringing me to tears, to be honest. There's so much in that particular episode.

[00:12:00] Remind me what happens at the end of season one? A lot happens. So that's when Swerinjin Mercy kills the Reverend. It's when Bullock beats the shit out of Alma's father who's trying to scam her to take her money away. Just a despicable character. Terrible, terrible character.

[00:12:25] It is when the cavalry comes through town and they hold a parade for them, but there's a magistrate and a couple of generals or something.

[00:12:35] And the magistrate is clearly a crooked guy who's trying to get bribes from Al Swerinjin to try to persuade the powers that be to annex the territory of Deadwood. Silas kills him, right? Silas just fucking like a pig.

[00:12:54] Mr. Woo, that's when Seth Bullock puts on the sheriff's badge. He finally takes it away from the guy. He would have been resisting that the whole first season because he had just been a sheriff and now he wanted to just run a shop. Yeah, very wired up.

[00:13:12] That's the first time he decides to take responsibility. The town is becoming a community now. Right. And that continues. It's a good episode. I think it's my favorite episode. But a lot happens.

[00:13:31] And just in the moments, this is also when Doc gives this monologue, basically ranting against God, begging him to show the reverence some mercy. And let's just get to talking because these are moments that really matter for my list. Yeah.

[00:13:52] Well, let's talk about Al first because we said we can include him as one of our top five because I think he would just definitely be number one. Yeah, it's just like this. But let's talk about why he might be the best television character in history.

[00:14:09] We've mentioned him before. I think on our anti-heroes episode. Yeah, and our villain episode. And in fact, we all, Paul Bloom, you and I also didn't put Al on our list in that episode because he was too obvious.

[00:14:25] But I mean, he starts out in the first few episodes. He is, I wouldn't say evil, but he's a really, really bad guy who probably was going to kill Sophia, a small girl for having witnessed a murder that he had done.

[00:14:44] A murder that he didn't think was prudent to have witnessed. And he doesn't, both for circumstances and maybe some glimmer of conscience, but that's how we're introduced to him.

[00:15:01] And then it's not that he becomes a good person necessarily, but he becomes a real hero in the show because he is the center of this community. And he, that's all he wants.

[00:15:17] Even the bad things, the morally bankrupt things that he does are for the town and the community to stave off the threats from outside. And I think you forgive him for a lot because he's not in it for himself.

[00:15:33] He's in it for the town and because he's willing to do the dirty work that other good people aren't willing to do, including God. That's right. Like what you just said with the Rev. So he, as you mentioned before, mercy kills the Rev. Which provides a relief.

[00:15:54] He was experiencing severe seizures and just like toward the end of his life is just in a constant sort of hallucinogenic fog interrupted by seizures. Yes, and he's in so much pain and so much confusion. And even Doc can't bring himself to end.

[00:16:11] So he's praying to a God he doesn't believe in, but Al just takes action and that just sums up his character right there that he's the one to get it done. That they turn to him.

[00:16:22] They actually wanted him to do it, but they didn't want to stain their character to do it themselves. He's just not afraid. What you said is true too that sort of as the show progresses in the first season, you come to realize that he cares so much about.

[00:16:42] It's not that he's not self-interested. It's that he is also really, really willing to do whatever it takes to for the sake of the community in a way that is not obvious at first.

[00:16:55] But that is, you know, this is what gives rise to many of his more hero moments. The other thing is that he is the most competent person on the show.

[00:17:08] He's a pretty brilliant guy and he's one of the things that make him a pleasure to see is he's always a couple of steps ahead of most other people. And I love his intolerance of the stupidity of those around him, right?

[00:17:24] Though he just doesn't respect the stupidity around him, but he's being a leader. He's being a little bit of a totalitarian leader, but that's because these people I really think he thinks at least needed that kind of leadership. Yeah. No, that's right.

[00:17:41] And in fact the only thing I would maybe add to that is I think when it comes to Hearst, the villain at the end of the second season and the third season, that's the one guy he can't really think two steps ahead of.

[00:17:57] And in fact just the single-minded ruthlessness of Hearst is something that Al doesn't, you know, his superpowers are kind of, they don't, they can't get the job done in that instant. And that's why the show ends in such a tragic way.

[00:18:20] And those moments when Al is vulnerable to Hearst are the moments that make you realize that he's become the person you're cheering for, like so clearly. Right? He also gives my favorite quote maybe from the whole show, although I'd have to watch it again to be sure.

[00:18:46] Do you remember this scene? I think it's in season two. I'm pretty sure. Merrick, the journalist, has had his newspaper office ransacked. He's been beaten and he's thinking of giving up. He's kind of crying.

[00:19:05] Like the Hearst has sent a bunch of goons in there to try to make him publish only articles that are in favor of Hearst and his enterprise that's coming in.

[00:19:18] And so he's sitting there kind of feeling sorry for himself and Al comes in and he starts slapping him. And Merrick's like, what are you doing, Al? Because they're on the same side. Right. What are you doing?

[00:19:30] Al says to Merrick, pain or damage don't end the world or despair or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man and give some back. I love that quote. So great.

[00:19:50] In fact, I think that I used it to open one of our episodes in my little opening quote section because it's so fucking good. That's so fucking good. Yeah. Yeah, you know, Ian McShane as an actor is incredible if you see him in anything else.

[00:20:07] But this is the role that he was meant for. Yes, he was born to play. Yeah, I can't imagine anybody else doing it or doing it well, especially not doing it well. His performance, he should win every Emmy.

[00:20:26] I don't think he won any, which is like a total disgrace. You know that he almost didn't get the role? Oh no, who was it? The actor who plays Psy Tolliver, what's his name? Yeah, Powers Booth. Powers Booth, right. He was really passed away, yeah.

[00:20:48] Yeah, he was going to get it and got sick. And then they gave it to Ian McShane. And so they, and then David Milch gave him Psy Tolliver who comes in midway through the first season. So I guess he got better.

[00:21:04] But that was a lucky break for all of us. I don't think Powers Booth could have done anywhere close to the job that... I mean, so Powers Booth is, I think, you know, I can see the show having Powers Booth.

