Episode 291: Shoe Shining

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Very Bad Wizards is a podcast with a philosopher, my dad, and psychologist, Dave Pizarro, having an informal discussion about issues in science and ethics.

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Please note that the discussion contains bad words that I'm not allowed to say, and knowing my dad, some very inappropriate jokes.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_09]: Cunnilingus and psychiatry brought us to this.

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_06]: You can have a brain.

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_08]: You're a very bad man.

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm a very good man.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_09]: Just a very bad wizard.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Welcome to Very Bad Wizards, I'm Tamler Sommers from the University of Houston.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Dave, I'm pretty sure nobody could call you brat, but could someone maybe call you very demure?

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Wait, what's the very demure reference?

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_03]: I barely know the brat reference.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think that's the new thing.

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like it moved on from brat to very demure.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Like in TikTok or something.

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I don't know because I'm not really on TikTok.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like I'm losing it.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Even the brat stuff, I just sort of nod my head and pretend like I get the reference.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, yeah, yeah, Charlie X whatever.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, totally. I got the reference. Let's move on.

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Please, God.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Even I asked Liza about very demure.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Like even she didn't really know.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_04]: She knew it was on TikTok and it was some...

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's some TikTokter named LeBron, but not LeBron.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Not the actual LeBron?

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think she's trans maybe.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_04]: I was hoping maybe you would know, but I'm usually maybe one step ahead of you.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_04]: What's up, Liza?

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_03]: I think you probably are now.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's sad, even though as our audience should know, you're much older than me.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Happy birthday. You're like a whole year older than me now.

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean a whole five years older than me.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_04]: I think you were right the first time.

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_04]: And speaking of birthdays, it is the Very Bad Wizards 12th birthday pretty much when this releases.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think August 30th of 2012 was our first episode.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_03]: So that's crazy. You believe it?

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_03]: 12 years.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_03]: We're like... how old are we now?

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_03]: We're in sixth grade.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_03]: We're reaching formal operations according to Piaget, I believe is the stage we're at.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, not even close to like Kantian yet, right?

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_03]: No, no.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_03]: It's going to take...

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_03]: It's going to be a long time before we reach that pinnacle.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe like on our 20th anniversary if we're still doing this somehow, like we can just become Kantian and that's it, right?

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Like once you become Kantian, you just transcend?

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, there's a sort of trope in like sci-fi and like Star Trek and stuff where there are beings on other planets that have evolved for so long that they become beings of pure energy.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like that's what we're...

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Beings of pure duty and reason.

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Well, I look forward to it. We'll be, you know, like levitating.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, no.

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_04]: The whole point of this opening segment was to not get sidetracked because we have today on today's episode, we have special guest David Shoemaker, a very long over two hour discussion of Stanley Kubrick's The Shining.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_04]: We're just going to jump straight to that, right?

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, like...

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_04]: We're already testing their patience.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_04]: This was a fun discussion. I don't know, like it's a daunting task to talk about The Shining, but I think we did okay.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I think we did it justice.

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Mr. Grady, you were the caretaker here.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_10]: I'm sorry to differ with you, sir, but you are the caretaker. You've always been the caretaker.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_10]: I should know, sir.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_10]: I've always been here.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_04]: All right. We are here to discuss The Shining and we have a very special guest with us, a good friend of both of us, Dave Shoemaker. Welcome to Very Bad Wizards.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you. It's great to be here.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome, Shu.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Too many Daves on this episode, so Tamler, you're going to have to specify who you're talking to.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe I'll finally call you David.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_04]: So you're a professor now at Cornell University like David, but when I met you, you were at Tulane.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_04]: And in fact, when we recorded our first episode of Very Bad Wizards, I was in New Orleans because thanks to you in part, I got that nice fellowship at Tulane.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_04]: So you have book ended in some way this podcast over its now what, 12 years?

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I think this episode will release almost nearly at like 12th anniversary of our first episode.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_11]: I remember you talking about it and I remember where we were when you were talking about it.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_11]: It's the bar in New Orleans that has it's my grandson's favorite name.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_11]: It's called Cooter Browns and they just can't they can't stop giggling at the Cooter.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_04]: We should mention also that Dave just came out with a book and it's called Wisecracks.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Indeed.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_03]: You've gotten some pretty good press on this.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_03]: People like it. People seem to like it.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, so far.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_11]: There was a nice review essay in the Atlantic by Kieran Satia and Chronicle Higher Education did a nice review essay on it.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_11]: I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop, but so far so good.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's a book about humor like do you feel pressure to like be funny today?

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_11]: No, no, no. Well, I know what the standards are for the show.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_11]: So there we go.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_04]: The first Wisecrack.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, one of our ironclad rules is if you're an author, we don't talk about your book because then we would be what like all the people who email us every day think we are,

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_04]: which is an interview podcast for people on book tours.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_04]: So but we but we like to have people on and here you join the company of people like Ted Chang to talk about something other than their work.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_04]: You actually requested a bunch of movies like three or four of them we had already done.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_04]: So that was hurtful.

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_03]: But it illustrates the good taste that he has.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_04]: It does illustrate the good taste.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_04]: But then one of them was The Shining, which we haven't done, although we've done a documentary on The Shining.

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. What made you suggest The Shining?

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_11]: So I should just preface this by saying I know what your policy is about books and people and you guys asking about the book.

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_11]: But I decided that every question that you ask, I'm going to respond as if you asked about Wisecrack.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_11]: So, you know, Wisecrack is it's really I will not I'm not going to crowbar it in.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_11]: I originally was thinking about horror movies that I love and also trying to think about movies that I will watch whenever I run across them.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_11]: And this is one of the few where if I stumble on it in any scene, it doesn't matter whether it's towards the beginning or towards the end.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_11]: I'm watching it all the way through to the end.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_11]: I just love it. And I've loved it in different ways for different reasons across the years.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_11]: So we're really looking forward to digging in on this.

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you remember when you first saw it?

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_11]: I was trying to think about that. And the answer is no, it was released in 1980.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_11]: And this is before I was of age and my dad was a preacher coming from a very religious family.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_11]: There was no way in hell that they were going to take me to see this.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_11]: So I must have seen it later in maybe I don't know mid 80s or something.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_11]: And it was in the days in which you could rent both VHS tapes and the VCR, which I used to do every weekend and rent a bunch of tapes and bring home and watch.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_11]: So it had to have been on the small screen. And then I try to think about when I've seen it on the big screen.

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_11]: And I think the answer is never, which is very, very sad.

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_11]: I would love to see this thing on the big screen with surround sound.

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_11]: Have either of you?

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I've never seen it on the big screen now.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_04]: No, I did just watch it in my recently set up movie palace, though, which is a really good nice TV with really good sound.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_04]: And that was a different experience.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_04]: But I'll tell you, like I saw this in the 80s too.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Like not when it first came out.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_04]: I was also not of age and never a huge horror movie guy.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_04]: But once I got into Kubrick, you know, of course, then you watch The Shining and it fucking terrified me.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_04]: And I and I watched it on like probably like a twenty four inch colored square color TV and they showed it in that format.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, so pan and scan.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. And then, you know, already by the time I graduated college, I'd seen it a few times and I remember watching it with Jen again on just the shittiest TV like you would almost like I can't believe we used to watch movies on things like that.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_04]: And and and we were and I was completely terrified, completely unnerved by it when then to the point where I thought it was the scariest movie I've ever seen.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_04]: I guess my trajectory is then you get all the parodies.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_04]: You see it a bunch of times, all the impressions of Jack and stuff like that.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_04]: And then it became for me something more to admire, you know, be in awe of the filmmaking and like everything about it.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's a masterful movie.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_04]: But I was it didn't get to me like it got to me that back then except this last two days.

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_04]: I watched it. I watched it yesterday with Eliza just straight through because I didn't want to take notes.

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_04]: And then I watched it again today.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_04]: I haven't been right like since I watched it, like I haven't felt like it hit me at a level that like I'm still not exactly sure how to explain it or I don't and I don't understand it.

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_04]: But like it really hit me on a deep level for whatever reason this time, maybe because it was the best system I've ever watched it.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know. I don't remember at all the first time I watched this.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_03]: In fact, it's so convoluted in my head because I've seen so many YouTube video essays about the making of The Shining that like I can no longer distinguish when I've seen the scenes as part of the movie and the scenes as like things that are being interpreted.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_03]: But I know it was late and I'm not a horror fan either.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Like in fact, I probably like the thing I won't watch the most.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_03]: But like you, Tamler, it's Kubrick and so but it must have been one of the later Kubrick's that I watched because of that reason.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And but I've probably only seen it in my life twice.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And then I watched it also like you yesterday for the full time without notes.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And last night I had the worst sleep I've had in a long time.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And I have an infant. I have a new baby and I'm still like it still was the word I was having like weird fucked up like thoughts going as I was drifting into sleep.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, man, I shouldn't have watched it right before bed.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_03]: There is something as with lots of Kubrick.

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_03]: There is a way that he has of reaching into your unconscious mind and like poking you through with imagery sound whatever it is like there's just something that he's doing to you.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_11]: I think it was this movie that unlocked the Kubrick damn for me.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_11]: And I think so as I had this had to have been either the first or the second Kubrick movie I'd seen.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_11]: And then I went back and saw everything that had been released.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_11]: And this is about the time that Full Metal Jacket came out, too.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_11]: So I was able to go see that was the first Kubrick movie I saw at the theater.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_11]: But a camera and you did I was not a horror fan at all.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_11]: And it's in thinking about it. This has always been categorized as a horror film, but it doesn't share very much in common with the things that you would associate with early horror movies, late 70s, early 80s, where the jump scares and the truly evil villains that never took off the mask.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_11]: They were coming after you with with the knives and things like that.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_11]: It's just it's so much more deeply unsettling for that.

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_11]: I think there's something really strange going on there.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's why I want to. Yeah, it's interesting that it comes out right around the time that like the Friday the 13th.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_04]: And so The Shining kind of comes just as this that whole thing was about to launch and start to dominate horror.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_04]: This is more like Rosemary's baby or something like that in a way it just gets under your skin.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_04]: It sneaks up on you in all sorts of different ways.

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_03]: So what did you guys notice this this on this watch that you hadn't before?

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_11]: I think one of the things that I love about the movie is that is that it has preserved in some respect all of the things that I found striking from the get from the get go.

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, there was there's a cleanness and there's a precision to all of the shots and the filmmaking generally.

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_11]: And the flashes that I remember from early times watching it are still there as striking right now, especially so I'm thinking of the helicopter shots at the beginning

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_11]: and just the vastness of the landscape and the tininess of that little VW as it's going up the hill.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_11]: What has changed, I think, is my appreciation of Shelley DeVille's performance, which is another reason that I wanted to talk about this that Shelley DeVille has recently passed away.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_11]: And I originally found the performance to be completely overwrought and sometimes just silly and kind of detraction distraction or detracted in a way from my enjoyment of the movie.

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_11]: And now I think it's just an incredible performance.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, we know about all the abuse Kubrick put her through to get her to that emotionally wrought state.

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_11]: But I think there's real growth in the character now, which I had not really noticed before.

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_11]: And she winds up being an incredibly strong person.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_11]: So that was the one thing that really that really stuck out to me this time around was that performance.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_11]: I think it's really great.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_04]: I totally agree on that.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I think she's phenomenal.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_04]: I think she's really good, not just in the ones in the scenes where she has to be terrified, but like when she's talking to the psychiatrist in the beginning of the movie, you know, like when just like there's that kind of heartbreaking scene in the middle where she needs some kind of human connection.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_04]: And so she tries to have a conversation with the Forest Service operator over the CB, you know, and she's so good in those in those scenes.

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, when she needs to break down and and and be terrified, she does that very well.

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, of course, probably suffered way more than any actor should have to suffer in order to get to get there.

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, a couple other things that struck me.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_04]: I'll give a very specific one.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_04]: I think this is the first time it became clear to me that Jack also shines like it's not just Danny that shines.

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_04]: It's Jack also shines and it's made clear at the get go that it's hereditary because Scatman Crothers could do it with his with his grandmother.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's not just that he shines, which I swear to God, I'm not sure I fully articulated that to myself.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Like I always thought it's Danny that shines.

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_04]: But I think Jack can too.

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if Jack knows that he can though, like like Danny does.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_04]: But also, like there's a lot of Danny Jack parallels just in terms of how they look, poses they have, their drool and stuff like that.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, this is one thing I'm excited as we get into the details to talk about, like what the connection actually is between Jack and Danny.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_04]: What are we to make of those parallels?

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_04]: The last thing I think is I appreciated the Steadicam.

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_03]: That was going to be mine.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think I ever, I always thought it was cool on the big wheel and cool in the maze or stuff.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_04]: What I never got until like this time around was how much that allows us just to feel like ghosts in the hotel, just like following these people.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_04]: You always get the sense.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_04]: I think this is that feeling of dread that I have like and then have had for the last 24 hours.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Like just knowing that there are these people following and how smoothly they kind of float and follow you.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_04]: It's just such a brilliant idea to make that the central thing in your movie.

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_04]: I love that.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_04]: And then when you get an actual POV shot, that's actually from the point of view of one of the characters, which you really get, it's such a big thing because you're used to always being.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_04]: This kind of spirit in the house watching what's going on.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, not I mean there were very few like there were a handful of films, I guess from what I saw that had used Steadicam at that point.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_03]: But he had the inventor of Steadicam working with him.

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, of course, the camera operator.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, the operator.

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the you know, Kubrick wasn't using it as a gimmick.

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Like he was using it for artistic effect.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what really stood out when it's used that way.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Like you said, like you're floating behind him on the big wheel.

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_03]: You're floating behind him as he's running through the maze.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_03]: I got more this time around.

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_03]: So Steadicam for sure artistically.

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_03]: It's always to me like if I haven't watched a Kubrick film in a long time, like seeing just the framing of the shots and like it's just always fucking so impressive.

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_03]: This time I just got more horror and like horror not in like the genre word like horror as in what the like the fucking horror.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Of this.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that like one of the reasons it felt more like that to me is for some reason, Tamler, I think you might have something to say about relating to this.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_03]: There's something about what Jack is trying to do.

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Yep.

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And the stage of life that he's in that like just touched me a little bit more.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Not that I relate to his like murderous tendencies.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe a little.

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_03]: As far as far as I know.

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_03]: But there, yeah, it just it just hit a little harder this time.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_03]: I do think the performance is like I have mixed feelings about Shelley Duvall's performance.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's a brilliant movie and I think that there's reason to have her perform that way.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I think Jack Nicholson and Shelley Duvall both are kind of being over the top.

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_03]: But it did take me out every once in a while.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_03]: And I watched the behind the scenes.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Have you guys seen Vivian Kubrick's making of?

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Not this time, but I've seen it a couple years ago.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And there is a point where Kubrick is telling Shelley Duvall like don't react to every single time he yells at you.

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Like that's too much.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_03]: But that's a nitpick because I think that I totally agree that it's underrated.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think Kubrick was going for something.

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think that Kubrick, if Kubrick didn't like the performance, he wouldn't have kept it in that way.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_04]: That's a performance he wanted.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, and Nicholson says in that making of something really insightful.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_03]: He says, you know, I've been doing this for a while, like acting.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And people have seen a million times like how people perform and you're striving as an actor toward this realism.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_03]: You can make it more real, make it more real.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And then I work with Kubrick and he says, look, real is fine.

