The Lotus Eaters Episode 4: I Am Odysseus [unlocked]

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02] Dear listeners, thank you for joining us on our voyage into Homer's Odyssey. You're listening to The Lotus Eaters, a 12-part series on Homer's Odyssey that was funded by our generous supporters over at Patreon.com. It's because of that support that we're able to release this series for everyone. If you'd like to join them in supporting us, please head over to Patreon.com slash VeryBadWizards. One of the benefits will be that you'd get access to all of the Lotus Eaters at once rather than having to wait every week for a new episode to

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_02] drop, but you'd also get access to hundreds of hours of other bonus content and Zeus would smile down upon you for your generosity in supporting us. So thank you for listening. Let's get to the episode.

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_00] Welcome to another episode of The Lotus Eaters.

[00:01:29] The Lotus Eaters.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_00] This is our actual name. Finally. This is the first time we've announced it, although I think you back...

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I back-labeled the first couple to be consistent. Yeah, it's like having a baby and not naming it for a year. Yeah. Just calling it the baby.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_00] The Lotus Eaters is good. It was a listener, actually a Patreon supporter, recommended it, and I just thought it's kind of perfect, you know?

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, totally. It also makes me want to do drugs every time I think about it.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, exactly. It captures that side of us, the drug lovers. It has a little bit of... I only noticed this afterwards, but a little bit of the aiders, Lotus Eaters. Yeah, totally. Yep. So it's really perfect. And we will meet the Lotus Eaters in not this episode, but the next episode. But in this episode, we are going to be talking about books seven and eight.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_00] Odysseus is on the Phaeotian island, and he has been given instructions already to approach Arete and Alcinous and beg them to give him a ship to sail them home. So he does that. He's finally fed and has a banquet and hears songs about some of his own adventures, as well as the amorous adventures of the gods.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_00] He gets involved in games, like a kind of Olympic Games type of competition. Feats of strength. Yeah, feats of strength of all kind. And as a result of that, as a result of his reactions to some of the songs about the Trojan War, they more or less realize that he's somebody real, that this is a real guy.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_00] And by the end, he has agreed to tell the story of what happened to him since leaving Troy. And of course, that will cover the next four books is those stories. But there's a lot going on, I think, in these two books. What did you think about them?

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_02] They're great. I mean, there is this like overall vibe that I kept having, which is, you know, we were talking before about the like kind of liminal space, the halfway house for humanity and like the weirdness of this island. And I didn't find it to be like that weird or uncanny, except for when I think about this whole situation. And it feels like I'm waiting for another shoot to drop.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_02] So I guess I'm kind of agreeing that it is uncanny in the sense that like there's something that's like, what's going to happen? Like, I feel like Odysseus is being very careful. So are they. Like there is it just you get this feeling like what's supposed to be happening here? What's going to happen?

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_00] There's a tension. There's a weird tension. Yeah. Actually, there's a moment that I think captures this perfectly, which is when he finally he's able to get into the palace, Alcinous and Arete's palace. And he, as instructed, throws himself at the knees of Arete, the queen. And he basically prostrates himself, says, please take me home. Help me to get back home quickly. I miss my family. I've been gone so long it hurts.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_00] And then he sits down and nobody does anything for a while. You know, it's like, OK. And then finally, Alcinous speaks up. He's described as an elder statesman of Phaeisha. And he says, all right, Alcinous, look, you can't leave a stranger sitting there on the floor. Make him get up. Give him some food. Like this is normal Xenia stuff here.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_00] You got to give make libations to Zeus because he loves the needy. Like, let's go, you know. And then that kind of like breaks the spell. But there are a bunch of these times where there is this little spell where who knows what's going to happen at that moment. And it's almost like they don't know what to do.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, totally. And you're already getting like a weirdness where, you know, we learn more about the magical island and how none of the crops ever die. There's no winter. All this like good stuff. And we even had like Alcinous's daughter, Nausicaa being like nice and nothing bad's happened. But Athena comes through and is like, I need to shroud this guy in a mist like to protect him all the way from here, just from here to the palace. Because because what?

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_02] Because like they don't like strangers because he's in some peril. So just like the walk from Athena's, I guess, little garden to the palace is like shrouded. And the mist of a god is the only thing keeping him alive.

