Episode 274: Can I Get a Kidney Voucher? (with Vlad Chituc)

[00:00:00] Very Bad Wizards is a podcast with a philosopher, my dad, and psychologist Dave Pizarro, having

[00:00:06] an informal discussion about issues in science and ethics. Please note that the discussion

[00:00:10] contains bad words that I'm not allowed to say, and knowing my dad, some very inappropriate jokes.

[00:00:17] You on the other hand, well, you're a pit of despair. You disgust me. You disgust everyone.

[00:01:25] first time guest, a guy who has been called the wokest man in America, but Vlad, I just have one question. How do you pronounce your last name? That is an

[00:01:31] excellent question. So this has been actually a huge source of like

[00:01:34] existential angst for me. So in Romanian, where my family is from, it'd be

[00:01:39] pronounced Kida. I grew up saying Chicha. That is because my mom was very

[00:01:43] conscious of us being immigrants. Like my you're in a good comedy. Yeah, you do. To this day, I will go to conferences, and without fail, at least 102 people will come up to me

[00:03:00] and be like, are you Vlad from Very Bad Wizards?

[00:03:02] And I'll be like, yes, hello, it's so nice to be here.

[00:03:05] I'm just, I actually re girlfriend. So in many ways, I would say even my relationships a little bit gay. So. No follow. No follow. Let's just let that one go. Yeah, it's a beautiful. By the way, you know, I spent a semester at Duke when Vlad was an RA there. And I feel like I told you every other day,

[00:04:21] are you sure you're not gay, man?

[00:04:23] Like, I'm sure.

[00:04:25] I will say this, like, I think there are also

[00:04:27] two sources of anxiety. I guess. But that seems- This is not a liar. This is a man who donated his kidney to a company. Yeah, we're talking about how ethical I am on this episode. This episode dedicated to how good a person I personally am. So we're going to be talking about Vlad's kidney donation and effective altruism and its critics in the second segment.

[00:05:42] But first, if you want to find out whether you're gay enough to be officially bi, maybe You know how plethysmography is essentially just you put a little ring around your penis and it measures blood flow? And so they show you pictures or videos or whatever. Of like little kids? That's what I don't know. I assume it's something like that. You would have to ask the prosecuting attorneys in those states.

[00:07:02] I don't think it's very well validated, but people have tried to use it.

[00:07:07] Yeah. they were of straight men. Now, take that with a grain of salt. I don't know that it's been replicated, and I don't know that anybody will ever try doing that study again. But we're not talking about that. That's not what we're talking about. Not talking about any of this. Yes, I ever threw a weird wrench into our discussion by just being like, LOL, last time I was out here, I said I was straight.

[00:08:20] Yeah, but also, LOL, you said last time you were on here,

[00:08:24] you were unmedicated for your ADHD,

[00:08:26] and somehow we're supposed to believe

[00:08:27] that you are this time around. science, I think. So you're probably doing the right thing. Yeah, what are we talking about, Dave? We're talking about a paper that came out in a journal that I did not know existed called Nature Climate Change, which I guess is a subsidiary of Nature, called Leveraging Neuroscience for Climate Change Research. This is a paper that came out not too long ago, caught my

[00:09:42] attention by somebody's tweet. We weren't even going to do it because it seemed like is that it costs a little bit more money to put these kinds of figures into a paper. I'm gonna include this as chapter art. Because the claim that they're making here is that there is a reciprocal relationship between the brain and a changing environment. Now, we know that for readers of nature climate change, that's a complicated thing to wrap your head around.

[00:11:00] So what they've done is they've got basically

[00:11:03] like a clip art globe with an arrow going

[00:11:06] to like a clip art head they put a reference in there. And so I went to look at the reference. And it is a scale of climate change anxiety that was developed and validated just to show, look, there's anxiety and there's climate change anxiety.

[00:12:21] And so the authors go on to say, look, since it's different,

[00:12:23] we should really look in the brain

[00:12:25] to see what makes it different. during COVID too. And there are some papers like what can neuroscience tell us about fighting poverty, I'm sure. Like what can behavioral science tell us about fighting COVID or whatever. And every time I see one of those, I'm kind of like, who wanted this? Like who is the person? Was it, are there like climate scientists out there who are like, you know what we really need to like help address this?