[00:21:19] Because Powers Booth plays a really good villainous role in Tombstone, the movie Tombstone as well. And he's good here. But what would have been missing is probably the classical training that Ian McShane has to deliver this stuff. You know, like he's masking a British accent, of course.

[00:21:39] Or Irish. I think British or Welsh or something. I mean English, I should say, or Irish. Yeah, that's what it would... The eloquence, I think, would have been missing. Yeah. Alright, should we get into it? Yeah, let's get into it. This was hard, by the way.

[00:21:57] It was very hard. It was very hard. If we have time, we'll have to give our honorable mentions. I have to. Like I wouldn't be able to live with myself without doing that. Okay, so can we just say real quick, like...

[00:22:13] So I tried to stick to what might be considered the main characters. But my real rule was who am I really... Every time they're on screen, who am I just deriving the most pleasure from? Like their performance. And whether it was because they were written very well

[00:22:34] or because they were just good at performing. So... Yeah. I don't know how I chose this list. And when I look at some of the honorable mentions, it makes me sick that they're not on there. But I tried to mix it up a little bit.

[00:22:53] I definitely had that rule where if you gave me a ton of pleasure just in your performance, and... Then I tried to put you on it, although some people aren't still. But then I also tried to represent also different aspects of the show.

[00:23:12] And I only have one cheating one. I'm glad you agreed with me about that. Did you do some quotes or like your favorite quote from these characters? No, I didn't do favorite quotes. I should have if you did it. Now I feel like...

[00:23:28] Well, I mean, I sent you in the outline. Did you say quotes? Yeah. Well, you know, I had meetings all day. Yeah, me too. They were meetings in my mind with my dogs, but still. Now that I can't talk to Eliza's stuffed animals. Oh!

[00:23:46] At the end of the episode, I will give Eliza's top five. She texted me today. She wanted us to read her top five as well. Cool. So are yours in order? Sure. All right. Yeah, mine are in some order. Do you want me to start? Sure. All right.

[00:24:08] I got sighed to Oliver in as much as we said that he could never be Ian McShane. That's true. But I think Powers Booth represents evil in this show in a way that balances Swarovski. Right? So by contrast, and he makes Al look like a good guy.

[00:24:36] And I think he comes into the show a lot earlier than my memory has him come into the show. I think it's like a second episode or something. And he personifies evil. And I think the writers give a lot of quotes.

[00:24:55] They give him a lot of lines that make him actually seem like Lucifer. Right? They have him dressed in red. I think it presented this theory before that he's very Satan-like. They have him say things and allude to things that sound like he's the devil talking.

[00:25:17] And they make him truly evil. Like he has zero mercy. He does a thing with his tongue too, right? Yeah. He's like a snake. Yeah, he is. And he's always dressed in this red outfit. Yeah.

[00:25:32] In fact, I found a fan theory on Reddit that always turn to Reddit for fan theories. Yeah. Like I think he's a great actor, but I think that his lack of mercy in his actions, he just has zero heart. He's cold.

[00:25:57] With Swaring-Gen, pretty quickly you see some caring in his eyes, even with his relationship with Trixie. So both of them run brothels. The way that Al is when he's treating Trixie well, he's loving her. You never see Scytolever loving anybody. Well, I just agree. He likes Joni.

[00:26:22] Yeah, I'm willing to stick to this because he thinks that he loves Joni. But I think he just wants to possess Joni. Possibly. I think there's a part of his dark heart that loves Joni and feels deeply betrayed by her getting a new brothel.

[00:26:46] And the fact that he lets her do it, even if he throws some tantrums about it, is I think some evidence that he really cared for her. Now she did kind of say, I will kill myself if you make me stay here. But still.

[00:27:07] The thing I don't love about the Devil Theory is it's not that far into season two where he's already out of his league in terms of evil when it comes and Hurst and Francis Walcott, who's actually my number five.

[00:27:23] Like he quickly finds out that there's small time evil and bad guy. And that's what he is. And then there's big time evil, bad guy. And that's what Hurst and Walcott are. He's very much the local evil and Hurst does upset the balance of this.

[00:27:42] This is your neighborhood evil agent and Hurst represents the world outside. Because PsyToliver is just a pimp through and through. I think the way that he treats Joni is the way that a pimp thinks that he's showing affection to his horse.

[00:27:57] And in a way that I don't think Sweringen, it really is. No, Sweringen's feelings for Trixie are deep. So let's go to Hurst then, your number five. Well no, Francis Walcott is my... Oh, oh, oh. He's my number five. I wanted to pick a villain. And he is...

[00:28:17] He's about as villainous as they get. Now, Hurst is the sort of representation of capitalism at its worst. Walcott is his errand man, errand boy. But he has this problem which is that he likes to beat whores and also kill them.

[00:28:40] And it's never fully clear what makes him do that. But he is sick. I mean, he's a sick, terrible guy. But like all the characters, maybe with the exception of Hurst, he even... He does in the middle of season two just a horrific massacre of six prostitutes

[00:29:05] in Joni's new whorehouse. So that's over. Her whorehouse did not last very long because all of her prostitutes were killed by Francis Walcott. And you don't think you could hate this guy any more than it's possible to hate a character.

[00:29:26] But then he does something not close to redemption, but it is in his mind the best he can do at that time. He gives Charlie Uter, who has just kicked this living shit out of him in the middle of the town,

[00:29:42] he gives Charlie Uter the letter from Wilde Bill Hickock and allows Charlie Uter and Jane to finally read the letter that he wrote for his wife and to take it back to his wife. And it's that little grace note there that the show gives to him that is...

[00:30:07] That's one of just... It's so beautiful. He also gives... So I have two quotes from him, one very short, one very long. But there's a very... I won't read the long one, but I'll just describe it. Psy Tolliver tries to blackmail him, says he looked into his history

[00:30:24] and he discovered that he has a penchant for killing whores. And you wouldn't want Hearst to find out about this, would you? And he has this great speech to him which is... The bottom line is Hearst already knows this about me,

[00:30:42] but it doesn't get in the way of him getting gold and accumulating more money. So he doesn't care. And now you overplayed your hand. And he concludes it, now I should think, in consequence, now recognizing yourself as a man past his time, that during this last transitional period,

[00:31:01] you would devote yourself with grateful and quiet diligence to such uses as others may still find you suitable. It's just great. And Psy Tolliver is just... His dick has been cut off.