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_03]: But sometimes real just isn't interesting.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And this needs to be interesting, not real.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. Yeah.

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. That's a lot.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_04]: And a lot of like Clockwork Orange is full of these kinds of over the top performances.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Obviously, Dr. Strangelove.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_04]: It's he's not going for realism in that way.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_04]: And when he does, you know, like in the scenes at the beginning of The Shining or which reminded me of all those scenes like with the astronauts talking to each other in 2001.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_04]: It's it's so mundane and boring that it's also not real.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_04]: It's not real that that would be in a movie.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, absolutely.

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_04]: And there's got to be something going on underneath that's like fucked up.

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_03]: There is a dude.

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_03]: He has it down with science how to make a boring conversation with like, I don't know, like to middle to middle aged guys talking to each other about, you know, like the interview.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Like he casts these people perfectly to talk in this like what I associate with like some sort of middle aged 70s like car salesman kind of guy.

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_11]: I was watching this precisely to try to figure out why because it is incredibly mundane and I'm trying to figure out why.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_11]: I won't fast forward to those scenes when I have the opportunity.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_11]: There's something about them that's incredibly gripping and I can't quite figure out what it is.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_11]: I think you're right.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_11]: It's uncanny.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_03]: It's uncanny.

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, it's yeah, that's exactly what it is.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like a little off.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_04]: There's something that's just always a little off by like the guy is like kind of perfectly unctuous.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_04]: And oh, and Bill, the fucking guy Bill next to him.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Like what the fuck is that guy?

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_04]: He's up to something.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_04]: You just get the sense.

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, you're right.

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_11]: It's there's something a little off, but it's not arch or artificial in the way say a David Mamet conversation scene would be.

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_11]: Maybe it would also be about the mundane.

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_11]: But yeah, you're right.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_03]: There's just I think that what's I think that what's off is that nobody would put something like that in a movie otherwise.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I think that's what's off.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's like, wait, why?

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Like when he's just like telling his secretary to get coffee or like bringing in the other guy, there's just something like, wait, why would like nobody would put that in a movie?

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_04]: What do you think?

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_04]: So there's obviously a movie Room 237.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Dave and I did an episode on the documentary Room 237.

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_04]: It's our number 207.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Very bad.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_04]: If you want to go back, we should have planned that.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_11]: There's something slightly off about it.

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_04]: It just shows how people have tried to find all sorts of patterns and explanations and interpretations with this movie.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Most infamously that this is Kubrick's confession for faking the moon landing.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Like what's your grand theory?

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Dave and Dave's I should say.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you have any kind of grand theory of what this movie is ultimately about?

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_11]: I've been trying to think about this in terms of, you know, as I said earlier, the reference to this being thought of as a horror movie.

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_11]: But it's not like horror in the standard kind of horror film genre.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_11]: But it is kind of horror in a boy that's going to sound pretentious in a Lovecraftian kind of sense where the horror is bad that I didn't find that pretentious at all.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_03]: That must mean I'm very pretentious.

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sweet talking you.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_04]: You could go on weird studies next if you keep this up, Dave.

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_11]: Where it's just, you know, it's the universe against us basically.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_11]: And we're totally small in comparison to the universe.

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_11]: And we can be crushed at any time by the universe and things are just really weird all the time with our relation to the world around us and nature and to each other.

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_11]: And so there's just a kind of the horror of the smallness of our reality.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_11]: And I think it comes out in those helicopter shots, right?

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_11]: Where you're supposed to see that this is so, so tiny against the vastness of the world.

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_11]: And things can just happen that you have no control over and that are going to completely upset your expectations.

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_11]: I think here of Halloran coming back and he's there for two seconds before he's axed, which is a very huge difference from the book.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_11]: I imagine we'll talk about some of those.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_11]: But I feel like that's part of it is there's just a general horror of being human in a completely uncaring universe.

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But also actively malevolent.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_11]: Actively, actively malevolent.

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_11]: That's right.

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_11]: And it's also maybe in this goes to what your thoughts earlier about Jack having the shining and his relation to Danny that there's a kind of connection over the generations of a kind of cyclical nature of violence that just keeps repeating itself.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_11]: And so the hotel's doing that and maybe Jack is repeating himself.

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_11]: And so it's in part I think about that.

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_11]: That's what was coming out here, the relationship, just the ongoing never ending cycles of violence.

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_11]: There's a relation to the Indian burial ground.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_11]: This was just a comment.

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_11]: And this is blood coming back at you.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_11]: It's going to keep coming around because of the blood early on.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_04]: For sure.

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_04]: I actually want to talk more about that aspect of it.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's for sure too, like the violence both like the violence of the nation.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_03]: There's a reference to the Donner Party and the people who were isolated and turned on each other.

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_03]: But one thing I didn't know about the Donner Party as I was reading about it was that there were two Native Americans who just got killed in Neaton.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_03]: And nobody really cared that those two Native Americans got killed in the Donner Party.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't know that.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I know.

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, oh shit, maybe there is something to this Native American theory.

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I guess I would always resist an overarching theme other than that.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_03]: It's so obvious.

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_03]: It's just the manifest content of the movie, alienation and isolation.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And us being maybe one step closer to losing it than we think.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_03]: We really do rely on connections with other people and we can lose it.

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not that hard to lose it, which I think is what gives me the sense of horror in watching it.

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_03]: That our connection to reality might be just a little weaker than we might otherwise.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_11]: More tenuous than we imagine.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_11]: Do you take Jack at the very beginning to be just one little thread away from...

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_04]: It seems so, right?

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_04]: It seems so, yeah.

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Actually that relates to my...

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm on Dave's side in terms of not wanting to give a grand theory.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_04]: But I think it's undeniable that this is built on top.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_04]: All of this is happening on top of a Native American burial ground, right?

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_04]: And America is happening on top of what we did to the genocide of the Native Americans.

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_04]: That's just such a theme and the house I think is a big symbol of that.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_04]: And the thing about the house is that it is looking to corrupt people,

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_04]: but it takes somebody that is ready to be corrupted.

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_04]: That is almost looking to be corrupt.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think what it preys on is these fundamentally weak men, these failures.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Life didn't work out for them and they're looking for somebody to blame

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_04]: and they're looking to not take responsibility.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_04]: And Jack is that. He's a fuck up as a person.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_04]: And he's been abusive and you get the sense a lot of his anger is just weakness coming out as aggression.

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_04]: And the house is...

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_04]: The hotel?

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry, yeah, the hotel.

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_04]: The house.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_04]: You know when he says orders from the house.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_04]: I think of it as the house.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_04]: But it's the hotel.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_04]: The hotel can swallow up people like that with no problem.

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_04]: If anything, the hotel is just frustrated with Jack.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Like that he's such a fuck up that he's not going to be able to do this.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_04]: That was the other thing.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like the hotel from the get go doesn't trust that Jack is up to this.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_04]: And the hotel is right actually.

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I was just going to add to that one of the things that I guess I must have thought about before.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_03]: But that the hotel has the shining.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_03]: That a place can have intentionality is just I think a cool thing that I just hadn't thought that much about.

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, me neither.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's even more striking given that Scott Man-Krothers literally says it.

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_04]: He literally says it.

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of the crazy theories are literally set.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Like the Native American one or that the hotel shines.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Or there's probably a hundred videos about the geographical impossibility of the hotel.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_04]: And then you just hear an Alfhand remark as Shelley Duvall is touring the kitchen.

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_04]: She's like this whole place is like one big maze.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_04]: And Kubrick has said he mirrored running in the hotel with running in the maze.

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_04]: So of course a real hotel can't be an actual maze.

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_03]: The other thing I think I put it in our notes, I couldn't help but see the shoe you mentioned cycles of violence.

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_03]: It seems very plausible that there's sexual abuse going on.

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I want to know what you guys thought.

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe we can talk about it as we get to some of the scenes that might imply that.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_03]: But even from the beginning when the doctor is examining Danny with his like pants off, I'm like, oh, does she suspect that kind of abuse?

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I wonder, you know, and I don't know that there is a right answer to whether or not sexual abuse is going on.

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_03]: But that fucking furry that's blowing the.

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_03]: If there's an overarching theme, it's that Kubrick was a furry.

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, and the way she confronts Jack with you did this to him when Danny comes back from room 237, just like a zombie.

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_11]: And you that you did this to him accusation seems to be clearly to be much more about kind of sexual abuse than it does.

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_11]: Really?

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_11]: Whatever else it might be on the face.

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Well, and whatever kind of abuse it is, the horror like nothing about what you were saying earlier, David, about Shelley Duvall.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_03]: This movie is really about Wendy.

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like the shining is happening with Danny and Jack.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Like that's their truth.

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_03]: But they're like the things that Wendy has to overcome.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that one of the things that's visceral is that that she has to confront the fact that her husband might be abusive.

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And we know just how well people can self deceive when it comes to things like that, even though she knows she's making excuses for it with the doctor.

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_03]: But now she's forced to confront that she might be implicated in this if she doesn't do something about it.

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_11]: Is that her only experience that we know of of something supernatural?

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_11]: And that's right near the end.

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. Yeah, I mean, there's a bunch after that.

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_04]: That's her first one.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_04]: That's the first one.

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_04]: But there's a bunch after that because she sees the elevator blood and the skeletons and stuff like that.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_04]: But that is the first one.

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_04]: And it is very strange.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Honestly, it's hard for me because I don't like stories of sexual abuse on children.

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_04]: And so I think partly as I don't want that to be true, but I kind of feel like if you didn't have the furry blow job, there wouldn't be that much to support that it's sexual instead of just plain old physical abuse.

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Aside from like maybe it's the furry that's coloring everything else and the furry filleting specifically when he's like Tony lives in my mouth.

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And if you're like, if I open up, if you open your mouth, can I see him?

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_03]: No, he went down to my stomach.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Like it and the way that people.

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, Dave.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_04]: God damn it.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_04]: That's way too plausible.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And the way that people describe the kind of dissociation that might occur if you've been abused in that way.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, yeah.

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_04]: No, all of that is absolutely right.

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't like I didn't make the mouth.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Although, you know, Tony is like, it's hard to think of Tony as just like ejaculate.

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you think do you think the house is actually haunted?

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Or is this taking place in everybody's mind or is that a bad question?

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think it's a bad question.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_03]: In fact, like in giving this a lot of thought, like if anybody is the kind of person to say like, oh, this all has like a mundane explanation, it would be me.

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_03]: But I think in Kubrick's mind, this is actually supernatural thing that's going on.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's too hard.

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_03]: The biggest piece of evidence is is Grady opening the door for Jack.

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, that seems indisputable.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Although there is that weird big.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, we'll talk about this.

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_04]: But there's that weird door knob that he's trying to fiddle with.

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_04]: And so, you know, it's I suppose I see it as haunted.

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, like I get that you could do a reading of it as, you know, this is all taking place in some combination of their psyches.

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think there might be some value.

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_04]: I think there's value in seeing it like but like again, just the steady cams of the shots like if that's not a ghost, then what is that?

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Like just the person's mind imagining themselves doing stuff.

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't I mean, the whole shining like the fact that that that there is some sort of communication going on between Scatman.

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_03]: What's his name?

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_03]: What's how are you?

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Halloran Halloran Halloran.

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_11]: Maybe some of this depends as well on whether or not you think Jack is really drunk.

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_11]: When Wendy finds him in the bar, she only sees him there.

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_11]: But he responds in a kind of slurred way as if he has just had to.

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_11]: I forget what they're serving him now, but it's a bit of a lightweight.

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_04]: It is bourbon.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Before we dive in, let's talk.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_04]: I want to talk about just really quickly two things.

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_04]: One is Stephen King famously doesn't like the movie and bought the rights back and did like a three hour series of his own.

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Who was right?

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, who was right there?

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Like that's almost just making Kubrick's point.

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Did you look at clips of it?

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I've seen this time around.

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, you've seen it.

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_04]: I've seen the whole thing.

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's not good.

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_04]: I got like chills like like it's really fucking bad.

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_11]: Oh God.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Like you've read the book Dave?

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_11]: And so I did not reread it for this.

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_11]: But the book was the first thing I read.

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_11]: That's why I was desperate to see the movie because it was the first book that truly terrified me.

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_11]: That book absolutely terrified me.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_11]: And so I couldn't wait to see the movie and it was its own thing.

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_11]: And that's fine.

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_11]: I know Stephen King absolutely hated it, but he hated it because he didn't think it had any heart.

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_11]: And that his book was in fact about the powerful relationships between the family.

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_11]: It's a huge backstory on everybody and it's like he thinks of it as kind of a tragedy because they love each other.

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_11]: And you don't see that in the Kubrick film.

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_11]: It's a complicated kind of relationship I think between the book and the movie.

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_03]: To me it's like a great illustration of like I don't blame King like for feeling that way if the movie was substantially changed from the beginning.

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_03]: From what he intended as a book.

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_03]: But it's just such a different medium.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And like you can't story doesn't work the same way visually as it does in like a 500 page narrative.

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_03]: And it just seems like Kubrick was like, okay this is my starting point but I'm going to tell a different story.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And I get why you might feel some sort of way about somebody doing that to your work of art.

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_03]: In fact, I forget the name of the woman who's the co-writer of the script.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Diane Johnson.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_03]: I think she was on record as saying one of the things that was great about the book is that it's such a poorly written work of art that I didn't feel bad changing it.

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_03]: So like you know you got to be, you got to feel a little for Stephen King.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't feel for him at all.

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I do blame him.

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't like Stephen King like the couple things that I've read by him.

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_04]: I haven't read this and I have heard it's his best.

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_04]: But like shut the fuck up.

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_04]: The only reason anyone will have heard of The Shining in a hundred years is because of the movie, not because of the book.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_04]: And you should just be honored that like this guy did one of your movies which at times he does somewhat graciously allow for.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_04]: But so many of the things we remember about the movie are just not in the book.

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Like the maze, the hedge maze is not in the book.

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Like the all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy is not in the book.

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Like to complain about that when you know the worst film adaptations are always like the faithful ones.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_04]: And like that's just the deal.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Like you made your money, you sold the book.

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Now I think you have a duty to just shut the fuck up and like let a master do his work.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Well I'm glad you feel that way because relative justice is being turned into an anime.

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_03]: They're good.

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_03]: They can do what they want with it.

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Sorry Dave, I interrupted you.

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_11]: No, no, I felt exactly like Tamer describes.

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_11]: And I loved Stephen King and I still like reading Stephen King.

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_11]: But at the time I remember thinking not coming out of the theater but after turning off the VHS that this is just a masterpiece.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_11]: I love this and I totally realized that it's different in certain key respects from the book.

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_11]: And then when I heard Stephen King complaining I said, oh come on now.

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_11]: Seriously? I mean this is a great work of art.

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_11]: Yours is what I think was a great work of art.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_11]: They're just different things.

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he shouldn't be.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_03]: No you guys are right.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_03]: If you're Stephen King and you're salty about that it's like don't fucking sell your books.

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Like you know.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not like he needs it.

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_11]: He said I knew he was going to change it but I didn't think he changes that much.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_04]: I do think like it was autobiographical.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Like it was about someone struggling with writer's block who starts to feel like the family is an obstacle to getting stuff done.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_04]: And you know he thought ultimately this guy is a good person with a lot of weaknesses and then you know that's just not Jack in the movie.