[00:13:40] A better understanding of the neural correlates

[00:13:42] for what happens when you look at virtual reality trees

[00:13:45] compared to real trees.

[00:13:46] I suspect that probably isn't what happened. and non-human mortality, decreased cognitive performance and ability to learn, decreased self-control, and have been associated with increases in crime rates and civil conflict. Each standard deviation increase in temperature or extreme rainfall has been shown to increase the frequency of interpersonal violence by 4%, and intergroup conflict by 14%. Amazing precision on those numbers.

[00:15:00] So let me talk about like poor air quality, and then they're like, and you know, like

[00:15:04] weather events stress you out. or environmentally harmful behaviors. Research along this pathway, I like that they call it a pathway as if that's a thing. The pathway of like looking at our brain can be informed by neuroscientific sub-disciplines such as neuroeconomics or social neurosciences. Those credible fields should aim to identify neural correlates

[00:16:23] of human emotions, cogn color scientist thing, but like marry the climate scientist. I think you can know every single fact about the brain and how that relates to like different psychological whatever's you care about as it relates to the climate. It's something that probably gets you no closer to actually solving climate change. Like I just don't, I don't know what the steps are supposed to be from like the, okay, there's this pie towards like taking this climate whatever behavior to like, okay, here's how we fix it. Where it's like, I don't

[00:17:41] think like knowing about the brain is going to get you to like, you know, even if we accept

[00:17:44] that say, use it to help promote good behavior? I don't think you would. I mean, like, if you know that there are these like barriers where, you know, folks are, you know, I'm trying to think of like something concrete. And I'm kind of I'm kind of like, maybe I'm maybe I'm trying to steal man this too hard. I'm having a hard time actually thinking of like anything that actually like this. This is the issue, like the neuroscience part, like even what you said, Vlad,

[00:19:02] where maybe maybe there's the hope that individual level

[00:20:08] get close to talking about, interventions-wise, is kind of crazy, but like, is at least an experimental manipulation. And that's when they talk about transcranial magnetic stimulation

[00:20:12] to try to get people to think differently about, let me pull up this. So they say, brain

[00:20:18] simulation techniques moreover allow researchers to causally test psychological models of sustainable

[00:20:23] decision making by experimentally manipulating the underlying neurocognitive processes. we make that impact the environment. And different things might influence the way we think about. Right. Like what I think about when I think recycling, it seems very different than what I think about when I think about eco friendly hunting practices or something. Yeah. Like that's all just the thought that this would just show up in the brain and that you could get a magnet to like make people more

[00:21:41] liberal about the environment is fucking insane.

[00:21:45] Like this is insanity.

[00:21:46] Yeah. Like why are like who is This is like me when I start talking about UFOs and ghosts. This isn't scientific and it has a philosophical orientation that I don't even understand what their assumptions are. So let me... So here's... They're talking about questions for PathB.

[00:23:00] That's the one where our study of the while simultaneously continuing to persist with environmentally harmful habits. This disassociation may help get a better conceptual grasp

[00:24:21] on processes such as cognitive dissonance

[00:24:24] and their role in the context of sustainable actions.

[00:24:27] This is the thing that you want it to do.

[00:25:41] Yeah.

[00:25:42] No, I think I agree with that.

[00:25:43] My phrasing of that shit crazy then is more out.

[00:25:46] There's a section that is, I think, Do not give me like virtual reality trees. Don't like put me in like a Soma VR thing where I don't want to. I, yeah, like a ready player one. Yeah. Like just the, yeah, just the earth is just a smoldering hell hole. And we're all just. You can put up that. Air conditioning. Put up the act later on our 2049 thing.

[00:27:00] Yeah.

[00:27:01] Yeah.

[00:27:02] But with air conditioning and like the Apple vision pro.

[00:27:04] No, you gotta go.

[00:27:05] They've got to go touch the virtual grass.

[00:27:06] Am I right?

[00:27:07] Sorry.

[00:27:08] Yeah. approximately 200 megawatts, megawatt hours, I think, per year, equivalent to the average energy consumption of 18 US homes per year. Conference travel is another major contributor. Travel emissions at one conference, resonated to be 1.3 to 1.8 tons of carbon per attendee. So basically, they could just stop, and it would actually have a better impact on the

[00:28:22] environment than doing this research.