[00:31:16] He had been building up to this kind of trying to get the power back in their relationship and he thought he had it and then, no, he doesn't. But let me just give you my favorite quote. It's just two sentences.

[00:31:31] This is after we find out every horrible thing about him and that guy from Yankton, one of the guys... I forget, I think he's some sort of official from Yankton coming in in this cowardly way to try to blackmail Tolliver and Al

[00:31:50] and he reads this decree from the government about all the different ways they're going to fuck the town over and then he leaves the tavern and Francis Walcott says, I am a sinner who does not expect forgiveness but I am not a government official. That's nice.

[00:32:16] Yeah, so he is... I mean, he's a psychopath. The moments of kindness strike me as the charm that is often attributed to psychopaths because it seems as if he... even Hearst is instrumental in his evil and the way that he just kills,

[00:32:53] just because he seems to want to kill those prostitutes is just pure fucking psychopath. And he's weird. The reason he's not on my list is because he's so creepy and weird that I never enjoyed his... like him. Yeah? Yeah. I don't know, like...

[00:33:12] So I think he has a compulsion and you know, a horrible compulsion but I don't know if he's a psychopath. I think he does feel... I think he feels guilty for what he's done and that's why he gives the letter back. That's not just charm, right?

[00:33:31] Yeah, maybe, yeah. I agree that he's creepy as all fuck. Yeah. By the way, do you remember that? Oh, go ahead. Sorry. So by the way, the actor's name is Garrett Dilla Hunt and he also played a different character in season one.

[00:33:44] That's exactly what I was about to say. He plays the guy who killed... well, Bill, right? Right. Shot him in the back. Yeah. Yeah, Jack McCall. That was his character in season one. I mean, it's unrecognizable at first glance, at least.

[00:34:00] Like, you could watch this and not know that it was the same guy. But when you watch it again, it's obvious in season one. But yeah. How many times have you seen the show, by the way? Three... three, I think. I think four for me. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:20] It's so good. All right. It's like we keep singing the praises, but it's so rewatchable. Like, you could have it on a loop. Yep. You could just... right, it could just be the thing you turn on as soon as you get into your house

[00:34:34] while you're just doing dishes or whatever, making dinner, cutting up the stuff from Hello Fresh, which actually takes like an hour. They say it takes 20 minutes. All right. So here is one working my way up. So I debated about this. Maybe I'm going to cheat.

[00:35:04] Jane, Calamity Jane, I think her performance is amazing. And if you know the real... like if you've seen the actress in anything else, she gives just one of the best... Like, I don't know if she's been recognized for it.

[00:35:19] I don't know if she wanted any awards for it. But the way in which she plays a poor sort of pathetic alcoholic soul who's just lost after the death of Wild Bill, she's just lost in this world. She has zero idea what she's doing, but has a heart.

[00:35:36] She has just a great heart, but he's also just the most cantankerous fucking bitch in the... Like you can imagine. She's just constantly cursing out Charlie Utter. The only friend she has left in this world. She's the only person who deeply cares about it.

[00:35:53] Yeah, she just cannot be bothered to deal with even the mildest of inconveniences. And these inconveniences might include urinating in a designated area. She then... she shows this amazing heart though in the way that she both deals with the sufferers of smallpox. Smallpox, right?

[00:36:19] She becomes the doctor's assistant. And you realize there that if she's given a purpose, she can pull herself together. But that's hard because she often finds herself just right back where she started probably because of her severe, severe alcoholism.

[00:36:39] I mean, it must be difficult to portray a character because like 90% of the time inebriated. Yeah. And fighting herself. And fighting like anytime somebody wants to help her, her first instinct is to curse them out. And she has some great cursing. She's up there with Al as just...

[00:37:05] Oh, I know. Just the poetry of her cursing comes out of her mouth. But also just in another time when she demonstrates a lot of heart is when she's caring for Sophia. You really see the person she could have been, maybe.

[00:37:22] And sadly, I think in the movie she's just the same, right? Like I don't... Yeah, I mean, there's some thought that her and Joni are going to have a relationship. Joni is... it turns out a lesbian.

[00:37:39] I think she's going to have that out pretty early in season one when a young Kristen Bell comes to town and takes advantage of the fact that she's a lesbian. And almost but definitely doesn't rip off Sy Tolliver.

[00:37:56] And that's where you see the evil of Sy Tolliver right there. And how he deals with Kristen Bell and her brother. But yeah, like she... It seemed like in season two and into season three that they could be like a couple almost.

[00:38:12] But I guess it didn't turn out that way. You find that in the movie. And it's kind of cute, like the way that Joni brings her out of her shell. Like it seems as if Jane also based on a historical character. Joni? Joni is? No, Calamity Jane.

[00:38:33] Yeah. It seems as if she wouldn't even have realized she was lesbian. But there's some point when Joni is bathing her, I think, or maybe afterwards she says, well go ahead and kiss me if that's what you're going to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. It's quite wonderful.

[00:38:54] Like I can't stop you. You have me helplessly. Fine, fine. Let's do this. Yeah, and you really end up caring for her even though she is the worst self-defeating person. There's a really sweet scene I think in the second season when... But possibly the third when she is...

[00:39:17] So the Seth Bullock's wife is running a school and brings her in kind of as a guest speaker to the kids. And she's so nervous, but she gets herself cleaned up and then the kids love her and she's so proud and it's just beautiful.

[00:39:37] It's like one of those real moments of light in that show. Yeah, and it's really tender like the way that she cared for Wild Bill Hickock. At one point she has his coat and that's like her ultimate possession. You know, she's... Both Charlotte and her. Yeah, right.

[00:39:55] Robin Weigert is the actress's name and I think that she delivers one of the best performances in the show. Alright, here's my cheat. You didn't cheat. I didn't, yeah. I saved mine for later because it's kind of a minor character. So Dan Dordi, Johnny and Jewel.

[00:40:18] Now I'm grouping them together. Jewel was my cheat, so let's... Yeah, Jewel was my cheat. Low-key one of the best. Yeah, great, great character. I grouped these three together because they all...