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_04]: And maybe he took that personally.

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_11]: Well yeah and he was I think he was reportedly drinking like a case of beer a day during the writing of The Shining.

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_11]: Jesus Christ.

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_11]: He's got apparently some autobiographical.

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Has he not heard of like hard liquor?

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_11]: It seems very inefficient.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_11]: It's totally unrealistic that Jack would have bourbon.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_11]: You're right.

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_10]: You're right.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome back to Very Bad Wizards.

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_03]: This is the time of the episode.

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Well it's a different time.

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[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And now back to our discussion of the shining.

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_04]: All right should we dive in?

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_04]: That opening ride up just like right there is so good.

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Did people appreciate it like you know we have drones now so like that kind of shot is not anything that turns heads now but like Jesus Christ fucking gorgeous shots.

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Incredible. Like coming up right behind the car like how the fuck.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_04]: And always like thematically on point like you said Dave you described it perfectly.

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_04]: We are small little insects in this larger world and you have the music which is the same music although it was synced up with the Clockwork Orange but it was the same opening music.

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_11]: I was just going to say that. That's right. It's the same electronic music so I felt like kind of weird continuity with Clockwork Orange that really surprised me this time around.

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_04]: So there's dread even though it's just a family driving up to somewhere you don't know where. You don't even know it's a family. It's just the car.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not it's not even the family at that point.

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_04]: No it's just him coming up alone.

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_04]: We get our first title card the interview which like what do you make of the title cards.

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_11]: I think it's part of the larger vision of the movie that it's without context in a way.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_11]: We're being thrown into some situation and there's like a title card for somebody who knows all this background stuff.

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_11]: For us it's just OK it's Tuesday right. I think that's one of the title cards on a month later for the interview.

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_11]: And so I think that's that's the main setup for the movie is just to unmoor us by leaving us totally unsure where we are what's happening or when this is exactly.

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_04]: There's no rhyme or reason to when he decides to do. We see the interview but then like a lot of things happen you don't get title cards for those.

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_04]: It just just like smash cuts to them and we're fucking like what the fuck even though there's nothing necessarily menacing happening.

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And then it matters maybe when we need to know that it's a month later like that. That's an important piece of information.

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_04]: I would say the most normal Jack Nicholson ever gets is in that when he just goes in to ask to speak to what's his name.

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah he actually sounds normal maybe for the last time in the movie we get Wendy and Danny then talking about going up there and we get introduced to Tony.

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Tony already doesn't want to go to the hotel and Wendy is trying to ask why Tony doesn't want to go.

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_04]: And I guess we don't get much more in this scene we get the Danny's not doing well at school but like Tony speaks in a very different voice here than he does later in the movie.

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Did you notice that he's very high pitched in the opening scene and then he becomes like Mrs. Torrance.

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Ratsby.

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_04]: But before he's more in that so I don't know if that's meaningful or just another little thing to fuck with us.

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean you wonder if Kubrick with the little with the four year old boy says all right just 130 more takes and we'll get it kid.

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_11]: He was just saying let's just go with this for now. It's hard to say.

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_11]: Apparently wanted to protect him all the way through from even knowing that he was acting in a horror movie.

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah I mean we haven't talked about Danny but that performance is a fucking master class. It's incredible.

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_11]: Really good.

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_03]: I think I wrote in the notes like I don't think I've seen a child performance that that well done.

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's just it and it's funny compared to the performances of Duval and Nicholson who are like very much on purpose being exaggerating.

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_03]: It's subtle and having little kids be subtle for anything is fucking impossible but he just does such an amazing job man.

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And also like I feel like he just might have dropped it. You know he did like one other thing.

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_04]: He wasn't didn't want to be an actor and he's in like you know maybe the greatest child performance of all time certainly for a child who's like five.

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_04]: It's incredible.

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay now that there's that scene Dave that you mentioned.

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean we've talked this is where we find out about the history of a man named Charles Grady who chopped up his wife and son.

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_04]: It's just a strange scene. The way he leads into it he's like the isolation can get to people and he says well that's just what I'm looking for.

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_04]: And then he says Ollman says how about your wife and son.

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_04]: How do you think they'll take to it. And he goes they'll love it.

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like the Jack character is like pretending to be a social human being.

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_03]: He's like okay this is how people do interviews.

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Whatever the actor's name who plays Ollman. I don't know if that's just him but like it's amazing.

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Like just the delivery where he's just like he killed his family with an axe and like and and happens to just mention that they were neatly lined up.

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_03]: If I were telling somebody that horrible shit I'd be like you know there was a murder here a few years ago.

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I wouldn't go into like and he neatly lined up the bodies.

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_03]: One thing to his credit.

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly exactly. He was no slob.

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_04]: My predecessor you know was right in some sense you know like to hire this guy.

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Yeah I just I love that performance.

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_04]: That's so good.

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_04]: He's great really throughout and then the Bill guy like what the fuck is his deal.

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_03]: My only thought my only thought is that because there's a lot of duality in this movie that there was a desire to have a mirrored shot during the interview with Jack Nicholson on the left and Bill on the right.

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's not a good reason but it offered some sort of symmetry to the shot that I think was cool.

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_04]: I got a vague sense that he worked for the hotel like like like the the the spirits of the hotel.

[00:50:05] [SPEAKER_04]: He kept he looked at him very closely when he was answering you know when while he and he's also just like you know back when they're giving them the tour.

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_04]: He's kind of lurking around.

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know there's something off with him.

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_04]: I had no view.

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. We'll move on.

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_04]: First really scary scene Danny talking to Tony in the bathroom and we get that Tony doesn't want to go but then it's really scary that he won't tell him why.

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Finally you know Danny convinces him to tell him and I think the implication is it's not explicit is that he gives him the vision of the elevator blood coming out in a brief glimpse of the twins.

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_04]: And then he passes out. That's the implication I think.

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Yeah. Very very scary.

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you think Tony is fundamentally good or or bad.

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_04]: I was having this debate with my daughter or neither.

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_11]: Hmm. Neither is the is that my immediate hunch.

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_11]: It's just a shower of some aspects of this other world and that's it.

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_11]: And you're going to have to learn how to deal with it kid.

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_11]: And sometimes is rude with them and says this is all I'm giving you.

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_11]: I'm withholding.

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_11]: And sometimes it's a little more forthcoming.

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_11]: Amoral. Tell me it's amoral.

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_11]: That's how sperm is.

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh Jesus.

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not on board with continuing this line of humor.

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_03]: You know someone somewhere that I was reading speculated that Tony is is the older version of Danny communicating back with him because Danny's middle name in the movie is actually answering.

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And since time is like kind of cyclical here we have this weird sort of looping or like a recursion that it might be future him protecting.

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And I read it as a protective sort of presence.

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah I did. I do too actually.

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_04]: My daughter thought maybe he's you know Tony does tell Danny not to tell people about him.

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_04]: You know and I think that made her think that there's something.

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_04]: But I think it's all out of protection of Dan.

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_11]: But he won't he won't he won't talk to Halloran though.

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_11]: He won't when Halloran asked him about him he won't talk to him right.

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Tony won't.

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Which is just Tony.

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_11]: Right. And this would be a fellow traveler I would have thought.

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_11]: But he refuses to show himself.

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_04]: I guess I'm not. But the way I read that is that Tony doesn't know where to trust Halloran.

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah but you're right Danny is the one that like opens up to the degree that he does.

[00:52:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Tony goes to the tummy we learn when Danny is with the psychiatrist and then Shelley Duvall goes and we this is an interesting scene.

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_04]: And again one I think Shelley Duvall is very good in.

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_04]: She's has she's very worried about Danny and also feels strange about having to reveal the previous case of abuse which she says happened five months ago.

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Which is when he quit drinking there will be some discrepancy in that later on in the movie.

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_04]: And the psychiatrist doesn't seem all that worried and she calls the phenomenon is some kind of auto hypnosis or self induced trance that happens to people sometimes.

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't know I thought that was an interesting way of describing it a self induced trance like it's almost like his decision or something to do it.

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_03]: This like it seemed just so much like a dissociative like protect you know splitting off to protect him.

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_11]: But I want to I can't emphasize enough I think this is one of Shelley Duvall's greatest scenes acting scenes is in is in precisely.

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_03]: I agree this was an amazing scene.

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_11]: Amazing.

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_11]: She's trying to dance around the fact that you know that Jack had dislocated Danny's shoulder but she has a smile at the end.

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_11]: That is this familiar and kind of pitiful attempt to just downplay all of this stuff to say what happened but it wasn't.

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_11]: And the way she plays that is just remarkable.

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely just totally brilliant.

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_04]: All right now we get the drive to the hotel.

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean here's the thing that Stephen King complained about which is like this isn't a guy who's slowly breaking down.

[00:54:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Like you can tell in this drive he already hates his family.

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_04]: You know and he's already acting like weird the whole it's OK.

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_04]: You see he watched it on the television.

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_03]: So when did Jack Nicholson just become Jack Nicholson.

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like he's never been able to shake this this sort of style.

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_03]: It might have been here.

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah I think it's here.

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_11]: That's right. I mean you look back at the early work and there's occasionally the famous eyebrow lifting but this is where it's full blown Jack.

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_11]: It's a great scene though.

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_11]: Beautiful like he has he has such disdain for her throughout.

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah exactly right from the very beginning.

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_11]: Totally yeah.

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_11]: And he comes out of this subtle sarcasm that just gets worse and worse to this kind of mincing mockery that he has for her later on that we'll talk about.

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_04]: No warmth for Danny.

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Danny's like I'm hungry.

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_04]: He's like well you should have eaten before.

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah yeah.

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Although I'm on his side kids do that.

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like fucking you know you had your chance.

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_03]: God damn it.

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_11]: So I think it's worth flagging moments in the movie where you know I kind of what does Jack say.

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_11]: It kind of resonates with me a little bit.

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_11]: There's another one we'll get to bro.

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_04]: It's worth flagging in this podcast all the times.

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah Dave sounds like Jack.

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Like a perverse abuser.

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_04]: All right so we go to the now they pull up to the hotel everything's closing up this stuff is all great you know it also sets up the movie perfectly.

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_04]: There is the little detail here which they talk about in room 237 and elsewhere that he is inexplicably reading a play girl in the lobby.

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_04]: And like the two options are either that he brought his own play play girl while waiting or that it was in the lobby as just normal magazine.

[00:56:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Should we explain what play girl is for our younger listeners.

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_03]: It's naked men in the style of playboy and and I think in 237 they talk about this too.

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_03]: But like one of the that issue one of the headlines is sleeping with your when parents sleep with their children.

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh wow.

[00:56:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Why parents sleep with their children.

[00:56:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:56:57] [SPEAKER_03]: But no one makes mention of it I feel like if I saw somebody reading a play girl like they're coming to the move in day I'd be like a little bit question.

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_03]: But this is the Stanley Kubrick way of fucking with you because you know that like you're pretty sure everything every single detail on a set is intentional.

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And so you're just left with like well then it must be there for a reason and what was that reason.

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean I guess if he wants to suggest sexual abuse that could be a way but nobody is going to see that except subliminally.

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_04]: You know like it like before the Internet I don't think anybody noticed that there was a play girl there.

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Danny's playing darts this is the first time he sees the twins and also the first clear sign that this movie is really about MK ultra and mind control.

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Because you have the monarch thing in the background.

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_04]: I noticed that which I actually I do by the Kubrick is worried about like MK ultra and things like that.

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_04]: But that's a very scary scene but nothing really happens.

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_04]: We just see them and they look creepy.

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Those two twins like I remember that we were like it'll be burned in my consciousness when I die but nothing happens.

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_11]: So I'm sure they must talk about this ad nauseam in the documentary but forgotten.

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_11]: But there's a deliberate point being made that the girls were eight and ten and then these are twins.

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_11]: So what is up with that.

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean should we talk about that because the other big discrepancy is Charles Grady is.

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_11]: I think they're related actually.

[00:58:38] [SPEAKER_11]: I think these are related somehow.

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't have a I don't have a theory about this other than that.

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Like these are like different incarnations like of generations of you know one generation were twins and the other one might not have been.

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a weird decision.

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I guess you could say from an external perspective twins are creepier and he wanted to show that but why not change the script.

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Have them be in the first.

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah he does say I think they were about eight and ten.

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_04]: But also like with the Grady one they're in different times like Grady was in the 20s when we meet Grady you know that that 20s ball and the guy Charles Grady was in 1970.

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_04]: So like there's it all doesn't work unless you think that this is some kind of reincarnation with where people use the same names.

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah I don't really have anything much about this either actually.

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_04]: You know.

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah well if they are these reincarnations it would speak to the reality of the supernaturalism for him.

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_11]: These are real people and they are the spirits of of the prior the prior people and they're very closely related but not exactly the same.

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_04]: So they take Wendy and Jack to the apartment.

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Everything is like set up so perfectly you see the bathroom window.

[01:00:05] [SPEAKER_04]: You know you're going to get on this tour the hedge maze.

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Dick Halloran is going to show them the store room.

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Everything that's going to matter later in the movie is just is shown to us right now and then most significantly the shining which I guess we'll get to.

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_04]: But this is also where Ullman just mentions as they're coming back from the maze in the most casual way possible.

[01:00:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah you know fun fact this was built over an Indian burial ground they say and they had to fight off some Indians that were that didn't like that we were building the hotel here.

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_03]: That's what's crazy is that that's like that just is the way that people talked about that kind of shit you know like it was fun fact.

[01:00:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah it's unbelievable and like and we talked about it probably you know in like the 80s like that or at the very least.

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah it's like ooh there's some like hoodoo you know.

[01:01:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah they're poker guys.

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah brainy bench like necklace of a Hawaiian idol.

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah and it's just so tossed off.

[01:01:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah so then in the kitchen Wendy and Dick Halloran I like the way this is introduced but he somehow knows the nickname for Danny his doc.

[01:01:30] [SPEAKER_04]: And then as they're in the store room and he's just describing stuff you get that shining music you know the shine music which is that like and they start communicating and.

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Jarring moment for me like like every time I sort of forget that he does that in the middle of like do you want some ice cream.

[01:01:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And you're like oh shit like did he actually just say that to him.

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_04]: So then they take Wendy away and she literally also says he says yeah everyone will be gone by five o'clock and she's like wow like a ghost ship.

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah yeah it's so it's so subtext is text in this movie.

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah right.

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Last I forget I want to give some praise to Scott Mann Carothers in this movie like he's so yeah I don't know he just yeah just does such a good like.

[01:02:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah so the scene now between him and Danny I think is really good because like think of what has to be done like he has to explain to Danny both like you're not the only person that has this power.

[01:02:35] [SPEAKER_04]: I have it too that we have to get like the nature of the power like what it is the connection with the hotel and also that there's something fucked about room two three seven and all of that just comes out kind of flawlessly in the scene.

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Some places are like people some shine some don't.

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah I also like you know he says bad things have happened and when bad things happen it can leave traces behind like burnt toast but only people who shine can sense it and if you think of the hotel as a metaphor for the like America like bad things have happened.

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah right.

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_04]: The residue is still there we can even if we choose to ignore it it's there.