[00:28:23] How do you write that and then not immediately just civil disobedience, and lobbying relevant societies to help advance

[00:29:40] green policies and lives.

[00:29:41] No, fuck civil disobedience.

[00:29:43] That's something people who do that stuff would say.

[00:29:46] Fund eco-terrorism. their brains and then make them. Laurie? Laurie Santos. Laurie Santos. Laurie, where you at? Laurie, we need you. So this actually is a good entryway into our next segment because I don't think any of us think that effective altruism is like this when it comes to its legitimacy. But that has been in question lately in some circles.

[00:31:03] So let's talk about that when we come back. therapy, whether it's learning positive coping skills, developing better habits, how to set boundaries. Therapy can empower you to be the best version of yourself or at least a much better version of yourself. I could be a better version of myself. Who among us couldn't use to be a better version of themselves? So if you're thinking of starting therapy, give better help a try.

[00:32:22] It's entirely online.

[00:32:23] It's designed to be convenient, flexible, suited to your schedule. Welcome back to Very Bad Wizards. rate is on Spotify. We've gotten a few of your Spotify year-end Spotify wraps. We know that a lot of you listened to us a lot more than we would have ever expected. If you want to support us in more tangible ways you can donate to us via PayPal for one-time donation. You can buy merchandise. You can buy t-shirts or

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[00:36:22] So if for some reason you want to hear more of us rambling, definitely become a Patreon interested in at least this kind of orientation, this kind of approach, ethical approach, and then of course leading up to your kidney donation. Totally. Tamla, I love this bit where we're doing where you'll just say stuff about me that's false. So I would not personally identify as an effective altruist. I think I have a lot of sympathies with effective altruism. I wouldn't necessarily consider myself part of the movement.

[00:37:42] Okay.

[00:37:42] You're on the spectrum.

[00:37:43] I'm on the spectrum.

[00:37:44] Actually, we've already divulged a lot

[00:37:46] about my personal life. many other people that teach them. Maybe teaching is the wrong word. I feel like I see a lot of people bringing it up as a sort of like, gotcha against utilitarianism, the sort of like demandingness objection and so on, where it's like, once you accept utilitarianism, you've got to live at like a subsistence level and give all your money to charity kind of thing. Tamler, do you remember? Do you remember we had Peter Singer on the podcast? Yes, I do. Of course you remember him, of course.

[00:39:00] Well, it's more recent.

[00:39:02] Significantly, actually.

[00:39:04] It's a total classic. Don't do that. But I think it's like useful information to know that you can treat 1000 times

[00:40:20] as many like 10000 times as many people with like relatively expensive, say

[00:40:24] surgeries in India or like these other were going to be political revolutionaries. If they did it, you as a critic of neoliberalism, like, what the fuck are you doing to help people who are dying

[00:41:41] preventable deaths? It kind of felt like a put of money where you're not this sort of

[00:41:46] thing. I felt a lot of like defending my perspectives at that point. I'm just like doing my research and writing and I can be flexible with that. So like, once I defend my perspectives and qualify, like that's when I'm going to go donate my kidney and that kind of coincided with COVID, um, unfortunately.

[00:43:01] So I waited to do it until COVID kind of like died down a little bit and I got my

[00:43:05] vaccine and then that's when I kind of started the process.

[00:44:02] And then who really does like the cloud?

[00:44:07] Where it's like obviously yeah

[00:44:12] It's a I think a very normal thing to like want recognition for the things you do where it's like if you do something Okay, but seriously, why not just keep quiet about it? Just well, so let me

[00:44:16] I'm loving you a softball. Let me give you

[00:44:19] Quiet on and stop using it for pussy. Yeah

[00:44:26] So

[00:45:23] She also just signed up after she heard me talk about it. So if I can talk about it and one,

[00:45:25] get other people sort of inspired to do it, that's awesome.

[00:45:28] And two, I think it's good when people do good things

[00:45:31] and get recognized for it.

[00:45:32] There's this weird anxiety I just don't understand

[00:45:35] that a lot of people have where it's like,

[00:45:36] if I was like a really,

[00:45:37] like I used to bake a lot more bread than I do now,

[00:45:39] but it's like, if I baked a really nice looking loaf

[00:45:41] of bread and I posted it on Instagram and some people were

[00:45:43] like, damn, that's a nice looking loaf of bread,

[00:45:45] like that's a good thing.