[00:40:34] With a slight exception of Dan are targets of just verbal abuse, constant verbal abuse from Al Swearingen. And yet they are so loyal to him. Johnny, right? Johnny, yeah. Johnny, Jewel and Dan Dordi. Dan Dordi is kind of his right-hand man. He's his wee-bay from the wire.

[00:40:55] Like he's a rock, he's solid. Johnny and Jewel are more like Johnny's the bartender when he starts out and kind of second in to Dan. Jewel is the crippled, that's how she's referred to, maid. She cleans up, she makes breakfast, she just does.

[00:41:15] And she has this bad leg that she's constantly dragging around which Dan hates. And that makes her seek out the doctor in season one to get a new brace that will help her walk better.

[00:41:34] And one of the reasons she gives is she doesn't want to annoy Al by dragging around her leg anymore. You're right, Al, when Doc tells Al that he's made a brace.

[00:41:44] And the only thing he says is, is that going to stop her from fucking making noise every time she walks? Yeah. And I think it's in the finale, the one you just watched, right? When she and Doc dance at... Oh, I don't know if it was in that.

[00:41:59] Maybe, maybe. Yeah. Now I don't remember. That's beautiful. Because I cut it off, but like, early. But she's great. Johnny is just kind of an airhead, but very funny and... Right, he's such a dits. He's there, he is there for comic relief.

[00:42:16] And also that, he's also there at the... Like, he's one of the saddest characters at the end of season three when they kill the prostitute Jen. I think her name is Jen or Jenny instead of Trixie because Al won't give up Trixie. Yes.

[00:42:37] And so they kill someone that he clearly loved, Johnny, and he has to suck it up. And that's one of the worst things. Like, the whole end of season three is awful in terms of how you feel for the characters, but that's the worst.

[00:42:52] And Dan Dordy, I love these kinds of characters who are just, I am with you, right or wrong, no matter what. And when he goes out and beats the shit and kills actually in a man-to-man combat, the right hand man of hers.

[00:43:07] The craziest, it's seared in my memory, that point scene. Yeah. So I've put them all there loyal to Dan, targets of verbal abuse, like on a loop, but I love them all too. And they take it in stride. I mean, the jewel, the actress is actually disabled.

[00:43:29] If you're as old as us, you might remember her from facts of life. She was there even back then. When Doc gives her a brace and she smiles, it is just one of the most heartwarming things. She takes it all in stride.

[00:43:49] The three characters you mentioned take it all in stride, but Jewel is unflappable in her cheeriness. One of the people who is shit on the most by life and by Al. Yeah. Johnny sometimes just looks confused when he's getting yelled at. He's high on incompetence.

[00:44:10] My dog Omar is like that. It's like I'm yelling at Omar and it's not even fully registering to him that I'm angry at him. He just kind of looks at me and blinks. And that's kind of how I see Johnny sometimes.

[00:44:28] Sometimes he knows that he's fucked up, but he rarely knows why he fucked up. Well, he's not, and he's not burdened by being intelligent in the way that's,

[00:44:37] like it seems like a real bliss to his ignorance until that time that you mentioned where he's told basically it's either him or this woman. And he's not going to pick. And he's very good-hearted, you know, like that's more than Dan even.

[00:44:54] Like Dan I think is willing to do some pretty bad things. Johnny really, I mean he may end up doing some bad things, but it's not in his nature to be a bad guy. Yeah, right. Okay, so... That's my whole cheat. I'm done with cheating.

[00:45:13] Oh good. That was our number three? Is that right? That was my number four. But you're on number three. Okay, my number three, Mr. Wu. I had to put Mr. Wu on there. He's my first honorable mention. Yeah, he's a fairly minor character.

[00:45:34] But the scenes with Wu and Swaringin are among my favorite. Swaringin scenes. It's like Pete Deadwood is Wu and Al. So Mr. Wu is the Chinese, like he's basically the Swaringin of Chinatown. He runs everything in Chinatown.

[00:45:57] So he has to deal with Swaringin because the Chinese part of town brings a lot to the economy and they have to cooperate. There's a lot of prejudice against Chinese people and Swaringin respects him in a way that most of the white characters don't respect the Asian characters.

[00:46:18] And he's also high in competence, but he never speaks a word, a real word of English. He says some broken things in his English.

[00:46:30] But one of my favorite scenes is when there are, he is, so two Chinese people have been killed and Wu is demanding blood for blood, right? Eye for an eye. And so he wants two white guys killed.

[00:46:46] And Swaringin at first refused them because, as respectful as he is, obviously a Chinaman isn't worth the life of a white. So he finally... He says maybe they are, but the town won't accept them. Yeah, he does things like that.

[00:47:05] Like he makes them enter and exit through the back, not because he, Swaringin cares. It's because of what other people think. And Mr. Wu, when he's demanding justice, he's learned from Al, I guess, what words to say. He says, To cocksucker! Yeah, he says cocksucker a lot.

[00:47:27] And Swaringin. Swaringin. Mr. Wu, you get the idea that he cares a lot for his community. He's taking care of them, but he's also pretty fucking ruthless. Whenever the town needs to dispose of a body, they give it to Mr. Wu so the pigs die will eat them.

[00:47:55] So just because he brings in so many good scenes, I've picked Mr. Wu. So this is the actor, he's Keon Young. And he was recently in Michelin... Oh sorry, Men in Black 3. Also playing Mr. Wu. But what I was going to say about him is,

[00:48:22] the writer, he does a lot of TV recaps. Why am I blanking on his name? It used to be for the Newark Star Ledger, then for Uproxx, Alan something. He wrote a book on Sopranos, Alan Sepinwall. And he would do these recaps of Deadwood like afterwards.

[00:48:47] He did it when it first came out, but then he did it for people who have already seen it and were doing a rewatch. And Wu along with a bunch of other actors would go in the comments and talk about the show. And Keon Young talked...

[00:49:05] Was really upfront about how some people might be seeing his character as racist because of the cock-suck-up. And Swidgen, he was very thoughtful about it, very reflective and explained why he didn't think this was racist.