[01:03:20] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think do you know is Halloran black in the book.

[01:03:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I can't remember.

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_03]: But I don't it seems like a good a good touch to say like the for him to be making the point like he's it's an external still external to the to the ills of this country like.

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_03]: He's an outsider as well here as we'll hear from.

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah yeah.

[01:03:47] [SPEAKER_04]: So Danny like you said Dave Tony is just not talking in this and Danny opens up a little bit and says like are you scared of it and he brings up two three seven his reaction as Gatman crothers Halloran's reaction to two three seven is kind of interesting.

[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_04]: He's the perfect like paternal like I'm going to explain things to you in a very protective way until two three seven gets mentioned and then he almost snaps at Danny and tells him to get away.

[01:04:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Why do you think Halloran does that.

[01:04:28] [SPEAKER_03]: It's still not clear to me after watching the movie but I'll admit something else it's not clear to me what the shining is.

[01:04:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Like what is the power.

[01:04:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean I obviously I know that it's a connect like a psychic connection but but it seems more than that.

[01:04:44] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah and it's it's the thing that the hotel wants most.

[01:04:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_11]: And so there's going to be something there that's got to connect up to it once somehow because of his power to the hotel's power.

[01:04:54] [SPEAKER_11]: So what is that power.

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_04]: What do you mean like just the mechanics.

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_04]: So there's mind reading you can read somebody else's mind although it doesn't seem like you can always do that.

[01:05:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Now you can see parts of the future sometimes and you can see like little glimpses or images of the past.

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah I mean I guess it's good that it's never like laid out like what is the shot.

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_03]: You know just calling it the shining seems like more than the sum of the parts like oh you have to you know telepathy.

[01:05:26] [SPEAKER_04]: And yeah.

[01:05:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Does he get in the book Dave any more specific about what it entails.

[01:05:32] [SPEAKER_11]: Not much more no no no I mean it's it's made much more clear in the book though that this is a really incredible power that Danny doesn't know the full reaches of.

[01:05:40] [SPEAKER_11]: And and it's got my brother or the howling character has a bit of it and it's enough to reach across Florida to wherever.

[01:05:48] [SPEAKER_11]: But it's really just the kind of communication that he had back and forth with his own mother mentally.

[01:05:53] [SPEAKER_11]: But apparently the vastness of Danny's powers are unknown by Danny and unknown to the to the reader they come out occasionally.

[01:06:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah Danny seems like of the three people we know that shine which I think are Jack and Danny and Halloran.

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Danny seems like he has the strongest power.

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think Jack knows that he has it like Halloran even says some people just deny that they have it when they do.

[01:06:19] [SPEAKER_04]: All right we got a smash cut one month later title guard.

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_04]: It's just like everything has been set up and now we're one month in and pretty much I think the timing is starting now.

[01:06:30] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's just the rest of it's going to take place over the course of a week.

[01:06:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Is that right.

[01:06:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[01:06:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't pay that much attention to the title cards.

[01:06:38] [SPEAKER_04]: I think from now on it starts.

[01:06:39] [SPEAKER_04]: It's more like Monday Tuesday Thursday you know like I think it is like I think that's right.

[01:06:46] [SPEAKER_11]: The communication with the truth with the you know that she has on the C.B.

[01:06:49] [SPEAKER_11]: They say there's a big storm coming and so that's right.

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_11]: So it's got to be.

[01:06:55] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's like he just goes crazy in a month.

[01:06:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Like that's the other thing.

[01:07:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Like it's like I could be there for a month and be fine.

[01:07:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I would love that actually like also though very weird that a month in and presumably this is the first time that he mentions that he had this more than deja vu upon coming to the hotel like he felt he had already been there.

[01:07:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Like you just never bothered to mention that the whole month.

[01:07:21] [SPEAKER_04]: I also love that he's waking up at eleven thirty.

[01:07:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Like he's just right there just says you are a depressed failed fuck up.

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_04]: You moved your whole family here to write and you're waking up at eleven thirty.

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_04]: You get the first big wheel scene.

[01:07:37] [SPEAKER_04]: I like that you know the big wheel scene starts in the in the basement then on the first floor then the second floor then third floor.

[01:07:44] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.

[01:07:44] [SPEAKER_04]: This is on the first floor.

[01:07:45] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean it starts on the first floor.

[01:07:47] [SPEAKER_04]: So just awesome.

[01:07:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Like you know the steady cam of that and like him and the sound the audio of that scene and the audio.

[01:07:56] [SPEAKER_11]: That's what I remember from the first time I saw the movie was the audio.

[01:08:00] [SPEAKER_11]: And this time it's a Wendy pushing the breakfast cart first over the carpet and then onto the tile and then on the carpet.

[01:08:07] [SPEAKER_11]: And then it's immediately followed by that scene with Danny and the big wheels.

[01:08:11] [SPEAKER_11]: Just so incredible.

[01:08:12] [SPEAKER_11]: The sound everything about that is so good.

[01:08:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And again Wendy's just the person holding the shit together.

[01:08:18] [SPEAKER_03]: We were going to see that she's the one doing all the checks on like the boiler room and like the radio and all that stuff.

[01:08:24] [SPEAKER_03]: She's obviously doing it and and it's just shitty.

[01:08:29] [SPEAKER_03]: He's like like you said Tamler clearly a fuck up who blames her.

[01:08:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Meanwhile she's serving him breakfast and and being supportive like when he said doing his job and being supportive.

[01:08:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Even making excuses for him.

[01:08:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Well we got to stop going to bed so late like how late did they go to sleep?

[01:08:47] [SPEAKER_04]: You know yeah.

[01:08:48] [SPEAKER_04]: She fucking got up.

[01:08:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:08:52] [SPEAKER_04]: And yeah so it's all this is all just dread but nothing besides all these little details and except that it's like just the increasing it's increasing the sarcasm level.

[01:09:05] [SPEAKER_11]: Right.

[01:09:06] [SPEAKER_11]: And when he's in bed and she said well I'm sure I'm sure it'll come on.

[01:09:10] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's where he says what you referred to Dave the part about like I knew it was coming around every corner.

[01:09:17] [SPEAKER_04]: And then you know that's intercut with Danny and it's all just so good.

[01:09:21] [SPEAKER_04]: And you know that that sound effect is also used in a slightly distorted way when they're running through the maze.

[01:09:28] [SPEAKER_04]: So he really connects the house and the maze at the end.

[01:09:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Then you get this kind of intercut scene like you get the first shot of the typewriter which is not being typed on.

[01:09:38] [SPEAKER_04]: And then Jack throwing the tennis ball against the wall which is exactly what I would do if I was like writing trying to write a project in that big hall.

[01:09:48] [SPEAKER_11]: Not a bad arm either.

[01:09:49] [SPEAKER_11]: He's getting it.

[01:09:50] [SPEAKER_11]: That's right.

[01:09:50] [SPEAKER_11]: This is one of those that resonates with me.

[01:09:53] [SPEAKER_11]: And what goes on and trying to produce something good.

[01:09:56] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.

[01:09:56] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean I think the fact that I haven't mentioned this is telling like I'm also trying to start a big writing project and also not having much success.

[01:10:04] [SPEAKER_04]: So Dave you might not be the only one that's going to kill your whole family.

[01:10:10] [SPEAKER_04]: We could be cellmates.

[01:10:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Interspersed with that is them running through the maze.

[01:10:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Wendy and Danny and it's nice scene between them but the music is not nice.

[01:10:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Like it's a real mismatch between them like having a nice time exploring the maze on a nice chilly fall day.

[01:10:30] [SPEAKER_04]: And just the music is just like so creepy then.

[01:10:33] [SPEAKER_03]: What a great shot of him looking at the model.

[01:10:36] [SPEAKER_04]: And yeah yeah yeah absolutely.

[01:10:39] [SPEAKER_04]: That's right.

[01:10:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you that's always stuck out for me because is that just him shining.

[01:10:44] [SPEAKER_03]: It's it's interesting that he doesn't know that he has a shining like I think he's just going crazy.

[01:10:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[01:10:50] [SPEAKER_03]: He's just but like he's going crazy with the power.

[01:10:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:10:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Smash cut to Tuesday now.

[01:10:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:10:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Now I think we really are just it's a matter of days till the movie is over.

[01:11:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Danny's back on the big wheel.

[01:11:01] [SPEAKER_04]: But this time he passes to three seven and then when he sees the twins I love that he after he goes to room two three seven it's locked.

[01:11:08] [SPEAKER_04]: He gets back on his big wheel sees the twins and then like just pushes his wheel.

[01:11:14] [SPEAKER_04]: You know do you see the way he like pushes his wheel with his hand.

[01:11:17] [SPEAKER_04]: And totally get the fuck out of there.

[01:11:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes yes.

[01:11:19] [SPEAKER_04]: To get yeah.

[01:11:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I had like such a.

[01:11:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:11:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I loved my big wheel and it's locked though.

[01:11:26] [SPEAKER_03]: You have to like get the wheel so that you put your foot there.

[01:11:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Such a beautiful touch.

[01:11:30] [SPEAKER_03]: That's exactly right.

[01:11:33] [SPEAKER_03]: He's well he's well versed in the ways of the big wheel by now.

[01:11:38] [SPEAKER_04]: We got a cut of him typing Jack typing for the first time this perfectly symmetrical shot and this is where I like you get that kind of music you know like it's like we're in fairy land all of a sudden.

[01:11:52] [SPEAKER_04]: We're just watching him from the back.

[01:11:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean this is a masterful way of making us feel like we're spirits in the house.

[01:11:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you think he's already just writing all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

[01:12:02] [SPEAKER_04]: He's got to be right.

[01:12:03] [SPEAKER_11]: He's got to be.

[01:12:04] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean the stack of that manuscript is I don't know how many pages and some some assistant had to type.

[01:12:10] [SPEAKER_11]: I hope that exists.

[01:12:12] [SPEAKER_11]: That's what he's doing the entire time.

[01:12:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:12:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Wendy comes in.

[01:12:18] [SPEAKER_04]: He hides.

[01:12:19] [SPEAKER_04]: He hides what he's writing.

[01:12:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Yep.

[01:12:20] [SPEAKER_04]: This is I think just a really good picture of kind of emotional abuse from a husband you know.

[01:12:28] [SPEAKER_04]: It's also a picture of how annoying it is to be bothered when you're trying to get this one that resonates.

[01:12:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:12:36] [SPEAKER_11]: This resonates with me.

[01:12:38] [SPEAKER_11]: When you hear the take take take take take.

[01:12:41] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.

[01:12:41] [SPEAKER_11]: It means don't bother me and yeah I feel I feel that a little bit.

[01:12:44] [SPEAKER_11]: You're distracting.

[01:12:45] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's especially annoying if you're not getting anything done.

[01:12:48] [SPEAKER_04]: You know if you really are in a groove it's like OK because you're in a good mood because you're in a group like or so I remember.

[01:12:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Like a few years ago.

[01:12:59] [SPEAKER_04]: He's a total asshole to her and it's never addressed again.

[01:13:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Never mind resolve.

[01:13:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah then smash cut to Thursday.

[01:13:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Like that's that's what Wendy is.

[01:13:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Is this when he's looking out the window and watching them play in the snow.

[01:13:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Are we there.

[01:13:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.

[01:13:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I just I just have at this point like he's bad shit already.

[01:13:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:13:17] [SPEAKER_04]: He's already a Kubrick stair while they're running in the snow.

[01:13:21] [SPEAKER_04]: This is after the you know she's heard about the snow storm.

[01:13:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah and that's all we get from Thursday is them running in the snow and him doing the Kubrick stair.

[01:13:31] [SPEAKER_04]: And then you cut to Saturday.

[01:13:34] [SPEAKER_04]: I think this is another just masterful of Shelley DeVos scene just she's so isolated now from an adult that she calls the Forest Service operator.

[01:13:46] [SPEAKER_04]: And just tries to keep talking like I think we've all been on maybe both sides of this where somebody just needs to talk and you're you want to help them and you want to do it.

[01:13:58] [SPEAKER_04]: You don't want to do it for too long you know and the guy tactfully gets off but it just my heart went out to her in that scene.

[01:14:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah and we're talking about sort of the weird uncannyness of conversations even though like we can't put our finger on it like during the interview.

[01:14:13] [SPEAKER_03]: This is one where it's you're it's forcefully made aware that it is an odd conversation because she has to say over they both have to say over every single time the end sentence and that just adds something to the detachment like we're we're we're pretending to have this conversation but we have to like do this other thing.

[01:14:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely no right it's like even fully enjoy a normal conversation because she has to say over and it just emphasizes their distance from each other.

[01:14:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah yeah yeah I love that so there's a few scenes now where I just said this is the scariest scene in the whole movie.

[01:14:53] [SPEAKER_03]: This is the first of them. Can I just say something before you describe it? I want I showed this scene to Bella when she was like six or something and she's I fucked up.

[01:15:06] [SPEAKER_03]: I fucked up on this one. She's never forgotten it and I when I was showing it to her in my head it wasn't that gnarly like I just remembered oh the twins are creepy I think I was thinking of the earlier scenes you know but I showed her the fucking murdered ones.

[01:15:26] [SPEAKER_11]: I showed this to my grandsons who were at the time nine or ten and twelve I think and the ten year old this is the point where the ten year old got up and just walked out of the room.

[01:15:34] [SPEAKER_04]: He didn't say anything. To Kubrick's credit. I also showed it to my daughter too young and I also still hear shit about it. I showed her the whole movie actually but at least she had some contact.

[01:15:52] [SPEAKER_04]: What I also love about it I mean aside from it just being utterly terrifying is like I love the way he puts his hand when he sees the murder figure he puts his hands in front of his eyes and then peeks through it like fingers.

[01:16:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Just being us you know like that's how I'm sure I watched that scene back in the day and it really is now like every scene is increasingly terrifying but then at the end Tony now speaking to a freaked out Danny says like remember what Mr. Halloran says it's just like pictures in a book Danny it isn't real.

[01:16:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Which is interesting because that does seem to be for the most part true about the hotel that they can't physically interact with the world. The one possible exception being well to one being if you think that the old woman hurt Danny and then to being the

[01:16:54] [SPEAKER_04]: The infamous store room thing but anyway.

[01:16:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay now you cut to them watching the impossible TV you know the one that's not plugged in anywhere.

[01:17:05] [SPEAKER_03]: My my my love of clean setups like loves this so much that like every time I watch it I'm think to myself maybe he was just awesome at cable management you know like you can do it.

[01:17:17] [SPEAKER_03]: You can hide the cable so well.

[01:17:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh my god.

[01:17:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, my gen is like that too she hates the courts. She hates all courts.

[01:17:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh no.

[01:17:28] [SPEAKER_04]: I married to the hate cord queen.

[01:17:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Because she can actually do something about it too right she can like build something.

[01:17:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[01:17:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.

[01:17:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Sorry. So he says, again this is, is that is that Tony is Tony talking to us.

[01:17:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Danny says he wants to go get the fire engine like truck from the room and Jack is sleeping, like again, you're just so terrified for Danny at this point.

[01:18:05] [SPEAKER_04]: And then when he goes in and this scene even though nothing bad actually happens but him on Danny's lap.

[01:18:11] [SPEAKER_04]: You know we find out he can't sleep and and Danny.