[00:45:46] Like I did something cool.

[00:45:47] And then people are like, hey, that's a cool thing you did.

[00:45:49] And I'm like, thank you. We heard. I know. My point was more like this is the thing that like this cause needs is people coming out and saying, I did it. I did it just to help someone who might otherwise die. It wasn't like this major procedure that put my life in danger. It was just a normal surgery, elective surgery.

[00:47:01] Yeah.

[00:47:02] So like a few things really quick.

[00:47:03] So one, I think this is just like unambiguously there's always going to be an element of like, you can decide everything right. And sometimes you just get fucked over. Like you can play a hand absolutely perfectly. And sometimes there's like the 2% chance that person has like the one card they need to win. And like when that happens, it's like, shit, that sucks. But it's like, you still did the right thing. You should still feel good about the hand you played. So it's like, yeah, 99 times out of 100, the person who's kidney, you're, you know, the

[00:48:21] person whose life you're saving by giving them a kidney, they're not going to be Hitler.

[00:48:24] But if you're like the one person out of 100 who don daughter needing kidney. No, it's not. Maybe let me finish Tamler before I go. Sorry. So I think one, it's just like very, very unlikely, but two, like people have thought about this. Like once you sign up to donate your kidney, they give you like five vouchers and they're like, you give this to someone and then if they ever need a kidney, they just like redeem

[00:49:40] this voucher and you could only redeem one and then they just go to the top of the line

[00:49:43] and then they just get a kidney.

[00:49:44] Very rarely if like your daughter-

[00:49:45] Wait, you get five?

[00:49:46] Yeah, but only one person can redeem a voucher. Can they give it to somebody else? No, it's like non-transferable. It's like those five people. You gave Dan Ariely one year five kidneys? Yes. And I would do it again. Dad's been very generous to me.

[00:51:00] He's been very, very generous to me.

[00:51:01] That's a bad system.

[00:51:03] I maintain that's a bad system.

[00:51:04] You should be able to hold on to it until somebody you like, Which is why people typically need new kidneys it fucks up both of them like you don't have a spare kidney The only way the only sense in which you have a spare kidney is like if you get like a car accident And one of your kidneys gets like fucked up then you have no I see so it's like it needs doesn't do us any good It does not do any good to have an extra kidney because like the thing that's gonna fuck up your kidneys is gonna fuck up Oh, so the only way in which my life is different is I have to take a set of menafin instead of ibuprofen

[00:52:20] And there's like a specific kind of like radioactive imaging that they can't inject me with which they would never do anyway I don't want to give some Karen. No cowardice for me. Okay. But yeah, no, it's a great question. I always ask my students this. Everyone here, me included, could save a life or at least be like, you know, 70 to 80%

[00:53:40] certain that we could save a life right now.

[00:53:44] And then I just, I give them all this's rash. Yeah. I think that's actually a really good analogy, because I used to be a vegan for a really long time. And I've kind of joked that I've only ever really been a fair-weather vegan, and that I've only been vegan when I'm not that hungry, and my life's going well. So it's been six or seven years since I've been. That's the truth. Usually, I'll just be like, however many years I've been in grad school is how many years since I've been a vegan.

[00:55:00] But I think that's such a nice point of comparison,

[00:55:03] because even though I was convinced by all the arguments,

[00:55:06] the benefit of it altruist that I don't personally like, but I think is the good version of that effective altruist. I think that's exactly right. So he has my respect, like hardcore. He puts his money where his mouth is. So I think he's awesome. And he did it recently as well. But again, this is one time my friend asked me

[00:56:20] why I donated my kidney.

[00:56:21] And I kept having these conversations,

[00:56:22] like the one we're having now, where I give all the reasons

[00:56:25] I donated my kidney.

[00:56:26] And then that just does not move anyone at all.

[00:56:28] And then eventually, I just care about myself less and I think like that would give you the exact same problem

[00:57:42] But but I think like Peter Singer, I don't know I think and I think will McCaskill like I don't really care. Like am I. You're talking exactly. You're talking to somebody who has zero tattoos. I don't think Tamara you have either. The only thing I have is like the nipple rings that John Hayley has season five of Fargo. But it's that like I'm tattoo like piercing. Yeah. No it's like it's also. But you're also talking to somebody who like for a tooth extraction.