[00:49:22] And one thing I will say about this show is, I don't remember anyone getting mad at it for any of the politically incorrect things that it does. And it does pretty much all of them. Like anything you can imagine it does.

[00:49:42] I mean they get away with a lot in that it's any reasonable person who understands the historical context. I think wouldn't object. It doesn't feel objectionable when you're sucked into the world of Deadwood. It feels sad that people are treated that way, but yeah.

[00:50:07] But so you could also say, well people were racist in 1876, which is certainly true. But it takes joy and pleasure in all the various ways it can be like anti-Semitic, racist.

[00:50:25] I mean like it doesn't just kind of accept it as like it revels in its ability to do that this show. But yet still I think people are okay with it because these characters are treated with respect. Right, yeah.

[00:50:43] Alright my number three is, and I'd be surprised if he wasn't on your list, E.B. Farnum. Yeah, he was my next one. Alright so let's talk about E.B.

[00:50:55] When you said anti-Semitism, when E.B. was running for mayor again, I think, his speech delivers this anti-Semitic rant. And he thinks he's trying to be sly about it but he makes this gesture to his nose. He's pointing out that Saul Starr is a Jew.

[00:51:21] Everything that comes out of his mouth. It's unclear why E.B is, well maybe it is clear but he's intelligent. He's not dumb. He's well spoken. He just doesn't have the right personality type to be a leader. He wants to be.

[00:51:44] I actually have a long quote from him on this issue and he has some great monologues. But here he's talking to Richardson who is the one person treated with less respect.

[00:51:57] Well I don't know if he's treated with less respect but he's kind of like an idiot in the old sense of the word. Yeah, right. Like in the Dostoevsky's. An imbecile. An imbecile that's the word. Yes exactly. He's kind of an imbecile.

[00:52:13] So E.B Farnham who can't get the respect of anybody in town really, it treats him like shit but also treats him as a sounding board.

[00:52:23] So when he's treating him like shit he says to him could you have been born Richardson and not egg hatched as I've always presumed? He also says did your mother hover over you snaggletooth than doting as you now hover over me?

[00:52:44] But E.B's, the thing that I show people to give them the example of the language of Deadwood is E.B scrubbing the blood off of the floor. Wait E.B does that because Al is constantly scrubbing. Yeah it's when E.B is doing it.

[00:53:04] It's toward the beginning and he's just monologuing about how he has been lowered to being the one to scrub blood. So here's I think like a little monologue that he gives that is very true to his character.

[00:53:22] So he's talking to Richardson here using him as a sounding board and thinking of possibly betraying Al in favor of Hearst who is stronger but he doesn't feel good about it. So he says it is no disloyalty to be a realist Richardson.

[00:53:43] We are mortal when hopes for the best, when perseveres, one reevaluates constantly, one is an asshole if one doesn't. Loyalty expanded is not loyalty betrayed. I contemplate no disloyalty to Al Swarangin, I feel exposed, I don't like being weak and I know that I am.

[00:54:02] I yearn to rely on a stronger will, I fear what I'm capable of in its absence whereas you Richardson know nothing of yourself. Are you shitting or going blind or on foot or horseback? You vile fucking lump. That's great.

[00:54:19] But like he is very self aware and the thing that he's aware of is that he is not a strong person. Yeah, he doesn't have as much dignity as he tries to have. He does not have the guts to get things done. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:54:36] Can I just give a little bit of the blood scrubbing scene? Sure, absolutely. This is when he says, why should I reward EB? He's pretending to be Swarangin.

[00:54:45] Why should I reward EB with some small fractional participation in the claim or let him even lay by a little security or source of continuing income for his declining years?

[00:54:54] What's he ever done for me except let me terrify him every goddamn day of his life till the idea of bowel regularity is a forlorn fucking hope? That's just a show like that's just like a normal like if that's not like one of the that's just like that.

[00:55:14] There's like 10 of those that just come at you every episode just these works of perfect like perfectly articulated brilliance is just awesome. It's amazing. Yeah. He's a great character. He's a comic. He's comic relief too. He really is the butt of everybody's jokes. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:55:36] And you feel bad for him because he wants to be stronger than he is. He wants to be better than he is. He just can't bring himself to actually do those things. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:55:49] He is as you said just intelligent and self aware enough to know exactly how badly he's mocked by everybody. Yeah. Oh yes, he knows. He knows too well. And I just love his clothing.

[00:56:06] You know like a he's always dressed formally formally but you know there's a little dust on it. You know it's like a little little frayed a little dusty.

[00:56:17] He's like when Eliza Doodle little shows up at Henry Higgins' house and my fair lady you know like dressed how she thinks it is proper. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about right now. Well, so that was my number two. Two? Yeah. All right.

[00:56:40] So I'll give my number two and that is Ellsworth. Yeah. He's played by Jim Beaver probably the most thoroughly decent character. Just good hearted but also strong enough to actually bring about good things. He is foul mouthed but big hearted. I mean he marries Alma because...

[00:57:11] The way that he cleans up from the beginning of the show sort of to the Alma parts is quite incredible like yeah but good hearted. Best heart, maybe the best heart on the whole show. I think so.

[00:57:26] And you know he marries Alma knowing that she is pregnant with another man's child and he is going to be the husband that everybody knows is not the one that Alma loves. Right. And not the one that she is having sex with. Right.

[00:57:43] And he's also really good with Sophia, the adopted daughter of Alma and they are a very good team.

[00:57:54] And when he is broken hearted and betrayed it is when she goes back to doping and he feels like he has to stay away from the house and even stay away from Sophia. It is a real stomach punch not to mention what happens at the end of...

[00:58:14] Yeah but I guess we don't have to spoil what happens to him later. But yeah. But my quote from him and you know you could just look up Ellsworth quotes but it's very short. And fuck us all anyway for the limber dick cock suckers we are.

[00:58:34] I love it. He's also high in competence. Like he's the one who is tasked with assessing the land of Alma for gold to reconnoiter as they say or reconnoiter the land. And so he's a working man but he is as you say like he's strong, he's not weak.

[00:59:02] He doesn't... he's not one of the town fools. He's not one of the people out for gold who lives at the expense of others. He gives an honest reconnoitering and he just plays the honest man role so well.