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, it's not totally clear, right? Yeah.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_02] She's like, so that nobody will mock you. But it's like, well, or probably sling an arrow at you.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_00] That's what I don't know. I don't get the sense that they do that either. I think it's just a part of their like isolation and their kind of like insular little community on this island that almost nobody ever goes to and nobody ever leaves unless they're an outsider in the first place and they agree to take them.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_02] They have to marry their nieces.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, exactly. They have to marry their nieces because the way you don't do that is when the women or the daughters meet somebody and they sail away to their kingdom. But that's not what happens here. So, you know, they see the outsider as alien and Nausicaa also says in the previous books, the men will also bear grudges against me because they'll think, oh, who's this outsider? She has all these suitors here and yet she's not satisfied with us.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_00] She wants to be with this new exotic cool guy. What a little hoe. Yeah, like the Christian Slater from Heathers, you know. I don't remember, but I believe you. Yeah, deep cut. Deep Gen X cut there. But anyway, so that comes through in this. You know, I gave a little bit of my ideas about the Phaeacians last time.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_00] I think they also represent like setting aside the uncanniness and the strangeness, even though this is related. I think the emphasis is this is what happens when you don't venture out. You know, this is what happens when people don't leave their island. And Odysseus is a great example of what happens when you do leave, you know. And your whole personality is different. Your whole way of viewing the world is different. And they are two different forms of life.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_00] And I think this is a heightened presentation of the form of life where you stay in your small town. You stay on your island and your children. And it's very homey, you know, like and it's a beautiful small town with like like you said gardens. It's a kind of paradise.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_00] But you have no idea about actually what goes on in the world. And so when that's brought to you and presented to you, that can seem like a threat. And there's some great examples of this as we go through that I'll talk about then. Yeah.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_02] It's also though weird. It's like ironic that they are skilled at shipmaking and like at sailing the seas. It's like, well, what are you doing then? Like it's like they're willing to go on these like missions where their boats go swifter than any other boats like to distant lands. But they never really go out.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_00] They never go out themselves. They're delivery services. You know, they're like a limo service for this whole world. But they always come back. Yeah. And it's that very thing that is prophesied to fuck them over later because Poseidon doesn't love this idea of this island of people who are related to him in some distant way.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_02] It's like his grandfather. It's like Alcinous' grandfather, I think. I think.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And her great grandfather. And you see what happened. They weren't always on this island. They were on another island, but there were giants and there was wars. And they're like, fuck this. Let's get out of here. And then they found this island and nobody bothers them except the occasional traveler. But like I don't think anybody has been to war on that island. They don't know what that is except via the bard songs.

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. There's also this tension throughout of Xenia versus like really respecting the threat from outside where it's like, all right, we know that we have to like do all of this stuff to like be hospitable. But at the same time, like only a fool would not be wary of a stranger. And we're going to see how not respecting the potential danger of a completely unknown person can be really, really risky.

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_02] Which ties into this other thing that I was thinking, which is the identity of Odysseus is like his hiding of his identity. He uses it like in a practical manner. Like it's a thing that he has. It's like the one thing he has is he can pretend to not be who he is or reveal who he is whenever he needs to. Yeah.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_00] Convincingly. Yeah.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_00] And I think this is the first baby steps of him starting to reclaim his actual identity as Odysseus because he's pretending to be somebody. Although it's not totally clear what he's pretending to be. It's almost amorphous. He's pretending to be somebody who was on Calypso's island and who really desperately wants to get home. It's a very general form of person.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_00] And then over the course of these two books, you get to him admitting to them that he is Odysseus. And, you know, in some sense and little glimpses, you see Odysseus himself and especially the Odysseus of the Trojan War time or just after. But only tiny little glimpses.

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, it is. It's right. It's almost like he's being reminded himself.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_02] Even though there's been no lack of like, you know, being sad about everything that's happened. It's like to hear somebody else recount all of the events that have happened to you. Yeah. Really actually would be emotional. Yeah.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_00] And the two bard songs, right? The first one, he says that he just sings of this quarrel between Odysseus and Achilles, which maybe we'll talk about that when we get there. But very strange because the real quarrel that kicks off the Iliad is between Achilles and Agamemnon. So I don't know if he's referring to a different one or this bard just kind of got the wires crossed between the muse and him and the story.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_00] But in the second time that he sings about the Trojan War, which is after the games, he asks the bard to sing about Odysseus and the Trojan horse. Yeah. Like he's like claiming it.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_02] Right. There's also this, you know, the ancient notion of a name holding power is like I like that idea that Odysseus, as we'll see in the next episode, too, that you got to be careful with who knows your name.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_00] That's right. There's good things about people knowing your name and there's bad things about people knowing your name.