[01:18:16] [SPEAKER_04]: It's so heartbreaking and like I think again so well performed but he's trying to reach out to his father here and trying to connect on some level.

[01:18:28] [SPEAKER_04]: His unease with the hotel and see if his dad feels it, and even though all he does is hold them and say he loves him.

[01:18:38] [SPEAKER_04]: It's really unsettling and it's a person pretending to be a human.

[01:18:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. It's like, it's he's saying the things and you're like why is this not resonating with me and it's just because like there is something wrong.

[01:18:53] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not, it's not delivered in a way that you believe that this is like coming from.

[01:18:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. And there's two moments where he actually does seem scary.

[01:19:03] [SPEAKER_04]: The first is when he says echoing the twins. I love it here.

[01:19:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I want to stay here forever and ever and ever.

[01:19:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Just like the twins and said, and then also when Danny asks him, you'd never heard us so he's clearly had a premonition of this.

[01:19:23] [SPEAKER_04]: In addition to the earlier abuse, and he, he immediately blames Wendy like he blames Wendy for everything.

[01:19:30] [SPEAKER_04]: I think he just doesn't like the kid or doesn't love him but like Wendy he has active like hatred.

[01:19:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Did she tell you that?

[01:19:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Yeah. And you get that same fairy music.

[01:19:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Now every scene like now this is the truck scene where he's Danny's playing on the carpet and got the ball just comes up towards him that same ball that Jack was throwing.

[01:19:53] [SPEAKER_04]: And now room 237 is open and has the key in it.

[01:19:58] [SPEAKER_04]: He yells mom when he goes into the room or enters the room but doesn't yell for his dad.

[01:20:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Meanwhile Wendy is downstairs doing all the work Dave as he said.

[01:20:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:20:13] [SPEAKER_04]: As that's happening we hear Jack screaming and she runs upstairs and Jack says that he has the dream of killing all of them and he seems genuinely upset by the...

[01:20:27] [SPEAKER_04]: There's some humanity there. There's some humanity in that scene.

[01:20:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe how a normal good father would react to a dream like that but it also doesn't seem like he's pretending. I don't know what's your take on that?

[01:20:39] [SPEAKER_03]: No, it was interesting to me that he seemed truly distressed at it. But my first thought was like, if I had a dream like that I would never fucking tell.

[01:20:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I would never wake up and tell my wife and kid that I dreamed that I murdered them. Like, I don't know.

[01:20:54] [SPEAKER_03]: It's this descent into madness. You can read it that way but he was clearly bad from the beginning.

[01:21:01] [SPEAKER_03]: But it really does feel like we're being shown the descent into madness and that scene he's holding onto something.

[01:21:10] [SPEAKER_04]: He is not trying to stop his descent. He is welcoming the descent. He has a toboggan.

[01:21:18] [SPEAKER_03]: He's blame worthy for that.

[01:21:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe the image of the movie that bothered me the most this time is you get the over the shoulder shot of Danny walking in as they're having this conversation.

[01:21:33] [SPEAKER_04]: You can't see that anything's wrong just from the behind shot and you see Shelley Duvall saying, oh everything's fine. Don't worry. Go away.

[01:21:41] [SPEAKER_04]: And he just keeps walking. We don't know why he keeps walking.

[01:21:45] [SPEAKER_04]: And then slowly you see both that he's sucking his thumb, which is a horrifying kind of little.

[01:21:53] [SPEAKER_04]: He's clearly reverting to some kind of past behavior and he's got neck bruises and his sweater is torn.

[01:22:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. And Shelley Duvall first reaction obviously is you did this to him and he doesn't deny it.

[01:22:12] [SPEAKER_04]: He just doesn't say anything actually.

[01:22:15] [SPEAKER_11]: So there are, and I want to mention these for maybe obvious reasons, but there are some comic moments throughout the movie.

[01:22:24] [SPEAKER_11]: Some deliberate, maybe some not so deliberate, but probably most deliberate.

[01:22:29] [SPEAKER_11]: And here the look that he has on his face that Jack does is a look of utter confusion.

[01:22:35] [SPEAKER_11]: It's a kind of dazed and what the fuck look. What are you accusing?

[01:22:39] [SPEAKER_11]: It's like he has no memory of anything that would have tied into this.

[01:22:42] [SPEAKER_11]: Sure, there are other things that I've done, but this and it's a kind of a comic zombie look there that leads to him walking down the hallway.

[01:22:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, right.

[01:22:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, OK, let's tackle the biggest question first.

[01:23:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you think he did that to Danny or are we to think that this is one time the hotel did interact with the physical world?

[01:23:08] [SPEAKER_11]: I suspect it's an interaction from the spirit world to the real world and that he is actually innocent of this particular thing.

[01:23:16] [SPEAKER_11]: But it's the blaming of him because it seems perfectly in character that this is exactly the sort of thing that he do that sets him off on the path to, you know what?

[01:23:24] [SPEAKER_11]: This is the last straw. I'm not going to take it from this bitch anymore is the kind of attitude that he has.

[01:23:28] [SPEAKER_11]: And that's what puts him over the top, I think towards killing the family.

[01:23:33] [SPEAKER_11]: So I think it's a hotel's nudge. He's being framed.

[01:23:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I agree with with Shue here.

[01:23:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I think almost against my better judgment, knowing his character, I kind of think he's innocent and that this this is one of the things that like gets him even further into this.

[01:23:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like I said, this it's the motivating action that gets him to the bar.

[01:23:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Here's my issue with that, although I think actually the way you're describing it might address this.

[01:24:03] [SPEAKER_04]: If the house can just like physically abuse people and it's so frustrated about the Jack can't like get his act together to like kill his family.

[01:24:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, why doesn't the house just do it?

[01:24:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, you know, like that's the that's the part like I don't fully get.

[01:24:21] [SPEAKER_04]: If God has the capacity to interfere in world events, why is this evil?

[01:24:27] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's free will basically.

[01:24:29] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, like it's in some ways it's scarier that they can't interact with the world and just have to fuck with your head.

[01:24:37] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it messes it up a little bit.

[01:24:39] [SPEAKER_04]: But the way you describe it as maybe they just need us to do the killing like the main things, but they can do the nudges.

[01:24:48] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I mean, the nudges is a bruising.

[01:24:50] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, it's actually it's a serious harm that's been done here.

[01:24:53] [SPEAKER_11]: So yeah, it's not just getting a glass of bourbon into somebody's mouth.

[01:24:57] [SPEAKER_04]: And it happens right after he has that scene where he says you could read this both ways that he wants to leave the hotel maybe.

[01:25:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And and Shelley Duvall says we might need to get Danny out of here.

[01:25:11] [SPEAKER_04]: So like I guess that that gives motive to both of them, the hotel or Jack.

[01:25:16] [SPEAKER_04]: But I definitely agree with you that I don't think Jack knows that he did it.

[01:25:21] [SPEAKER_04]: But I don't think he knows that he didn't either.

[01:25:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. Because we know that the shining can black you out.

[01:25:28] [SPEAKER_03]: That's right. Right.

[01:25:29] [SPEAKER_03]: So it could be that that that's what happened.

[01:25:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And that would be more consistent because you're right, Tamler.

[01:25:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I it is not at all clear again, aside from the possible opening of the storage room door that there is interaction and why would they like is the motivation of the hotel?

[01:25:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Like it wants Danny.

[01:25:49] [SPEAKER_03]: But so by wanting Danny, like I feel like what they need is for the murder to take place.

[01:25:54] [SPEAKER_03]: They need the evil to occur, not just the death.

[01:25:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I think they need the actual bad shit to happen.

[01:26:02] [SPEAKER_04]: I know you guys have said this and I know a lot of people believe this.

[01:26:06] [SPEAKER_04]: But why exactly do we think the hotel wants Danny in particular?

[01:26:10] [SPEAKER_11]: That's one of the reasons I think that Kubrick is relying on some knowledge of the book, because it's explicit in the book that the hotel wants Danny.

[01:26:20] [SPEAKER_11]: And so I think a lot of people going inward just see these events in that light.

[01:26:24] [SPEAKER_11]: Now, because are you said that you didn't you hadn't read the book.

[01:26:28] [SPEAKER_11]: So were you seeing it as the hotel wants Danny then?

[01:26:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like I was reading it and maybe I saw this in some videos that I watched analyzing it.

[01:26:38] [SPEAKER_03]: But it did seem as if what the little when the little girls are saying, come play like be with us.

[01:26:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Like to me, that was the personification of the desires of the hotel.

[01:26:48] [SPEAKER_04]: One way of reading it that I think I've always read it this way until coming across these theories and listening to you guys is the hotel just wants all of them.

[01:26:55] [SPEAKER_04]: They want all of them dead.

[01:26:57] [SPEAKER_03]: The way that some people were talking about it in the analysis that I watched were this theory of absorption.

[01:27:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that like it's nice absorb souls and maybe that's right.

[01:27:08] [SPEAKER_03]: A soul is a soul.

[01:27:09] [SPEAKER_03]: It did strike me, though, that what the things that it wants is to absorb the souls via murder.

[01:27:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, like not just natural death.

[01:27:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Definitely. Yeah.

[01:27:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's consistent with the like this is a fucked up land.

[01:27:20] [SPEAKER_03]: This land has a fucked up history.

[01:27:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Like we are kind of like taking back by by like showing you the evil that you were or something like that.

[01:27:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it might just be coincidence that the people who are drawn to do that, like they have some control over the people with the shining.

[01:27:36] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's why those people are drawn and maybe like cyclically.

[01:27:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Those same people with the shining are drawn.

[01:27:42] [SPEAKER_03]: And but you're right to that.

[01:27:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Danny is an obstacle like the bartender exploit explicitly says he's trying.

[01:27:50] [SPEAKER_03]: No, not later. Yeah, Grady.

[01:27:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like he's trying to bring someone else into the mix.

[01:27:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. All right.

[01:27:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, let's move on.

[01:27:58] [SPEAKER_04]: But we can come back to that.

[01:27:59] [SPEAKER_04]: So now we get him walking down the hallway and stay like he said, like and I read that he was literally like supposed to be like a homeless, an insane homeless person in New York at that time.

[01:28:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And did you did you guys come across that like he does those like movements?

[01:28:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I want to say spastic, but I know that's not like something I should say.

[01:28:22] [SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, like those movements every time he crosses a mirror.

[01:28:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yes. Right.

[01:28:26] [SPEAKER_03]: It's timed perfectly with the presence of the mirror.

[01:28:28] [SPEAKER_03]: I saw that.

[01:28:30] [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, any time a ghost appears in this movie, there's always a mirror.

[01:28:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, including right now when he goes in to and it's just a mirror that he's looking into before it becomes Lloyd.

[01:28:42] [SPEAKER_04]: The bar, the bartender.

[01:28:45] [SPEAKER_04]: And I really love I think this is a nice subtle touch.

[01:28:47] [SPEAKER_04]: He's kind of a dick to Lloyd at first.

[01:28:51] [SPEAKER_04]: And like I feel like this is kind of what weak men do.

[01:28:54] [SPEAKER_04]: They're they're they're mean to people who they have a little power and authority over.

[01:29:00] [SPEAKER_03]: It's the continuous displacement of anger that we see in Deadwood that we're constantly coming back.

[01:29:04] [SPEAKER_04]: That's exactly what I was thinking.

[01:29:07] [SPEAKER_11]: But so speaking of on the nose, yes, the subtext is text.

[01:29:11] [SPEAKER_11]: This is where are you about to say this?

[01:29:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I give my goddamn soul for this glass of beer to a guy wearing a red to a guy in a red leisure suit.

[01:29:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Who's like I literally have in my notes Dave a little on the nose.

[01:29:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:29:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. And this is where he says white man's burden.

[01:29:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, Lord.

[01:29:35] [SPEAKER_04]: White man's burden.

[01:29:37] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, again, lending credence to Native American genocide, maybe just racism, slavery in general.

[01:29:44] [SPEAKER_04]: It's not even clear what the what that would mean in that context.

[01:29:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Like the guilt of it is what the burden, I guess.

[01:29:51] [SPEAKER_04]: That's the expression.

[01:29:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. But yeah.

[01:29:56] [SPEAKER_03]: What is the burden?

[01:29:57] [SPEAKER_03]: It is it is totally the the shuffling off like the blame for a mediocre existence by like somehow appealing to the fact that life is just harder for me.

[01:30:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, because you know the white man.

[01:30:10] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, this taps already into that kind of the white male resentment that the Lloyd actor is very creepy.

[01:30:20] [SPEAKER_04]: What I like about this scene is you already get the sense that they don't trust Jack.

[01:30:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Like they're already kind of being like, how are things going?

[01:30:29] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, he's already kind of being like, what the fuck?

[01:30:32] [SPEAKER_04]: It's been a month.

[01:30:33] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, they're like everyone's still alive.

[01:30:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And he has some knowledge at this point that that's his job.

[01:30:39] [SPEAKER_03]: But again, it's never quite explicit that he realizes that his job is to kill his family.

[01:30:46] [SPEAKER_11]: I think that Lloyd performance is masterful.

[01:30:49] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, it's very brief.

[01:30:50] [SPEAKER_11]: It is reaction shots are so ambiguous that there's a kind of there's a kind of pleasing sort of smile like a someone who's serving like a waiter would have to do.

[01:31:01] [SPEAKER_11]: But also that smile reflects the kind of disdain for Jack as well.

[01:31:06] [SPEAKER_11]: And it's just so subtle but so beautifully done.

[01:31:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Nicholson's performance through this whole little monologue is just it's it's so Nicholson and like but but.

[01:31:17] [SPEAKER_03]: God, the way he makes you uncomfortable, the way he's chewing every line.

[01:31:22] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, yeah.

[01:31:23] [SPEAKER_11]: This is where the full Jack experience we first get because he's at ease.

[01:31:27] [SPEAKER_11]: He's in his element where he thinks he's sort of he can look down to on the waiter and and list all of his grievances and everybody's got to listen to him.

[01:31:36] [SPEAKER_11]: But it's a comic.

[01:31:36] [SPEAKER_11]: This is a comic performance.

[01:31:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right there it is.

[01:31:39] [SPEAKER_11]: There are some really funny elements to this.

[01:31:42] [SPEAKER_11]: And I think it's crucial because suspense has been building so much to this point or this sense of dread that you have to have some little outlet.

[01:31:50] [SPEAKER_11]: But my all time favorite line maybe in the movies ever and it's it's not an over the top delivery.

[01:31:57] [SPEAKER_11]: A momentary loss of muscular coordination.

[01:32:01] [SPEAKER_11]: It's like he's holding it back as much as he can.

[01:32:05] [SPEAKER_04]: But I just love which is which is describing like hurting his Danny.

[01:32:11] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, yeah.

[01:32:12] [SPEAKER_11]: He's he's justifying actually hurting his what would have been a three and a half year old son.

[01:32:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Well, so the timeline here is that there's a discrepancy here because Shelley Duvall said that this has happened five months ago, which would be six months now.

[01:32:26] [SPEAKER_04]: And he's saying it's happened three years ago.

[01:32:30] [SPEAKER_04]: So again, you might think we're just in different cycles of this.

[01:32:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Or maybe he also did it when Danny was like two or one.

[01:32:39] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, like these the puzzle pieces aren't fully fitting together.