[00:59:22] Yeah but without being like pious or sanctimonious in any way. He can swear with the best of them, he can insult people with the best of them but he's just too good.

[00:59:38] Like there's a way... he's almost too good for the show in the sense that he really won't... He's not like Dan who will do horrible things if he thinks that's what Al wants.

[00:59:51] I don't think people could turn to him for that because it's just too much against his nature. Yeah, yeah good. Alright my number one... Yep.

[01:00:03] My number one is again this list was hard. I've omitted people that I really liked but I never had a doubt that this would be my number one. And that's Doc Cochran. Doc Cochran is a tortured soul.

[01:00:20] He is constantly irritable but nonetheless performing every duty of his as a medical doctor for the community, the only medical doctor for the community, performing every single duty of his truly caring for every single patient.

[01:00:38] To the point where he knows... he's one of the only people who curses at Al without having bad shit happen to him. Yeah. Because... and when he curses you know it's because he needs to get the fucking attention of the person who he's cursing at, right?

[01:00:54] He curses at Jewel when he gives her the boot because... and he says explicitly this because I need you to pay attention to this. If you have any symptoms come to me because you'll lose your leg. Right. Yeah.

[01:01:07] Tortured. He's a civil... turns out he's a Civil War doctor and as people might know the Civil War was just a fucking game. It was just a fucking bloody, bloody war in the United States where medicine was... you know this was pre-Penisiland days.

[01:01:28] People were routinely having to solve limbs on the battlefield so he saw the worst of the worst and I think that he's clearly suffering from post-traumatic stress. This... sometimes he's barely holding it together and... Yeah he's like caught... he gets really sick in one of the seasons.

[01:01:46] Yeah, yeah that's right. But his cynicism combined with his... his cynicism doesn't prevent him from doing the good things that he's trying to do. The care that he shows for the Reverend when he's in his seizures is just one example of this.

[01:02:07] And he's often clearly selfless like when he's dealing with the pox outbreak, you know, he's putting himself at risk for the sake of healing others.

[01:02:16] But the prayer that he gives when the Reverend is dying, the scene that we already mentioned, I'm going to read a little bit of it. He says, if I was a more adaptable primate or one of your regular petitioners, I suspect I wouldn't feel this pain I guess.

[01:02:33] I'd have a wad of cartilage covering the patella protecting me from this discomfort. Jesus Christ. Just please God take that minister. What conceivable godly use is his protracted suffering to you? What conceivable godly use?

[01:02:47] What conceivable godly use was the screaming of all those men? Did you need to hear their death agonies to know your omnipotence? Mama, mother, find my arm. Mommy, mommy. Mommy, they shot my leg off. It hurts so bad. It hurts so bad. Yeah, it makes me weep. Yeah.

[01:03:06] Yeah, he's some combination of Jesus and like a Kantian wet dream because he does all his, he does his duties as a doctor flawlessly. I mean just, he will never take time out for himself. He's always putting himself for his patients and that's really what he cares about.

[01:03:30] And he also seems to endure and take a lot of suffering on behalf of others. That's right. You're right. He's taking a selfless battering. He is constantly sacrificing himself. I like this Kantian wet dream slash Jesus. This is my goal in life.

[01:03:54] That's true. That's what you want. I think the Kantian wet dream is what kept him off my list, although he's a very high honorable mention. I love Doc and he also, yeah, when he would, when he had to be foul mouthed, he could do it.

[01:04:10] Yeah. Yep. Oh, he definitely, and he's, I like him because he is not, he is not an Ellsworth who's always sort of gentle and kind to the people he's caring about.

[01:04:23] He's never gentle and he's hardly ever kind in word. He's always, or in demeanor. He's always just pissed off something. Terrascible. Right? Yeah. Him and Jane are a good match in that way. Yeah. That's right.

[01:04:37] When they're both taking care of people, they're both like kind of insulting them at the same time, but you know that they're looking out like there's nothing more that they care about than their best interests.

[01:04:49] So I had to, I forgot. I should have asked you if you could have guessed my number one. It sounds like you probably couldn't have. I would not have. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I would have thought that your number one was my number one.

[01:05:00] Is your number one Charlie Utter? No. He's my another just sad honorable mention for me. Okay. Then I'm not sure who your number one is unless it's, you're sticking to your people and picking Saul Starr. No. It's Trixie.

[01:05:17] Yeah. I deeply considered Trixie. But yeah, go ahead and tell us why you, I'll tell you why. I mean, I think Trixie is, you know, if Alice Waringen is the like obvious, like he's, he's the man that is keeping this town going.

[01:05:36] Trixie is his, the only one who comes close to being his match. And the fact that Al loves her and the fact that Al is letting her go and be with Saul Starr. Thank you, Jews get the competent scores. Saul Starr of David. Am I right?

[01:05:56] But she is also another one like Ellsworth and their friends utterly foul mouthed, but so good hearted starting when she helps Alma get off Lottiman, which is I guess the heroine of the time.

[01:06:15] And goes against and in fact, you know, goes against, goes behind Al's back in doing this. He wants her to still stay addicted and she risks a lot of pain and suffering to help Alma.

[01:06:31] She's there to make sure that Al sends her there to make sure that she stays addicted.

[01:06:37] And, but when she sees that Alma really wants to break it, she and just the whole, the whole way that her and Saul Starr is relationship develops and the fact that she knows at some level that Al loves her and still has this relationship

[01:06:57] and she's just a strong, good kind of beautiful character. Just the way she insults Saul Starr, she has some great when she's being taught how to keep the books in their bank. She will let out a lot of good anti-Semitic slurs and insults, but she loves him.

[01:07:20] And I the quote that I picked for her was, I think she says this to Saul, Tread lightly who lives in hope of pussy. Yeah, Trixie is, if there's a soul of the town, I think she's the soul of the town.

[01:07:42] She is, Deadwood can't be Deadwood without her. Like some of the other characters as great as they are aren't so central. As you said, her relationship with Swaringen is a big part of showing us who Swaringen is.

[01:08:02] But Trixie on her own, her character development over the seasons is really nice to see. She is clearly a very intelligent person who has just found herself in these circumstances. And Saul is what we call Captain Savoho, he saved her.