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_02] I love how the book seven, the title that they chose for this translation is A Magical Kingdom because it gives me Disney vibes. Yeah. All the good and the bad that come along with it. Yeah.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. You get the sense that the people wandering around there are in better shape than the ones that wander around the magic kingdom. But so here's the description of and he's describing the courtyard as he's outside shrouded in mist. Outside the courtyard by the doors, there grows an orchard of four acres hedged around. The trees are tall, luxuriant with fruit, bright colored apples, pears and pomegranate, sweet figs and fertile olives.

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_00] And the crop never runs out or withers in the winter nor in the summer. Fruit goes all year round. The west wind always blows and makes it swell and ripen, mellowing pear on mellowing pear, apple on apple, grapes on grapes and figs. A fertile vineyard, too, is planted there. And then, yeah, there's a lot more of that. And then he says, so the gods had blessed the house of King Adelsinuus with lovely gifts.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah, it's cool. And like just the description of the royal house like being made, you know, silver and gold and the silver and golden dogs at each side. And boys made of gold set on pedestals holding torches on their hand. Makes me excited to see the Nolan movie, you know.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_00] So, yeah. So he goes in and finally Athena, once he's at the knees of Arete, lifts the mist. And there's this moment where it'd be funny to like how would that be filmed? But like that seems very Lynchian to me where everyone just sits there almost like they're on pause or something. Until at some point someone finally says the obvious thing to do. And once that happens, like Alcinoos is a pretty good host, right?

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_00] There's an interesting exchange. Like he says, look, yes, we'll take you home. And once you're there, he says he must endure whatever was spun out when he was born by fate and by the heavy ones, the spinners. Yeah. Do you know what he's talking about exactly there? The spinners, the heavy ones.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_02] I have no idea who the heavy ones are. I was like obviously the fates. Because he says and the spinners. Because I figured it was just like the fates are weaving in there on their like loom or whatever. And that they're spinning thread. And it's them. But spinners here is like uppercase. Like I don't.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_00] The fate and by the heavy ones, the spinners. The way in this translation, I don't know if this is right. It seems like the heavy ones and the spinners could be the same. But fate is different from them. Yeah. But I would have thought fate was the spinners. And I did a brief kind of looking up for this. And I didn't really find anything about what the spinners are. They could be the gods. They could be like spinners of fate. Yeah.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_02] So what's interesting too is like you said, you know, once he's like wrapped his arms around Arte, nobody's answering him. But even here, he's not being answered directly. But Alcinas isn't talking to him. So Ekenes or whatever his name is, Ekenes, speaks up and says like you can't just leave him there. But Alcinas doesn't actually speak to him. He just says, all right, like tells the boy to mix the wine. And then he addresses the lords. And there he says like we'll send him home. But there he will endure it.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_02] And it's actually Arte who is the first to speak to him, which is nice because he addressed her. Yeah. And she ends up being the first one to actually address him back.

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, that's interesting. I didn't notice that. He does raise him with his hands, but then just talks to them. I wonder if this is part of Xenia, though, is that, you know, it's only after they have the feast where he can address the person and ask them any questions. But that's just for asking questions. Like he could still say, welcome to my home and stuff like that. So that is kind of interesting.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And so like Odysseus does like speak to him, even though he wasn't spoken to. And I like that. He's like, don't get it twisted. I'm not a god. Which made me think like, oh, yeah, he's a little shaken up by what the gods might do if he has any hint of hubris in him. So he's like, I'm not a god. Just a.

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. But I also think there's like metaphoric or, you know, this is a glimpse into his psyche where he is mortal. Like, yeah. And this whole speech that you're talking about in reply to Alcinoos not talking to him is him first saying like, yeah, no, no, no, I'm not a god. Not a god, Zeus. But also saying like, I'm hungry. He says the belly is like a whining dog.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_00] It begs and forces one to notice it despite exhaustion or the depth of sorrow. I think that's also pointing to his humanity because the gods don't eat. They don't need to eat. The stomach is always telling you to eat and drink. Like he is of a mortal coil. Like this is he's earthly. You need to drink. And that actually kind of sets their mind at ease, too. So he's saying not only am I human, I'm really human here. Yeah.

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_02] Right. Right. And actually, like that just reminds me at some point, Athena, who had just appeared to him and helped him with the mist and stuff and told him about it. Like she makes him look stronger and taller.

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_02] I don't remember if that's before this. I think that's after. I think it's after.

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_00] It's before the banquet, I think. Yeah. She might have spruced him up a little bit before here, but she does like a big thing there. Yeah.