[01:32:43] [SPEAKER_03]: It could be that like I didn't give a lot.

[01:32:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I saw people saying that the timeline doesn't add up and you're right.

[01:32:49] [SPEAKER_03]: But he does say he's been sober for five months to echo what Wendy said.

[01:32:52] [SPEAKER_03]: But it does seem like one of the possibilities is that Wendy was trying to like make it seem like, oh, some good came out of it.

[01:32:59] [SPEAKER_03]: He's sober.

[01:33:00] [SPEAKER_03]: But that really didn't happen as a direct result of the Danny thing if that was three years ago.

[01:33:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but I'm not sure.

[01:33:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Because he definitely only stopped drinking for five months or six.

[01:33:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:33:12] [SPEAKER_04]: My favorite line in this is when Lloyd says women can't live without them.

[01:33:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Can't live without them.

[01:33:20] [SPEAKER_04]: But it's so weird.

[01:33:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I thought it was going to be some sort of joke on that line, but it's just that line.

[01:33:27] [SPEAKER_04]: But I think it's like he emphasized those can't live with them.

[01:33:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:33:33] [SPEAKER_11]: But it's also the kind of line that bartenders and I spent some time in my life in bars that they say they really mouth these cliches.

[01:33:40] [SPEAKER_11]: They're not even listening to what the patron is saying and they're just trying to get through the day.

[01:33:45] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.

[01:33:46] [SPEAKER_11]: But this is different.

[01:33:47] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, there's something quite.

[01:33:48] [SPEAKER_04]: So now this is a really interesting little transition here.

[01:33:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Now we get that kind of like I don't know if this was steady cam, but it's going into room two three seven and it's at first you think it's just like one of these shots where it's like the point of view of the spirit.

[01:34:06] [SPEAKER_04]: But this is actually Jack's point of view as he goes into room two three seven.

[01:34:12] [SPEAKER_04]: You don't get that many straight up point of view shots like you get here.

[01:34:17] [SPEAKER_04]: And and it's almost surprising when it turns out to be Jack.

[01:34:21] [SPEAKER_04]: You see his hand and then you realize, oh, that's Jack.

[01:34:25] [SPEAKER_04]: You think maybe you're just going to go in and see what's in room two three seven, but no one's there.

[01:34:31] [SPEAKER_04]: And then a very famous scene he sees in the bathroom.

[01:34:35] [SPEAKER_04]: So the production design here is off the fucking charts and the bathroom is so beautiful and brilliant.

[01:34:43] [SPEAKER_04]: And this woman comes out clearly the woman like Jack thinks he deserves instead of like weird looking Shelley Duvall.

[01:34:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Rest in peace.

[01:34:52] [SPEAKER_04]: You're you're the best.

[01:34:54] [SPEAKER_04]: But, you know, she is beautiful.

[01:34:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I think she but she's like Jack doesn't think so.

[01:35:00] [SPEAKER_04]: And and he wants this.

[01:35:02] [SPEAKER_04]: And then, you know, of course, famously like I don't even know what to say about the scene.

[01:35:07] [SPEAKER_04]: It's almost gone like too far for me.

[01:35:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Like I can watch this and not even be that scared anymore because like I know it's coming.

[01:35:16] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, yeah.

[01:35:18] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I was trying to actually put my head in that space.

[01:35:21] [SPEAKER_11]: The first time that I saw it would have been with the book in mind because as I said, that's the most terrifying sequence for me that and Danny in that bathroom.

[01:35:29] [SPEAKER_11]: And it was terrifying.

[01:35:30] [SPEAKER_11]: It was truly terrifying.

[01:35:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, and then when she tries to start chasing him out like that, I that still got to me.

[01:35:40] [SPEAKER_04]: What I don't totally get I wanted to ask you guys about is intercut with all this is Danny.

[01:35:45] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's not clear what his relationship to this scene is.

[01:35:50] [SPEAKER_04]: We learn later that he's trying to contact Halloran.

[01:35:54] [SPEAKER_04]: But like this doesn't seem like that.

[01:35:57] [SPEAKER_04]: This seems the way it's shot.

[01:35:58] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that's like he has some connection with this scene, but I don't understand for the life of me what it is.

[01:36:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Does he just see it?

[01:36:04] [SPEAKER_03]: The only interpretation I even thought of was that like somehow when the shining is going on close by, like he's a part of it.

[01:36:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And maybe since they're connected, one of the things that's never explicitly said is like do they if they are both shining, do they have a connection?

[01:36:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Somehow.

[01:36:20] [SPEAKER_03]: And what is the nature of the connection between Danny and his father?

[01:36:24] [SPEAKER_03]: And can that explain some of the shit that's gone down?

[01:36:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, like, you know, it's almost shot like he's making the like the woman come out of the water.

[01:36:36] [SPEAKER_03]: What's weird is because we're seeing him get chased by the old woman with like the decaying flesh.

[01:36:41] [SPEAKER_03]: But then we're cutting to Danny sort of like being in the midst of an episode.

[01:36:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And we see her back in the bathtub sort of raising up like Nosferatu style.

[01:36:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly. Yeah, like he's summoning her.

[01:36:56] [SPEAKER_03]: And maybe he is. Maybe that's like maybe what he's doing is calling on a spirit to like punish his dad.

[01:37:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Protect. Yeah.

[01:37:03] [SPEAKER_03]: And protect him.

[01:37:05] [SPEAKER_04]: It also could be some way of experiencing the trauma of him being abused in that room by either Jack or but it could be like revenge.

[01:37:15] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, it's interesting that it's described early in the movie as a self-induced trance for both Danny and for Jack.

[01:37:22] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like this is something on some level that you're doing.

[01:37:26] [SPEAKER_04]: There's some level of intention there.

[01:37:29] [SPEAKER_04]: OK, Jack and Wendy are talking.

[01:37:33] [SPEAKER_04]: So I don't think we mentioned, but yeah, the Wendy says it was a woman that hurt Danny in room two, three, seven.

[01:37:40] [SPEAKER_04]: That's why he goes down to check it.

[01:37:42] [SPEAKER_11]: That's right. There's somebody else in the hotel.

[01:37:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. And then when he comes back up, he says nobody was there, which is definitely not true based on his experience and that he might have hurt himself.

[01:37:54] [SPEAKER_04]: And then here's where she she makes the mistake of suggesting that they get Danny out of there.

[01:38:00] [SPEAKER_04]: And this could be evidence like the idea that they would get Danny out is not acceptable to the hotel or to Jack in particular.

[01:38:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Like you get the sense maybe they'd be OK if Wendy left.

[01:38:14] [SPEAKER_04]: So that gets him. That sets him off.

[01:38:18] [SPEAKER_04]: And here's where you see all the bitterness and anger and his inability to take responsibility for his failure.

[01:38:24] [SPEAKER_04]: And he just like and he goes out and goes back to the gold room.

[01:38:28] [SPEAKER_04]: And now it's just the 20s.

[01:38:31] [SPEAKER_04]: And the hotel movie just starts cracking up completely at this point, you know, and he sees Lloyd again.

[01:38:39] [SPEAKER_04]: And I love this. He says, like, we're not going to charge you orders from the house.

[01:38:43] [SPEAKER_04]: And then he says, drink up.

[01:38:45] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like you got to be a fucking alcoholic and kill your family.

[01:38:49] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, they're so frustrated with him.

[01:38:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I feel like this is the first time we meet Grady and there's the little spill and then the just awesome.

[01:38:59] [SPEAKER_04]: There's so many just incredible scenes, but the bathroom bathroom scene.

[01:39:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Extraordinary.

[01:39:06] [SPEAKER_03]: So good. So good.

[01:39:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that the saturation of the colors on these sets just vibes of the 2001 Alien Hotel, too.

[01:39:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And you can't can't talk about a Kubrick film without talking about lighting.

[01:39:21] [SPEAKER_03]: This is not a dark movie. No, not like a horror movie is often dark because like that's the vibe.

[01:39:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And this is a movie where you get like lots of gorgeous lighting, daytime lighting throughout the whole thing,

[01:39:36] [SPEAKER_03]: which makes it kind of creepier. Yeah.

[01:39:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And practical lighting in the bar where he just has like the lights shining from the bottom and no totally.

[01:39:46] [SPEAKER_04]: But also the wind from outside and the storm.

[01:39:49] [SPEAKER_04]: So you also get that in addition. I think this is a great scene.

[01:39:53] [SPEAKER_04]: So a couple like filmmaking things, you know, breaking the 180 rule here in the starkest possible way.

[01:39:59] [SPEAKER_04]: And the first time he breaks it, shooting from one side of the bathroom and then from the other side of the bathroom.

[01:40:06] [SPEAKER_04]: So they're on different sides is when he mentions his name is Grady.

[01:40:10] [SPEAKER_04]: And then Jack, you know, he's a little drunk.

[01:40:14] [SPEAKER_04]: He starts thinking like he's a master interrogator of Grady, you know, and right.

[01:40:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. And he's like leading him into some kind of trap to admit it.

[01:40:25] [SPEAKER_04]: And Grady's just like, can we move this off?

[01:40:28] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's very funny.

[01:40:30] [SPEAKER_04]: And then just some of the most famous lines that I quote in our house a lot like indeed he is Mr.

[01:40:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Torrance, a very willful boy, a very naughty boy.

[01:40:41] [SPEAKER_04]: If I may be so bold.

[01:40:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Do you also quote the N word?

[01:40:50] [SPEAKER_04]: That's very shocking when he says it's so shocking.

[01:40:54] [SPEAKER_03]: It's glaring. OK, so here's here's a question I have.

[01:40:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I mentioned before, there seems to me that it's important that Halloran is is a black man.

[01:41:04] [SPEAKER_03]: He has the shining and he's worked at the hotel the whole time.

[01:41:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Like he's but he's not being called by the hotel.

[01:41:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like it's plausible that if this is like revenge on the white man that they're looking for a very specific victim here or absorption, whatever you want to call it.

[01:41:20] [SPEAKER_04]: You think, though, it's revenge on the white man?

[01:41:24] [SPEAKER_03]: No, I don't know how to say it.

[01:41:26] [SPEAKER_03]: But if this is if this is somehow show coming home to showing exactly.

[01:41:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:41:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Or or even just like a stupid like the curse that that that now falls on the head of all Americans for having built it on sacred land.

[01:41:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, if that's true, it didn't last throughout the running time of this movie because Halloran does not get out of.

[01:41:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I hate that scene. I felt so sad both times.

[01:41:59] [SPEAKER_04]: It's yeah. So anyway, like here's where Grady is doing more than nudging.

[01:42:03] [SPEAKER_04]: He's saying, look, you know, they need a good talking to perhaps a bit more.

[01:42:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's great. Like I love the Britishness of it.

[01:42:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Like it makes it more menacing, I think.

[01:42:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. Wendy's in the bedroom talking to herself about what to do because she has no one else.

[01:42:20] [SPEAKER_04]: So she's just literally talking to herself to try to figure it out.

[01:42:23] [SPEAKER_04]: We hear Red Room, I think for the first time.

[01:42:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Coming from the and this is where Danny's gone.

[01:42:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Like Danny's not here. Mrs. Torrance.

[01:42:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I hate that. I hate that Tony voice, by the way.

[01:42:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I like I love the kid, but I just such a grating voice.

[01:42:39] [SPEAKER_04]: I like how he's polite. You know, Mrs. Torrance.

[01:42:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Mrs. Torrance. May I call you Wendy?

[01:42:47] [SPEAKER_03]: We've gotten a couple of splices at this point of Halloran noticing that something is wrong and he's called the Forest Service or whatever.

[01:42:55] [SPEAKER_04]: And Danny drooling with the same drool that like Jack Nicholson had.

[01:43:00] [SPEAKER_04]: That's exactly right. Yeah.

[01:43:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Like so there's, you know, again, there's some kind of connection with that and shining.

[01:43:06] [SPEAKER_04]: But like think of the power of what Danny is doing.

[01:43:09] [SPEAKER_04]: He's Halloran's in Florida and they're in Colorado supposedly.

[01:43:14] [SPEAKER_04]: So that's a big distance to shine, which I guess speaks to his power.

[01:43:20] [SPEAKER_03]: He's a crazy diamond. Yeah. Sorry.

[01:43:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Do you take anything besides dissociation from the fact that Danny has just been swallowed up?

[01:43:28] [SPEAKER_04]: He's gone away, as Tony says. What does that mean? Danny's gone away.

[01:43:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Mrs. Torrance. To me it does seem like he's just protecting Danny.

[01:43:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's what I think too.

[01:43:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Unfortunately for the family, Jack walks by the radio and unblocks it.

[01:43:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Halloran. Well, we should just mention his I guess it's his apartment room or is it a hotel?

[01:43:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not sure, but there's a lot of naked women. Yeah, that's right.

[01:43:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Black women. It's some it's his pad in on the off season.

[01:44:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I think he has like a amazing it's just mirrored like one naked woman on his front, one naked woman behind him.

[01:44:12] [SPEAKER_04]: You never have to not see a naked woman.

[01:44:14] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to turn my head at all. That's right.

[01:44:19] [SPEAKER_04]: What like it's an interesting choice that Cooper makes to really almost get procedural about him getting up there, you know, like spending so much time outside the hotel with Scatman.

[01:44:33] [SPEAKER_04]: I guess to make it even more, you know, shocking when his end comes.

[01:44:38] [SPEAKER_04]: But do you think there's anything beyond that?

[01:44:40] [SPEAKER_03]: For me, it's grounding. It's a reminder that this there is a real world and real people and pragmatic logistical things that need to be solved.

[01:44:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And he's calling his friend to get the snowcat.

[01:44:52] [SPEAKER_03]: He's having to drive his car through the, you know, past the red Volkswagen Beetle that is the one from the book.

[01:45:00] [SPEAKER_11]: But it's distressing. It's stressing the absolute heroic nature of human beings attempt to save someone and to crush that within five seconds.

[01:45:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Just a reminder. You also, because it's intercut with what's going on and like you get the sense this is going to be close.

[01:45:15] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a race against time. And again, it just turns out no, like he's just going to be killed.

[01:45:22] [SPEAKER_04]: And and the one thing, of course, he does bring is their way of exiting the hotel.

[01:45:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's true.

[01:45:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Something as he's riding up in the UC, I don't know if you guys saw this, but there's a red Volkswagen.

[01:45:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, you saw that? You just said I just said, yeah, like it's destroyed by a truck along the side of it.

[01:45:45] [SPEAKER_04]: And you know the story behind that supposedly, right?

[01:45:48] [SPEAKER_03]: No, I just mentioned that it was the red Volkswagen from the book.

[01:45:50] [SPEAKER_04]: So the book, it's a red Volkswagen in this in the movie.

[01:45:54] [SPEAKER_04]: It's yellow and he has a red Volkswagen just completely like jackknifed totaled along the side of the highway by a truck.

[01:46:03] [SPEAKER_03]: You can't be too mad at Stephen King for having some sort of a...

[01:46:07] [SPEAKER_03]: It is personal.

[01:46:10] [SPEAKER_04]: This is you. Like, this is me. I'm the truck.

[01:46:14] [SPEAKER_04]: So shut your ass up and go back to making billions of dollars writing trashy novels.

[01:46:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Wendy and Danny watching Road Runner.