[01:08:25] Yeah, she's Al's bottom bitch, but I guess and this is true of a lot of bottom bitches, there's deep love there too. And respect and she respects Al.

[01:08:41] And I think it's not a surprise that the movie kind of centers around her and her wedding to Saul and even her pregnancy. I get the sense that she's a character that, what's his name? David Milch really loved and really wanted to give a good send off too.

[01:09:05] But you're a soul of the town, that's exactly right. She's the soul of Deadwood in some ways more than Al because she is, she doesn't have the stains that Al has. Right, but she does represent sort of the bad parts and the good parts of the town.

[01:09:29] Yeah, I can't add to that phrase, soul of the town. Couple interesting things about our lists, neither Seth Bullock or Alma. I was thinking that same thing, but quickly why I didn't have Tricks on my list is that she was close,

[01:09:50] but I didn't enjoy her performance as much as the others. But in any objective list where we're not just picking our favorite people, she like Mr. Woo shouldn't be on my list, it should be. But that's the only reason. That's interesting because I think it's a fantastic performance

[01:10:11] and she's one of the few of the actors that I haven't seen in other shows. I have seen her in something, fuck what was it? But it would be hard, I just think of her as Trixie.

[01:10:26] I didn't think there was a false note to her performance at all. They're all great and I'm looking at my honorable mentions now and it's just, I can't believe that someone's good.

[01:10:44] No, I know. But I do want to talk about it because I was thinking the exact same thing. No Seth Bullock and Seth Bullock is ostensibly the main character, right? And it's not that I don't like him, I like the actor quite a bit.

[01:11:02] In fact, justified is if you're itching to see a show and you haven't seen it, justified actually has a lot of the actors from Deadwood making an appearance in justified. And Seth Bullock, I mean the actor plays, Timothy Olyphant is essentially Seth Bullock but in today's...

[01:11:21] He's great. Timothy Olyphant is great. He was recently on Mark Maron's WTF podcast and he just seems like the best guy ever. Yeah, he really does. But yeah, he's very, he's kind of humorless which I think probably kept him off both of our lists.

[01:11:42] Yeah, his... I don't... Yeah, it's weird because the things that he does I think are like both I like and really important to the plot. You know, he's... Swarovski sort of needs a foil and he is always there.

[01:12:00] Component. Yeah. And he's willing to beat, you know, to beat someone's ass if he needs something. Too willing. Sometimes. Yeah, too willing. But yeah, I think that he is his humorlessness. He doesn't give us... In fact, he's written to give short phrases.

[01:12:22] He doesn't give us as many of the rich dialogue as much as the rich dialogue is the other characters. Alma also not on our lists. She found her character to be annoying. I can't... I don't know if there's nothing other to say.

[01:12:40] She is just a thorn in people's side. I mean, she has her moments when she steps up for the city, you know, for... Not for the city, for the town and doesn't take her... You know, doesn't sell her plot at least initially to Hearst

[01:13:03] and she does it to keep the city going and to keep the city or the town safe from Hearst. That is... That's really heroic because she's taking... She knows that she could be killed for that.

[01:13:17] And yet, and you know, their whole love story, her and Seth Bullock is a big part of the show. Yet she did not make either of our lists and I suspect she didn't come close. No, no, she didn't. It was clear to me that she wouldn't make it.

[01:13:38] And I shouldn't say... I was a bit dismissive when I said that she's a thorn in everybody's side because I think that she shows strength as a character. I just didn't particularly... There's nothing that made me like her. I don't know.

[01:13:51] Yeah, and it's... You know, those are two big characters with a lot of screen time and it's not that it's bad when they're on screen. It's just not... It doesn't... It's not as great as when everybody else is on screen. Right. Right.

[01:14:07] I'm gonna read some of our other... I'll just go through... Or you wanna go through yours? I'll just solve a great character. Yeah, he is the straight man in the comedic sense. He is always sort of... He is the most balanced man in camp.

[01:14:29] He's normal. It feels like he's me, like if I were there. I'd just be like, whoa, come on. There's a nice moment that they give him where he has to train Silas to pretend to be somebody who knows about like treasury business or something like that

[01:14:49] and Al has been pretty mean to him because he resents the fact that he's having this relationship with Trixie but then Al just says, look, we're not doing this for us. We're doing this for the good of Dadwood and then he takes a moment

[01:15:05] and he's like, all right, I'll school him. It's a moment of dignity. He kind of pulls up his suspenders and... Yeah, that's funny. I had Doc Ockron, Charlie Utter. Charlie, I feel like you should have made one of our lists. Charlie should be on the list.

[01:15:23] I feel like Charlie not being on our lists is a mirror of the way that Charlie just never gets too far on the show. Yeah. He's overlooked on the show and, yeah, in our list, but he's a great, great character. Like so loyal, so unbelievably loyal.

[01:15:43] And kind. You can tell that he's still rough in his manner but he actually cares. He's so vulnerable and cares so much about Jane and gets shit on by Jane. You could tell that he was, you know, he was Wild Bill's best friend

[01:16:02] and that Wild Bill respected him that much as his friend says something about who he is. And you believe it? You believe it, yeah. And Bullock comes to really turn to him, right? He's somebody who can also get things done when he needs to.

[01:16:19] Yeah, when he needs to. They don't turn to him that often, but when they do they know they can count on him and he's very true. There's a bunch of these characters who are just true. Like you know you can count on them. Yeah, yeah.

[01:16:34] I like somebody who made it on mine, although very short lived is Wild Bill. I think that Wild Bill, the actor who portrays him in the way he portrays him, has such a presence on screen that he is as alpha as you can get.

[01:16:51] He just looks like somebody who is respected. What's the character's name? It's Echaridine, right? Yeah, Echaridine is his name. Keith Echaridine, yeah. And he has this long flowing hair, you know, and good posture and talks with authority and never lets anybody walk over him.

[01:17:17] And I think that his presence resonates through the remainder of the series, especially at least Jane's mind. I think that he's even though he's no longer on screen. He is suicidal, you know. Like he's trying to kill himself in season one.

[01:17:38] He is on this self-destructive path both Jane and Charlie Utter know that he's on this self-destructive path. And it's breaking their heart. And there's this one speech he gives where he just tells them like, you can't save me essentially.