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_02] I also like how perilous it is that the first thing I don't know if this is what you're going to talk about. Arete says to him is like, all right, let me be the first to talk to you. Where the fuck did you get those clothes? Yeah. Like those are my daughter's clothes. And like I just feel the like, oh, like whatever I say here has to be perfect.

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_00] Yes, exactly. And he really he pulls it off. This is one thing that he never loses. He's always kind of figures out what to say to people in these really delicate situations where you need a ton of tact. So, yeah, he explains that. He explains why this isn't Nausicaa's fault because Alcinous says just one of these things that my daughter did was not correct. She should have brought you here to us herself, escorted by her slave girls.

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_00] And again, Odysseus is like, no, don't blame, you know, don't blame Nausicaa. It was my fault. Like he takes it on himself.

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_02] I was embarrassed. We humans on this earth are apt to be suspicious. Yeah.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_00] Again, like calling attention to him being human. And Alcinous, who I think loves Nausicaa. I stand by that. Yeah, he's not going to be angry. He was probably just virtue signaling to Zeus there. But here's a funny part that kind of plays into what I think about the Phaeacians. He says, what a congenial man you are. I wish you would stay here and marry my own daughter and be my son. I would give you a home and wealth if you would like to stay.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_00] So it's like, that's the only way anyone gets Nausicaa is if they stay on this island.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_02] We need a fresh injection of DNA as our genes are split.

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_00] Exactly. It's getting a little stale here. A little recycled. It's like water in a hot tub. So, yeah, it's a very short book, actually, this one. And then he gets to go to sleep and they're going to take him tomorrow.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, this is what I was going to ask you. So they're like, cool, cool. Tomorrow morning it is. And then you have what seems like a week's worth of activities. I know it's probably...

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_00] I don't quite get the timeline here. We should keep an eye on that. But what I think it actually is is a long day of activities. And then once he decides to tell the story of books 9 through 12, that's going to delay him one other day or two other days. But that's my memory. I wasn't paying attention to that this time.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, I think it actually works in a day. It's just kind of funny because they wake up.

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_02] And then one of the things that he does is have like this beast where Alson is kills 12 sheeps, eight boars, and two slow lumbering cows. And I underlined it and I was like, for breakfast?

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_00] It's kind of like when he goes to bed at the end of book 7, it's like, all right, early flight tomorrow. Uber will be here at 6 a.m. You know, we'll try to get you some coffee. And then Alcinoos is, yeah, he wants to send him off with a bang. And yeah, it describes like, I don't know what you would eat here. Because it does seem hard.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_02] It's like lots of grapes.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Oh, that's true. There's a lot of grapes. Yeah. Bread, wine, grapes. Paleo kind of thing.

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_02] It's Jordan Peterson's. Yeah, that's right. Ijilic land.

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_00] Without the Xanax.

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_02] The Lotus Eaters and the Vaetians combined together.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_00] So, yeah, Alcinoos is almost like, and maybe it's like, you know, if you're a bit of a homebody but you're a king, it's probably fun to have a little company. Totally. So he wants to do it for him as much as he wants to do it for Odysseus, if not entirely.

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_02] Absolutely. And like all the games and stuff. Like they're like, this is just an excuse for us to like have some, like a little mini Olympics.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, yeah. There's a couple of very funny things in there. So he sets up this feast and he gets his favorite poet, you know, the bard to come to because this guy, like the muses love him. Aside from blinding him at some point, they have given him the gift of songs. I wonder if Homer tossed that detail in there. I was wondering that too.

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, but I don't know to what extent it's completely mythic and apocryphal that he was blind. But if it was, that would be a funny thing to do. So here he talks about Achilles and Odysseus' quarrel. They argued bitterly and Agamemnon was glad because the best of the Achaeans were quarreling and that was good for the war or something. And again, it could have been another time where Odysseus and Achilles were fighting that wasn't covered in the Trojan War.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_00] But it is funny to pick if people think this was composed after the Iliad. It could just be a kind of funny, yeah, no, this isn't, we're not getting the whole truth here. And maybe that foreshadows Odysseus' own telling of his own adventures in the next four books. So I don't know, that might be a bit of a stretch. But I think it's a reminder that we're getting this stuff third hand a lot of the time, whenever people start telling a story.