[01:46:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Weird touch.

[01:46:27] [SPEAKER_04]: When they leave, meet me here takes the bat.

[01:46:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Great steady cam shot of the typewriter and Wendy walking towards it.

[01:46:37] [SPEAKER_03]: To me, this is the weirdly the most viscerally distressing part of the movie.

[01:46:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Like even past like the, you know, the hot woman turning into a decrepit like rotten corpse like past.

[01:46:51] [SPEAKER_03]: There is some true horror.

[01:46:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like I feel Wendy's character looking at those pages, stacks and stacks of pages and realizing that month, like whatever hell ever long it's been, nothing has been happening.

[01:47:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I've been doing all this shit.

[01:47:08] [SPEAKER_03]: This guy is just fucking bat shit.

[01:47:10] [SPEAKER_11]: And has been bat shit all along.

[01:47:12] [SPEAKER_03]: And has been bat shit the whole time when I was giving him his sunny side up eggs.

[01:47:15] [SPEAKER_04]: He's waking up at like 1 in the afternoon.

[01:47:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh God.

[01:47:20] [SPEAKER_04]: So and then also very chilling as you get again an over the shoulder shot of Jack coming in and then how do you like it?

[01:47:30] [SPEAKER_03]: God man. So chilling. So chilling.

[01:47:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I gotta say, I like how somebody's taught her to choke up on the bat if she's gonna get some power out of that.

[01:47:39] [SPEAKER_04]: I was thinking she was choking up on it a little too much though.

[01:47:44] [SPEAKER_03]: She was a little bit too much.

[01:47:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, she probably had a little too much tar on it too.

[01:47:49] [SPEAKER_04]: This is where everything's coming to a boil because Danny can see what's happening.

[01:47:53] [SPEAKER_04]: You know this confrontation between them and also like furniture like floating away in the blood from the elevator.

[01:48:00] [SPEAKER_04]: It's just like viscerally just like everything.

[01:48:03] [SPEAKER_04]: And Jack Nicholson is doing that kind of over the top.

[01:48:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Have you ever had a single moment's thought about my responsibilities to my employers?

[01:48:14] [SPEAKER_04]: It's so over the top.

[01:48:18] [SPEAKER_04]: And you know like I love that even though she's choked up a little too much.

[01:48:23] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean it's like I think they did this like 165 takes or something of this scene.

[01:48:28] [SPEAKER_04]: But it's masterful. Like the filmmaking is just like it doesn't get better than this.

[01:48:33] [SPEAKER_11]: And the pace, the pacing, they're moving very slowly.

[01:48:38] [SPEAKER_11]: She's backing up very slowly.

[01:48:39] [SPEAKER_11]: He's following very slowly and he's making these kinds of weird sounds as she's whipping the bat at him.

[01:48:46] [SPEAKER_11]: But to have it stay at that pace all the way through until she finally whacks him, it's extraordinary.

[01:48:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And like a real whack, a real fall was so well done.

[01:48:57] [SPEAKER_03]: So Wendy starts dragging him to the storeroom.

[01:49:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And he's coming to as she's getting to the storeroom, which is a great moment of tension again.

[01:49:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Because you're like he could probably maybe get up before she makes it and she just makes it, locks him in.

[01:49:15] [SPEAKER_03]: This is where we get such the great shot where you see in the behind the scenes with Kubrick about how he was framing the shot.

[01:49:21] [SPEAKER_03]: This great shot of Jack Nicholson comes to and he's just pushed his arms up against the door looking to get the shot from below.

[01:49:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And he's talking to her and she says that she's going to leave.

[01:49:33] [SPEAKER_03]: She's going to get the snowcat and leave.

[01:49:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And this is where he tells her she has a big surprise coming.

[01:49:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, right. He's go.

[01:49:40] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, go, go look at the radio. Go look at the snowcat.

[01:49:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. And so he's not just disconnected the radio.

[01:49:46] [SPEAKER_04]: He's also disconnected the snowcaps.

[01:49:49] [SPEAKER_04]: So they are completely stranded at this point.

[01:49:53] [SPEAKER_04]: And he's just laughing.

[01:49:55] [SPEAKER_04]: But he but it's pathetic.

[01:49:56] [SPEAKER_04]: He's locked in a storeroom like his wife just hit him over the head with the baseball bat.

[01:50:01] [SPEAKER_04]: He's done nothing, you know?

[01:50:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. Right.

[01:50:04] [SPEAKER_03]: So here's where this like stupidly matters to me.

[01:50:08] [SPEAKER_03]: She when she was getting him in the storeroom, there was this moment of suspense where she couldn't open it because it turns out there was like a physical little lock like a like a latch that she had to remove.

[01:50:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that she latched it.

[01:50:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, she does.

[01:50:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, she does.

[01:50:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[01:50:22] [SPEAKER_03]: So he couldn't get out like I don't know if you guys have ever worked in a room with that kind of handle.

[01:50:28] [SPEAKER_03]: He wouldn't be able to get out.

[01:50:29] [SPEAKER_11]: Right.

[01:50:30] [SPEAKER_03]: And and this is where we just hear Grady come presumably to the door and starts talking to him about the business they discussed.

[01:50:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And he's like, you're bargaining like he's like, well, I can't exactly do it right now.

[01:50:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Grady is just like, will you indeed, Mr. Torrance?

[01:50:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I wonder.

[01:50:49] [SPEAKER_04]: I have my doubts.

[01:50:51] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, like they're all and he says that I and others have come to believe that your heart is not in this, that you haven't the belly for it.

[01:51:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Clearly, he's a fuck up and the spirits are worried about him not.

[01:51:04] [SPEAKER_04]: But I also think there's something about the like the heart and the belly.

[01:51:08] [SPEAKER_04]: It might really be true about Jack.

[01:51:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, I don't think that he wants to kill his family.

[01:51:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe Wendy, but like I don't think he wants to kill Danny.

[01:51:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:51:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's consistent with, I think, his response to being accused of having harmed Danny.

[01:51:24] [SPEAKER_03]: And maybe that was part of the whole test.

[01:51:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, maybe that's how they saw that he doesn't have the guts to do it.

[01:51:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, he's just relentlessly attacking his masculinity.

[01:51:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Like your wife seems to be somewhat more resourceful.

[01:51:37] [SPEAKER_04]: She got the better of you.

[01:51:38] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, like it's like it's just so it's so good.

[01:51:42] [SPEAKER_03]: So good.

[01:51:43] [SPEAKER_03]: So he finally convinces him that if you want me to do this, you got to let me out of here.

[01:51:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:51:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And we see Halloran now coming up to the hotel.

[01:51:51] [SPEAKER_03]: He's driving in the snowcat.

[01:51:53] [SPEAKER_03]: He had called a friend of his again, one of those weird logistical pieces.

[01:51:58] [SPEAKER_03]: So here we get a scene of Danny.

[01:52:00] [SPEAKER_03]: So Wendy and Danny are in a room.

[01:52:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Wendy's fast asleep, which I guess it's the one moment where she feels she's safe so she can sleep.

[01:52:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Finally, right.

[01:52:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Because because he's locked in the storage room and she had pulled out a butcher knife or not a butcher knife just like some kitchen knife that then Danny grabs.

[01:52:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And this scene actually makes me recoil all the time.

[01:52:21] [SPEAKER_03]: He tests the blade by running his finger down.

[01:52:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:52:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, God.

[01:52:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And then the lipstick.

[01:52:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. Is this when the lipstick?

[01:52:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Then he grabs a lipstick.

[01:52:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And for the first he's gotten a glimpse of the word red rum written before, which I guess is a glimpse into the future because this is when he actually writes it.

[01:52:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's right.

[01:52:39] [SPEAKER_04]: When the first one had to have been a glimpse at that in the future, him writing it because he writes it right.

[01:52:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, because he writes it.

[01:52:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, there's a sense of reason.

[01:52:47] [SPEAKER_04]: I was going to ask what do you make of the red room and him writing it?

[01:52:50] [SPEAKER_04]: And like it's just he can't actually admit to himself what's actually happening.

[01:52:55] [SPEAKER_04]: And so he has to do it in this kind of backwards way.

[01:52:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's right.

[01:52:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's right.

[01:53:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Something like that.

[01:53:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I hadn't really thought about it specifically that way.

[01:53:03] [SPEAKER_03]: But I think this is one of those cases where like his mind is too young.

[01:53:06] [SPEAKER_03]: He can't.

[01:53:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he can't clearly process what's going on.

[01:53:10] [SPEAKER_11]: That's right.

[01:53:11] [SPEAKER_11]: And it's either it's hard to know what the murder is referring to.

[01:53:14] [SPEAKER_11]: Right.

[01:53:14] [SPEAKER_11]: Is it referring to the is it referring to the past murders that have happened or the murder that's about to happen?

[01:53:18] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, it's happening right before Halloran gets whacked.

[01:53:21] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I think how long he's been whacked in the book.

[01:53:23] [SPEAKER_11]: Right. So this is one major difference between the book and the movie.

[01:53:27] [SPEAKER_11]: How long actually helps him get out.

[01:53:29] [SPEAKER_03]: But the red rum is in the is in the book.

[01:53:32] [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.

[01:53:32] [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.

[01:53:33] [SPEAKER_11]: So I mean, I'm feeling because of the timing here that he's seeing something that's about to happen.

[01:53:37] [SPEAKER_04]: That's what I think, too.

[01:53:40] [SPEAKER_04]: It's referring to the Halloran murder.

[01:53:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Here's where we get that just the famous scene of she she wakes up to him chanting red rum and looks in the mirror.

[01:53:47] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's yeah, I want to be back in that first time because you don't know until you know what red rum is until you watch it.

[01:53:55] [SPEAKER_04]: And for the first time and then you see backwards.

[01:53:57] [SPEAKER_04]: That's just so I think that's when I just lost my shit.

[01:54:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Incredible.

[01:54:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I know.

[01:54:03] [SPEAKER_11]: I'm reading it.

[01:54:04] [SPEAKER_11]: I was reading the book and didn't and didn't put it backwards.

[01:54:08] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.

[01:54:08] [SPEAKER_11]: And until it's until it's revealed in the mirror.

[01:54:12] [SPEAKER_03]: So Jack starts in Jack has grabbed an axe.

[01:54:15] [SPEAKER_03]: He's out of the storage room.

[01:54:16] [SPEAKER_03]: He starts with the axe on the door.

[01:54:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Incredible.

[01:54:20] [SPEAKER_04]: We think Grady let him out.

[01:54:22] [SPEAKER_04]: It's the.

[01:54:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Unless he was able to pull some kind of emergency thing with the indoor like that's the only explanation.

[01:54:29] [SPEAKER_04]: But anyway, he has an axe.

[01:54:31] [SPEAKER_04]: He's finally like limping his way to doing the job.

[01:54:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[01:54:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that when he finally breaks through that first door and says Wendy, I'm home.

[01:54:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Like that's actually funny.

[01:54:41] [SPEAKER_04]: The whole thing is genuinely funny.

[01:54:46] [SPEAKER_04]: This part of the movie is the one part I think that's been a little ruined by all the parodies and all the things you know.

[01:54:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Like absolutely.

[01:54:53] [SPEAKER_04]: It's not that scary.

[01:54:55] [SPEAKER_04]: This part for me.

[01:54:56] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, yeah.

[01:54:57] [SPEAKER_11]: But these are these are areas that are clearly were meant to be funny at least.

[01:55:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:55:01] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean the Wendy I'm home and the here's Johnny.

[01:55:03] [SPEAKER_11]: Those are especially with the Nicholson delivery that's meant to be funny.

[01:55:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:55:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And he improv that.

[01:55:09] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah right.

[01:55:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Here's Johnny.

[01:55:11] [SPEAKER_03]: I saw a YouTuber say that like that line is now more known because of this movie than for because of the tonight show.

[01:55:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And that just made me a little sad.

[01:55:21] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm OK.

[01:55:21] [SPEAKER_03]: So I am genuinely still distressed at her.

[01:55:29] [SPEAKER_03]: They go they run into the bathroom and she opens the bathroom window.

[01:55:33] [SPEAKER_03]: But there's been so much snow that it's like covering half the window.

[01:55:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And she gets the kid out and she can't get out.

[01:55:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Like that actually is like seeing her trying to squeeze through that door and making the sacrifice of telling her son to run.

[01:55:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Thinking she's in for sure.

[01:55:49] [SPEAKER_03]: She's done.

[01:55:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And wait to me and this is before Halloran has been killed.

[01:55:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[01:55:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Before Halloran has been killed.

[01:55:58] [SPEAKER_11]: So then he's distracted from the bathroom to go because he hears how run down.

[01:56:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Yep yep.

[01:56:02] [SPEAKER_03]: She slashes his hand as he breaks through and says they here's Johnny.

[01:56:04] [SPEAKER_03]: That's right.

[01:56:05] [SPEAKER_03]: He hears how come here's a snow cat pulling up.

[01:56:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:56:09] [SPEAKER_03]: And Halloran is just walking through the empty hall of looking for anybody.

[01:56:12] [SPEAKER_03]: And this is the most anticlimactic death ever.

[01:56:15] [SPEAKER_03]: He just gets axed through the chest.

[01:56:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Again completely terrifying like and still is like when I was saying like that you know the here's Johnny stuff doesn't seem scary but that holy shit because you know I always wait a few years before seeing it again and I always forget exactly where Jack is.

[01:56:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:56:33] [SPEAKER_04]: And you get the sense in the way they're showing that he might be behind Halloran.

[01:56:38] [SPEAKER_04]: And so then when he pops up from behind one of those columns it's just been right in the heart.

[01:56:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Like it's right in the heart.

[01:56:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:56:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:56:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:56:48] [SPEAKER_03]: It's sad to white man's burden.

[01:56:51] [SPEAKER_03]: White man's burden.

[01:56:52] [SPEAKER_11]: Do you think that the racist spirits accepted him into the fold or was he.

[01:56:56] [SPEAKER_11]: No.

[01:56:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Rejected.

[01:56:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah no he's he's he's going to to whatever other heaven I think he gets to go to real.

[01:57:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:57:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Hopefully Danny has been this is another like pretty horrifying things that Danny has been he left through the window slid down and what looked kind of fun.

[01:57:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And got back into the hotel and hides in like a little cabinet thing.

[01:57:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:57:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And he that's when he after Halloran gets killed he opens and books it.

[01:57:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:57:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Why didn't why did he go back into the hotel is.

[01:57:32] [SPEAKER_04]: That's a good question.

[01:57:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I think his mom.

[01:57:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah I think you want to wait for her.

[01:57:35] [SPEAKER_04]: I think he just yeah I'm worried about her probably.

[01:57:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:57:38] [SPEAKER_04]: And I love the maze thing.

[01:57:40] [SPEAKER_03]: But for the maze thing though we get that fucking bear.

[01:57:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh God it's so random man.

[01:57:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I had completely for some reason even though we watched room 237 like I've seen plenty of I had completely forgotten about this part all of a sudden Wendy sees a bear on his knees.

[01:57:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:58:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Like a guy in a bear outfit like a bad bear outfit.

[01:58:05] [SPEAKER_04]: A fine bear outfit.

[01:58:06] [SPEAKER_03]: He pulls out.