[01:17:52] It's not in those words, it's all subtext, but it's... Yeah, yeah. I think Eliza, who was texting me her list, she ended up changing it. But one of the things that she said that I liked was, Joni when she's not really depressed was her number five.

[01:18:13] And I think that's like, that's right. Like Joni was a good, a great character and I love that actress. She was also in Tremay. She's great in Tremay. But she went through this gloomy period that is really,

[01:18:30] I think, supposed to represent some sort of realistic depiction of depression. And I think you get it. You get the weight of it, the heaviness of it. But it is a little bit of a bummer sometimes on the show. Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, I know where I saw Trixie.

[01:18:51] She was on an episode of both of Watchmen and Star Trek Enterprise. Oh, cool. George Hearst by the way, and that actress, Gerald McCrany, great performance. And even though he represents like soulless capitalism at its worst, that's quite a performance. And it is, it's a commanding.

[01:19:17] Like he commands the screen when he's on the screen and he's not unfun to watch. Like even if you hate him with every bone in your body because he is... That he can make us hate him that much.

[01:19:29] In fact, I remember sort of like shortly after one of the rewatches that I had seeing him in something else and being like, I can't, I can't like this guy. That's how good he was at being a villain.

[01:19:40] Like I started not liking the actor in his other roles. Yeah, yeah. Right. Like he was one of the guys from Simon and Simon. Oh really? Yes. One of the Simons. We didn't talk about E.B.'s performance on the New Heart show.

[01:19:57] Oh yeah, this is my brother Darrell. This is my other brother Darrell. I'm Larry. I put on my list Silas. Yeah. For one, I love Titus Welliver. I don't know what it is about him. I think that his performances are, you know, he's this sort of quiet guy,

[01:20:19] but real, you know, just very powerful, I guess. Like you can tell he gets his shit done and he's not going to take anybody's shit, but he's a quiet type, right? He doesn't talk a whole lot.

[01:20:35] And Titus Welliver in his other roles, like he's in this TV show called Bosh, which I've mentioned before. Yeah. I just really like the actor. Yeah, the show just kind of abandons him a little bit.

[01:20:48] Like he's really important in the first season and a lot of the second season. And then the show just kind of, it's like it's too much. Like they already have Dan. Yeah, yeah. And there are overlap of like loyal, competent guy to Al.

[01:21:05] Yeah, Dan and Silas kind of have to fight out who's going to be the, you know. And it's funny when they're doing that at first, but then when they kind of work it out, there's nothing that much more for Silas to do. Yeah, I think you're right.

[01:21:18] There was just too many people. I had Miss Isringhazen. She was kind of hot. The Pinkerton. Pinkerton. She's such a bitch in this show. She is. Yeah, I had Jane. I had a lot of yours that weren't on my list. Si, Jane.

[01:21:41] It broke my heart to leave Jane off the list. Yeah. Well, I'm glad I included her then because she deserves it. You know, there is... By the way, you're sexist for not having Trixie on your list. Well, I had Jane, but maybe. That's true.

[01:21:55] Are you counting her as a boy? I had on my list Eddie Sawyer, who is... Yeah, Ricky J. Ricky J. And I love Ricky J and Ricky J's in a lot of movies as sort of this kind of guy. He runs the tables for Si.

[01:22:16] He's sort of a tragic figure. Yes, very much. Yeah, but I just love Ricky J. And he also died last year. He's gay, right? Si alludes to him liking young boys. Right. Yeah. Which... And you could just see his heartbreak when he says that.

[01:22:37] It's like he's pulled out the card. He's pulled out the worst thing he can say to Eddie Sawyer. Ricky J. Was a magician also and he spent a lot of time in Ithaca. Did he? I didn't know that.

[01:22:53] He had that show that was on when I was living in New York for a long time, like Ricky J. and his 52 assistants. Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. He's in a lot of David Mammet movies. He is. David Mammet loves him. Yeah. Yeah, good. That's good.

[01:23:12] I'm glad you put that in. That's great. Let me read Eliza's because I said I would. So she also had Trixie as number one. She is not... And also had Ellsworth at number two. Nice. Charlie, she had Charlie Utter. Good. Number three, Seth Bullock. Good.

[01:23:30] That's nice for Timothy Holtzand at number four and perhaps to make me feel better. Sol Star is number five. Yeah. She has real pride. And then who else? Those are the five. So she bumped Joni off the list.

[01:23:51] And then she said Trixie number one, Ellsworth number two, Charlie Utter number three, Seth Bullock number four, Sol Star number five. Sorry I forgot that she had put Trixie on this. Yeah, good list. You know who I'm surprised didn't make one of our lists either?

[01:24:05] Not so surprised but I thought he might is Merrick. Yeah, I like Merrick too. No good... It's just like he's not a top five guy but he's an awesome character. Yeah, he plays this fairly important role in the town and he is annoying to most people.

[01:24:25] He's the journalist who keeps the paper of record for Deadwood. And he is also the principal in Ferris Bueller. So how can you not like him? And he's very much... The character reminded me of the biographer and Unforgiven. Another stand-in for us sort of.

[01:24:45] But he's a much more likable character than the guy from Unforgiven. But he has that same sort of I'm a writer, I can't actually deal with what's going on in this town. The depth that it will sink is just not...

[01:25:03] It's not in me either for good or for the bad side. I'm trying to do the best that I can. Alright, any final words? No, this is a great show. If you've seen it, I hope we did some justice to it in this rather long episode.

[01:25:23] Bonus episode, they're not usually this long and as always I'm gonna do them. So, but yeah, if you haven't seen it, please watch it. We get a lot of listeners telling us that they watched it on our recommendation and they are...

[01:25:41] I cannot emphasize how much you won't regret it. There are some shows that I think of as amazing, but they're of their time a little bit. And people... but this will not regret. Another show is like The Leftovers, which is probably the topic of our next bonus episode.

[01:26:00] Where I love it, I'm not 100% sure that everybody who watches it will love it, you know? That's right. Cool. Alright, well join us for another bonus episode. Thank you so much for your support. You are literally what keeps this show going. Thank you.