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_00] But this causes Odysseus to tear up, to cry, but he doesn't want to show anybody that he's crying. Because he's a man. Because he's a man, right. And men never cry. Yeah, which is actually a situation I can relate to quite a bit. Like if I'm in a movie theater by myself or something and all of a sudden something very moving comes up or even just something very funny that I just find, like, I'll cry like a baby, but I don't want people to see him.

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_00] Who's this fucking weirdo sitting in a movie theater by himself just weeping, you know? So I felt him there. But Alcines saw him.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. It is interesting that both of the times Alcines is the only one who sees him.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And I don't know if, like, he is sitting next to him, but I don't know if that is in addition supposed to show his sensitivity.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I figured that it was some combination of those things because obviously he's sitting next to him. But also he would be just like kind of checking to see, like, is this guy like our poet? Like a good host also.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_00] Exactly. You know, like everything cool? You need another drink? Can I get you another boar? Yeah. My lords, he says, we have already satisfied our wish. She sees this. He's like, all right, no more songs. He says, we've already satisfied our wish for feasting and the lyre, the feast companion. Now let's go outside and set up contests in every sport. So when our guest goes home, he can tell all his friends that we are the best at boxing, wrestling, high jumping, and sprinting. I don't know why that made me laugh.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_02] Like, just to make sure that they know.

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, that he's going to, like, spread our fame at the fact that we can do all these things. And what's so funny is that after that's proven not to be true, at least with Discus, but Odysseus has been now challenging everybody. We'll talk about how that gets up. But while I have that quote here, so if you go to page 227, this is after he says, all right, who wants me? Who wants a piece of me right now? And Alcinous, everyone gets quiet again.

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_00] And Alcinous says, sir, you have expressed with fine good manners your wish to show your talents and your anger at the man who stood up in this arena and mocked you as no one who understands how to speak properly would ever do. Now listen carefully. So you may tell your own fine friends at home when you are feasting beside your wife and children and remember our skill and all the deeds we have accomplished from our forefathers time until now. We are not brilliant at wrestling or boxing, but we are quick at sprinting and with ships we are the best.

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_00] We love the feast, the lyre, dancing and varied clothes, hot baths and bed. So like just like, you know, an hour earlier he was saying, you're going to tell everyone we're the best at wrestling, boxing and sprinting and all these games. And now he's like, no, you know, we're not that, we're not that good at wrestling or boxing. The only reason he says about the sprinting was that was the one event that Odysseus says, I don't think I can compete right now in that because my legs are too tired.

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_00] So he could still kind of maintain this illusion that they're actually really good at sprinting. It's really funny because like it just shows like they don't know what a really great wrestler or discus thrower or spear thrower is because they don't compete in intramural sports is only, you know, on this island, you know, or maybe like division three or something like that. They don't know what it's like to actually be in the SEC and play like the actual best

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_00] people at these things. And you'll never know until you test yourself. Yeah. And so Alcinoos has to kind of retract his claims about being the best at all these sports.

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_02] Well, especially since they had come out the gate so hardcore with their challenges. Talking a lot of shit. A lot of shit. Without the game to back it up. Writing checks their ass couldn't catch.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. So what happens is they do all these sports among themselves. And then Laodimus, who is the son of Alcinoos, says, you know, like it might be good for him to try his luck at these sports. And I don't think he's being a dick here. No. But he says, he says, come here. Now you, sir, you should try our games as well. If you know any sports, it seems you would. Nothing can be more glorious for a man in a whole lifetime than what he achieves with hands and feet.

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_00] Which is very funny to say to Odysseus.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. It's also very funny to read as an academic.

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. But like, you know, you're talking to Odysseus here. Yeah. And you're saying, oh, like nothing could be more glorious than if you, you know, beat us in 200 yard dash.

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, totally. And later on, it's like he drives the point home. I don't know if he's trying to or not by being like, you know how I know I'm good at archery is I would hit the motherfuckers like who are charging at me. Like, you know. Oh, Odysseus does. Yeah. Odysseus. Yeah. He's being war tested. It makes you a little bit better maybe at wrestling and at archery.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_00] Yes, exactly. So Odysseus kind of politely refuses. And then this guy, Euryalias, just starts talking too much shit for even Odysseus in his reduced state to take. He says, stranger, I suppose you must be ignorant of all athletics. I know you're a type. The captain of a crew of merchant sailors. You roam around at sea and only care about your freight and cargo keeping close watch on your ill-gotten gains. You are no athlete.