[01:58:08] [SPEAKER_03]: You see him pull up from the bed and there's another person there and he clearly was sucking the dick of like a tuxedoed British man.

[01:58:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And then they zoom in.

[01:58:19] [SPEAKER_11]: I totally didn't remember this.

[01:58:20] [SPEAKER_11]: I didn't know how many times.

[01:58:22] [SPEAKER_11]: And so I'm reading about it and it says what the hell are they talking about this scene with the bear and the man in the tux?

[01:58:27] [SPEAKER_11]: And there it was like I'd never seen and I don't know why that is there's repression of some sort going on.

[01:58:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my God.

[01:58:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Also the first that Wendy has seen of any supernatural kind of thing.

[01:58:39] [SPEAKER_04]: And now they're going to come flooding for her literally.

[01:58:43] [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah it's just strange.

[01:58:45] [SPEAKER_04]: I guess she's it symbolizes her break or maybe that this is the spirits are just trying to terrify her probably combination of both of those things.

[01:58:55] [SPEAKER_03]: OK so here's a theory I just made up.

[01:58:59] [SPEAKER_03]: The spirits can materialize more as they're absorbing people with the shining.

[01:59:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Halloran has just died.

[01:59:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe that sacrifice has temporarily enabled them to like peek more into the material world.

[01:59:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah maybe yeah and reach people who don't shine.

[01:59:17] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean it was set up earlier in the movie that only people who shine can smell the burnt toast of the residue of the hotel.

[01:59:25] [SPEAKER_04]: But I think that might be right.

[01:59:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Like the hotel now also I think senses a kind of crisis point.

[01:59:31] [SPEAKER_04]: They hired the wrong guy you know.

[01:59:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Unlike what Olin said.

[01:59:42] [SPEAKER_03]: So funny.

[01:59:43] [SPEAKER_03]: So here's where we get.

[01:59:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't make up the bear what you will.

[01:59:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I think there's a plausible sort of sexual tie there.

[01:59:49] [SPEAKER_03]: There's all kinds of theories about this bear if people want to go down that rabbit hole.

[01:59:53] [SPEAKER_03]: But here's where we get to the I think the brilliant piece of filmmaking.

[01:59:57] [SPEAKER_03]: This this maze.

[01:59:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:59:59] [SPEAKER_03]: God man.

[02:00:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Jack sorry Danny runs straight to the maze.

[02:00:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Now I think is I don't know if this is obvious but I think that given that we've seen them be in the maze like plenty of times.

[02:00:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Danny has some familiarity with the maze so this is like yeah he's running there because it gives him some sort of home court advantage.

[02:00:17] [SPEAKER_04]: I think so.

[02:00:18] [SPEAKER_04]: I love the way it's all lit up too because it's night.

[02:00:21] [SPEAKER_04]: But if the floodlights are all on it and it just makes it more terrifying but again well lit you know like well all of it is so well lit.

[02:00:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And here the study cam is just like so good.

[02:00:36] [SPEAKER_03]: You really feel like you're following.

[02:00:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Yep or that somebody's follow.

[02:00:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah somebody is floating right behind and it's not.

[02:00:43] [SPEAKER_04]: And then Jack is a different thing like you see Jack pursuing him but it's a different thing.

[02:00:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And then right again like the spirits can't touch him like they need Jack but they're there they're floating.

[02:00:54] [SPEAKER_04]: And then he can then Danny just outwits his did his father with that move which I just still love.

[02:01:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Like it's just like I got a perfect thing for a kid to appreciate.

[02:01:05] [SPEAKER_04]: It's probably why I showed it to Eliza was like she's gonna love what Danny does at the end.

[02:01:09] [SPEAKER_03]: You know walks on walks on existing footprints jumps back covers his tracks.

[02:01:17] [SPEAKER_03]: You know the first time I ever heard about that trick was in a story that somebody told me about actual Native Americans who like didn't want to be tracked interesting.

[02:01:24] [SPEAKER_03]: And I tried to find anything I could on this about it but like because it was on theme but I couldn't we get a pretty creepy shot of Jack basically right on the other side of the bush.

[02:01:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah but but Danny effectively evaded him.

[02:01:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah and then he keeps you know it's not like he gives up right then he keeps trying to look but you can tell he's starting to lose hope.

[02:01:48] [SPEAKER_04]: And yeah and then nice smash cut to him frozen to death.

[02:01:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Cuts.

[02:01:54] [SPEAKER_04]: So good they get out.

[02:01:55] [SPEAKER_03]: What a jarring jump cut.

[02:01:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[02:01:58] [SPEAKER_04]: And they now have a means of escape thanks to poor Halloran.

[02:02:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for Halloran.

[02:02:04] [SPEAKER_03]: We've gotten.

[02:02:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[02:02:06] [SPEAKER_03]: We've got Wendy sort of running around in a craze in the hotel.

[02:02:10] [SPEAKER_03]: The skeletons holding the knife and yeah I heard a guy from the UK say that the version that they saw didn't have the skeletons.

[02:02:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[02:02:20] [SPEAKER_03]: And he thought it was more effective to not have and I could see why it might be like it's a little sort of not leaving the mystery as mysterious.

[02:02:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[02:02:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah I don't even totally understand that the skeletons are like dressed in costume.

[02:02:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I take it that they're those guests.

[02:02:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[02:02:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah they're definitely dressed like that.

[02:02:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[02:02:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you notice there's no blondes in that ballroom.

[02:02:43] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like they had an invented blondes yet or something.

[02:02:47] [SPEAKER_04]: It's all the pixie cuts and they're like.

[02:02:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[02:02:54] [SPEAKER_04]: So that's I agree.

[02:02:55] [SPEAKER_04]: That's not my favorite part of the movie.

[02:02:57] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like it's like the movie has been so good at terrifying you by showing you very little and then now it's showing you everything.

[02:03:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And the skeletons like it reminded me of like the Pirates of the Caribbean ride in Disneyland.

[02:03:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[02:03:11] [SPEAKER_03]: It's just not quite.

[02:03:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[02:03:13] [SPEAKER_03]: That's the right comparison.

[02:03:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Not quite realistic.

[02:03:16] [SPEAKER_03]: All right.

[02:03:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And then they get in the snowcat and they leave and that's that.

[02:03:20] [SPEAKER_03]: They're safe.

[02:03:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[02:03:23] [SPEAKER_04]: And yeah.

[02:03:25] [SPEAKER_04]: And then all this left is that final slow zoom in to the photo.

[02:03:32] [SPEAKER_03]: The photo and the photo is of a 20s party 19 what is it 21.

[02:03:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And there's Jack in the middle of like this group photo doing this pose with his arms.

[02:03:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And I it's never not perplexed me like what the fuck.

[02:03:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[02:03:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Like what are we supposed to believe about this.

[02:03:54] [SPEAKER_04]: You know Grady had said I don't know if we mentioned this you've always been the caretaker.

[02:03:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[02:04:00] [SPEAKER_04]: I've always been here too.

[02:04:01] [SPEAKER_04]: That's right.

[02:04:02] [SPEAKER_04]: So like the idea that somehow this is a returning thing he even says when he goes back to the bar good to be back which you could interpret as good to be back to the point where you're going to be.

[02:04:15] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm the caretaker who kills his family.

[02:04:18] [SPEAKER_04]: You know but it's still I don't like thinking that he was just reincarnated as this new person that will now like the way I see it this house preys on weak people to do their murderous bidding you know and in the same way that America like corrupts the corruptible.

[02:04:36] [SPEAKER_04]: That's what the house does.

[02:04:37] [SPEAKER_04]: And you really have to be somewhat special to resist that corruption and Jack isn't even close to it and the only good news is he's also not even competent enough to kill his family.

[02:04:48] [SPEAKER_04]: So they get they get away.

[02:04:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Is it just me the first time I saw that I was like what is that Jack or was it just completely obvious like it looks slightly different like I was like is this just somebody who's.

[02:05:01] [SPEAKER_04]: It's definitely him.

[02:05:02] [SPEAKER_04]: No it's a much younger picture of Jack.

[02:05:04] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean it's probably at least 15 20 maybe 15 years earlier.

[02:05:09] [SPEAKER_11]: It's also I mean Kubrick himself has said that Jack is a reincarnation of the earlier official at the hotel.

[02:05:16] [SPEAKER_04]: He said it suggests that he doesn't say that that's his interpretation he said.

[02:05:20] [SPEAKER_11]: But what's weird about the photo is so if he's always been the caretaker you wouldn't think the caretaker of a massive hotel like this would be the person out at front.

[02:05:30] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean he's standing in front of the rest of the crowd as if he's the ringleader not the caretaker right.

[02:05:36] [SPEAKER_11]: And so that interpretation is always puzzling too.

[02:05:39] [SPEAKER_04]: I've always been isn't he in a pose that's like I think I came across this.

[02:05:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah yeah I put that in the demon famous demon and mystical literature.

[02:05:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah so basically this is like a pose that's referring to his so one hand up and one hand down is a pose that is like a direct reference to the phrase as above so below which is kind of a mystical like macrocosm microcosm thing that like what's here is the same as what's above like.

[02:06:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And that pose has been used to visually depict this devilish thing Baphomet like a demon called Baphomet.

[02:06:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Baphomet was a demon that the Knights Templar were accused of worshipping when the Knights Templar and like the 1300s were all basically arrested and accused of blasphemy probably only for their money.

[02:06:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Like there was the story that went around that they had sworn their allegiance to Baphomet.

[02:06:36] [SPEAKER_03]: And in recent like the past 100 years or 200 years that demon Baphomet is always depicted as having the as above so below and that's exactly what he looks like.

[02:06:46] [SPEAKER_03]: So like there is something demonic being depicted right and and and you're right shoe like I hadn't thought about why would the caretaker be the ringleader like that it's like he's he might be more than the caretaker or like the caretaker in some bigger sense.

[02:07:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah yeah but that doesn't square with the fact that he doesn't even come close to the one bit of damage he does right how and which is significant but he almost locks into that the rest of the time he's just like getting his ass kicked like

[02:07:20] [SPEAKER_03]: He's like a the fucked up incompetent reincarnation of this guy.

[02:07:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Like they've kind of messed up.

[02:07:26] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like Gen Z or no Millennials to be fair.

[02:07:31] [SPEAKER_04]: You don't want to insult your daughter.

[02:07:33] [SPEAKER_04]: I meant Millennials. I mean fly edit this out to mean Millennials.

[02:07:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Right because that that guy in that picture is way more powerful and confident than the Jack Weecee.

[02:07:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah I mean like the burden of guilt and failure has weighed on him but in the 20s things are different.

[02:07:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah we used to be able to do what we wanted you know now all of a sudden your political correctness means that I can't write.

[02:08:00] [SPEAKER_04]: But at least we have blondes.

[02:08:08] [SPEAKER_04]: What a fucking good movie.

[02:08:09] [SPEAKER_04]: So good.

[02:08:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Wendy darling light of my life.

[02:08:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Light of my life.

[02:08:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Can I ask one final question of you both.

[02:08:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I said before I somehow couldn't sleep and I blame this movie there was something that was getting to me.

[02:08:25] [SPEAKER_03]: What is the emotion that you feel at the end of this movie like what are you what is the power of what Kubrick has has done here.

[02:08:34] [SPEAKER_11]: For me it's it's it's this episode has ended but that connection to the photo just reminds you this has been going on.

[02:08:42] [SPEAKER_11]: It's true. It's going to continue on and this just dread that yeah this guy came in and fucked it up but there is nothing new.

[02:08:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah this is nothing new.

[02:08:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Nothing new under the sun.

[02:08:51] [SPEAKER_11]: In the book the hotel blows up.

[02:08:53] [SPEAKER_11]: In the book the hotel blows up and that's it.

[02:08:55] [SPEAKER_11]: In this in the movie the hotel is still there alive and kicking presumably.

[02:08:59] [SPEAKER_11]: That's scary.

[02:09:01] [SPEAKER_11]: That's just a sense of dread that I carried beyond this film.

[02:09:04] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think it's exactly that.

[02:09:05] [SPEAKER_04]: This is going to keep happening and one of the things I thought about the overlook hotel as a title.

[02:09:12] [SPEAKER_04]: The reason this keeps coming up is because we deny like our genocidal past and we pretend like we just have this nice hotel just literally built on top of it.

[02:09:21] [SPEAKER_04]: And we don't expect that to come bubble up and affect us and it always will.

[02:09:28] [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't know if there's a way of like addressing it or not but as long as we continue to overlook what we've done like this thing will keep coming back.

[02:09:37] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a great it's a great use of the word.

[02:09:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah totally.

[02:09:41] [SPEAKER_11]: Overlooking over and that and the ambiguity of the spirits.

[02:09:45] [SPEAKER_11]: But honestly it's dread.

[02:09:47] [SPEAKER_11]: I have felt I haven't.

[02:09:48] [SPEAKER_11]: Of the alcoholic and ghostly kind.

[02:09:49] [SPEAKER_04]: I have not felt right since I watched it yesterday.

[02:09:51] [SPEAKER_04]: It was my birthday yesterday.

[02:09:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Happy birthday Sam.

[02:09:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.

[02:09:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I had a very nice birthday but like except like after I was done with this and like till today it's just like I have this like pit in my stomach like something's wrong you know.

[02:10:04] [SPEAKER_04]: And I like I think that like very few movies affect me like that.

[02:10:09] [SPEAKER_03]: That's true and sure like you're onto this like this.

[02:10:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Had it just ended with them driving away in the snowcat.

[02:10:14] [SPEAKER_03]: It's kind of a happy ending.

[02:10:16] [SPEAKER_03]: But like it's so such a good call to do that.

[02:10:20] [SPEAKER_03]: That shot which for me at first leaves me perplexed but but it's clearly an illusion to like this and this has been going on for a long time.

[02:10:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's not going to stop.

[02:10:32] [SPEAKER_04]: All right well I guess that's it.

[02:10:34] [SPEAKER_04]: You know you could it's just phenomenal that like I've seen this movie probably close to 10 times and it still gets to me like it's just it's miraculous.

[02:10:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Best Kubrick movie.

[02:10:50] [SPEAKER_03]: There's a there's a I think I have a saw always have a soft spot for 2001 for it.

[02:10:56] [SPEAKER_04]: It's up there.

[02:10:58] [SPEAKER_11]: That clockwork orange for me.

[02:11:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Well Shue thanks so much for joining us.

[02:11:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much.

[02:11:03] [SPEAKER_04]: This was great.

[02:11:04] [SPEAKER_04]: This was a lot of fun.

[02:11:05] [SPEAKER_04]: So much fun.

[02:11:06] [SPEAKER_04]: It was.

[02:11:08] [SPEAKER_11]: I want to go back and watch the movie again with all this new information.

[02:11:11] [SPEAKER_04]: That's the point of our podcast is to get people to do shit like that.

[02:11:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Watch movies read boy has and occasionally do some philosophy and psychology.

[02:11:21] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.

[02:11:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks again Dave.

[02:11:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Join us next time on a very bad way.

[02:11:44] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm a very good man.

[02:11:52] [SPEAKER_07]: Brains that you have.

[02:12:00] [SPEAKER_06]: Anybody can have a brain.

[02:12:06] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm a very good man.

[02:12:08] [SPEAKER_06]: Just a very bad wizard.