[00:59:02] Like I was like I might never wake up.

[00:59:05] No.

[00:59:07] Yeah.

[00:59:08] I'm sorry.

[01:00:01] I have no mouth, but I must scream. Yeah.

[01:00:02] This came up in the Severance episode with Paul Bloom.

[01:00:04] He told us this, and it freaked me out.

[01:00:07] Yeah.

[01:00:07] And then so I told people.

[01:00:08] No, I got that from Paul Bloom, too.

[01:00:09] In a lab meeting, Paul Bloom was talking

[01:00:10] about the perfect torture thing.

[01:00:12] And I was like, oh, fuck.

[01:00:13] No, totally.

[01:00:14] Yeah, 100%.

[01:00:15] But here's my question about that,

[01:00:17] because I always say this to other people,

[01:00:18] and they ask me this question, and I don't know the answer.

[01:00:21] If that's true, then what does the anesthesia do?

[01:00:25] It not only makes you forget, but it also on the brink of death, right? And just trust that they're not in any pain because they can't move. It's more of an art than a science. It's so weird because it's like, they made me sign 15 forms saying that I was aware that I possibly could die from the surgery. Were the chances of dying, or so minuscule,

[01:01:40] that I'm pretty convinced that me driving to Hartford

[01:01:42] at five in the morning did more to put my life at risk

[01:01:45] than undergoing the surgery.

[01:01:47] And I asked the surgeon, researching charitable organizations and directs funding to a few of the highest impact opportunities they've found in global health and poverty alleviation for people who are living right now and who need our help the most. Over 100,000 donors have used GiveWell to donate more than a billion dollars to these worthy causes. And that's something I think both David and I are very proud of. If you've never donated through GiveWell before, you can have your donation matched up to $100 before the end of the I've seen that's able to do this, and in part, this is because of the features that it gives you. So it has automatic chapter detection, for instance. It can pull data tables out of the papers

[01:05:41] and present them within the app

[01:05:44] so that you can see them if you need to.

[01:05:46] It can read math equations, Let's get to some criticisms of effective altruism. There have always been these criticisms, but with the full-on embrace of Silicon Valley to effective altruism, and of course, like the Sam Bankman Freed, who is a huge proponent of effective altruism and connected with the movement at every level.

[01:07:05] These criticisms are more visibility to these criticisms. them. I have some thoughts on where I stand on some of these, but I want to know just your initial take. I think the long term, like the long term is a shift in effect of altruism is like one of the worst things that's ever happened to a movement ever. I think it is very, like very patently, transparently, like really fucking stupid. There seem to be these like long,

[01:08:22] you know, well recognized sort of like reduct like, this isn't altruism and this isn't effective. They've done a really good job of convincing themselves that the kind of stuff that they personally care about as like nerds living in Silicon Valley is like the most important thing for anyone to be ethically focusing on. And they just like sold out all of their principles to do.

[01:09:42] And I think like the Sam Bingman free stuff,

[01:09:44] I think the Sam Altman opening AI stuff

[01:09:45] because I think like really, really made that clear.

[01:09:47] And the last like little tang way I disagree with some of the more extreme criticisms of it as just a con game is whatever the limitations of effective altruism and its practitioners

[01:11:04] and their motives, it's not like these people that have gone into this movement would have been like

[01:12:21] political revolutionaries destabilizing the status quo.

[01:12:25] That wasn't in the cards for these people.

[01:12:27] And so the fact that they're giving terms, quantification, optimization, the math of long term termism is going to be, it's going to win their hearts. If you make everything about numbers, will it always gravitate in this direction? Because you can just do the math. Like Will McCaskill's new book, like, has all these models that justify in the same

[01:13:40] way that math has always justified which charities if not to the extent that they think so. The question is whether, not whether one should rationally be attracted to long-termism, but whether the kind of people who are attracted to this way of doing ethics

[01:15:00] will be captured by that kind of thinking.

[01:15:05] Yeah, I suspect probably.