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_00] And then that's what makes Odysseus turn into like Popeye. Yeah. Throw the discus.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_02] He grabbed the heaviest one.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_00] And now it's, who wants me? I'll take anybody. Boxing, wrestling, except Laodimus because he's always so tactful. He's my host. I would never do that. But any of you other like inbred motherfuckers. Totally. Yeah.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_02] I love it when he's talking to you. He's like, you, you look impressive and a god couldn't improve your body, but your mind is crippled.

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. To Euryalias. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_02] But it's also nice of him to not like take on Laodimus as a way to help them save faith.

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_00] So do you think this is a misstep on his part? Should he had just swallowed that, you know, and let Laodimus talk to him like that? Because once he does that, now it's clear, oh, this is a real dude. And then when you're hearing the song about Odysseus, like Alcino says, after that, it says, look, I want like no bullshit. Like, who are you? What is your name? Where are you going?

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_00] Like, we can't take you somewhere if we don't know where you're going. And, you know, that's going to lead him to tell this story, which is good for us. But if his goal was to just get home as fast as possible.

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess it's a good question. I guess so. But it's also just part of like, it's who he is.

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_02] And you just can't like, it's like, you cannot expect him not to respond to that. That's right. And that's part of his revealing of who he is. That's right. And like, that's what legends are made of, you know, had he never done it, they would have just never known the story. Like, it brings everybody like some good just tales to tell about the time strong Odysseus came.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. No, I think that's right. You can't be Odysseus and eat shit from. Yeah. Or whatever his name was.

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_02] He also shouldn't have gone to fight in the Trojan War. Right.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_00] Right. And as we'll see, there's a couple of things he probably shouldn't have done with the Cyclops. So, yeah. And this is part of it. But through it all, he does retain like his tact.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. It's great because he just has to show, you got to show a little bit of like, don't push me.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_02] You know, he's like, gentleman the whole time knows exactly how to behave when he needs to. But, like, just don't push me too far or else who knows? Like, again, you could be the kind of island that would beat you and leave you for dead like the next morning.

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_00] Right. So, they have to respect him. But beyond that, he needs to tread these minefields with as much tact and delicacy as he can. I love, he says, we love the feast, the lyre, dancing in varied clothes, hot baths and bed. Yeah. Alcinous says. Which I love all those things too, maybe except dancing in varied clothes. But, like, it's not the most, like, glorifying thing.

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_00] It's like, yeah, we're really good at dancing and wearing pretty clothes and taking nice hot baths and going to sleep.

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_02] And a cup of herbal tea when I'm feeling cold. Yeah, exactly.

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_00] Ah, chamomile right before bed, after the bath. Just so perfect. Perfect. And then, so the first song the bard sings is a kind of funny story about a cuckolding of Hephaestus by Ares with Hephaestus' wife, Aphrodite. Like, I don't know how that match got made, but it was destined to have some ups and downs for sure. But, yeah, I don't know.

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_00] Did you think, what did you think of this story?

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_02] Well, so I was like, okay, what's going on here? Because you could have, like, a banal answer. Like, well, that's just part of the telling of the story. Like, there's just, you know, the bard is telling. It just happens to be telling another story. So let's quickly tell that one. But I also wondered whether there was, like, a little bit of shit. I haven't seen my wife in 10 years. Who knows what she's doing? That's, like, going to get at him. Right.

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_00] I think, yeah, it's another one of these. Like, if I'm ever tempted to read this, like, psychically. Like, really, this is just an exploration of Odysseus' psyche. There's so many little blips of your wife might be fucking someone else now. Yeah. Like, all the Agamemnon stuff and then this thing.

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And the fear that, you know, Hephaestus is the crippled god, which I didn't know. Yeah. But, like, the fear that he's going to come back crippled either physically or mentally or both and not be able to satisfy his wife in, you know, many ways.

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And the fact that Hephaestus devises a clever scheme to capture them.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_02] That's a bit of foreshadowing, too. Yeah.

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_00] But, you know, like, he's still getting made fun of. I love, like, Hermes and Apollo. I'd be like, I'd get trapped up in chains if I could bang Aphrodite. And then he should see them, like, high-fiving.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, totally. I'd want all you guys to watch them. And Hephaestus is like, guys, come on.

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_00] It is so funny the way they, like, they can sometimes just be like a family, you know, like with an older and a younger brother, like a stepchild.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_02] I would be bound, a brother Apollo Lertor tree. If only I would be bound three times as tight or more and let you gods and all your wives look on if only I could sleep. Yeah.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_00] I wonder if in his heart of hearts he wants that. Like, he wants a bunch of lawyers.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_03] I would totally let you watch.

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_00] You dirty dog, Apollo.

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_02] So why is Poseidon? I don't know the relationship with these gods. Yeah. Like, why is he like, no, no, no. Let him, let Ares go. Yeah, no, no. I'll take the hit if I need to.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_00] It's not like Ares. Poseidon is related to Ares, but I think he's his uncle or something. Yeah. So I don't know why. Like, he's the only one who's not laughing and he kind of guaranteed cosigns whatever debt now Ares has to pay to Hephaestus. But yeah, I think it's supposed to be a happy ending kind of comic story. But yeah, I don't know why Poseidon is like that. I had that same question.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Poseidon is like if there's one bad guy of this book. It's Poseidon. So it makes me wonder.

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And he's often a fairly humorless god who's kind of seething with resentment against somebody most of the time. Okay. So then Odysseus asks if he can sing about, or was that already? Was that first?

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_02] That was first.

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_00] Okay. Yeah.

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, no, no, no. Wait, no. I think you're right. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's when he gives Demodocus, he sends him over the meat.

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_00] That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So he sends him over the meat.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_02] This is after, just for the listeners. Like this is, he gets the gifts from Erete. They pack the chest in with all the gifts from all the lords.

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And even the guy who is talking shit to him gives him a sword. Yeah, exactly.

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_02] You're not so bad after all, guy.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_00] And he's just like, if I was Odysseus, I could say, yeah, I guess you have no real need for a sword. Not like you're going to actually get out there and fight. But he doesn't because he's a gracious winner. And then Nausicaa, I always love the image of Nausicaa just standing as he has just been bathed. And he comes out and she's divinely beautiful beside a pillar that held the palace roof. She says, goodbye then, stranger.

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_00] But remember me when you reach home because you owe your life to me. I helped you first. It's kind of a sliding doors moment. Like, should I just stay here, you know?

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_02] It really is out of a movie.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_00] And, you know, I also think it's another of these cases where they're kind of desperate to be told about the Theacians. You know, like Alcino is constantly saying, tell them about how good we are at these sports. Okay, not the sports, but the ships. Can't deny that. And she wants to be known as the person who helped Odysseus first. So I think they are, like, a little insecure about their legacy as a people.

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, yeah. I don't know that you'll get this vibe because you're not a Star Trek watcher. But this whole two books, like, has this vibe of when in Star Trek, the old one and the newer one, when they would go visit a planet and, like, there were these, like, insular planets that wouldn't talk to anybody else. And they were so excited to see the new guys, like, you know. But there was always some bad shit that happened. So I think that's why I was, like, waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_00] Well, I mean, between the Phaecian Island and then the islands that we hear about in the next two books, like, it is like going to other planets. Yeah, totally. And, like, I'm sure a lot of those shows and a lot of science fiction are borrowed.

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, Star Trek has to. Yeah. I mean, to the point where they actually had, like, in the old one, like, the actual Greek gods. Like an island with the actual Greek gods.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, really? Yeah. That would be a fun bonus episode on that. So now he sends over, yeah, a bottle of Cristal and says, tell the story of. Benny Blanco sends this with his dad. Yeah. There is no episode that you can't drop a Benny Blanco from the Bronx.

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_02] It's only happened four times, but I'm glad you remember each time.

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I think it's happened considerably more. I like it, so I'm not saying this as a criticism.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_03] It is increasingly obscure as a reference.

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_00] Well, I mentioned Heathers, so.

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, that's true. But yeah, this is, like, a nice little moment where he's, like, you might think that he would be, like, not that keen on Demodocus because it made him cry last time and he doesn't want his story told. But now he's, like, like you were saying at the beginning, like, he's slowly embracing his identity.

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, he's trying to. And he needs to because he has to be Odysseus if he's going to get home. Yeah. So as he's describing the adventure and specifically the Trojan horse adventure, there's this passage where Odysseus starts crying, sobbing. He says, Odysseus was melting into tears. His cheeks were wet with weeping. As a woman weeps, as she falls to wrap her arms around her husband, fallen, fighting for his home and children.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_00] She is watching as he gasps and dies. She shrieks a clear high wail, collapsing upon his course. The men are right behind. They hit her shoulders with their spear and lead her to slavery, hard labor, and a life of pain. Her face is marked with despair. In that same desperate way, Odysseus was crying.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_03] That is the most specific metaphor.

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, a lot of these are like that. They are, like, hugely specific. And because of that, like, studied to no end as to why this as a metaphor or simile for what Odysseus is experiencing here, I think is a really interesting question with this one.