[01:16:04] how many quailies is like, you know, a $50,000 grant to like the future of humanity Institute or whatever. Like, what is that behind you? Like, they don't have an answer to that. So

[01:16:08] I think again, it feels like this great tragedy in the sense where it's like, you know, they're

[01:16:11] subverting their principles for their own self interest in a way that I think is like

[01:16:14] deeply ironic and like maybe unavoidable. But I don't think it follows necessarily from

[01:16:18] like the principles of the movement itself. Say,

[01:16:20] But wait, why there? Why do you keep saying that it's in their self interest to be long

[01:16:24] term? Oh, because it's like there's a so obviously just self-interest. They could just buy boats and islands. This is still some step, which I think is why I a sudden it doesn't seem so unreasonable. But what you've lost in that whole thing is that like compassion for somebody who's dying

[01:19:01] and suffering right now might actually require more attention

[01:19:06] than the mathematical possibility of wiping out

[01:19:08] the whole human race. that Sam MacMefreed, Nick Bostrom, and people who are really concerned with the AI apocalypse, like, is it most of, well, I don't know, is most of effective altruism just doing fine? I think it is. So I think Friend of the Pod, Yolen Barr, he sent me a link on Twitter that showed

[01:20:21] the breakdown of spending

[01:20:22] within the effective altruism community.

[01:20:24] I think probably, if I remember right,

[01:20:25] maybe like fact check this later,

[01:20:26] I think it was about like I see no overlap at all between that and like what effective altruists are doing. So I think if there is this fracture, I think that'd be good as a whole for the movement, especially since like, I think in recent months, specifically, that it's been this association with the AI contingent has, I think, been really, really embarrassing for like the whole movement like as a whole, like in a lot of people's public perception, like effective

[01:21:43] altruism is just a bunch of nerds worrying about like whether Skynet is going to kill

[01:21:47] all of us, you know, whatever, trying, doing to be an effective altruist is no different than what you'd be doing if you weren't an effective altruist,

[01:24:20] which is living in the Bahamas and trading crypto,

[01:24:23] maybe that's a reason to look in the mirror

[01:24:24] and be like, oh, maybe this is all just me trying

[01:24:27] to tell myself the stories that I feel like What do you think, though, of this one criticism? I really recommend this Amias Srinivasan essay, this review of Will McCaskill's book. And I don't have anything against Will McCaskill, but it's a really good review, and I think it raises a lot of worries about effective altruism that have come true in spades.

[01:25:41] This idea that it kind of reinforces

[01:25:43] this individualist way of thinking about ethics, I agree with that 100%. I still think like as an individual within the system, probably the best thing to be spending your money on is like bed nuts instead of like, you know, like? In both... Sometimes when I hear people talk about systemic problems and when I hear people talk about this sort of utilitarian, effective mindset, they both seem to me to sometimes be lacking

[01:28:20] in a firm grounding in the humanity of others.

[01:28:25] And they...

[01:28:27] Of course not all. say, say the proper incantation before your talk or whatever, you know, and and really just like there is again, maybe it's not very effective, but I can't shake the fact that like human morality to thrive and to avoid the like kind of long termism, the natural step toward the extremes. We need to just be there and talk to people who are suffering and try to help.

[01:29:44] I feel like there's a big disanalogy that you're making with the people who

[01:30:48] systemic critiques is not in principle barred from caring about other people more compared to the utilitarian.

[01:30:49] Yeah, I wasn't making an in principle claim.

[01:30:52] And like I said, this is totally unfair characterization of many people who are fighting on both sides.

[01:30:59] It's just that I see there is a seem to matter more in a sort of weird, powerful way. And I feel like that actually maybe weirdly fits into this kidney donation kind of thing where I just feel like your world gets a lot smaller. But in a way that I actually feel like now it makes me a better person, where I just feel like I'm more invested in the people around me and I'm trying to do more to affect my small corner and not have these big,

[01:32:21] global, grand, generation-expanding ambitions of morality.

[01:32:26] It's more just like, So I started like going to the gym and shit like that. So I actually got like beefier and now I've got like a beard, my voice is deeper. So I don't blame you for that relationship. Anyway, you heard him ladies and men. Yeah, but yeah, I'm sorry for busting your balls, Tumblr. It is genuinely a joy to be back.

[01:33:40] Invite me again on any time.

[01:33:42] It's always such a, such a pleasure.

[01:33:44] Well, if you, if you fucking hook us up with vouchers,

[01:33:46] you know, tell your friends,