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I don't know. When I read it, I was like, why are they spending this, like, an entire paragraph to make it, like, essentially, like, a simile or metaphor?

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_00] Well, that's throughout the text. I pointed out a couple in earlier episodes. Yeah. Maybe this one just felt longer. They're just as long here. That's like a famous Homeric simile thing. That's just what he does. But the question is, why this one to describe Odysseus?

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_02] I, for me, at least, it seemed like, well, there's only a few ways that you can really capture a loss that is as strong as the loss that Odysseus has had. And it reminds me in some ways of, like, in the Old Testament or in the Real Testament, as you guys call it, they're sometimes used, like, the wailing, like, and then it'll say a woman who's, like, crying out for her children, but they don't answer.

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_02] The pain of that kind of a loss is only known by, like, a few cursed people, right? And that kind of pain.

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. So maybe just getting at the absolute, yeah, hollowed out desperateness of these tears.

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_02] And the loss of his friends, you know, like, everybody that he's loved and, like, potentially might even be losing his wife. He doesn't know it. It's loss that is best. It's described well by our understanding of what that woman must be feeling like. But it's also specifically, like, the feature of losing your love, the loved ones that you have. Yeah.

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Your home, your loved ones. But then also this idea of the man being behind her, hitting her shoulders and spears, leading her to slavery, hard labor, and the life suggests that it's not just weeping for something that you've lost. It's weeping for what you have in front of you, too. Right. And that is a life of abuse, being on the wrong side of abuse and slavery.

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_00] So I don't know if that's like he's thinking the gods, they have more in store for me.

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_02] You're right, because there is the kind of despair over things that have happened, and there's the kind of despair over not thinking you have a future. And you're right. I think he is worried about both of them at this point.

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Exactly. These other people really are not very observant, given that he's crying that way. Only Osinuas notices.

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_02] They're too busy watching each other dance.

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, exactly. Ooh, that's a nice little outfit.

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_02] Tap! That's a tapping thing.

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_00] But then because of this, again, so it was first because of the good feats and then because of how he was crying at this point. He says, OK, let's end this. But stranger, answer all my questions clearly not with evasion. Frankness would be best. He sounds like a mafia boss there. What did your parents name you? With what name are you known to your people? Surely no one in all the world is nameless.

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_00] Poor are nobles since parents give a name to every child at birth. And I think that's like, given that he belabors that point a bit, I also think that's like, you can't go on in this, you know, Schrodinger's I exist, I don't exist state. Like, you have to claim a name. You have to claim your humanity. You have to claim your country, your people, your city, all of it. And then we can take you back. And actually, it just ends with him basically saying that.

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_02] Did you lose somebody at Troy? Like the most poignant sort of question that you could end his grief with. Like, did you lose someone? Yeah, motherfucker. Everyone. Like, literally everyone.

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, although he says, did you lose somebody at Troy? A man from your wife's family, perhaps her father or brother. Tides of marriage are the closest after bonds of blood. Or perhaps you lost the friend who knew you best of all. A friend can be as close as any brother.

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And he's like, if only you knew. And you're about to find out. Ending with that, without even saying, did you fight at Troy?

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_02] Like, it's, I think, an extra hard question to hear. Because not even they who have heard from, like, the inspiration of the bard from the gods. Not even they would think that there would be a survivor.

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_02] Of Troy. Yeah. You know?

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_00] That's right. A, they don't even know anybody who, like, knew someone who was lost at Troy. Right. So that would be a special thing. Oh, this guy actually knows someone who went to the war. But then, yeah, like you're saying, like, it's, like, inconceivable that they could be talking to one of these people. They're such legends at this point.

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_02] Totally. Imagine if somebody was like, why are you sad about 9-11? Did you know somebody in the towers? And you're like, no, I was, like, there. I was, like, one of the people in the tower. So then finally, we're going to get to what I think the Odysseus is about.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_00] The Odyssey is about, yeah.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, the Odyssey is about.

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. It is really true that I think when people who haven't read it or haven't read it since high school, they think of books 9 through 12. And very little else. Yeah. All right. Any final thoughts about these two books and our Phaeitian adventure is winding up?

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_02] No, I'll just say what I've been saying every time, which is, like, yeah, get to the end. And I'm like, can't wait to read what happens next. Like, it's good. Yeah.

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_00] All right. Well, tune in next time and we will see what happens next together. Join us next time on The Lotus Eaters.

[00:44:48] The Lotus Eaters. We'll be right back.